Open 671: Greater Idea - OVER

[Kop]

8 pages to read. I shall do that once I am finished with work this afternoon.

[Kop]

The claim on page 1, it's a joke and should be taken as that. I don't think anyone in a town frame of mind, especially with partners would out themselves in that manner. Unless it was pre-organized before hand, which I very highly doubt anyone would do. Even if that role exist (I was unaware of such a role) it has to be taken not gospel.

Anyone jumping on that claim and berating it, is more likely to come from scum rather than town, as scum always look for a easy route to push without hindering much resistance. Especially when the 2 names mentioned in that claim, didn't back it up, gives scum more impetus to push further into it.

#15 Bang jumped straight onto it, but would not put a hand to vote it, especially with the mentality he demonstrated in that particular post. He was stancing that he was ready to go at it, but jumped onto RC.

The next few pages was aimed mostly at Spades confusion of the Wild Card role. I'm not sure what his mentality was when he decided to even come out with such a statement, but then still misunderstand the whole point of what is going on. Why come out claiming what you got?

RC then hogs a page or two by tunnelling NM for a reason I don't think I saw. I've seen town tunnel hard, but I've also seen scum do it also. What RC is doing up to page 6 of this game, is anti town and I don't agree with it. NM up to page 7 hasn't done anything to warrant being scum read so heavy from one person. Then there is the fake day vigging for reactions, doesn't alter my read on RC.

Page 7 Nice little attack from Alban without overly commiting then retreating, after all of that, I don't think you achieved anything in what you were aiming for. And ran out of ideas of what you were doing.

Right now, I'd lynch RC he is by far the scummiest player. I just don't see a town player taking his stance, and the self voting that just takes the biscuit. I don't think I've ever seen him self vote in such a manner, it's not even frustration, he's blaming everyone else and claims towns shit because nobody is willing to take him seriously, he's not even providing a case to follow, and it's down to the fact, there isn't even a case. How can town be shit if there is no case to follow? Or is it because your name is RC we all have to follow like sheep?

Second in the list to lynch would be Alban, I find it scummy that he put one foot forward then retreated softly because the case wasn't what he thought he could have presented.

[Kop]

Okay so the main reason I decided to hop in here was to play a Greater Idea game in forum style, since I have experience with this setup in chat mafia.
One thing I'd like to mention is

scummy discards

. There are two forms: initial and claimed. Initial scummy discards are when someone discards a very powerful role. It suggests they found a better (usually scum) role. Claimed ones are where the claimed role is less fun to play then the discard, suggesting the claim is fake.
Also, I'm not sure if this is the case, but

usually

roles are not repeated. So the Parrot that is discarded in the OP cannot be held by another player.

I would guess you are correct on the bottom line. All the greater/greatest mafia games I've participated, it all gets drawn up and given out, if there's only one card for a certain role, anyone who claims it and no counter claim, you can presume that guy is telling the truth. Unless he's taken a massive gamble and claimed it but isn't actually in the game, a high risk for scum, but low risk to survive since it could actually be a role that could detriment any other faction in the game.

[Kop]

I am surprised you find her self-vote suspicious enough to vote for her when town!you has done it

so many times

out of frustration in our games. Bang can confirm a frustrated town!Spade's predisposition to self-vote.

Who knows what affiliation she is, but I find it suspicious that you won't give her that leeway and acknowledge that a town can be driven to self-vote.

You must he confusing me with someone else. I have never selfvoted ever. And if bang confirms that, he is scum along with you.

I have never played with RC. But I doubt whether a person with his level of experience in MS would resort to such 'frustrated' displays especially when i dont find anything for them to be frustrated about.

RC hasn't even made a proper case against NM other than day NM might be a lyncher.

*i have never selfvoted ever as TOWN

That's a blatant lie or a case of bad memory. I don't understand why scum!you would withhold information like this especially when Bang is there to confirm this. Let's wait for Bang to show up. But wait, if he doesn't say what you want, he is a scum too? So, in essence whoever may disagree with you is scum.

I haven't ISO'd him to see if he was frustrated. I don't remember his game too. But assuming that he wasn't frustrated, and that town!RC will not self-vote out of frustration, it still goes against your conclusion that scum!RC will self-vote, especially given 'his level of experience' and 'when i dont find anything for them to be frustrated about'.

So, it's still an opportunistic vote.

P-edit: I see you have unvoted. But this is still very quite suspicious.

Can you back the point up that it's a blatant lie, or do we have to wait for Bangthemafia to come?

[Kop]

Null to scum lean- Culted, RC

Explain these, please.

Actually nothing much. My scum reads hav been quite bad in this game. Culted, because of lurking largely and the role he discarded. But Gamma replacement in the slot seems townie. But then there is also this buddying between you and him, my 2 strong townreads.

Snipped. Referenced ongoing games. Do not do this again. ~T

So I really dont know. I m not giving clean chit to you/GE either.

RC from beginning has behaved erratically. Using a V/LA as excuse to vote, tunnelling on NM are few reasons. But I keep second guessing myself that why would a scum!RC make himself so conspicupus by tunnelling on NM.

So I really dont know if my direction is right.

You can't throw that comment around right now about your scum reads being bad in this game. Everybody will have bad scum reads since the games only a few days old, and only 340 odd posts made, no reads are going to be a dead cert, and nobody is going to have a high percentage rate of having correct scum reads. The only way you are going to know if your scum reads are entirely terrible is the fact when you have a full phase done with, bodies flipped, for you to then know for sure whether they are actually good reads, or bad reads.

I think this is you flimsying because you were asked to explain those reads and you couldn't back it up with any given facts, or any posts that pinged for you to have that read. Any reads you have can be backed up, or at least explained with a post that gave you that feeling. Especially scum reads.

VOTE: Bangthemafia

[Kop]

VOTE: charloux

[Kop]

I'm back now, let me catch up.

[Kop]

I'm also worried about Kop lurking. He was pretty silent (with the exception of his vote) after the RC flip too, and with a massive 6 posts, I cant get a read.

He's my second guess for bussing scum.

I've played enough of these games to know that a day shot vigilante always 9 times out of 10 flips scum, I've very rarely seen a town day vigilante chosen in these setups.

I got offered it once with another role, I chose the other role simply because the day shot does not prove my alignment, and if I shoot incorrectly, I will be high up on the chopping board.

And all of that to go with Charloux behaviour, it only led to that being a scum claim that needed lynching.

[Kop]

Maybe. But why and how would scum presume that Lowell was an investigative role. He just said Dave was his guy for day 2. That could just mean he wanted keep Dave for lynching on day 2 and focus on Charl day 1. Thats exactly what I thought about Spade. I found him scummy but wanted to lynch Charl first.

It's scum's job to find investigative roles. "My guy for d2" raised all kinds of PR flags for me because it implies acting on results, and I'm town. So I know scum had him pegged.

It does seem a obvious frame job, but Lowell saying what he did, does give a strong impression that he has something that could harm scum a great deal. This would would mean that scum regardless if it frames them or not, need him out of the game and WIFOM there way out of it.

It doesn't specifically imply investigative, as such, but it does come across as him having something that would harm them.

[Kop]

My reads so far. More for myself so that I don't have to re-read:
Town
Vax (reasonable, logical), NM (looks like in a tvt with RC)

Null
Bang (mixed reactions on his posts), Dave, Kop & Gamma (no clear reads on them), Grey (illogical, selective blindness towards Spade's scumtells. scumleaning)

Scum
Spade (very opportunistic. especially with buddying and jumping the votes wherever the wagon is going)

VOTE: Spade

Will elaborate in 24 hours.

Pedit: You are an idiot, Grey.

Why is he a idiot? That doesn't tell me anything.

I think grey has been making some decent points, might be wayward but decent points considering.

[Kop]

589 is not that surprising by itself, but just 10 posts after 579, it's definitely surprising. He puts you and me in the same category as scums. And then something happens, and he appeals to you, but not to me. I am wondering what was it? Was it coz you were posting and I was absent since day 2. Dunno. He should explain that though.

I am confused about Spade coz the more I think, the more I think this is not at all how he plays. My overall impression of Spade is this (and this is not necessarily negative): I think he has researched a lot about how to play on mafiascum and his style is also shaped a lot by the games he has played here. I also think he is playing a lot by the book, trying to play more as is expected of a player and less as himself, and has generated a style for himself that is markedly different from the way he used to play with us (which I think was way too effective than the way he is playing now). That means I (and you too I am guessing) have no handle on him. It's possible that that's the reason I am finding him scummy.

On the other hand, there are still many points about him this game that have nothing to do with style, and more to do with the content and intent of his posts. For example, starting with his initial vote on RC (for his self-vote) in 346, trying to implicate me in 353 for suggesting RC could be frustrated, the language of denial of self-voting in 359, and blatantly sheeping Grey throughout. He finding me scummy coz of the reasons he mentions in the earlier posts as well as in 393 and 394 are too simplistic for him. Just as I know him, he knows my game.

This is why I am confused about him. But I am still voting for him coz I would expect more from a player of his level, regardless of whether he is scum or town. For someone to playing a markedly different (and simplistic) game, there's more possibility of him being a scum than town.

Ok you've expanded on the grey point, I have seen that, but that could be his playstyle, he does make decent points that prevents me from scum reading him at this point. Think there is more issues out there than someone is virtually entering a tunnel.

As for your points about Spade, I disagree with this. People tend to get stuck in the mentality of scum reading someone purely on meta, or playstyle. This isn't how he normally plays, blah blah blah, if that's the main reason you scum read him then I can't agree. (I'm aware at this point he didn't claim that he was a black goo). People develop there games and evolve, and as they evolve, they come different to what your accustomed too, how can you specifically scum read him based on this?

Even if it's gone down being generic to playing like a text book, it's NAI.

[Kop]

VOTE: Grey

Ideas good but this vote stinks. Plenty of talking before, no comments on anything, waltz in with a vote that is leaning towards.

[Kop]

The claim on page 1, it's a joke and should be taken as that. I don't think anyone in a town frame of mind, especially with partners would out themselves in that manner. Unless it was pre-organized before hand, which I very highly doubt anyone would do. Even if that role exist (I was unaware of such a role) it has to be taken not gospel.

Anyone jumping on that claim and berating it, is more likely to come from scum rather than town, as scum always look for a easy route to push without hindering much resistance. Especially when the 2 names mentioned in that claim, didn't back it up, gives scum more impetus to push further into it.

I might be grasping at straws here. This was Kop's first comment. He was defending your fake claim. Maybe cos he doesn't want you lynched as he knows you are a Salaus??

That wasn't defending it, it was clearly saying the claim was a joke. To come out right at the start, made it more of a joke to me in my eyes. Especially when lovers all die together, so from a town POV it wouldn't have happened like it did.

[Kop]

if I had to lynch someone right now, it would be either Grey or Alban.

Grey for confirmations, alban he's been setting himself up nicely and posturing that doesn't tell me that he's town.

[Kop]

Bang wouldn't be a bad shout.

[Kop]

Also we need to be careful now. Coz if anyone wants to be a cult, they would target u. These would be players who wanted to be scum but got both town roles. So those with town discards.

I don't think anyone will want to be a cult in between the game. Getting a wincon as a cult is quite difficult. So I doubt anyone would willing target me at night.

Cult doesn't have a nightkill, so they have to rely on mislynches, dodging death, and recruiting to win.

Nobody WANTS to be in a cult.

I agree i hav zero experience with cult. But I dont completely agred. Think of a player who wanted to play some anti town role but got both town cards. Black goo is like an angel to them.

Lack of night kill doesnt take away their fun of having anti town role, especially with a continuously increading chance of expanding faction

Black goo doesn't win with cult here

I think keeping him in the game isn't such a bad idea. I can't see scum or any active PR visiting him and his win con is to win with town.

Only way I can see scum targeting black goo is if they are suspected and the last remaining scum, and taking a chance at having a pop so they can join cult and go out winning.

[Kop]

Will get to this today.

[Kop]

But if bang is a town and i end up getting killed at night. Town could end up with just 2 members.

I don't see how you think you could end up being nightkilled, considering your role.

Do you seriously see scum shooting you?

[Kop]

Well, I'd say a bang mafia flip confirms Spade not!Mafia.

There IS Werewolf/Alien/etc

You are truely an idiot.

Dont do this. At the cost of Vaxkiller cringing again, I am a town.

Your 839 is nothing but a prejudiced view from tainted glass. Still will try to respond point by point by tonight.

If u r town convertible by kills as well as lynches, I prefer lynching Spade or anyone from the lurkers. I just hate lurkers. They help aggressive scum get into town leader roles.

I can see the point about the lurkers, but scum tend to rather go for lurkers as they don't expect a great deal of resistance from going down that route. Scum can't go for universal town reads, go for a lurker who's quiet, it doesn't have any negative effect.

Bang, outside of the 2 main topics of the day, who would you lynch outside of both Grey/Spade?

[Kop]

But if bang is a town and i end up getting killed at night. Town could end up with just 2 members.

I don't see how you think you could end up being nightkilled, considering your role.

Do you seriously see scum shooting you?

If a kill is attempted on a Black Goo, the killer will not change alignment.

If any other action is performed, the player's alignment will change and they will lose access to their Factional PTs should they have any.

Well that means the role isn't immune. So it is basically useless.

I failed to see that, apologies.

[Kop]

Spade made the choice to be negative utility town

No, he didn't.

He chose the wild card in hope to get something random, he got Black Goo. It's unfortunate that he got that, but he did.

He could have been given anything within the card deck, roles that could have been more useful, it was nothing but a stab in the dark.

[Kop]

L-2 is pressure.

And that L-2 pressure was only placed an hour ago. He might not have even seen he was put at L-2.

[Kop]

I'm here, apologies. Reading back.

[Kop]

{Vaxkiller}
{Gamma Emerald, alban}
{Not Mafia, bangthemafia}
{Kop}

Not interested in lynching top two lines. bang looked better after that wall post, but I didn't really have the time to dig into it due to everything that was going on.

Kop, why are you scumreading alban? Specifics, please. Broad generalizations won't do you any favors.

At the time I started scum reading Alban, he was posturing, where it seemed he was happy to pressure a wagon but not fully commit to it. He was stancing towards Spade with false logic and false reasoning, using anything within his merit not to look bad but at the same time appearing to have reads.

I also didn't like how he tried to explain himself in regards to yourself, people will disagree everytime, but the manner he revoked your questioning, I don't think he was willing to reach out, where town would give some hindsight to show that regardless of how wrong you are, or how you are playing, that they were town and are willing to listen.

[Kop]

Protect Dave, not me.

I'm just vanilla now

Sadness.

Spade death has to be a vig shot. He was the defacto lynch today.

I wonder why there wasn't a second kill n1 when we lynched scum d1 though. That seems suboptimal, unless dave successfully protected someone.

We've only lost three town to two scum (due to conversion), so we're still in decent shape.

Why are you confident that it was a vig shot? Is it because of the lack of night one deaths spelling it that way?

It might sound anti town, but at this stage of the game, if it was indeed a vig shot, I think it might not be a daft idea for the vig to come forward and claim that shot. We are potentially in either mylo or lylo depending on how many anti town players there are at this stage. We really need to put pencils to paper and find out what we're dealing with, and potentially how many converted players we have who may have visited Spade.

If the vig doesn't come forward, and claim that shot, it's either potentially it's a bad idea from me for a person to come and claim it, or there isn't actually a vigilante out there and it's a second scum faction who may have shot a player that Dave doctored or may have been roleblocked on night one.

[Kop]

Protect Dave, not me.

I'm just vanilla now

Sadness.

Spade death has to be a vig shot. He was the defacto lynch today.

I wonder why there wasn't a second kill n1 when we lynched scum d1 though. That seems suboptimal, unless dave successfully protected someone.

We've only lost three town to two scum (due to conversion), so we're still in decent shape.

Why are you confident that it was a vig shot? Is it because of the lack of night one deaths spelling it that way?

It might sound anti town, but at this stage of the game, if it was indeed a vig shot, I think it might not be a daft idea for the vig to come forward and claim that shot. We are potentially in either mylo or lylo depending on how many anti town players there are at this stage. We really need to put pencils to paper and find out what we're dealing with, and potentially how many converted players we have who may have visited Spade.

If the vig doesn't come forward, and claim that shot, it's either potentially it's a bad idea from me for a person to come and claim it, or there isn't actually a vigilante out there and it's a second scum faction who may have shot a player that Dave doctored or may have been roleblocked on night one.

Sorry grey, some points I've made you covered, and ignore the confidence bit, that does make sense to why it's a vig shot.

[Kop]

VOTE: Not Mafia

This is not an OMGUS vote or a lurker vote. Not mafia is scum.

On a scale of 1 to Scum, how 10 is Not Mafia?

10

I was hoping to not have to come out and explain it. I watched Davesaz last night. Not mafia visited him, now hes dead.

What made you watch Davesaz?

[Kop]

I am Mafia,but Charloux was my only partner, I'm pretty Vax is wolf and probably has a partner, if we lynch Vax you can tell me who to NK

Lol no.

Vax MIGHT be a wolf. You're CLAIMED mafia.

Find scum, Lynch scum.

You're the only acceptable lynch today. If you're the last mafia, that's your tough luck.

I agree with this, there's no leashing in any game. It's been done before, and it's detrimental. Scum trying to bargain with town in such a manner is trying to manipulate town to keep them alive so they can worm there way to achieve there win con.

With NM claim, even if he flips mafia seer, it doesn't clear Bang in my eyes. There's a potential that bang could be a partner with NM, NM sees you (grey) town reading him, this buys further into that investigation and Bang walks away smelling of roses.

Whilst yes Bang may be town read by some, this would further strengthen that read if NM does flip Mafia Seer.

[Kop]

Hang on. Something needs clearing up.

I've seen several instances where a mod only allows one action to be performed by one player in the scum team. If they roleblock for example, that player can't perform the kill.

@MOD is this the case in this game

[Kop]

Excellent watcher claim vax. Nice bluff

[Kop]

I swear there will be a game I'll roll a town role when I'm playing Lowell.