Open 671: Greater Idea - OVER

[-Grey-]

My reads so far. More for myself so that I don't have to re-read:
Town
Vax (reasonable, logical), NM (looks like in a tvt with RC)

Null
Bang (mixed reactions on his posts), Dave, Kop & Gamma (no clear reads on them), Grey (illogical, selective blindness towards Spade's scumtells. scumleaning)

Scum
Spade (very opportunistic. especially with buddying and jumping the votes wherever the wagon is going)

VOTE: Spade

Will elaborate in 24 hours.

Pedit: You are an idiot, Grey.

>proceeds to lynch before you can get these thoughts out
do it now

He already did.

Shading noted.

[-Grey-]

You're just looking for excuses to shade, Gamma.

[-Grey-]

do I need to quote the post that explains the "right" way to pressure activity
because your way is terrible, and sorta scummy

This, for example, is bullshit.

Actions are not scummy. Anything town can do, scum can do. Anything scum can do, town can do too.

What is done means nothing. It's why that matters.

WHY I'm pressuring Spade over his selective activity is because I suspect it was a strategic move to lie low on d1, followed by an attempt to garner some towncred for bussing after his buddy screwed the pooch.

[-Grey-]

imo it's better to take a more respectful approach to selective activity, instead of assuming it is scummy, you should press them to explain it

More scummy shadecasting.

I didn't say anything that was disrespectful in the slightest over that push, and I think everybody in this game knows that I have the tools to show mad disrespect.

[-Grey-]

What was it that alban said, that made you change your read on me, from top townread to top scumread.

I'm convinced that one of you are scum.

Alban, as shit as his posts are, looks the townier of the two of you. Which I really dislike admitting, btw.

Do you feel he is townier cos he seems to be attacking and challenging you whereas am not? Cos that could also be a mental bias.

On the flip side of that coin, why haven't

you

?

It's almost like you know I'm town.

Also, I'm not a fan of the way you were pushing NM to vote me in 231/232.

346 looks like scum pouncing on an excuse to PL. Self-voting is NAI, it's self-hammers that are scummy, and that's because they are done to terminate discussion. And hell, town self-hammers too, for that matter.

VOTE: Charloux
If he is scum why did Charloux choose RC as his kill? No faction has daychat right?

Hmm. Yes.

This doesn't look like town that discovered caught scum.

It looks, upon reread of your ISO, like scum that was cornered into bussing.

Don't understand? Here's what I see when I read between the lines:

VOTE: Charloux
If he is scum why did Charloux choose RC as his kill? No faction has daychat right?

{Charloux is in trouble here, but maybe I can distract town with irrelevant theory.}

Hmm. Yes.

{Well, I can't fight this.}

[-Grey-]

I buy the claim and the wiki confirms it's a negative utility townie.

UNVOTE:

[-Grey-]

Yeah, but either way I don't want him in hammer range.

We can always run him back up if it comes to that.

[-Grey-]

Looking at alban's discard, along with his play today, I really don't think he's scum.

Mafia Cupid is a great scum role.

[-Grey-]

Spade, as far as I'm concerned us lynching mafia yesterday bought you breathing room.

If we continue to lynch mafia, I'm fine with letting you live... but if we get one mislynch, we need to seriously consider lynching you due to the simple fact we can't actually verify your claim.

[-Grey-]

It's obviously a frame given his parting words. Though it should be so transparently a frame that nobody should buy it.
But at a much higher level than this, think a little bit about what I've said all game and realize that town is much better off if you

take me permanently off the table.

I can see this being said by a PR that got culted.

Also note:

I agree with the observations on Spade_Ace. I saw 485/487 last night when trying to switch to offense mode but ran out of gas.

He had motive to visit Spade last night.

[-Grey-]

Okay, 681 is a fair point.

[-Grey-]

Also grey, did you notice anyone's play being different from yesterday. Something that indicates a change in alignment?

If you did, just out it.

[-Grey-]

Anyway, lynching mafia hasn't given us a breathing room btw. The mod said there was at least 50% town. I think we should assume the initial town number was just 6. So now it after the kills, it is 4.

Ugh. You're right.

I think it's time for me to claim.

I am a Saulus. That is why I played d1 the way I did... I was trying to get lynched without coming across as a Jester.

I prefer town roles whenever I have the choice. So when I was given the choice of scum mason or scum that converts to town, I chose the latter.

And no, I wasn't directly playing against my wincon when I led the charge on Charloux. I have no idea who the rest of the Mafia is. I'm effectively a mafia traitor that converts to VT after being lynched.

[-Grey-]

Hmm, do you reveal this now because you think it's in our best interest to lynch you immediately to get the numbers advantage?

Yes, I think we need to keep town in the majority.

[-Grey-]

Unvotes have to be bolded or tagged.

I won't flip, the lynch will simply fail.

[-Grey-]

I think it's better to lynch me today because that will put a target on my forehead for scum and it may save a PR from being NK'ed tonight.

[-Grey-]

[quote="In post 691, bangthemafia"

]@Mod, if a Judas or Saulus is lynched, will you reveal their role or ypu just tell that day ends but xyz is not lynched.

[/quote]
Mod communications have to be bolded.

Just like votes.

[-Grey-]

@Mod, if a Judas or Saulus is lynched, will you reveal their role or ypu just tell that day ends but xyz is not lynched.

Mod communications have to be bolded.

Just like votes.

[-Grey-]

Page...

[-Grey-]

Top!

[-Grey-]

@grey how do we know that you are not a jester pretending to be Saulus?

Your alignment could have changed overnight.

If I was a Jester, I couldn't have targeted you. Jester's don't have night actions.

[-Grey-]

@MOD if there is a Saulus in the game, does the other mafia member know about it? If they know that role exists, do they know the identity of that player?

What is this question designed to accomplish?

Do you think mafia is going to speak up and confirm my claim of they are aware of my role?

[-Grey-]

Your role could have very well been converted to a jester by the mod at night.

What role converts other players to Jester.

Enlighten us.

Where in the Greater Idea wiki does it even hint at such a possibility?

Enlighten us.

Why are you fighting so hard to keep me from being lynched?

ENLIGHTEN US!

[-Grey-]

If not lynched today, at need to lynch Spade_Ace.

He's scumtelling. He doesn't want to lose a member of his faction.

[-Grey-]

If I'm not lynched today, we need to lynch Spade_Ace.

He's scumtelling. He doesn't want to lose a member of his faction.

Edit.

[-Grey-]

@grey are you pretending to not understand this or am i understanding it wrong?

What does post 707 say? It says that the MOD has the power to change a persons alignment. THE MOD. NOT THE PLAYER.

Show me one single Greater Idea game where the mod turned a player into a Jester mid-game or eat rope.

[-Grey-]

Is there any reason the Mod can't turn aplayer into a Jester mid-game??? The MOD specifically says after last night ended that our alignments could have changed. What is wrong with you?

After roles are initially determined, alignment changes only happen as a function of existing roles.

[-Grey-]

LIKE BLACK GOO

[-Grey-]

Spade_Ace is scum.

I'd he was really a Black Goo, his assumption over the mod message that there may have been an alignment change would be that someone targeted him. Not that the mod got a bug up their ass and went full on bastard.

[-Grey-]

Him or me.

One of us dies today.

[-Grey-]

Imagine a world that you're suggesting exists, where a mod might just up and *poof* a powerful town leader into a Jester for shits and grins in the middle of a game.

Nobody would want to play that. Games have to have some predictability to them, even games that explicitly DO have mid-game alignment changes.

PEdit: ninjad

[-Grey-]

Oh hey,

#pagetop

[-Grey-]

@MOD if there is a Saulus in the game, does the other mafia member know about it? If they know that role exists, do they know the identity of that player?

What is this question designed to accomplish?

Do you think mafia is going to speak up and confirm my claim of they are aware of my role?

No. It will help in finding out the people who were NOT targeting you.

This makes no sense, by the way.

Explain.

[-Grey-]

@MOD if there is a Saulus in the game, does the other mafia member know about it? If they know that role exists, do they know the identity of that player?

What is this question designed to accomplish?

Do you think mafia is going to speak up and confirm my claim of they are aware of my role?

No. It will help in finding out the people who were NOT targeting you.

This makes no sense, by the way.

Explain.

[-Grey-]

If there is a werewolf faction and he/they win then we are the ones who made a shitty choice Grey.

This suggests mafia knew my role.

[-Grey-]

Grey's bang push is shitty, bang is clearly just new. RC Grey = Scum

Where's your vote, sport?

On RC

Why waste it on him when you could support my Lynch easier?

You can't just take the easy way out in life

This post kinda makes me want to flip NM.

It makes a lot of sense if he's mafia and knows I'm a Saulus fishing for a lynch.

[-Grey-]

Of course, he IS voting me now, so is that.

[-Grey-]

Dayvig: Not_Mafia

If you're town I don't even care mate.

If he flips town you are next RC.

I think NM might actually be town.

[-Grey-]

Cult doesn't have a nightkill, so they have to rely on mislynches, dodging death, and recruiting to win.

Nobody WANTS to be in a cult.

[-Grey-]

Yes.

The lynch fails and the game goes to night.

[-Grey-]

Btw unrelated, i did make a poor targeting choice. Antitown to say more at this time.

You probably targeted Lowell, huh?...

I don't see why it would be antiemetic to mention targeting a dead townie.

I think he targeted someone that is still alive.

[-Grey-]

Btw unrelated, i did make a poor targeting choice. Antitown to say more at this time.

You probably targeted Lowell, huh?...

I don't see why it would be antitown to mention targeting a dead townie.

I think he targeted someone that is still alive.

[-Grey-]

Antitown cos he might have to end up revealing his role.

Poor choice as his target was someone who ended up dead.

Not really, because he could have just kept his mouth shut in the first place.

[-Grey-]

@grey there is a good chance you might end up getting killed tonight.

So is there any other thought that you want to add before we lynch you?

I'm kinda hoping I am, because I'm struggling for reads here.

[-Grey-]

I think I'm in the minority when I say NM is probably town.

[-Grey-]

Vaxkiller is active on the site but not really participating here, so that doesn't look good.

[-Grey-]

TBH, I'm not even looking at anything Kop has posted since he hasn't been around for the past five days.

He needs to return or get replaced.

But yes, I think that's a little reachy. I wasn't in any danger of being wagoned.

[-Grey-]

@grey as long as you belong to the mafia faction, the scum won't probably night kill you, ryt?

So can't we lynch you later on in the game?

Werewolf/SK can.

Also, my life contributes directly to a scum wincon as long as I retain this alignment.

[-Grey-]

I think I'm in the minority when I say NM is probably town.

He doesn't seem likely to be mafia as he was the first person to vote for you. He could very well be werewolf / SK.

I think Charloux was going to use NM's flip as a springboard for his own dayvig, so I'm fairly sure they weren't scum together.

[-Grey-]

NM is not a serial killer.

No.

If he's not town, my guess would be Survivor/3P.

[-Grey-]

With 9 Alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The day will end on February 14th, 2017 at 3 AM EST. (V-Day ♥)
(expired on 2017-02-14 02:00:00)

I don't see any reason to rush the lynch.

We do need people to get their butts in here and say words, though.

[-Grey-]

Assuming there are other factions with a night kill...

But there was only one NK last night.

[-Grey-]

@grey do you find any logic in what bang has said regarding people purposely targeting black goo.?

I'm trying to be a bit more civil, which is why I have largely avoided commenting on bang's opinion of cults.

Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if he got culted last night.

[-Grey-]

Can werewolf faction make a kill?

Yes.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... olf_(Role)

[-Grey-]

You'll have to add the ) at the end of the URL, phpbb sucks.

[-Grey-]

Sure. Suit yourself. I said I hav no experience of cult games. Voicing any opinions that contradict yours is scummy or now culty, right???

Look man,

I don't have much patience for people that argue simply for the sake of arguing.

You take anything I say and turn it into a point of contention and that shit is tedious.

I don't care.

[-Grey-]

I think I'm the better lynch.

Mafia loses a member. If I'm NK'ed, whatever. It's still a net gain for town because a 1:1 scum:town trade always benefits town.

[-Grey-]

On the flip side of the coin, I'm functionally a mafia traitor. This means I don't have access to the NK and thus am not an immediate threat to PR's.

Spade risks costing town PR's by virtue of his existence.

There's a case to be made for either of us, tbh.

[-Grey-]

I think you should be asking someone that doesn't have a dog in the race because Spade and I are both biased, albeit for entirely different reasons.

[-Grey-]

Your lack of presence has a lot to do with my uneasiness regarding your slot.

I know, r/l, etc... but it would be nice to see more from you.

[-Grey-]

So you end up losing one confimed Townie

If you were anywhere near confirmed town, I wouldn't care about your claimed negative utility.

The reality of the situation is that your claim is an excellent scum fake claim.

[-Grey-]

With already 2 claims out, does anybody think a mass claim is good? Anyway, if not now, i think we must go for claims on day 3.

This game is guaranteed not to be balanced.

All that mass claim will achieve is to tell scum where to shoot. Knowing who has what roles will not aid in process of elimination because we are not working with an open setup or even a designed role distribution.

[-Grey-]

Mebbe he's annoyed at getting culted.

[-Grey-]

Actually that wouldn't be a bad idea.

I find it hard to believe that scum would even passively entertain the thought of being voted immediately after putting on the show Spade did d1.

His claim today is lining up with his play yesterday on an organic level that I don't really see with scum fake claims.

[-Grey-]

If the rest of town can see what I'm seeing, Spade can actually become a powerful townie precisely because of his negative utility.

[-Grey-]

You know what I think?
I think bang is mafia/other scum trying his damnedest to lynch a townie player, so he can kill someone else tonight

I kinda agree. He's painting laziness as malice.

[-Grey-]

Grey, are you claiming to still be mafia aligned at the moment? (You didn't already change to town?)

I have to be lynched to become town.

[-Grey-]

Grey, are you claiming to still be mafia aligned at the moment? (You didn't already change to town?)

I have to be lynched to become town.

Wiki says "or other kill"

I noez. I missed a detail.

Now bang will scumread me.

[-Grey-]

Are you sure you are still mafia? Can you check your inbox?

I'm still mafia. I get email and pop up notifications on pm.

[-Grey-]

Also grey, as you are still mafia, isn't what you are doing right now technically against your current wincon

Considering I don't know who else is mafia, no.

All I can do is speculate. I'm not sacrificing my team.

[-Grey-]

@grey that means you don't need to be immediately lynched.

I can agree with this, if we have strong evidence for another scum lynch.

Otherwise, my lynch is basically a NL with the benefit of reducing scum.

[-Grey-]

{Vaxkiller, Spade Ace}
{Gamma Emerald, alban}
{Not Mafia, davesaz}
{Kop}
{bangthemafia}

[-Grey-]

I'm actually tempted to review bang's play and consider a push.

[-Grey-]

15 is slimy. bang accuses me of outing PR's then fishes for those same PR's to cc me. On top of that, he votes RC instead of me which makes absolutely no sense at all to me.

His prod dodge in 228 originally had me thinking he was lying low, but he wasn't active anywhere else on the site during that timeframe so he gets a pass on that.

His attempt at hairsplitting in 239 doesn't sit right with me. It's an overly defensive response to a simple deduction. Also, he seems to use lynching as a weapon to threaten those who suspect him.

269, he questions why Spade would claim his wincon, but he's not at all curious about Spade's antitown power?

270/274 - possible S/S interaction? Anyone?

277, he butters Gamma a little unnecessarily (others had already brought up opinions and questions for others based on discards). Also, he admits my deduction from his initial post was correct.

285 is NAI. It could come from any alignment at all. Nothing town or scum in there.

291, he paints town as needing less effort than scum. This is factually untrue, but I can't really say whether that post comes from a scum mindset or if he's just really bad at town.

296, he continues trying to split hairs and ignoring the fact that the only PR's town needs to worry about outting are town PR's. That he was objecting to me possibly outing PR's implied that he was concerned that I was risking town power, which is why his immediate vote for RC in the same post he called me out made his entire post look scummy as hell.

341, he had

nothing

he wanted to accomplish when he questioned me in 15. I'm sorry, but that's not town. Town asks questions to gamesolve and sort alignments. bang admitted he was doing neither. Also, putting the two players who are interacting with him the most as strong town, while simultaneously listing the player his strongtown read replaced as nullscum. Very scummy. No mention of davesaz in his reads.

386, he hints at suspicion towards both of his strong town reads, but isn't actively trying to nail down those reads. His response to Spade's question about the self-vote was a deflection. Why didn't he just give his opinion on it right there instead of make an excuse to ignore it?

397 seems AtEish; excuses

398 seems townish

399 is something I want to come back to if/when bang does die.

400 Spade's first non-RVS vote was actually me, but he completely ignored that.

500, desperation to shade

559, he admits it's his style to push for the lynch of those who scumreads him as scum... and then votes for Spade... who is scumreading him!

587 criticizes Spade for "buttering" me, and appeals to me in the same post. Meh feels.

619, trying to keep town pitted against each other (response to 602)

629, he goes from abrasiveness to appeasing, which feels like cogdiss. Either approach on its own might have been genuine, but they're two conflicting states of mind.

691

RED FLAG

- bang was so sold on Spade being scum, but completely buys an unverifiable claim that makes for an excellent fake claim. Why? Because he knew it would simply make it that much easier to lynch him for being negative utility.

765, there is no pro-town reason to massclaim. Doing so only gives scum a roadmap for their kills.

772, where was that skepticism of Spade's claim when he first made it?

804, paints laziness as maliciousness

I'd go so far as to say a bang scum flip confirms Spade town.

VOTE: bangthemafia

[-Grey-]

Well, I'd say a bang mafia flip confirms Spade not!Mafia.

There IS Werewolf/Alien/etc

[-Grey-]

Lololol, pushing lurker lynches is a classic scum move.

[-Grey-]

15 is slimy. bang accuses me of outing PR's then fishes for those same PR's to cc me. On top of that, he votes RC instead of me which makes absolutely no sense at all to me.

His attempt at hairsplitting in 239 doesn't sit right with me. It's an overly defensive response to a simple deduction. Also, he seems to use lynching as a weapon to threaten those who suspect him.

269, he questions why Spade would claim his wincon, but he's not at all curious about Spade's antitown power?

270/274 - possible S/S interaction? Anyone?

277, he butters Gamma a little unnecessarily (others had already brought up opinions and questions for others based on discards). Also, he admits my deduction from his initial post was correct.

296, he continues trying to split hairs and ignoring the fact that the only PR's town needs to worry about outting are town PR's. That he was objecting to me possibly outing PR's implied that he was concerned that I was risking town power, which is why his immediate vote for RC in the same post he called me out made his entire post look scummy as hell.

341,

RED FLAG

he had

nothing

he wanted to accomplish when he questioned me in 15. I'm sorry, but that's not town. Town asks questions to gamesolve and sort alignments. bang admitted he was doing neither. Also, putting the two players who are interacting with him the most as strong town, while simultaneously listing the player his strongtown read replaced as nullscum. Very scummy. No mention of davesaz in his reads.

386,

RED FLAG

he hints at suspicion towards both of his strong town reads, but isn't actively trying to nail down those reads. His response to Spade's question about the self-vote was a deflection. Why didn't he just give his opinion on it right there instead of make an excuse to ignore it?

397 seems AtEish; excuses

500, desperation to shade

559, he admits it's his style to push for the lynch of those who scumreads him as scum... and then votes for Spade... who is scumreading him!

587 criticizes Spade for "buttering" me, and appeals to me in the same post. Meh feels.

619, trying to keep town pitted against each other (response to 602)

629,

RED FLAG

he goes from abrasiveness to appeasing, which feels like cogdiss. Either approach on its own might have been genuine, but they're two conflicting states of mind.

691

RED FLAG

- bang was so sold on Spade being scum, but completely buys an unverifiable claim that makes for an excellent fake claim. Why? Because he knew it would simply make it that much easier to lynch him for being negative utility.

765,

RED FLAG

there is no pro-town reason to massclaim. Doing so only gives scum a roadmap for their kills.

772, where was that skepticism of Spade's claim when he first made it?

804, paints laziness as maliciousness

There's a more manageable list. Red flags are the particularly troublesome items.

[-Grey-]

Gamma, why did you claim now? There was no pressure to reveal. In fact, if you are a survivor, you were doing a pretty good job till the revelation. Also, why would you give up a mild investigative role and want to be a survivor? If the idea was to play alone or a small faction, why did you give up now?

My guess is he chose lyncher.

If a lyncher's target is killed via means other than lynch, the lyncher is converted into a Survivor.

[-Grey-]

If NM was a town player who targeted me at night and got his alignment converted, then we have one less town player. His 'why havent we killed 'the black goo' statement makes sense then.

No it doesn't.

If he's culted, he would want you left alive because it's his best chance to win.

[-Grey-]

Nah, he's not really fishing for a lynch.

He's just NM.

[-Grey-]

Even if he changed alignment, why reveal role at this point in the game?

Decreases the likelihood he'll be NK'ed.

There are plenty of other lynch targets, so he knows he isn't a priority.

[-Grey-]

You and Gamma have revealed your roles at random points in the game.

There's nothing random about my reveal at all.

Haven't you learned, yet? Just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.

[-Grey-]

Kinda silly to expect an answer when no question exists.

Don't blame

me

because

you

make assumptions.

[-Grey-]

Try it in a non-accusatory manner and you'll find I'll actually answer things.

[-Grey-]

If I didn't want to work with you, alban, I wouldn't be reaching out to you here.

[-Grey-]

I claimed because town's majority may be at risk and my role has the ability to offset further damage to town's majority.

As long as we can keep lynching scum, town can maintain its majority without sacrificing me, but if we mislynch once, then I need to be lynched immediately after.

Unlike most PR's, I have nothing to fear from scum because they aren't likely to NK me since it won't kill me... until after I'm converted. That's why I want to keep lynching probable scum until we mislynch.

[-Grey-]

Nope, and I already said why.

[-Grey-]

Lol, I can see another possibility as to why he'd choose survivor.

Risky, but it would be fun with the right partner.

[-Grey-]

@mod: please prod davesaz

[-Grey-]

Get in here and say words, people!

[-Grey-]

Can't ask more than that, I suppose.

[-Grey-]

Spade has been playing the objectively towniest game out of all of us.

I refuse to support his lynch over obvscum bang.

[-Grey-]

He's black goo

That means he's town.

[-Grey-]

That makes cult aligned players

Only reflexively.

Just don't target him. Problem solved.

He's not an active threat. Scum is the active threat.

Bang is scum.

[-Grey-]

Lynching a player you fully believe to be town simply because of their negative utility is doing scum's job for them.

Stop doing scum's job.

[-Grey-]

I think bang is just new, I'd lynch you before a scumread anyway, we don't know how many scum there are so it's best to make you town earlier rather than later

You're his buddy, so of course you're gonna say that.

I still have to try, though.

[-Grey-]

Grey, did you case bang?

Extensively, and recently.

[-Grey-]

843 is the TL; DR of my case.

[-Grey-]

[-Grey-]

L-2

Bus now for max towncred.

[-Grey-]

Spade,
Not ambiguous. Still suspect you. Your claim appears fake. My vote stays on you.

Spade is a vanity wagon unless you can tell me why my case on bang has no merit.

Bang is caught scum, whereas Spade "might be" scum. Well guess what? All of us "might be" scum.

Bang IS scum.

[-Grey-]

He has no incentive to respond to the case unless there is pressure on him.

[-Grey-]

You still haven't addressed my case.

[-Grey-]

And by the way scum defended me, I feel he is a townie too.

I don't even know wtf you're saying here.

[-Grey-]

Then he suddenly comes up with a claim, that can't be verified, and town doesnt want to touch. Well great, if he is really a town.

You bought his claim when he made it.

If you were actually scumreading him, you'd have had those questions immediately, not seventy posts later.

[-Grey-]

843 is the TL; DR of my case.

I see your case, but reading bang's iso with no preset alignment and making no assumptions about

correctness

, it looks reasonably towny to me.
I'm willing to go back to the "red flags" in context to see if a scum motivation is more apparent in that light.

Dude, he straight up admitted playing to his scum playstyle, lol.

[-Grey-]

Dont push me to thinking you r not.

You were doing SO WELL with your post until the little threat at the end.

I don't respond well to threats.

[-Grey-]

For that you need to be considerate and sensitive enough to realize i m still in V/LA.

I'm good with waiting as long as I know it's coming bro.

You were posting, so I mentioned it.

[-Grey-]

Dont push me to thinking you r not.

You were doing SO WELL with your post until the little threat at the end.

I don't respond well to threats.

This is why you harm town. Come out of ur attitude and tell the town if u agree with me on something just the way you took pains to create that loong post to make a case on me.

You don't get to claim the moral high ground after threatening me.

[-Grey-]

Sorry about the signature part. Either you changed yours or it was someone else's.

Yeah like... a week ago.

[-Grey-]

Cool your jets, alban.

I for one am waiting on bang's response to my case. You know, since I'm not interested in the reason for the lynch and all.

[-Grey-]

ok

Listen here you cheeky shit, I've done a hell of a lot more to lynch scum than you have, so you can lose the 'tude.

[-Grey-]

Any and all PT's will be open throughout the course of day.

Btw do keep in mind that scum have daychat.

Okay.

What does that tell us?

[-Grey-]

Maybe not to trust associatives too much.

In situations like lylo, scum can coordinate a mass lynch.

1) Day chat suggests there will be less associatives because they don't need to crosstalk in game thread.

2) We're not likely to know when it's LyLo until it's too late anyway so we should treat everyday like LyLo.

[-Grey-]

And someone with night actions could target Spade and tell us the next day if he is lying.

DO NOT FUCKING DO THIS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

[-Grey-]

VOTE: Grey

[-Grey-]

Go read the wiki instead of expecting everybody to spoon-feed you.

[-Grey-]

Un-lynchable scum? This isn't worst idea mafia. Even 1 shot unlynchable is crazy OP.

google great idea mafia for roles

Pretty sure there is actually, I just think it's dumb to have these questions shitting up the thread when the wiki link is in the op.

[-Grey-]

Let's just put this shit to bed right the fuck now.

If I was an Alien 1-shot unlynchable, the timing of my claim would make no sense.

I was under zero pressure to claim. I had nothing whatsoever to gain by it.

My play had been Saulus through and through.

[-Grey-]

I went and checked wiki, simple. Stop throwing shade for no rhyme and reason, ok? Since Grey will not flip, I was thinking whether i shud believe he is 100% conf town

The only role that's 100% conftown is Innocent Child, but you could have gotten that information without shading me.

I never once suggested anyone treat me like conftown.

[-Grey-]

I didn't have time to really speak in bang's big ass wall, but I have to say that he came across as townie in what I did read.

Felt I should mention that before the thread is locked in case I don't see tomorrow

[-Grey-]

I didnt mean a town!bang. I meant any town memeber. A town member would have asked, 'is there any other role that could be unlynchable like the saulus' and not 'is there any one shot unlynchable'.

That's overanalyzing to the point of projecting.

Don't do that.

I know, I know. I do it too sometimes. Never said I was perfect.

[-Grey-]

And someone with night actions could target Spade and tell us the next day if he is lying.

DO NOT FUCKING DO THIS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

Sticking with This.

Cults do not have my flexibility. They'll be modkilled if they game throw.

[-Grey-]

@bang there is a difference between a saulus's wincon ambiguity and a cult players wincon

No there is not. Else mod would hav clearly responded when I asked this clarification. If any night action townie reads my post, they will realize what i m saying

Yes there is.

I have two different wincons I can pursue. Cult only has one.

[-Grey-]

Warning

: A truthful culted claim will put you at risk for being modkilled for playing against your wincon.

Do not target the freaking goo.

[-Grey-]

Alternative: Lynch the 'goo'

I'm hammered already.

[-Grey-]

Protect Dave, not me.

I'm just vanilla now

[-Grey-]

In b4 lock

[-Grey-]

kekeke

[-Grey-]

Protect Dave, not me.

I'm just vanilla now

Sadness.

Spade death has to be a vig shot. He was the defacto lynch today.

I wonder why there wasn't a second kill n1 when we lynched scum d1 though. That seems suboptimal, unless dave successfully protected someone.

We've only lost three town to two scum (due to conversion), so we're still in decent shape.

[-Grey-]

That's... actually not a terrible vote.

But I want to see your reasons before I give mine.

[-Grey-]

That's... actually not a terrible vote.

But I want to see your reasons before I give mine.

Eh, scratch that. My response was hasty after a quick skim on his ISO, but that's superficial stuff.

Vax looks pretty town to me.

[-Grey-]

Kop, who is scum?

[-Grey-]

{Vaxkiller}
{Gamma Emerald, alban}
{Not Mafia, bangthemafia}
{Kop}

Not interested in lynching top two lines. bang looked better after that wall post, but I didn't really have the time to dig into it due to everything that was going on.

Kop, why are you scumreading alban? Specifics, please. Broad generalizations won't do you any favors.

[-Grey-]

@Grey, so here are my responses to your main case post. Try to read this with an unbiased mind if you really want a response from me. You will understand it better if you remember one thing that I have repeatedly said. As town I many times second guess myself. I tend to think "Is this completely impossible to come from a townie?" At times I have burnt my hands due to this. But thats me. So whenever possible I will try to give benefit of doubt to others.

This reach out is towny.

But then there will be someone about whom I do get fixated as scumreads.

I really like this.

I'd have expected something more along the lines of a passive aggressive accusation about my tunneling, if he was scum.

Instead, he identified with it. It reads genuine.

But I never FISHED for PRs. Read the post again. The only guys who would know you were lying would be the 2 you mentioned. So I appealed to them to expose you if you were lying. That would happen ONLY if they were NOT PRs. SO hows that fishing?

Read my post again. I didn't say you were fishing for PR's, I said you were fishing for then to cc me. Semantics, just clarifying.

It was RVS and I voted for RC because he gave a shitty reason to vote alban. Who votes someone for being V/LA?

Who doesn't vote someone they accuse of PR fishing?

There are some things which players learn. In my first game, I was a scum with Charl. Charl lied and people kept thinking he cant lie so blatantly. When I joined dead PT, someone said this is the best example- Lynch all liers. I remembered that when you said you lied. Hows that AI?

Policy votes as a whole are antitown. Who do you think really gets the most utility out of a LaL PL?

Scum. There are very town reasons to lie. If PR's are always honest, they become a sitting duck for scum.

No single action is ALWAYS scum indicative. Learn to be more patient and discover the "why".

My mistake that I didnt notice Gamma was a replacement of culted. I townread Gamma coz of her interaction and null-to-scum read Culted because of lurking not realizing culted was already replaced out. Since I counted and there were already 11 names, I just forgot about Daves. Hows that scummy, dude? A scum would take lot of time and caution in preparing their responses and would never let such silly inconsistencies creep in. So for Christ's sake!

Holy crap is this frustration town.

Think whatever you want. Its also called frustration with fellow townies who are not ready to listen to you. Even now, whats happening is the little time I get, gets spent answering to bullshit like this. Bullshit because I know I am a townie. Instead of OR ATLEAST in addition to making this case on me, why dont you respond to the observations I made about Spade and why I find him scummy, about my suggestion of a townie PR deliberately targetting Spade at night and then telling the town the outcome etc etc?

Yet as frustrated as I've made him, he continues to reach out.

Not responding to more because it would just devolve into academic debate.

Bang goes up in my reads.

[-Grey-]

I'm feeling pocketed.

I need to reread people.

[-Grey-]

I think Scum is in the town discards.

bang is obvtown
Alban looked better d2, and seriously, who turns down Cupid as scum? Twofer kills are amazing.

[-Grey-]

Bang!

Buddy!

Buddy buddy buddy bang!

[-Grey-]

Do you mean Spade was town vig shot?

Yes.

Spade was a PL today. Him being shot last night is textbook town vig.

Scum never shoots someone that is just going to be lynched.

[-Grey-]

What are your thoughts on who would have killed Daves.

Do not pursue this line of questioning.

Outting the vig just makes them NK bait.

[-Grey-]

@Grey, and Alban, trust me, if you are town, dont waste your time on me. Scum is in the remaining 4 for sure.

Keep reading. You're a solid townread of mine now.

[-Grey-]

@Grey, what makes you clear Vax, Gamma and Alban? Anything specific?

Vax and Gamma have been looking pretty town, but I need to reread them.

Alban I feel a bit more solid on my townread, mostly because what he discarded was the golden ticket for scum.

If he had chosen Mafia Cupid, we'd have had five scum nk's after tonight instead of three, even if he were lynched today.

It's a stupid good role for scum.

[-Grey-]

Also what makes you suspect Kop and NM?

Minimal activity, mostly. It's like scum is just riding this out and letting town cannibalize itself.

[-Grey-]

What are your thoughts on who would have killed Daves.

Do not pursue this line of questioning.

Outting the vig just makes them NK bait.

Oh. Dave. Derp, was still thinking about the vig shot.

As far as the NK, that's going to be hard to pin down.

Dave wasn't exactly subtle about being important to town.

[-Grey-]

I'm actually kinda leaning against the possibility of third party.

It's a hard alignment to win with.

Since the game is still going, I'd assume either 3/2/2 or 4/3 as worst case scenarios.

[-Grey-]

If Vanilla Town or Mafia Goon was discarded, third party just might be possible... but with these discards I highly doubt it.

[-Grey-]

I'm actually kinda leaning against the possibility of third party.

It's a hard alignment to win with.

Since the game is still going, I'd assume either

3/2/2

4/2/1 or 4/3 as worst case scenarios.

Fixed.

Werewolf was discarded a lot.

We are likely to have four town, imho.

[-Grey-]

Vax is nowhere near being cleared by his discard.

Lover is a loser role. Worse than VT.

[-Grey-]

Vax is nowhere near being cleared by his discard.

Lover is a loser role. Worse than VT.

Exactly my point. Its so lowly a role that someone could very well have kept VT discarding Lover.

But if a powerful /interesting role was discarded, the kept role either had to be even more powerful/interesting or had to be a scum

So? Goon is better than Lover too.

Lover discard means nothing.

[-Grey-]

COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOW A TINY BIT OF INTEREST IN THIS GAME???

[-Grey-]

I'm not voting a lurker in what might very well be LyLo without at least seeing some kind of content.

[-Grey-]

Greys reads SHOULD change now that he is full fledged town. I find it disconcerting that our reads were so similar when he was scum tho.

I've been playing a town game from the beginning because my wincon was the same as town's regardless of my initial wincon in my role pm.

I figured I'd either be NKed or lynched, so I began playing to my final alignment wincon directly on d1.

Unless you can point out where I was less than genuine in my pushes and reads, I think my play speaks for itself.

[-Grey-]

Not_Mafia's discard was Evangelistic townie. Thats almost a negative utility townie. So even he might hav gone for VT. I will focus more on Gamma and Kop as of now.

Why are you aiming that he would go for VT?

He might not have had that option

Not_Mafia and Vax both discarded roles that were objectively worse than scum roles, taking into account this is a Greater Idea format.

Why are you "clearing" them?

[-Grey-]

Not_Mafia's discard was Evangelistic townie. Thats almost a negative utility townie. So even he might hav gone for VT. I will focus more on Gamma and Kop as of now.

Why are you assuming that he would go for VT?

He might not have had that option

Not_Mafia and Vax both discarded roles that were objectively worse than scum roles, taking into account this is a Greater Idea format.

Why are you "clearing" them?

Edit

[-Grey-]

I can see bang's slight change but I'm still not sure on him yet. His posts today are very indicative of game solving and trying to figure things out, but I have a hard time buying it.

He's town and trying, but he's obviously grasping his along in the dark.

[-Grey-]

Grasping his way* along

[-Grey-]

VOTE: Not Mafia

This is not an OMGUS vote or a lurker vote. Not mafia is scum.

On a scale of 1 to Scum, how 10 is Not Mafia?

[-Grey-]

Betelgeuse!

[-Grey-]

Can the voices in my head replace in for them?

[-Grey-]

What made you watch Davesaz?

Protect Dave, not me.

I'm just vanilla now

Here is the quote that made me rethink dave.

[-Grey-]

I am Mafia,but Charloux was my only partner, I'm pretty Vax is wolf and probably has a partner, if we lynch Vax you can tell me who to NK

Lol no.

Vax MIGHT be a wolf. You're CLAIMED mafia.

Find scum, Lynch scum.

You're the only acceptable lynch today. If you're the last mafia, that's your tough luck.

[-Grey-]

Town vig should NOT claim here.

There is NO reason to think they should. It accomplishes no town goals when we already have a confirmed scum lynch.

Even speculating as to who they are is antitown.

Drop the vig talk. Don't do scum's job for them.

[-Grey-]

Presence of town Vig almost surely tells us we hav only 1 killing scum faction.
Absence means 2 factions.

The Spade kill was a vig kill. End of story.

Scum would not have removed a free mislynch from the game.

[-Grey-]

If there are 2 factions, thats the precise reason town has still not lost.

The fact the game is ongoing is the precise reason we have not lost.

[-Grey-]

The moment we lynch NM, if he is speaking truth, we will eliminate 1 faction- we will be helping the other faction by doing their job for them through our lynch.

What has happened in this game to suggest a second scum faction?

Nothing whatsoever.

NM is scaremongering.

[-Grey-]

Presence of town Vig almost surely tells us we hav only 1 killing scum faction.
Absence means 2 factions.

The Spade kill was a vig kill. End of story.

Scum would not have removed a free mislynch from the game.

Scum don't want cult spreading either

Scum knows town would kill the goo. He was the defacto lynch today.

Not buying your bs.

[-Grey-]

Carnelian, say words!

[-Grey-]

{alban, bangthemafia}
{Vaxkiller}
{}
{Kop, Carnelian}

Carnelian subbing in and not engaging is a bad look. She needs to make some time for this game if she's going to replace into it.

[-Grey-]

Also, if there is a vig between Kop/Carnelian, I think it's obvious that one needs to vig the other tonight and claim tomorrow.

[-Grey-]

(If someone besides one of those two is vig, shoot one of those two but DO NOT claim immediately tomorrow)

[-Grey-]

He's not a cop

What does he get out of lying about it?

It's not like he's trying to dodge a hammer.

Shot could be fake still, also trolling

This can be shot too.

Saying RC was trolling when his claim made perfect sense. He's not good enough for the noose. He needs a bullet.

Vig, you should have listened to me d1.

[-Grey-]

Presence of town Vig almost surely tells us we hav only 1 killing scum faction.
Absence means 2 factions.

The Spade kill was a vig kill. End of story.

Scum would not have removed a free mislynch from the game.

Scum don't want cult spreading either

True! Important point

You being so quick to buy into scum rhetoric gives me bad feels.

The goo was outed, so nobody else was going to be culted.

Not even Scum chooses to be culted voluntarily, let alone town power roles.

[-Grey-]

Was thinking of weird roles like redirector, bus driver etc that might make someone unknowingly target Goo.

That would never happen because it would cult the redirector.

[-Grey-]

@

mod

: Please prod Carnelian

[-Grey-]

Whoa.

Like a brick, it dawned on me.

If NM is wanting to stop werewolves from winning, it might actually be worth letting him live

one

night.

Here's what I'm thinking...

Town vig claims..

Vig and NM are assigned two names to shoot so there is no doubling up on the same player.

We lynch Vaxkiller.


Thoughts?

[-Grey-]

Idk man, I'm considering everything because this shit is just coming too easily all of a sudden so there has to be something we're missing.

[-Grey-]

VOTE: NM

Lynch scum and chew gum.

[-Grey-]

Well I'll be damned. Lol

[-Grey-]

Excellent job, wolves.

Ty for modding, Ari & Transcend!

[-Grey-]

-Grey- area

[-Grey-]

It's considered varying alignment, not town >.>

Any alignment was varying with cult in play.

[-Grey-]

Well i'll be damned. I knew there were werewolves, but i didn't expect more than 2 of em. What a plot twist, love it!
Interesting game to watch and be a part of, hope we get another Great idea game soon.
The only thing that irritated me in this game apart from RC was this shitty lie

If there is a werewolf faction and he/they win then we are the ones who made a shitty choice Grey.

Neh. I dislike playing scum. If I have the option to play town, I choose it.

Shame on you Grey, shame.on.you!

I DID choose town!

[-Grey-]

Every game, my reads are terribad.

Every. Game.

The one game I depend on my reads being shit, I nail the entire mafia team as scum.

[-Grey-]

Well, aside from Charloux. That was a YOLO push that I was praying would flip town vig.

[-Grey-]

And then when you had the choice to continue playing as either town/scum you chose the latter. Yet you still claim that you always want to play as town. My trust in you has diminished Grey.

I was forced to choose between two roles that would ultimately end up playing to a scum wincon.

There was no choosing to remain town.

[-Grey-]

I correctly called N_M and Grey as scum too

I was town when you called me scum.

Your read was incorrect!

[-Grey-]

WAS TOO

[-Grey-]

Judas is a 3p role, it's not town aligned.

Wrong answer.

Judas begins the game town-aligned.

[-Grey-]

[-Grey-]

Greatest Idea is even more fun than Greater Idea.

[-Grey-]

I don't mod.

Phone poster.