Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[nancy]

Vote: TriangleShark


Sharks are scary and I'd prefer to take out that menace sooner rather than later.

[nancy]

My first post was a decoy. Played right into my hands.

VOTE: Vote: JaeReed

[nancy]

Oh. Now I see. Lol. VOTE: JaeReed

Third time's the charm.

[nancy]

EccentricLemon seems pretty wishywashy to me. Switching votes for dubious reasons and suspicious of people called "Agent"? Clear scumtell. Serious.

[nancy]

Also, saying hello to people as first post? Obvious survival tactics.

[nancy]

My first post was a decoy. Played right into my hands.

VOTE: Vote: JaeReed

Why me instead of tojam, who also told you how to vote correctly?

If I told you that, I'd have to kill you.

[nancy]

I would never.

[nancy]

- That was in response to #30.

[nancy]

@Jae I assume you're referring to me with "forced jokes". I was attempting to start the thread off in a light-hearted manner, unaware that the atmosphere on scum was so severe. I don't agree with your nulltown reading of toejam. Your read only applies if everyone on mafia has the same personality or playstyle.

@toejam I don't see that as a TR. Saying you've read him a Town for starting discussion seems to me like the start of buddying up, which I would read as scum (I was already gutreading you as scum), and which also makes me think that he is Town. Unless you counted on someone making that analysis, in which case he could just as well be your partner, which takes him back to a null read.

[nancy]

Ugh. I'm sorry Jae I used the wrong pronoun.

[nancy]

@Jae I assume you're referring to me with "forced jokes". I was attempting to start the thread off in a light-hearted manner, unaware that the atmosphere on scum was so severe. I don't agree with your nulltown reading of toejam. Your read only applies if everyone on mafia has the same personality or playstyle.

@toejam I don't see that as a TR. Saying you've read him a Town for starting discussion seems to me like the start of buddying up, which I would read as scum (I was already gutreading you as scum), and which also makes me think that he is Town. Unless you counted on someone making that analysis, in which case he could just as well be your partner, which takes him back to a null read.

This feels overdefensive and I dislike the attempt to break down townreads here.

That said, I like the thought about buddying because that did cross my mind too.

To clarify: Was making a general statement about forced jokes, not really commenting on anyone in this game.

Why were you gutreading tojam as scum? Gut reads tend to come from somewhere, so it's best if you explore why you had that feeling and try to articulate that so that others might be able to see it too. What did you dislike about his posting prior to that post?

What's your experience with mafia?

Which part reads overdefensively? I'm operating under the assumption that we should try to break down any read, whether town, scum, or null, and that if a read is good it'll stand up to scrutiny by others. Given those two assumptions, am not sure I understand why you'd dislike an attempt to dissect reads and provide discussion material, unless you thought my attempt was ill-reasoned, in which case I'd be interested to hear about which parts were ill-reasoned.

I have no idea why I'm gutreading toejam as scum, but it came with his first two posts, #7 & #9.

Now I've realized there may be a terminology issue here. Are you using "dislike" as equivalent to "read as scum"?

My experience with forum mafia - I've modded 1 mafia and participated in 1 mafia on another non-mafia forum (this activity is ongoing). I've also read Vi's Jailbreak Mini and a small percentage of the material on mafiascum wiki, but neither of those would really count as "experience". Non-forum mafia - I played the party game as a child, and I joined up on EM 2-3 months ago. (I recognize kentofan from there, heh.)

[nancy]

Welcome, Titus!

Awesome, thanks for that feedback Lion.

Probably. That's the way most people seem to use it here.

My question was directed towards Jae, thank you though.

[nancy]

Welcome, bowdown!

Mmmm super interesting, I'm loving this already.

@Jae Thanks for clearing that word usage up. My vote was RNG. Votes are meaningless at this point, no?

@Jae & bowdown, I've got nothing on that gutread right now, sorry to disappoint.

[nancy]

Also it feels super quiet. I know there's two weeks for each day but I wasn't expecting it to be this slow-paced.

Maybe you should try and instigate something then? There's plenty of material to go on. 9 for instance, where toejam seems to me to insinuate that town should be more inclined to out their roles than scum would - isn't it actually the opposite? Or the fact that Titus and Jae are apparently no voting. Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars. Is that a blending tactic or are they just unable to find a satisfactory image for themselves? Or did they not see 19, and does that mean that they have been skimming - not a particularly townie thing to do? Does AgentSparkle's humorless response to my jokes mean that he didn't read it carefully? He displays a sense of humor in 10 and yet failed to detect it in my 21 and 22, does that further suggest that he skimmed? Maybe others can comment on whether or not the joke is obvious enough.

Off I go to read some theory about D1 RL.

[nancy]

She seems like she knows what she's doing.

Oh I assure you, I have no idea!

[nancy]

@Jae and Lion I also may have just inadvertently answered your question about my gutread with 86.

[nancy]

Are you voting for EccentricLemon or GuiltyLion?

Would you mind please giving reasons other than "Gut"? Your previous posts make no mention of either Lemon or Lion that I can see.

[nancy]

Color me intrigued.

[nancy]

She did justify it by saying "votes are meaningless at this stage" - which I disagree with. I find it curious that she is now pressing Titus for vote rationale beyond gut - Nancy why is it okay for you to have had a scumread on tojam due to gut but Titus can't?

I would hardly describe 94 as pressing. You're also putting words into my mouth, as I haven't said that it was okay for me to have a gutread with no explanation. I tried to find one and couldn't, although one did end up coming later. Whether or not I should reveal a potentially useless piece of information that may or may not be influencing my read is debateable, I'm sure, but in the interests of learning I'm going to be tending towards full discolure throughout this game. The IC and SEs here have already been great in providing insight and perspective.

'm pinged by Titus for the second time entering the thread and not posting anything of much worth.

I found the content of her posts pretty helpful and interesting, so I don't understand this comment.

I read #9 as "hey noobs, don't post right away that you are excited you got an awesome role" from a more experienced player.

You seem to be discarding the opportunity to maybe learn something from him about why he emphasized "regardless of its towniness".

I don't really care that Titus and Jar aren't voting yet

You seem to be discarding the opportunity to maybe learn something from them about why they are no voting and potentially build up your reads for future scumhunting. This lack of caring is especially weird if you dislike Jae's other behavior.

I care that Titus's posts have been crappier than Jae's, while Jae has a strangely knowledgeable tone (scummy) but is also the IC and is supposed to play the knowledgeable role.

I don't understand. How is it strange for an IC to have a knowledgeable tone? Could you please explain this more, it seems very muddy to me. The only thing I find strange about Jae so far is their preoccupation with my vote.

[nancy]

Somewhat. The issue is when someone gets a scumread they should be voting for said scumread, not parked on a null.

Even when they have no sound backing for their gutread and know it? I would've thought this was more a tell of personality than anything - how heavily do I follow my gut / how heavily do I rely on reason/logic? I've also seen town players who have scumreads but don't vote on them. The strategy of voting seems to be more complex than simply voting with your strongest (or only) scumread, especially at the early stages of the Day. Would you mind commenting on this?

[nancy]

'Knowledgeability' is the correct nominal form you were looking for, but 'knowledge' alone fits equally well in the sentence.

Thanks for the reply. You're misinterpreting my response in both cases. If I post a gutread, like any read, I expect it to be questioned. I'm sure Titus expected the same.

[nancy]

To elaborate, in a normal game I would have voted you for this, because it has two flags I like to look for:
A) Seemingly too much knowledge on someone's alignment when there's little to go off.
B) Stated scumread on one person while voting for someone else.

Those combined can sometimes be partner tells. That said, pre-flip associations can be bad if you get too caught up in them. It's good at times to note them, poke at them a bit, then make a decision as to whether you believe those people are genuinely trying to gamesolve or just going through the motions, and whether they're evaluating each other in a genuine manner or not.

All that said, it's harder to tell sometimes with newbs because they can make genuine mistakes like misunderstanding when RVS has stopped and such, given there's such a wide range of newbies with different experiences in mafia (some pure newb, others with an extensive background on other sites).

Interesting, so it's a flag for you because you're reading it as a potential "objective mafia" being overly sensitive to scumtells? Tojam still hasn't addressed the question, though.

As I mentioned earlier, I didn't vote him because the gutread is very weak. Is that not viable behavior? I'm beginning to be bothered by his lurking, but even that wouldn't qualify for a vote in my mind. Care to comment tojam?

Jae, are you saying that when RVS ends we should NV? I'd also like to hear the answer to bowdown's question.

To respond to your question about Titus' naked vote, I take it as reaction testing. EccentricLemon has been awfully quiet, which doesn't seem like a good thing when you're at L-2. But it wouldn't only be testing the reaction of EccentricLemon. I have no idea how other SEs would've reacted in a non-newbie game, but no one seems to have grilled her about it, found it scummy, or turned up the heat further on Lemon. Now that Lemon is back to L-3 I'm comfortable saying that if someone else had voted Lemon to take him to L-1 I would've FOS'd that person immediately because a) Lemon is reading more like a Town unable to give off good towntells than scum, and b) at L-1 you're almost forcing Lemon to out, which benefis only the Mafia. Appropriate townie reaction at that point would presumably be to promptly unvote in order to remove that threat, even if a hammer is unlikely at that point (hammering would be very scummy).

[nancy]

her*

[nancy]

I'm also waiting on a reply from tojam on any of the questions I've raised since page 2 about his behavior.

[nancy]

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I'm probably butting in since you directed this at GL, but I totally missed this - where was the Freudian slip!?! I re-read your posts and can't find it!

[nancy]

Also, I doubt I'm the first person to delay moving their vote. It was Jae's comment that reminded me to move it, 81 was my reasoning.

I read you as scum for a different reason which you haven't cared to address (not even briefly, to point out the flaw in it as a more experienced player), the gutread was parenthetical and is a tiny fraction of my overall content so far. So I dislike that justification. If you're voting for me simply for a parenthetical gutread, why haven't you voted bowdown? There's even less justification in "feels forced" than in "seems like he may have misrepresented something". Because the read was against you? (See 65 below.)

- Finally, I'm pinged by TriangleShark's entrance - the add on "Because everyone deserves some love" feels forced.

81 - noobscum would pick someone to apply pressure to before the game, like a plan of action as if mafia has a strict order.

I'm a noob, I've recently been scum, and I didn't do this. I'm pointing this out because your arguments don't seem to have depth, or you haven't fully elaborated them yet. E.g., you still haven't explained why a Mafia wouldn't want to drum up conversation in order to seem towny.

Why don't you care about Titus' posts? I don't feel like there's been much explanation about anything from you. Maybe it should be obvious and I'm just not seeing it because I'm a noob? Either way, I'd love to hear about your reasons from you, rather than just assuming what they are. I'm not sure how to get reads otherwise!

Further, I think he may have slipped knowledge of town!Lemons here:

Seeing who jumps and doesn't jump on the lemon wagon and their reasons for doing so could be illuminating. Extreme case is that two others quickly jump on Lemon with poor reasons - d2 we look strongly at them.

I've also been assuming that EL is Town based on my read of him, so I feel like this could just be newbishness as easily as it could be a slip. It could even be a slip by you for pointing out that it could be a slip by him, couldn't it?


My reads:
Tojam - I dislike the consistent lack of explanations, so:

slightly scummy, a weak read

Titus - some weird behavior, I don't know how to read it, but intuition suggests she'd not behave this way as maf, so:

townie, a weak read

EL - inconsistent and defensive, but seems newbish more than anything, so:

townie, a weak read

Jae - seemed to hijack Titus' naked vote thing, if the purpose of the vote was to test newbscum (?) then this could be Jae defusing it, so, if true:

scummy, a weak read

*
bowdown - hasn't addressed 125, so:

slightly scummy, a weak read

GL - hasn't hestitated to point out people's mistakes, which is probably:

nulltown

Sparkles - I don't have a read
Triangle - I don't have a read

*This read on Jae is further complicated by the fact that it's really hard to tell whether or not they were in teacher mode or player mode with the responses to Titus. I'd hate to read it as scummy when all they were doing was trying to help us newbs.

[nancy]

- bowdown posted twice while I was writing..

[nancy]

Lol.

[nancy]

How is lemon reading like town unable to towntell to you?
Do you find taking someone to L-1 to be inherently scummy?
Do you believe any person who hammers or threatens to hammer early in the game is likely to be scum for it?

- Because I think the apparent scumminess of her behavior is better explained by her being new. She looks like she's trying to be a good townie and doing a poor job of it, rather than like she's trying to masquerade as a townie and doing a poor job of it. Is that a bad reason for that read? Should we lynch someone who behaves scummy and if they're Town let that be a lesson to them?
- Not inherently, but when there isn't a strong scum read on the player (I think some of the votes were RV also?) then it's suspicious?
- Only in this situation, but it would depend on how she flipped. If Townie, scummy, if Mafia, not. How prevalent is bussing on mafiascum? I can't stand it personally but I don't exactly have a finger on the meta here

[nancy]

Welcome, revan!! Good luck trying to parse all my newb ass posts!

[nancy]

How is lemon reading like town unable to towntell to you?
Do you find taking someone to L-1 to be inherently scummy?
Do you believe any person who hammers or threatens to hammer early in the game is likely to be scum for it?

- Because I think the apparent scumminess of her behavior is better explained by her being new. She looks like she's trying to be a good townie and doing a poor job of it, rather than like she's trying to masquerade as a townie and doing a poor job of it. Is that a bad reason for that read? Should we lynch someone who behaves scummy and if they're Town let that be a lesson to them?
- Not inherently, but when there isn't a strong scum read on the player (I think some of the votes were RV also?) then it's suspicious?
- Only in this situation, but it would depend on how she flipped. If Townie, scummy, if Mafia, not. How prevalent is bussing on mafiascum? I can't stand it personally but I don't exactly have a finger on the meta here

- Always aim to win. If you think someone is town and you're town then it's not in your best interest to lynch them. I don't believe it's a bad reason but can you show me some examples of where you believe she's showing newbtown over newbscum?
- I know many absolutely love flashwagons to L-1 in RVS. Anti-town does not necessarily mean scum (although it quite often can!) so it's better to look at the motivation for such an action. For instance, are they openly encouraging a hammer so as to place pressure on the person who got wagoned? Are they being passive about it and making a show of telling people not to hammer and to wait for reactions? Both instances can be personality tells, but I've found the ones more likely to encourage a hammer (which you'd see as anti-town because the person could just claim and they might be a PR, or someone might actually use that as an excuse to hammer without a claim) tend to be town wanting to force the game out of RVS by having the person being wagoned start scumhunting off their wagon as soon as possible, where the ones making a big show about being pro-town are negating some of the pressure the person being wagoned would feel, and might actually be scum.
- Some players will hard bus often, others (Thor comes to mind) will never bus. I think the majority like to switch it up to be unpredictable. As far as whether scum or town are more or less likely to hammer depending on the person's alignment...I don't *think* there's any hard and fast rule to it? Granted, VCA isn't exactly my specialty and there *is* someone here for whom it is... I have performance anxiety mentioning any of it around Titus for that reason =P She might have more solid opinions on that than me.

I can say... Generally in a newbie as scum you don't want to bus, and especially so early on. It's 7 town vs 2 scum, and town are guaranteed in any setup to have at least one PR. Not to mention it draws the win out until later in the game, so you have to spend more time dodging people re-evaluating you and PRs potentially clearing other townies or checking you.

The issue with my read is that it's so subjective. Depending on how I choose to interpret it, I'm sure I could take nearly any of her posts to be either newbscum or newbtown. Reading her as Town feels like giving her the benefit of the doubt and at times second-guessing myself. Reading her as scum feels like I'm being overly critical. Either way I read her, I often feel like I'm justifying my read by assuming that it's true, which sucks super much.

I see you have missed me, but I guess that fact that no one else voted for me is a good sign.

I still stand by my vote since I have not received any new information about GuiltyLion and no other posts have convinced me about the scumminess of any other player.

Newbscum, because it doesn't seem towny to be ready/able to be convinced of someone's guilt without even being out of RV. The first line could also be hinting at this - the fear that people could somehow inherently know that she was scum and bw her to death. Newbtown, because she is expressing concern about scumhunting (even if she isn't actively doing anything about it yet) and isn't losing her cool about getting votes.

Most of the people in this game are newbies, and I think some of you are reading too far into everything. Then again, I tend to be the kind that likes to wait a while before making any decisions and am a newbie myself.

I don't think nancy is consciously attempting to prove her innocence and at this point, I lean toward the fact that she's just more outspoken and trying to incite conversation. Personally, I don't think what she's said is enough to incriminate her.
However, at this stage of the game, everyone is suspicious and outspoken people tend to draw more suspicion. Which is to say while I don't believe nancy is attempting to divert attention, I'm not completely certain of her innocence as well.

I voted for GuiltyLion hoping to receive some information from him or other players discussing him but I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a lot of debate going on about him. Also as soon as people started voting for him, he hasn't posted much. Which seems a little shifty to me, like he's lying low and letting it blow over. I mean, I don't know his personal life or playing style so I might be wrong.

The fact that Jae and AgentSparkles haven't voted against nancy and are trying to get information instead of straight up voting for her kind of tips me toward assuming they are probably town. However, Jae is a seasoned player and that makes me trust them less.

Again, this is only my speculation from what I've seen.

Newbscum, because she looks like she's trying to subtly dissuade people from reading her as scum (see how I'm assuming scum here in order to make the read?), because of the wording "prove her innocence" (is that a slip or an example of reading scum because assuming scum?), because of her readiness to make townreads on little evidence, and because her automatic stance is distrust (towards Jae). Newbtown, because she looks like she's trying to direct people's arguments away from over-analysis and towards more useful things and is at least making an attempt at scumhunting.

If a person gets voted up, it's more likely people are going to discuss them. My vote wasn't a hammer or anything. That was my logic on what would happen. But since that didn't happen and doesn't seem like it's going to happen, UNVOTE: GuiltyLion. I was just stating my purpose and my suspicions so that people can use them to draw conclusions, I'm not actually accusing anyone.

Newbscum, because wishy-washy, defensive, seemingly inconsistent (see 73), and trying to stay on people's good sides and not attract attention. Newbtown, because according to her stated logic her behavior does make sense, and her behavior is at least consistent in terms of being afraid of doing anything wrong.

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and might have even hurt me down the road.

I meant to add in #68 that I've been pressed for time, so I may not have read each post as carefully as I hoped to.

I said I'm not trying to accuse anyone. I unvoted because there wasn't any reason to keep my vote there. I personally don't see any point to random voting unless it generates discussion, which I understand is why it's encouraged. I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Newbscum, because inconsistent in her reads, bad scumhunting, and trying to deflect attention. Newbtown, because her scumminess is explainable by a fear to do anything wrong and general clumsiness, which is consistent. (And yet again, giving her the benefit of the doubt.)

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and

might have even hurt me down the road

.

What do you mean by this? Why did you say it?

I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Why not be accusatory?

Well keeping my vote for GuiltyLion if I was trying not to be belligerent would have been a bad move because it would seem like I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Which is not what I'm going for. I'm not sure if I'm articulating what I'm trying to say correctly. I'll try to elaborate if my explanations don't make any sense.
We all know that at this point, everyone's basically out for themselves so there's no harm I think in pointing out that I did it in self-preservation.

I don't want to be accusatory because a mistake will likely make me seem scummier. If my aggressive actions get him hanged and he turns out to be town, people are going to come after me because I'm already suspicious. I mean, it seems like everything I say is making me more and more suspicious anyway.
Also I'm a newbie and I'm still learning how the game works and I don't want to try anything too (emphasis on the too) risky until I've had some experience. I'm seeing that posting what I said that early was a bad idea (?).

@GL, I've never been a fan of p.1, baseless gut, having opinions prior to the game is noobscummy to me.

I never said anything that would allude to me having opinions prior to the game. At least I don't believe so. Attack me all you want for that, but I think I made it pretty clear that all of my observations are pretty nebulous but have at least some sort of basis in what people have said.

Newbscum, because the comment on bussing GL has no context that I can see, because it potentially displays a knowledge of GL's alignment (worried about being on a bw against a townie or worried about bussing a partner?), has an exaggerated sense of how suspicious she is. Newbtown because again, her behavior is consistent with being afraid of doing something wrong, of being in the spotlight when she's not sure what to do, because her scumminess is still explainable as her just being very clumsy.

Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars.

I haven't been able to find a good image, before anyone starts interrogating me. I tend to be very picky with stuff like avatars. If I were trying to blend in, I just wouldn't post and hope people forgot about me.

I think nancy is doing the same thing I am in trying to be cautious--it IS the first day--but still stirring up conversation. She hasn't changed her vote for a bit, so I take that she isn't actively accusing anyone but more passively pointing out things she finds suspicious.
However, she has some experience with forum mafia, even if it is only a bit, and I wouldn't precisely consider her a newbie. She seems like she knows what she's doing.

My experience with forum mafia - I've modded 1 mafia and participated in 1 mafia on another non-mafia forum (this activity is ongoing). I've also read Vi's Jailbreak Mini and a small percentage of the material on mafiascum wiki, but neither of those would really count as "experience". Non-forum mafia - I played the party game as a child, and I joined up on EM 2-3 months ago. (I recognize kentofan from there, heh.)

In all, someone did say that the more aggressive Town is, the more successful they're going to be (sorry, can't find it in the thread) and I think that's what she's going for.

I'd also like to point out that tojam did accuse me pretty harshly about baseless gut accusing and having opinions prior to the game, both of which I don't think I am guilty of. Could be a sign of skimming or just me being an idiot again.

Newbscum, because wishy-washy, because she reacted fearfully to my baseless avatar comment, again suggesting that she may be oversensitive to her own suspiciousness, because she appears concerned about how she should be blending in and has potentially lied in saying that she would blend in by lurking, and because she is again primarily trying to deflect attention away from herself (comments about me and it being D1). Newbtown, because her behavior is consistent in terms of being motivated by fear, and is still explainable as just clumsiness/newbishness.

I was talking about nancy and GuiltyLion

I'm so sorry, I misread that GL as an EL. My bad. Sorry I called you out on it.

EccentricLemon has been awfully quiet

I just got home from school plus a 5 hour meet. Just to clarify.

My take on Titus' vote is that if she is scum, she is trying to jump on the bandwagon to further people's distrust of me, since I'm already suspicious. If Titus is town, she might perceive me as a real threat.
However, I am concerned about the lack of explanation past:

VOTE: EccentricLemon
My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

and

VOTE: EccentricLion
Gut

We're already into some good discussions and there's quite a lot to base a reason off of. I've said quite a bit and so have other people. Just saying "Gut" seems a bit weird if you ask me.

Newbscum, because oversensitivity to her own suspiciousness and minimal effort at scumhunting. Newbtown, because surely she wouldn't be saying things like "perceive me as a real threat" if she actually were scum.

Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a

vote toejam

because gross.

Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.

Hey, GuiltyLion, you there?

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I don't know how this is for everyone else, but to me, the lack of substance in Titus' posts weirds me out. To me, it feels like what someone would post if they are only going through the motions of playing the game. I don't know if this is how she plays all the time, since she seems like a pretty experienced player. I think Jae or someone did mention that they played against them before and killed her only to find out she was town, which leads me to believe this is just how she plays. (is this metagaming?)
What's especially weird, though, is that the first question in post 127 is asking GL what his opinion is on something that he had just answered two posts before and the third question just seems irrelevant.

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

Newbscum, because she is jumping to conclusions, maybe just in order to seem to be scumhunting. Newbtown, because I believe her reaction to Titus is genuine, and she's at least trying to contribute to the scumhunt.

You just contradicted yourself by saying that nancy is playing passively, and then saying that she's playing aggressively. Which one is it?

It's poor wording.
I meant in that situation she wasn't aggressively trying to get someone lynched. She wasn't lobbying for someone to get hanged, she was pointing out a detail that bothered her. If you notice, she's one of the most active users in terms of posting and calling people out. I think you can call that aggressive in terms of overall strategy. She's playing aggressively but she wasn't actively accusing anyone (hence that she hadn't changed her vote) at the time.

That being said, it seems unnatural that even a careful townie would be this paranoid. Also, you claimed it would make you look bad if Guilty was lynched because of your actions, but why would you even need to worry about that? He wasn't going to be killed because of an RVS vote.

I'd like to know why anyone having a "knowledgeable tone" is a problem in the first place. Does looking ignorant make people towny?

Baseless paranoia. Personal reasons. Not something I'm willing to discuss further. It'll go away as the game progresses. I don't even know why I included that.
Having a knowledgeable tone could point to scum because the scum is supposed to be the informed minority (because they know who is town and who isn't, and they are able to communicate outside of the group) and the town the uninformed majority (because they aren't certain who the other town are and who is the scum). Implying the you have more knowledge than what can be reasonably deduced from what has been previously said, especially on the first day, is therefore usually a scumtell.

That being said, I agree with the point that it's hard to tell when Jae is in teacher mode and when they are in player mode.
Jae, since you have a lot of experience with this game, it can seem at times that you're blurring these lines on purpose, so it wold be nice if you were clearer when you're switching between the two. I would hate if that were the case.

Newbscum, because the lean of her comments about Mafia communication, because she is suddenly behaving differently, and because her final sentence seems disjointed. Newbtown, because her change in behavior away from being motivated by fear and aversion to attention is explainable by the game having progressed, and her feeling more comfortable as it has. (I've certainly become more comfortable since page 1.)

It seems to me that Jae is frustrated with how their status as IC makes people want to follow their decisions instead of making their own. It's difficult for Jae to tell who is sheeping them because they're a newb and who's sheeping them because they're scum trying to blend in.
A scum wouldn't get frustrated with lack of information because a scum would already have all the information regarding who is scum and who is town.

This wouldn't bother me if more people were sheeping the IC, however. I think tojam and Titus are sheeping, but not bowdown, nancy, Agent Sparkles, or GuiltyLion--who make up the majority of active players. All of them have responded in some way to what Jae has offered, often critically. I know Jae doesn't think I'm sheeping or at LEAST is pretty confident I'm town. (In #88, Jae responds to my comment with advice rather than critique, leading me to believe they think I'm a noob town). Therefore, I don't think there's any need to the frustration Jae is expressing because there's plenty of information available.

Newbscum, because of the potential hints of knowledge about Jae's alignment, and because of the consistent attention to what information scum have and how they'd use it.

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae. I need to go look through posts for some more solid evidence. I'll get back to you on that.

Titus and tojam's interactions are very limited. It's hard to tell what they think of each other but the lack of communication between them I think reveals quite a lot.
I think this interaction in particular is really scummy, especially on tojam's part:

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

It feels very forced. There's no reason to answer to Titus' post in this situation, since the original comment is clearly geared toward GuiltyLion. It seems to me like tojam is trying to cover up the lack of interaction between him and Titus.
The other thing wrong with tojam's reaction is "Can't say I've cared much about your posts." Once again, seems like forced interaction because that statement contributes absolutely nothing.

I think #56 also feels forced, especially since it was never brought up again by either of them.
These are the only two interactions between the two of them that I could find, which is also quite disconcerting. Not having anything to say about someone is fine, but saying stuff for the sake of saying it rather than furthering discussion is not.

I can say I'm still a bit on the fence about Titus. She provides much less information in her posts than tojam, so I can't tell if she's just less involved with the game or if she's trying to cover up the fact that she already knows what we're trying to figure out. #132 really sealed the deal for me on tojam, however.

Now that I think about it more, it is a bit strange that both mafias would act the same way. Especially since both of them aren't noobs. I'm pretty sure at least one of them is scum, though. Just judging by the aloofness I'm perceiving from them. And I think it's more likely that tojam would be scum if that were the case.

Noobscum, because she's quick to conclude that someone is scum on little basis, and because her behavior isn't consistent. Noobtown, because she's attempting to scumhunt.

VOTE: EccentricLemon

[nancy]

Seen as you asked, as I've said plenty of times.
Scum would be giving town more time to hunt by starting conversation.

I realize you've said that, I was hoping for a little more explanation and alternatives. Scum starting conversation could be a good way to start directing the conversation in a useless direction, for instance. I also don't think that the time difference would be significant, since the discussion will surely start within 1-2 pages regardless of who takes the lead. If you're too stressed at the moment to post at length, don't worry about it, real life comes first.

[nancy]

So what's next here? Does PR cc now? Wait until tomorrow? Something else?

[nancy]

Omg I'm actually in love with Titus.

[nancy]

@bowdown GL's 76 could easily be partner communication. 125 could be a case of him being overly sensitive to alignment knowledge. He hasn't done any real scumhunting beyond keeping up appearances. The stuff is there for a scumread if you want to make it, along with a few inductive leaps.

[nancy]

@JaeReed tojam2 has IRL issues, the time to allay the scurvy has come.

[nancy]

@Jae According to what I understand about this game, I find your comments re Lemon wagon to be scummy. You don't seem very confident in your TR on her, I'm certainly not, and you've previously stated that L-2/1 is a great way to force people to prove themselves. Please explain to me why I'm wrong.

[nancy]

Ohh I didn't know we were allowed to talk about other games. So your comment about skimming and newbs was interesting, because that's something I actually picked up from a game I read full of experienced players - it seemed given to them that skimming was scummy.

Thank you for the awesome quotes and several helpful posts in the last page or two.

[nancy]

SirCakez

I'm going camping for a few days tomorrow, I have no idea to what extent I'll be able to keep up here during that as I'll only have access via fone but I'll try.

I'll probably update my list of reads before I take off in the morning. Hopefully the game receives a little citrus infusion before then.

[nancy]

nancy has accused me of being inconsistent several times, but the whole switching between thinking I'm a newb town and newb scum isn't consistent either. This whole post is as if you're trying to convince yourself that I'm scum rather than convince the rest of the players that I'm scum.

Actually, the whole post is me elaborating on my read of you in response to JaeReed asking me to examine why I was leaning towards a newbtown read on you, and opening up my read to criticism from other players. Why would I want to convince myself that you're scum? That makes zero sense.


Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario for a moment. Assume EccentricLemon is scum. JaeReed asks me to question my TR of EL and afterwards begins to post very actively. In the midst of this they put their first vote of the game on tojam2 with little to no justification (his worst crime at that point was basically not posting enough content), and post their reads list/tier. After intimating that their preference was for wagoning to pressure players (demonstrated in practice by their vote on tojam2), they claim, in rather uncertain terms, that in light of a newbie's post they believe EL may be Town (am I really meant to believe that I pointed things out to them that they hadn't already seen?), unvotes, expresses the opinion that we should not focus on Lemon, and suggests to me that a conflicted read is fine as a null read (sounds like great advice, but it also greatly serves their rescue of Lemon). Their previous hesitance to scumhunt is gone, they begin dispensing advice and towncred freely, and are quickly directing Town in directions away from Lemon.

So yes, right now I believe that JaeReed and EccentricLemon are scum partners. Take a look at 168 again, too, or previous examples of Jae ignoring people's questions when they're part of a scumhunting effort directed against them.

[nancy]

Mm, I don't think you're 'just pointing that out'. Implicit in that statement is the argument that it's unreasonable of people to vote you a second time. Your question to me is unanswerable because it doesn't make sense. My vote hasn't changed because no one has said anything to change my read. A vote is just a word in code. How you choose to interpret it is your call. Addressing it requires addressing the read that led to it. Why is it relevant that people voted you before the game gained momentum but not relevant how you behaved before the game gained momentum?

What is going on with Revan? Did he really just lie to Titus?

[nancy]

Hypothetical being me and EL as scum partners.
Why would I question your townread on EL rather than just agree in much the same manner that GL did?

Because you're better scum than GL, or because GL isn't scum. Your subsequent content was therefore preempting a possible scumread. This makes sense if you are partners because you know her to be scum and know how she has messed up.

Didn't Revan say that he was reading Titus strongly as scum just to elicit a reaction? Everything else about that aside, that's lying and I've heard that if there's a #1 rule as Town it's don't lie.

Sorry I can't reply more properly than this on my fone.

[nancy]

I'm still not completely convinced of Lemon's scumminess and I've never had a townread on bowdown or revan so I'd consider following a wagon thete.

[nancy]

Question: Do scum get to directly communicate with each other?

Usually during pre-game and night phases in the newbie queue. Not during the Day phase.

Well that completely messes up my scumread of Lemon.

unvote

VOTE: Revan

[nancy]

Don't have time to fully explain, but I thought she'd been communicating with you or an SE during today.

[nancy]

Pregame coaching isn't enough fmpov, with what I was looking at. Also, Lemon had the chance to hammer an 'obvscum' and didn't, which is another town tell I think? Although Jae has said it's mostly null.

[nancy]

Well, maybe it's irrelevant given that Lemom knows she's on thin ice.

[nancy]

I'm sorry I think it's best I unvote because I can't really follow what's going on. I get home tomorrow and can re-read and hopefully post properly before deadline

unvote

[nancy]

I'm back. First things first, I retract 376 and apologize for a crappy post. Cheap way to "out" oneself as town. It's relevant however that my scumread of Lemon and especially of Lemon/Jae depended partially on certain private communications having taken place (e.g., 168). Titus is right about pregame coaching.

On Revan: this personality type has a tendency to seem scummy even when they aren't (kind of similar to how EL's personality has a tendency to seem townie when they aren't). I'm not going to join this wagon today.

On D1 lynch: I should play to win the game. It isn't at all clear how to interpret this, however. Do I lynch who I think is scummiest or who I think will give us the best chance of catching scum down the track? Lynching Lemon would certainly free up headspace to look elsewhere, and she doesn't post or scumhunt much - only 2 more posts than mod - so if she flips Town it isn't as though we'd be losing a great deal. I'm kind of disinclined to lynch her though, because she's been giving off at least

some

towntells recently, and there are better options immediately available: GuiltyLion and Titus.

I'm just going to bank on either GL or Titus being scum. And not both. GL has contributed pretty much nothing all day, but I'm also pretty unimpressed by how little Titus came up with after the naked vote on EL, so either makes sense to me.

Which results in a lynching priority for me of: GL, Titus, EL, Agent Sparkles, bowdown, revan

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Feel free to try to convince me to hammer or not hammer Lemon, but I'd prefer GL/Titus.

[nancy]

Want to unvote tojam? You're giving scum the hammer right now.

[nancy]

Oh I miscounted, I thought EL was at L-1.

Revan and Titus have already expressed willingness to lynch GL. Tojam also appears willing, though he has stated that he prefers EL. This puts L-1 on GL within easy reach. I don't think his claim is particularly relevant at this point. If he's the real jailer (1/7) then we're fucked, but otherwise it's irrelevant. If he's mafia, he'll almost certainly claim jailer to try to and bait a cc. I doubt the real jailer would out at this point, preferring to just hammer or wait for someone else to hammer if they're already on the wagon. He could also claim vanilla, but this is unlikely because it doesn't do anything for his chances of survival and doesn't stand to give his partner anything to work with. In other words, real jailer shouldn't out/cc D1, so a jailer claim should be ignored. No matter who we lynch we're running a 1/7 chance of being wrong and lynching the real jailer. I like those odds.

[nancy]

Or tracker.

[nancy]

What's your opinion on Revan? You voted him earlier, which suggests you scumread him.

On Revan: this personality type has a tendency to seem scummy even when they aren't (kind of similar to how EL's personality has a tendency to seem townie when they aren't). I'm not going to join this wagon today.

You should re-read Revan's posts with context, your summary showed misunderstanding.

There was a reason I asked about scum communication. Since you and Titus were my top scumreads, I considered a hypothetical scenario were you were partners and your strategy of attacking Titus for a reaction and later unvoting was your way of bussing for credit without actually lynching her. This would've been undermined if scum could talk during the day, since you could've informed her of what you were trying to do and she probably would've been more cooperative. Alone, it's not a very strong case to make against you, but combined with the above quote wall and everything else you've said and done, it's hard to see you as town.

That's bad strategy according to anything I know about scum play. I could see a newb doing it, but not Titus. Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that anyone is more inclined to believe that either you or I are town just because of the comments about mafia private communication. If anything it makes me more suspicious of you.

[nancy]

Take a note from JaeReed's book, when he made that comment about completed games. Classy.

[nancy]

And I've only been scum twice as far as completed games.

[nancy]

Nice timing Jae, I'm going to sleep as well. Be back in 7 hours or so.

[nancy]

Where you at Titus?

[nancy]

Something that I think is lost in the conversation about Lemon is that Lemon is new. I think I am the only one of the noobs with prior forum mafia/werewolf experience. Nobody else came out super awkward - some of us (myself included, Jae, maybe someone else?) are somewhat giving lemon a pass on that initial awkwardness because she's new, but it makes a lot of sense that noob-mafia would be super nervous at the start of the game. No other noobs were like that.

This didn't make sense at the time and doesn't now. Am I reading this right? Hasn't basically

all

of the conversation about Lemon been about the fact that she's a newb?

[nancy]

Lemon what's your availability from now until deadline?

[nancy]

Also, try not to get too frustrated - it's just a game. I know that's easier said than done. We're here to have fun first and foremost. All of your actions are going to be taken under the context of how a more experienced player would act because the context of mafiascum is experienced players. We're in the newbie queue to learn about that context and adapt to it.

[nancy]

Ok.

[nancy]

And yes, time to claim Lemon.

[nancy]

And by the way GL, I wasn't implying you'd not been doing anything, I was implying that you're scum. Your scumhunting looks scummy to me. I did re-read your ISO before posting and I didn't particularly like what I saw.

[nancy]

Bowdown please respond to 461.

This whole situation sucks, by the way. Knowing how Jae loves to defend their townreads, I was hoping they'd recognize the GL wagon as an indirect way to save her. It was a desperate measure but I'm pretty convinced that Lemon is PR so desperate measures are called for. Jae didn't recognize it and Titus has RL issues so now we're probably going to mislynch for no reason. Still, a part of me wants to believe Titus about Lemon/GL. I guess the flip will be telling.

[nancy]

Reed, you've overlooked something.
Since you're thinking that the scumteam is 2 newbs, I'll leave it up to you to figure out what it might be.
Right now, please don't post your findings, if any.
Scum already have too much information.

Jae, you're so convinced that you'll die tonight, and yet your leading D1 has ultimately been ineffective. Your townread is getting lynched, and by your posts you are clearly not a PR. I don't think you're much of a threat to anybody.

[nancy]

I don't like how nancy is voting for lack of content, rather than analyzing someone's content then trying to discern their alignment. It looks like scum looking for an easy way out.

Are you selectively reading my posts because you are scum or because you are inattentive?

[nancy]

Look and think more carefully, Jae. Assume I'm Town as say a thought experiment and try again.

Revan, please answer my question.

[nancy]

You're selectively reading my posts and misrepresenting me, whether intentionally or unintentionally. 469 clearly states a GL scumread based on based on

content

.

Revan, your posts have been frequently incomprehensible and scattershot, and now you're making me do your work for you. Scumreads: 138, 180, 207, 270.

[nancy]

JaeReed, why are you being wilfully blind?

[nancy]

125, where GL unvotes EL shortly after she gives off a bunch of scumtells and votes bowdown for weak reasons while accusing him of slipping knowledge of Lemon being Town. (If Lemon is scum, this is especially bad.) 182 looks like more for show than anything, as with most. He pokes around a little and asks a few questions but ultimately contributes nothing solid. 277 is a bit of a wishy-washy scumread and doesn't present anything new about why Revan is scum. 348 is good scumhunting, but it's also opportunistic because you were behaving pretty scummily at that point and the wagon against you was solid. The rest of his posts are more of the same nothing much. He hasn't contributed significantly to anything Town has done, he hasn't started anything, he's just sat back mostly, kept up appearances, and otherwise done a little helpful SE'ing. This is a scumread I'm moderately sure of.

[nancy]

JaeReed, why are you being wilfully blind?

A scumslip is a scumslip is a scumslip.

Who's your partner?

It wasn't a scumslip. Try again. Look more closely.

[nancy]

SirCakez

I'm back home so you can take me off V/LA.

[nancy]

Timezone differences - it's a new week here already.

[nancy]

I read that post in both of my recent re-reads of GL's ISO and I'm not inclined to meta-clear. If you're into meta, both Titus and Jae commented that GL has been abnormally unresponsive.

[nancy]

<3 Titus.

[nancy]

^ Yup, then continually trying to soft it to me lol.

Seeing as you didn't accept it, I'll just speak plainly.

First of all, you're assuming I'm bad at adapting to new information. When EccentricLemon didn't claim despite being under pressure I assumed that she was PR and didn't want to out herself until absolutely necessary because this would hurt town. Her recent posting or lack thereof speaks of a kind of resignation to being lynched. I believe that if she were mafia, she would not respond to this by barely posting anything.

I've been prodding and poking people for reactions all day, and the actions of the past several hours have been particularly telling. With 473, Jae's jump to pinning me as a mafia roleblocker told me that they must be the jailer. My "slip" after makes complete sense if I am Jailer, or even just as a newb post being ignorant of the matrix, but they jumped to the roleblocker. I proceeded to attempt a roleswap with Jae and tried to diminish his value to Town so as to try to divert a newbscum team from killing them. The end.

[nancy]

after all*

[nancy]

Oh and by the way, you were wrong about Lemon flailing. So I believe that putting pressure on her in order to test her reaction after it had become apparent that she was more confident was justified.

[nancy]

And I think you were awesome today. Ignore what I said about you being ineffective.

[nancy]

Haha, I'm not wriggling. Note for yourself that you were blinded by what you see as a sure read and interpret everything through that lens. I suppose this would suggest emotional involvement in the game clouding your judgement? I just hope that you'll start paying a little more attention to Titus in the future because you seem to hand out townreads too readily to standard play and scumreads to non-standard play.

[nancy]

I was trying to take the heat for you, actually. Slim chance that an IC wouldn't be N1'd but I was willing to give it a shot. I feel badly for my post leading to the derail of EL's wagon because it certainly doesn't help Town and I'm letting Titus down, but I didn't realize that the matrix went horizontal as well as vertical.

Please lynch GL before EL?

[nancy]

I just hope that you'll start paying a little more attention to Titus in the future because you seem to hand out townreads too readily to standard play and scumreads to non-standard play.

This would hold some weight if I were townreading Titus.

You're saying Titus' play is standard?

[nancy]

Why didn't you share this with the rest of us? If you're actually Town and believe yourself to be in your deathbed, that is.

[nancy]

And why didn't you express support for a Titus lynch when that possibility came up? Your claims that there wasn't enough time for a flashwagon were clearly not based on any real belief.

[nancy]

I'm so sorry for disappearing, I had several papers to write and other stuff came up.
I'm kind of weirded out by how dramatically the votes have changed in so little time. I fully expected to come back to see myself lynched. Is this a common thing or is this particular to the game?

It's not very common, but Town thought they caught a scumslip, which aren't very common either.

[nancy]

I don't know why I answered that when I'm a newb. From what I've read in games and theory, it isn't common.

[nancy]

nancy, we don't have time at this stage to flashwagon. There's a reason I defaulted to one of Revan/EL. Please choose whichever of these you feel is more likely to flip scum at this stage.

If you're maf it seems pretty convenient to townread and defend the one person (EL) who is most easily directed, and to lead a flashwagon on me when I "scumslip". Your play in leading the wagon has been uncharacteristicly aggressive and it comes when Lemon was on the verge of being killed. Motive: either saving your partner or saving the person who would be a valuable tool down the track, and getting rid of a player (nancy) who shares thinking styles more with the two people who seem to be opposing you most strongly (Titus and Revan). Your meta read of Titus isn't really valuable because it could easily be you as mafia biding your time and laying the groundwork for a future push.

[nancy]

It's not very common, but Town thought

they

caught a scumslip, which aren't very common either.

Hey look I found another one!

Congrats! You struck gold! Though it's actually indicative of me thinking from an objective, third person-y perspective.

[nancy]

Or rather, from the perspective of a dead woman.

[nancy]

yeah, given that nancy is not the jailkeeper, I think that's a slip

intent to hammer nancy

Your argument is just as flimsy as you claim Titus' to be. If I were mafia, I would have claimed Jailkeeper. No question. This whole bandwagon against me is an opportunisitic farce, and you're all selectively interpreting evidence to suit your blind push of me.

[nancy]

After going through Titus' ISO, I don't find your case against her convincing. She has been passively scumhunting all game and has apparently not seen anything to change her opinion of Lemon or GL. That's called conviction, not scum. People have at various points disliked her for tunneling Lemon since early in the game, but they've also disliked me for adapting too swiftly to new information (not just recently), so it seems like people are just picking and choosing what they want to pay attention to. Anything outside the norm is scummy.

Revan you were initially scumreading Jae - can you elaborate on that please? If not today, tomorrow. I dislike their recent behavior and at times I also got pings from them but I didn't think much of them because most of their content seemed so pro-town.

[nancy]

If you're town (which I very much doubt at this stage but we'll see with the flip either way) the best thing you can do right now is try to find who you believe is interacting with your wagon in a non-genuine way. Give a reads list based off that, with a summary of why the reads are that way for people to look back over the next day. Everyone on your wagon can't be scum. There's 2 scum in the game at most. Find the ones you believe are genuine in their push, and the ones you believe are being opportunistic.

I've been doing that, and I think one of them is you. The other would be bowdown, who I've had a weak scumread on for most of the game. I've never voiced that read because I keep second guessing myself into thinking that I just dislike their personality/posting style, but maybe there is something to it. Revan is an obvious one to look into. I stand by my refusal to join that wagon based off only a portion of a day's worth of content when - I'm sorry I don't know how to say this any other way - his ego is making him seem automatically scummy, but his content absolutely sucks. GL is careful and smart and his hammer doesn't imply anything about his motives or alignment, but I think he's scum.

In order of strongest to weakest read:
Scum: GL, Agent Sparkles, Revan
Not-town: bowdown, Titus, Jae
Town: tojam, EL

If GL isn't scum, Titus is very likely scum. I believe I have a good read on Titus because I knew that she wouldn't vote me and she didn't.

[nancy]

By the way, do I have to wait for this game to end before rejoining queue?

[nancy]

I probably shouldn't leave out EL from the opportunist list, since her vote was essentially a self-save, even though I was never going to hammer her (she didn't know this, of course, so I can't blame her).

[nancy]

Thanks! And thanks again for the IC-ness, I learned loads and had lots of fun, especially the past few pages or so!

[nancy]

Not voting Nancy.

Taking note of how easy it is to derail EL without a claim.

Why the heck are you not?

I can't speak for her but I'd say it's because she has a good enough read on me to disbelieve that it could've been a genuine scumslip, and because her primary scumread may have slipped knowledge of me being town.

[nancy]

Also, she isn't blind. See 533.

[nancy]

Have to admit, it is kind of amusing to get lynched for a non-slip after spending all game giving Lemon the benefit of the doubt despite all of her apparent slips.

[nancy]

Not to say that it isn't my own fault for landing me here. It's facepalm-worthy mistake if I ever saw one.

[nancy]

Sorry if I gave you sads for not TRing you, Titus.

[nancy]

Ok. I'm officially talking to myself here. Lmfao.

[nancy]

She has been passively scumhunting

Titus doesn't passively scumhunt unless she's scum or busy irl.

I'd also like to point out that you and GL have both admitted to wrongfully scumreading her in the recent past. I don't think you should put so much trust in your meta-reads of her.

[nancy]

When did I admit to that?

My bad, it was just GL.

[nancy]

It's better to have a lynch on D1 than to reach a deadline no lynch.

The statistics for town wins on a no lynch D1 are horrendous iirc.

Interesting. Time to research some numbers theory!

[nancy]

Excessive justification of that hammer suggests to me that you were afraid that someone would wise up and the wagon on EL would resume. We already know you promised to hammer me before bed, you don't need to remind that you promised it just because Titus was defending me and it might make the hammer look suspicious. Tojam already said he'd hammer me and we all know by his posting history that he isn't particularly fond of me. Scum. You are scum.

[nancy]

I'm not going to flip red and you know it.

[nancy]

Again posting another convenient "scumhunt" post. Agent Sparkles is already heavily suspected. Was. A red flip for me would not clear Titus, that is bs and you're trying to misdirect town into thinking that because me flipping red = Titus clear, me flipping green = Titus scum.

[nancy]

And because I don't want my last post to contain an expletive, thank all of you SE's and IC and mod for helping us newblets!!

[nancy]

Most likely 2nd scum, in order of most to least: EccentricLemon, JaeReed, Revan, bowdown.

[nancy]

Upon re-reading GL's ISO yet again, let me update that to: EccentricLemon, bowdown, JaeReed, Revan.

[nancy]

Which results in a lynching priority for me of:

GL, Titus, EL, Agent Sparkles, bowdown, revan

Tojam: Essentially ConfTown
JaeReed- Leaning Town
GuiltyLion- Nulltown
Bowdown- Possibly nulltown, will have to reread him a bit more

Nancy- Neutral

newbie scum like to avoid committing to a firm read on eachother, and these two readslists posts were made when Nancy didn't appear to be a viable lynch option.[/quote]
I wonder why you've ignored the fact that the bowdown read seems pretty darned noncommital there. According to your logic, bowdown (and even JaeReed) should also be a potential scumpartner of Sparkles. I also previously stated that I don't bus, so it makes no sense that I would want to lynch Agent Sparkles as scum partners. But it does make sense that you would narrowly interpret and try to distort my post into saying what you wanted it to say to support your scummy agenda.

[nancy]

Let's try that again.

Which results in a lynching priority for me of: GL, Titus, EL,

Agent Sparkles

, bowdown, revan

Tojam: Essentially ConfTown
JaeReed- Leaning Town
GuiltyLion- Nulltown
Bowdown- Possibly nulltown, will have to reread him a bit more

Nancy- Neutral

newbie scum like to avoid committing to a firm read on eachother, and these two readslists posts were made when Nancy didn't appear to be a viable lynch option.

I wonder why you've ignored the fact that the bowdown read seems pretty darned noncommital there. According to your logic, bowdown (and even JaeReed) should also be a potential scumpartner of Sparkles. I also previously stated that I don't bus, so it makes no sense that I would want to lynch Agent Sparkles as scum partners. But it does make sense that you would narrowly interpret and try to distort my post into saying what you wanted it to say to support your scummy agenda.

[nancy]

This is a long ass twilight.

[nancy]

Is it rude of me to keep scumhunting during twilight?

[nancy]

I mean, should I like, pretend to be dead?

[nancy]

In that case, how do you feel about me flipping green?

[nancy]

Titus didn't ignore anything. She just didn't selectively focus on one piece of information and forget everything else, like you all did. No hard feelings, don't worry!

[nancy]

And no, the above isn't why I upgraded bowdown two spots on my likely scumpartner list. Though it didn't help.

[nancy]

Clarifying this so GL can't distort it later.

Again posting another convenient "scumhunt" post. Agent Sparkles is already heavily suspected. Was. A red flip for me would not clear Titus, that is bs and you're trying to misdirect town into thinking that because me flipping red = Titus clear, me flipping green = Titus scum.

I am referring to Agent Sparkles being suspected at the time of 568, not referring back to 358. GL's "suspicion" of him practically clears him in my mind, though. His inactivity must be legitimate and not scumlurking.

[nancy]

LOL!

Aw, don't feel bad. I think this whole thing has actually benefitted town in the end.

[nancy]

Ooh good idea!

SirCakez

please don't spoil it for me!

[nancy]

By the way I loved the drunk posting

[nancy]

Honestly? Pretty guilty. I always feel that way after a mislynch regardless of alignment, though. It's especially bad this time given that I don't normally like "slip" logic because it's usually just semantics. I really thought I drunkenly picked up something and went against all the theory on why NOT to do what I did (pushing a flashwagon this close to deadline), and the surety that you couldn't be the other PR with the way you were acting prior cemented my view on that. Where you kept talking to me like you knew I was town and trying to convince me that I was wrong then flipping to calling me scum.

So that's why confirmation bias is bad. >.>

And yeah that was a weird and (for me) hilarious sequence.

[nancy]

I kept feeling like bowdown was scum, ALL DAY, and yet I couldn't find any real foothold for the argument, it was driving me up the wall. After how people reacted to my gutread I wasn't about to go sprouting stuff I couldn't find a solid basis for.

[nancy]

What's a townblock?

[nancy]

You're not stupid!

[nancy]

I am stupid it was my dumb jailer assumption that got me lynched. Anyway, lynching Lemon or Revan would've told us basically nothing. I was townreading them both and super reluctant to hammer, which I'm glad for, even if it's resulted in my demise!

[nancy]

Away from the computer for an hour or so, if SirCakez returns in that time, then adieu. Heck of a fun game.

[nancy]

Hehe.

Now that I can talk about theory without detracting from the hunt, I have a question about roleswapping. How does one go about it? Is it limited to certain setups or circumstances or can it be broadly applied, given the right technique? Do you (anyone else feel free to answer!) know of any games where roleswapping has taken place so that I can see it firsthand? Everything is so different here to EM.

[nancy]

Awesome, thank you. And yes, I know him.

[nancy]

So vig accepted the roleswap by killing MariaR after 1225?

[nancy]

I'm surprised they didn't get busted after Transcend blatantly asks his RS how many bullets are in the gun

[nancy]

Looks like it progresses as 1. identify the PR 2. make it clear to the PR that they are your TR and hint at knowledge of a PR role or such 3. wait for them to make it clear that you are their TR 4. soft claim 5. wait for PR to accept 6. RS

Which is pretty much how it happens in EM, too, it just plays out pretty differently here.

[nancy]

Yeah, that requires a bit of guessing and in EM depending on the player a PR will actually recognize you trying to make a RS with someone and if they're TRing you strongly enough, they'll step in and guide you to them. Meaning that you don't necessarily need to get it right as long as you're towntelling enough and the PR is in the hands of someone inclined to RS.

In your case I was damned sure that you were PR given how uncharacteristic your behavior was for the Jae I'd seen so far who wasn't Jailer. After you rejected it I concluded that you were either Tracker or Mafia Roleblocker, hence my subsequent reading flipping on you trying to figure out what you were doing.

[nancy]

I agree.

Revan, Agent Sparkles, nancy, tojam2, Titus, JaeReed are all Town. Tojam2 is conftown as uncc'd PR. JaeReed is conftown based on their twilight posts. Agent Sparkles is highly likely to be Town due to GL's effort at joining the lurker hunting party. Titus is highly likely to be Town because I'm reading her that way I know I'm right. You're pretty likely Town because it just makes sense. EL may or may not be Town, I'm no longer inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt.

80% chance of GL-bowdown. 20% chance of GL-EL.

JaeReed is dead, so get to work on D2 and don't let us graveyarders down. Please do not lynch bowdown or EL before GL. GL needs rope ASAP.

[nancy]

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[nancy]

In order of strongest to weakest read:
Scum: GL, Agent Sparkles, Revan
Not-town: bowdown, Titus, Jae
Town: tojam, EL

[nancy]

*GL quickhammers nancy*

npz

[nancy]

Naw his hammer was 100% a scumclaim, I was just the only one who saw it

Kind of shocking how much of a scumlord he was this game while getting TRed for it xD

[nancy]

^

[nancy]

Sobolev when you first entered I thought you fucking had AS nailed, you let me down :[

[nancy]

Anyway I think this game was a case of Town not really getting in the mentality of scum. People went after plain-in-sight scum and didn't really think about who would actually have scum motivation.

pedit interesting take.

[nancy]

And yeah, immense fun for me in the Day I had.

[nancy]

Yeah AS's lurking and posting timings were really spot-on imo throughout Day 2 and Day 3. The long lurk Day 1 after getting Townread and the lack of solid stances early in Day 2 I think was the only scumclaim-y stuff.

[nancy]

Oh it seemed like you did Sobolev

There was a point where tojam voted AS for not having any real reads on people and for AS I could tell it was a super tight spot because whichever way he voted he'd be kind of betraying himself, he ended up finding an out by voting Revan I think and people weren't really watching him anyway.

[nancy]

Heh I dunno looking back my case on you wasn't very persuasive at all GL, not from the perspective of someone who isn't already scumreading you anyway (or obviously from yours since you knew you were scum).

[nancy]

Yeah but I TRed AS because of it I didn't really know what distancing was at that point lol

[nancy]

And Titus got lynched anyway :/

pedit oh, shit, ok.

[nancy]

Sorry for that.

[nancy]

Oh I didn't mean anything by the rubbing it in comments. It was just, you guys were absolutely wrecking Town and you just both kept posting more and more without a care in the world and I was just like oh god let it end.... It wasn't obnoxious at all! (:

[nancy]

Oh yeah I realized you were joking with 972 (:

Sorry if you took it that way, I was seriously 0% annoyed by your play, scum played great this game.