Newbie 1777: Wedding In Vegas! [Game Over]

[FireScreamer]

Anything the IC needs to do they can do on the first day. Its just a mechanism for people to have someone we can ask basic questions to while taking some pressure off the mod who is already putting lots of work into the game. Almost all of these kinds of questions can be answered in day 1 after which they are just like any other player. Judge people on the merits of their posting and not their experience. If you later need an answer to a mechanical question and Drixx has died you with get it either from one of us or the mod. The role of the IC is essentially just informational about the bare bones mechanics of mafia. The stuff you will pick up as you go along or may already know.

I view both sides of this as null tells to be honest. Though I feel there is a clear and correct way of looking at it I can easily see townies coming to a different conclusion via innocent means.

[UpTooLate]

Replacing Meduna as they have yet to pick up their role PM.

[UpTooLate]

Vote Count 1.04

[0]MMM -
[0]Firescreamer -
[0]Meduna -
[0]Epid -
[0]JenLew -
[1]LadyeAeaea - Srceenplay
[1]SensFan - Firescreamer

[L-1]

[4]Srceenplay - JenLew, Drixx, SensFan, MMM
[0]Drixx -

[3]Not Voting - Meduna, Epid, LadyeAeaea


With

9

alive it takes

5

to lynch!

Mod Notes - Not a pagetop!

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2017-02-27 22:55:55).

[LadyeAeaea]

Hold on if one more person votes Srceenplay he gets lynched?! Isn't this reckless??

[LadyeAeaea]

I'm gonna reread the thread in a couple of hours and give my thoughts. Let's not lynch yet please.

[FireScreamer]

Nobody is going to quickhammer. It would only bring huge amount of pressure on them day 2 if he flips town. A townie has no incentive to bring that much pressure onto the only person they know isnt scum. I've posted an intent to hammer in around 43 hours. I'd like to hear more from Epid and the eventual replacement of Med before I do so though. So that may be extended.

[Srceenplay]

Hello everyone. Checking in.

First of all, want to clarify that I don't plan on playing by the silly guidelines of having to give written notice of intent to hammer. If four people are voting someone and I think they're likely Scum, I'm happy to just hammer them. If you're not comfortable with lynching someone, your vote shouldn't be sitting on them.

Second of all,

Vote: Screenplay.

Going strictly by your joindate you're not in your first game and way over your head. As others have mentioned, there's literally no Town motivation for any of your play so far.

So how do you feel about this post Fire?

[FireScreamer]

Hello everyone. Checking in.

First of all, want to clarify that I don't plan on playing by the silly guidelines of having to give written notice of intent to hammer. If four people are voting someone and I think they're likely Scum, I'm happy to just hammer them. If you're not comfortable with lynching someone, your vote shouldn't be sitting on them.

Second of all,

Vote: Screenplay.

Going strictly by your joindate you're not in your first game and way over your head. As others have mentioned, there's literally no Town motivation for any of your play so far.

So how do you feel about this post Fire?

I addressed it in Post 133. To expand upon that. Its making an investment for him to quickhammer later without repercussions. Its moderately scummy. He has now been told by multiple people that doing so would be a bad idea for him. Until he responds or actively fails to respond that's as far as it goes for me. I also don't feel that anyone else will share his viewpoint on it and he is already on your wagon, so in the practical sense I am not worried either.

[Drixx]

Unvote

because we have a wildcard of a not picked up role PM and an incoming replacement. That's just ... not a good idea.

In general, you don't want to leave a situation where someone can come in and hammer without realizing it or pretend to hammer without realizing it. This can lead to all sorts of problems, because you simply cannot know if they knew or didn't know and if it happens to be that they did it without realizing and it's a mislynch instead of a scum lynch, it can lead to back to back mislynches which, in the newbie game, puts the game into LYLO most of the time.

I need to read through again, but I don't feel quite as negative towards Srceenplay as I did last night. I see some actual effort to explain. I'm going to respond to a bunch of quotes and point out what the problem was from my POV though. I want to stress this for the newer players: you should not just post your conclusion and assume everyone understands how you got there. If I posit Srceenplay as town, then it appears like he just posted conclusions and expected the rest of us to immediately understand how he got there. The problem is... once he finally explained, I didn't at all see it and so up until that point, it appeared to me that he was literally and intentionally just trolling us for laughs, which is something that bothers me in newbie games. It's hard enough to learn how to play this game without someone intentionally screwing with you, ya know?

Your threats are not appropriate. I feel like you are mad/angry that is who I'm voting.

Stop angle shooting. It's against the rules.

Furthermore, I take the newbie queue seriously, and if you're just here to troll, believe me I will go to the mat to ensure you don't continue to have the opportunity to do so.

As far as I can see, you have two options now:

1.) Play the game and answer the question SEVERAL of us have now asked you, and which you continue to dodge. Stop trolling. Stop trying to angle shoot.

OR

2.) Keep screwing with a newbie game and see what happens.

I think everyone would prefer you stopped with the trolling and antics. Seriously. We're well beyond reasonable territory here now.

Angle shooting? Against the rules?
If there are rules you as ic have a responsibility to explain and show them to us. Don't state facts without explaining that is misleading and something scum does.

I am taking this seriously as well. There is not just one play style anyone will see playing so there is no reason for someone not to see it now.

Stop saying there are only two options. That is untrue. There are many things people can do or choose. I will not conform to your will and do what you want. Don't imply in newbie games that is what you are supposed to do under pressure.

Show me the troll posts please.

Angle Shooting is accusing someone of breaking the rules (your repeated referring to my posts as threats) in an attempt to bait the game moderator into stepping in and punishing the player. It is seriously frowned upon because mod censure should only happen as an absolute last resort. Therefore, attempting to influence the mod to take action against another player to further your win condition is considered against the rules and colloquially referred to as "angle shooting".

As for showing your troll posts, I could have just quoted most of your ISO before this post, because we kept asking you to explain the reasons you were scum reading Lady, and you kept just asserting that had done so, when you had not. The fact that MMM saw what might be viewed either as newbie confusion OR as cognitive dissonance in post #24 wasn't enough for me to put the dots together, and I'm pretty good at this game. I went and read that post a few times trying to figure out what on earth made you slingshot from pushing a no lynch to being certain Lady was scum, and I couldn't see anything in that post that was anywhere

NEAR

enough to be so sure. And you simply refused to give your thought process or any kind of logical reasoning or ... anything.

Trolling is only NAI until it starts harming the game, and you were harming the game with that long string of refusing to explain.

If you're assuming LadyeAeaea + Drixx based on post 24 that's a longshot

A long shot that now two people seen independently?

I mean I have to admit I had my own thoughts about that but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Well I did.
Plus she posted since and ignored my vote and fact that I called her scum.

Omg.What is confusing about it or what do you not understand?

In this back and forth between MMM and you, it isn't even clear that you are both on the same page, let alone thinking exactly the same thing. Neither of you states what about post 24 is scummy.

And umm... Lady DID ask you why you called her scum, I'm pretty sure. So I would say that no you didn't (to this point) explain what piqued your interest, nor was your assertion that she didn't at all react true. Furthermore, those two things would argue against one another, wouldn't they? Either Lady is so green at the game that she made a gigantic slip in the first few posts of the game, or she's savvy enough to ignore a vote without any reasoning and leave you hanging.

I suppose there's a third possibility. She's so skilled that post 24 was just pure theatre and the later savvier appearing play reveals that.

I've re-read her ISO, and I'm getting pretty strong newbie vibes. Agree or disagree? If you disagree, please point out precisely where you think she tips her hand and reveals herself to be more skilled and experienced. If you can demonstrate that, then post 24 becomes very damning.

Actually one small request, don't hammer before everyone *COUGH* Meduna has at least posted once.

This is very good advice.

I'm a little wary of MMM right now. There's a little bit of a touch of opportunism in the stances. First going along with Srceenplay on a posited Lady+me scum pairing, based upon almost nothing, and then putting out posts claiming to fear being mislynched when Srceenplay flips scum, and then going for easy town credit here.

What did you say your prior experience with mafia was again MMM?

Well I did.
Plus she posted since and ignored my vote and fact that I called her scum.

I assume given we have two weeks and you didn't give any reason as to why you scum read me, that you'd either eventually do that or you were throwing out a random vote. If you have any questions about what I've said so far I'm happy to answer them. But I don't really care, or want to waste my time defending against nothing. Or maybe I missed something and you can enlighten me on that.

In terms of my post regarding the person that gives as advice - I was inquiring as to why they're in the game rather than having a player who doesn't have a role fill this part. Like, very easy to look townie when you're providing useful information imo. Does that make sense? If you can explain your read on me since apparently it's a serious one, I think that'll be a good step. If you *are* just trolling, I hope we can at least get good reactions out of this. If you are scum then lol - although I'm not really sure about you being scum because of this behaviour as I think it'd be rather reckless of you to not only advocate for NL but also tunnel blindly right off the bat (or maybe you're a noob who's never played mafia :p). I think we should definitely be looking at people jumping on you for these actions for an easy mis-lynch.

I don't have much time today but I'll be way more active tomorrow when I'm sitting in the library studying all day (yawn).

This is the somehow elusive for everyone post.

Also what exactly is a SE? And isn't there a direct incentive to not lynch the IC because they're useful - or can the IC still give us info if they're dead?

In this post you ask a question about not knowing what a SE is. Then you move to knowing IC is important and imply that it would be best not to lynch. After that to finish the post it looked to me that you were asking if you can still talk to IC after they are dead.

This is where you finally post what made you go from "we should no lynch" to "I'm certain she is scum" and I get what you're getting at finally, and if I had not made the IC post that I did, I would actually agree with you. Post 24 appears to have cognitive dissonance. First she asks what an SE is, then she asks about an incentive not to lynch the IC ... so there's a bit of a experience dissonance there, especially with the end of the question asking if I can communicate after dead. But ... take into account my IC post and it feels genuine newbie question through and through.

Agree?

Well on post 7 Drixx explained what the IC is, hence prompting my comments. He sounds important from his post, am I wrong? I didn't see an explanation for SE...? And my question was, will a dead IC still answer game related questions if they die (in the thread obviously, PMing outside of game is totally no). Because assuming not - there should likely be an out of game role that fills this duty otherwise we have a direct disincentive to lynch or pressure him. I'm amused/confused at what you read into this post.

Most of what an IC needs to handle will come up on the first day. As a general rule on the site, the IC tends to be left alone the first day. Most new scum will kill a town IC on night one or two on the assumption that the IC is somehow superior by leaps and bounds, but that really isn't it at all. All an IC has to demonstrate to volunteer for the position is enough games played and in those games (which the newbie listmod reviews) the IC has to demonstrate a solid knowledge of game theory and site standards.

I volunteer to IC for two reasons. The first is that the newbie queue and new players is a huge part of what has kept MS the best mafia site for like 15 years now. Inevitably veteran players will burn out and take a break or stop playing if they get good enough that the game stops being challenging, and so without new players coming in and enjoying the experience and sticking around, we would slowly wither and die as a site. Since I derive so much enjoyment from the site, I like to volunteer in the newbie queue (both as IC and game mod) to help make the experience enjoyable.

But there's the second reason: the matrix6 setup is pretty simple. It can't really be mechanically broken and rarely ends up in "follow the cop" type situations. It places an emphasis on actually playing the game and reading people, and so I play here to continue to improve my game and get better.

So you should not view an IC as anything other than someone who is obligated to answer questions honestly to the best of their ability. Otherwise they are a player just like you ... just with a demonstrated level of competence and knowledge. If the only reason you aren't lynching the IC is because they are the IC, then you should probably lynch them, in other words.

And finally ... nobody who is dead is allowed to post anything substantive. Most mods allow one "bah" post that doesn't contain any game related content once dead, but that's it.

[Epid]

I agree, I would like to hear more of me too.
I would also like to hear what Meduna's replacement thoughts on this are, in the meant time, my thoughts are this:
Srceenplay will most likely get lynched in the end for his trolling and avoiding questions. I think he's either an unhelpful townie or a inexperienced scum. Most likely the first. He is getting lynched for the fact that he is trolling and no other reason. I am debating with myself whether or not this is a good or bad choice, but we need to get the game started somehow. I'll get back to you on that later, sorry for not posting very often.

[Srceenplay]

First off, I play on my mobile and I despise wall posts. Pain in the ass to sort through.
So with that if I miss anything don't bitch and just kindly ask again.

You say all my post were trolling for not answering questions. I stated I did answer and even showed where I thought it was clear I did. I get called for trolling again. I think that shows miscommunication. I asked for specifics but was just called a troll.

I never had intentions to manipulate or communicate for the mod in any way. If I did I would do it like so,

@MOD Can we get a vote count?

I am satisfied with Lady. It feels to me she is genuinely trying to make sure she understands and figures out the game.
UNVOTE:

[FireScreamer]

So Srcreenplay. Since you started the day by two seperate gambits to elicit reactions, how do you analyse the reactions against you? What was your expectation? Can we expect more of these in the future? (Feel free to wait until after the replacement has weighed in to answer any of these questions).

[Srceenplay]

I think I did what I accomplished. I got out of RVS quickly with substantial discussion.
No reason for me to continue on that route.
I have a FOS on MMM and Jenlew
Sensfan's hammer post is disturbing but it makes about as much sense as me voting NL. It's something that everyone knows not to do, so maybe it was for reaction? We need her to explain her intentions.
Fire I feel you are trying to stay calm and evaluate. Not rushing to conclusions and looking to get as much information as you can.
Drixx I feel like I just pissed him off because I was screwing up his IC game. Still null though. I would think common sense would tell him that someone who has played is some games here wouldn't earnestly try to NL.

[UpTooLate]

Ingeel replaces Meduna immediately. Please welcome them!

Vc when I get home!

[Ingeel]

Catching up to what the thread is looking like currently.

[Srceenplay]

Welcome to the game.

[Ingeel]

Hiya folks. This is likely going to be my only post today but i'll make up for it tomorrow. Just super busy today. A couple of questions since we are all coming from different places

1. How much experience have you had with mafia before this game? Is this just your first game on this site or your first game?
2. Do you feel you have specific playstyle ticks that we should be aware of before hand? Obviously if you are super new this shouldn't apply
3. What are you hoping to get out of this game?

Oh and lets get our RVS on

VOTE: SensFan because the IC is always right. #AppealtoAuthority

1)I've played on a separate forum for a bit over a year now. What forum that is wish not disclose because I'd rather not get constant reminders from people on that forum games here are up.
2)I don't like making long posts. You could say I like getting to the point.
3)See whether or not I like this site because I've been looking for a second site.

VOTE: no lynch
First day is always mislynch. Mafia would love that. Let's get to night so out invests can do there jobs.

Is this your first game? Sorry if I missed this.

In my mind a NL vote is exactly the same as not voting at all.

It's never ok to lose a member on your side but a lynch will give us more info than doing nothing. You also have no guarantees that scum will make a night kill. They could also just not do anything to wait and see what happens

I agree with this.

Fine then. I think you have better understanding than me MMM.

The obvious scum is

VOTE: LadyeAeaea
I was going to let the cop investigate it first but it's obvious enough to just vote her and get her gone.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoMiYklHvjk[/youtube]
If I recall correctly they hadn't or if they had posted only once or twice. The push that went off it I can see but the subsequent votes came on too fast for what is likely an egotistical maniac.(at this time)

VOTE: Screenplay

Something's just off about your reasoning.

:ok_hand:

I found one scum for us. Vote her up.
:Mic Drop:
I'm out.

And then the sudden reversal to this.

So the way I see it, one of two things is going on here.

1.) You realized the mistake of your no lynch push and jumped to this to try and get the attention off of that.
2.) You're scum and are making one heck of a gambit.

This only plays out a couple of ways. Since you have given no actual reasoning to believe she is scum, it logically follows you don't have any. Please do correct me if I'm wrong on this point.

So we could lynch you, and if you flip scum we can reasonably assume that either she's town or it was a gambit. It would be a pretty big stretch for it to be a gambit, but possible. If we lynch you and you flip town, we learn nothing whatsoever. If we lynch her and she flips town, then you go tomorrow, and if you're town that means you put us into 5 man LYLO with this stunt (presuming no kills are stopped).

I'm inclined to just assume we've got caught scum (you) in this bizarre turn of posts.

Please explain why and how you have "found one scum for us". If your explanation and reasoning make no sense, be prepared to defend yourself, because I can see absolutely zero town motive in your play so far, but lots and lots of potential scum motives.

I honestly don't like the ending parts of this entire post, but this in particular. I'm honestly leaning he's a VI at this point. Not too found of Drixx currently.

There has been no explanation whatsoever. You are being intentionally obtuse. At this point, I am going to just assume that you are trolling, and you're going to find a hostile audience to that on this site.

VOTE: Srceenplay

Sort of a "scapegoat" assuming Drixx is scum and he flips town so nobody can really be mad at him. Thought's here but can verbalize it.

very unlikely to find better lynch than me,in 12 days time? Common give yourself and town more credit than that.

I am a VT.

I have made actions and points to see how people react. If anyone thinks they found scum this fast they don't understand the game and implying it's that easy is a misrep of the game.

This is as almost bad as some dude on another forum. Not sure if they come here but they were always town. And this play definitely feels town.

[SensFan]

On second thought however some good might come from this.
UNVOTE: Firescreamer
VOTE: Srceenplay you have some explaining to do and properly at that.
This is L-1. Hammer him without declaring intent and I will hunt you down mercilessly if he flips town.

Normally under the circumstances of this game I would say this is bad.

Sensfan has stated at the beginning of the game that they will hammer without warning. They are on the wagon all ready so it doesn't matter, but it's not a moot point.
It is never ok for a town to quick hammer. It ends the day fast and cancels all additional information gathering chances for town. It cuts the conversation short. Never quick hammer. Never self hammer. Never self vote. They are all against town wincon.

Senfan would you like to explain your reasoning?

IC would you like to add to this?

Haven't read past this, but address it as I get to it since there's like 4 pages to read.

Yep. If I think someone is Scum, and four other people think someone is scum, Imma vote them whether that's a hammer or not. I've seen way too many lynches go sideways since most people I play with have this insane policy of not wanting to lynch Scum on D1. It's annoying.

[SensFan]

Nobody is going to quickhammer. It would only bring huge amount of pressure on them day 2 if he flips town. A townie has no incentive to bring that much pressure onto the only person they know isnt scum. I've posted an intent to hammer in around 43 hours. I'd like to hear more from Epid and the eventual replacement of Med before I do so though. So that may be extended.

Had I not been on the wagon, I'd 100% have hammered him if he were at L-1. If you're not comfortable with a lynch of someone, your vote shouldn't be on them.

[Srceenplay]

That is wrong and bad play. Votes are not only for killing they are for information gathering. That is wrong of you to try and say otherwise.

[SensFan]

There's a lot more information to be gained when people's votes are real and live and could lead to a lynch. Otherwise it's way too easy for Scum to vote someone, then get 'cold feet' during the IntentToHammer phase or after a claim.

Like I said, without people willing to hammer, this site tends to have a policy against lynching Scum on Day1.

[FireScreamer]

While I disagree with SensFan I do not think this is a scumtell. This seems to be entirely playstyle based and is a nulltell. I suggest we now post intent to L-1 a wagon that Sen is not part of to play around it. Just be mindful about the guy and he can't actually do anything with his hammerhappy approach.

[Srceenplay]

That is a perfect way to stall the day out if you try to demonized people's vote power. Votes are a tool not a death note.

[Srceenplay]

Agree
If sensfan wishes to play with that intent, we should not put anyone at L-1 without intent.

With that said I have FOS on Sensfan.

[UpTooLate]

Bump