Large Normal 199: L'Hôtel Pleuvoir (Fin)

[Aj The Epic]

I mean in my defense do you think I fuck this game so badly that I don't vote for scum a single time (outside of the chance Elbrin is scum) this entire game? Not the greatest defense but I'm alive because I've just been so incredibly wrong this entire game.

[Cephrir]

While I'm aware that some mods allow No Lynch to be lynched with half the votes, I don't have a strong opinion on that and I didn't write anything about it in the rules, so day will continue.

[Titus]

Fuck that shit

VOTE: No Lynch

VOTE: No lynch - vote early night

Pine, if scum deliberately no killed, they want the game state like this.

Yes, but my point is that no lynching won't change anything. Either they no kill again and we're back here once more, or they kill you or I and we're in this position with less wisdom.

I don't think Elbirn no kills and then stands on principle about no lynch.

Cabd cleared you ages ago.

It isn't me.

AJ is the only reasonable option, and I see it. I won't be voting no lynch.

VOTE: AJ

Let them kill. We force scum to kill.

[Titus]

Who they kill suggests the lylo they want. I am not voting.

[Aj The Epic]

Mod, can we go 3/4 Majority No lynch and then a decision for a shortened night (24 hours max?)

[Cephrir]

Mod, can we go 3/4 Majority No lynch and then a decision for a shortened night (24 hours max?)

If everyone PMs me agreeing to accelerate night, I'll end it upon receiving all of said PMs.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: no lynch

[Cephrir]

Votecount 7.F

No Lynch 3 (Elbirn, Titus, Aj)
Aj 1 (Pine)

You all string up no lynch. It turns out he was just a poor, innocent dude who wasn't even a part of your game. I can't believe you would do something like that, you monsters.

48 hours for night, PM me if you want it to be less than that.

[Cephrir]

Titus died. She was a townie.

Day.

[Aj The Epic]

Alright so that's about what was expected. Leaning Pine here w/grounds on RB being a bullshit claim.

[Elbirn]

Titus died. She was a townie.

Day.

Okay thank God because this was about to honestly turn into me attacking titus because "why weren't you night killed"

I'm glad we're past that

Uhm...I'm going to bed, nobody vote for anyone kbai

[Aj The Epic]

There wasn't any real chance I'd let that lynch go through... The only case I'd start to worry was if you or Pine died instead of Titus.

[Elbirn]

Hrmph.

Aj, for formalities sake, claim?

I'm vanilla town.

[Pine]

Why the hell would I kill Titus? She's had a solid TR on me for most of the game, and was SRing you guys.

[Pine]

My best guess about the more recent no-kill is that one of you didn't want to eliminate one of us, because you were hoping we'd turn on one another, or at least disagree loudly. Hell, we haven't agreed on much this game except a mutual TR. AJ killing Elbirn or Elbirn killing AJ would result in the other immediately getting lynched.

This is why I shouldn't let my null pool go all game. Right from the very start, you two were the ones I couldn't grok.

[Aj The Epic]

VT

And bullshit 'would cause an immediate lynch'. I have no reason to not go to Lylo immediately since it helps exploit bad townplay as opposed to going Lylo with someone overridingly town.

Thankfully, our mod has kept the death list updated

Lapsa, Townie, lynched Day 1.
Lil Uzi Vert, Town Vanilla Cop, killed Night 1.
CloudKicker, Mafia Loved Traitor, killed Night 1.
mozamis, Town Mason, lynched Day 2.
Cabd, Town Gunsmith, killed Night 2.
Nosferatu, Mafia Motion Detector, killed Night 2.
Gamma Emerald, Townie, lynched Day 3.
ssbm_Kyouko, Townie, killed Night 3.
Alisae, Town Vigilante, killed Night 3.
Nero Cain, Mafia Goon, lynched Day 4.
xSoniaNevermindx, Townie, lynched Day 5.
gerryoat, Town Mason Bodyguard, killed Night 5.
Tywin Lannister, Townie, lynched Day 6.
Titus, Townie, killed Night 7.

If Elbrin/Myself are scum, 6 VTs. One Vanilla Cop, which catches only half the scum team at max and 5 townplayers. A Vig, Gunsmith with negative hits on Cop/Vig. A 3x Role blocker, a Mason Pair with a body guard modifier.

The scum have a goon, Motion Detector and Traitor and a wildcard.

The town is insane in this setup. Like yeah both cops have issues but there's still 2 cops of a sort. Gunsmith has no false positive guilties. Vanilla cop is basically good at checking role claims. A fucking vig/BG combo to effectively protect the cops or the vig itself. And the BG gets to know a free townie to protect if nothing else. Role blocker is another issue a scumteam has to dodge. Meanwhile a motion detector scum role can't claim later into the game due to cops, and really doesn't give a lot of info above what the vanilla cop gets (action performed on player, player performed action). A traitor/goon combo is worse than double goon.

Like even while looking at this I can't help but say "A roleblocker would be soooooo good for scum here".

[Aj The Epic]

Like my guess is 7 townies, 2x Cop with negative parts, vig, mason|BG vs goon, traitor, Motion detector, RB/Godfather (full?) and that one of these roles have a way to cause CK to rejoin the team. That's much better balanced imo.

[Pine]

Yeah, you're discarding the notion that the remaining Mafia member has some kind of PR in your balance assessments. I am also only 3-shot. Motion detector is an incredibly weak PR. Even if you discount me, Town is too strongly balanced against scum. I would wager that the final scum HAS to be a PR of some kind. Given that, the addition of a Roleblocker against two scum PRs is entirely sensible.

[Aj The Epic]

Sure I get that scum has a final PR, but like what fucking PR actually is strong enough to counteract that? Like 4x JOAT Godfather or something? Normally the best PROACTIVE role a scum gets is a roleblocker/JK.

[Pine]

You don't get it - the Normal review group is super Townsided right now. Final scum PR could easily be something as weak as a 2-shot Tracker, or as powerful as a JOAT or Doc.

Remember also that Traitor, especially with this setup, is a negative utility role for scum. It's even more of a hazard for scum than a Miller is for Town. Scum HAVE to have an additional PR, which means the Normal review group would insist on a pretty stacked Town.

[Aj The Epic]

Then you're saying that swinging you, a 3x RB to a scum RB doesn't help negate that at all? Vanilla cop is near useless outside claim verification, BG sacrifices a mason to do so... there's a ton of town power but it's not without cost.

[Elbirn]

I feel like you're both arguing the same thing: Scum has another PR or this game was broke.

This setup seems to revolve around both teams roles causing them to trip over themselves. For town this means vig killing townies, gunsmith getting false positive on the vig / false negative on traitor / (maybe false positive on vanilla cop, idk if they have guns?), vanilla cop getting results on more than half the townies if I'm not mistaken, and a mason bodyguard which is really self defeating. If pine is town rb, he fucks with everything even more and can only stop what, the scum nk or their motion detector?

Meanwhile scum has a traitor which is fulfilling their negative utility and...nothing else I guess but you see the point. A motion detector can suss out town power roles, sorta, but isn't super useful.

I still feel that scum should have a method of dealing with the vig. This could point to a roleblocker, which could be pine. RB might be too strong based on how weak both sides were meant to be though; maybe final scum is a bulletproof, or there was a strongman role to push a nk on vig through



I babble to think thoughts but I don't think I'm going anywhere with this, but for thought: if he's scum rb, why would pine block a VT claim for 2 straight days? Why does it appear that no other town action was blocked?

[Elbirn]

My conclusion is I have no conclusion

One of the following is true

1. Pine is town roleblocker
2. Pine is scum but not a roleblocker, who no killed to setup sonia and give his own PR claim more credence.

I want the 2nd to be true because I want to feel oh so clever for deducing it, which probably means I'm wrong.

[Aj The Epic]

TBH scum has to predict a no kill on sonia's death day to explain that. That's my quickest Occam's Razor of this situation. Either you're a role cop or Pine is the one who instigated the entire thing as scum.

[Pine]

You are.

I feel like the first no kill was either an attempt to draw out claims or something. Either way it was an objective error, as no gain justifies lengthening the game when you're the only one left. This is why I've been thinking it was an inexperienced player like Sonia or Tywin. I'm not so sure now, though it may have something to do with their PR