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Post #69 (isolation #0) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:57 pm
Postby Frozen Angel »
There are things - that some people will feel sorry for after playing as scum
Like designing a manipulative plan to make someone look bad. Publickly revealing these stuff are normally ok but if that plan results a drama - or heartbreaking situations the details are better to be kept secret.
Its not about being a jerk during the game. Its about keeping your friends friend after them.
Last edited by Frozen Angel on Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #70 (isolation #1) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:00 pm
Postby Frozen Angel »
and before you attack what I said i must remind you people are different.
some are really sensitive and some are strong as rocks. Letting people handle what they want to share with each other is the best way to treat everyone equally and fair - and to not be cuase of a serious impact on some sensitive realtionships
Its a game after all. Why does it matter to make sure you know every detail about someone else action.
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Post #73 (isolation #2) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:33 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
I didn't read the thread sorry.
But letting people decide what they want to share with others after the game seems a really reasonable approach. When the game is over, Mod has no need (and no right) to enforce anything.
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Post #76 (isolation #3) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:51 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
If amod wants to publicly reveal their pts , they must tell that pre game becuase of current meta
if not the players did not signed up to see the private topics after the game. Thats not promised anywhere. and I still believe letting the scums decide to edit or never reveal the pt or not instead of enforcing anything after the game is more reasonable as we as moderators has no responsibility for post game discussions. For full experiane like the way you described you need to install a device on brains of all the players and reveal all their thought process after the game - or you may find another approach who knows.
The only data that a mod must out after the game -arguably- is full game setups and explaining game mechanics. Nothing more - unless they told otherwise at pregame.
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Post #78 (isolation #4) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:04 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
I'm saying the standard shouldn't be
as thats not related to mods at all. Its what people may or may not want to share with eachother after a game. why is that mods responsibility to get involved middle of something that might cause serious drama and personal relational issues
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Post #80 (isolation #5) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:09 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
Why is its mod responsibility to publicly reveal all the conversations related to game?
Your point makes no sense. People do hydra pt's - no one reveals them by default.
Scum chat is an extra topic which is used by a bunch of players only - and thats the meaning of private. Why should a mod Not let those players to keep their private conversation private to avoid further drama?
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Post #83 (isolation #6) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:19 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 81, Cerberus v666 wrote:it's not the mods job to do anything besides run the game itself.
I maintain that releasing all PTs is part of running the game,
but once it's out there the mods job is done.
Ok here is the part we disagree on
How is publicly revealing all related player made data a part of running the game?
I argue when the game finished ; The moment when mod says its "game over" the mod job is over. even outing setup data and answering questions is even highly recommended extension not a responsibility
Last edited by Frozen Angel on Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is NOBODY ELSE whose responsibility it could be. Nobody else involved in the game has the ability to make PTs public, therefore doing so falls on the moderator. The decision of whether or not pts should be released is absolutely theirs to make.
Do they have ro do it? No.
Should they? Yes.
Should we redefine what duties are expected of a moderator, so they HAVE to do it in the future? Yes.
Why they should do it?
Your saying its their responsibilty cause nobody else can do it! I say why should they do it in first place? you say cause its their responsibility and we circle this again.
If your the only one who can do something why is that making you responsible for doing it? Its a data about a private communication between some players. Why you as a part of those small group who had access to that private chat MUST out this to everyone after game finishes?
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Post #87 (isolation #9) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:29 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
no we shouldn't force everyone to out that private data.
Thats simply not making any sense. when someone wants to keep a private communication private , he / she wants to keep it private. It depends how much we value people's privacy.
Releasing a private communication has impact on people relationships. I as a human being won't do it unless the involved people say they have no problem about it - or I will warn about it before game start.
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Post #89 (isolation #10) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:39 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
Why are they expected to reveal it?
Who is determining this expection?
I believe you know that's not the current meta nowdays so that exeption if exists is simply wrong. Cause what we should expect is getting determined by majority , community culture and meta.
Now arguing if its a right or wrong meta - your not supporting your case why should this meta change at all and I am arguing it shouldn't as its according to what we believe about privacy in general manner. You might argue even that is wrong but its not me or you who decides this. Its site community and moderators in this community who decides it after all.
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Post #100 (isolation #13) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:42 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
Its that your not bringing any logical line of reasoning to support why should something change and I have multiple reasons and examples why its better unchanged - if you agree or your disagree it won't change it.
Your saying mafia pt's are a part of game and must be released after game - I strongly argue against this. Mafia pt's are a concentrated - controled private communication tool. You are free to force releasing them - if you warn the players or change the meta - But from my pov the way it is atm makes more sense
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Post #104 (isolation #15) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:49 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
Before someone call me offensive like people usually do whenever I start talking on MS; I'm criticizing the proposed idea and nothing against Cerb or anyone else. I'm not going to apologize for no shit. I love him as a person and player and I respect his line of thinking. I beleive he is wrong in this - and even if he is right - till the moment I get convinced otherwise I see no reason for changing a behavior.
this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably
IT IS BROKEN THOUGH.
I read the whole thread after you said it last time.
and It is not really. It is a very reasonable approach for releasing a private communication.
and Fr the point you made about hydra pt's that's just sick to foribly release them as well. I will stand against you about this one... Two players in same slot can have a complete private communication in whatever way they wish and if they let you see their topic and thought process you have no right to betray that trust and out their privacy
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Post #107 (isolation #17) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:58 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
You guys are saying multiple times there is no strong reason (by your standards) for not outing the pt's but you fail in giving a one single strong reason (by your own standards) why should they get public.
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Post #109 (isolation #18) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:03 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 108, Infinity 324 wrote:They're interesting to read and they help people get better at the game
That won't make it a responsibility for a mod.
The people who wrote them ; wrote them in a private topic. No one cares if you believe their interesting. No one is responsible for giving you whatever you find interesting or to help you get better in anything.
Why you suggest forcibly removing the term "private" from that is a decent move? and how is this counted a decent reason at all ... Your talking about yourself. Outing those pt's is not about what you want. Its about what the people in the PT want and do they have the right to want it private or not.
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Post #112 (isolation #19) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:06 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 110, Cerberus v666 wrote:Pedit: Because it's part of the experience of playing mafia in this format, because it's the expectation(for me at least, and I'm quite certain for others), because it's VERY interesting to see how scum teams coordinated and worked together, and what their plans were, how they reacted to different events and how those decisions were made, and yes, to gain a deeper understanding of mafia through studying the play of others.
See my above answer
and my repeated refrense to this : Its not a part of the main thread of game. So you as a player of game has no inherited right to see that topic becuase your playing it.
how the term you find it interesting makes it right thing to do?
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Post #113 (isolation #20) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:10 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 111, Cerberus v666 wrote:*shrug* there should be no expectation of privacy in those topics once the game is over. The topic exists SOLELY to facilitate the game running, and is private as a result.
Once it's over, no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to read it.
See the point is who are the people who must decide/judge if there is a reason for not publicize them or not?
Mod or The involved players?
I say both. Mod can enforce releasing pt's if they inform the players -as that makes it a decent appraoch to moderate a game in the way people expect if you don't make any exceptions pregame -
But as a topic those players talked into and Owned -by the way game setup gave them this "tool" They can request for not letting it publicly get revealed.
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Post #115 (isolation #21) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:17 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 114, Cerberus v666 wrote:The only reason why it's not contained in the main thread is because it can't be, mechanically speaking. It is an ESSENTIAL part of the game. Any argument that it's NOT part of the game is disingenuous at best.
Pedit: I don't think it should even be a question. I think it should be known that pts are released, and players should act appropriately. SO, I suppose the moderator. The players choice shouldn't matter, because it was made when they joined the game.
Its not an essential part of the game at all. But I'm not going to argue about this. assuming it is an essential part of the game. why should all essential parts of game get publicly revealed after game finishes?
You are prosposing to give all the players the right - you beleive they all have that right. Thats where I hardly disagree. The chat is just a private tool in hands of involved players and is not a shared property for all of the players in game. Neither of us can convince the other is wrong about this principle so the argument ends here.
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Post #117 (isolation #22) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:27 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 110, Cerberus v666 wrote:Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.
oh btw if you modding a game with this approach please tell me before signing up so I never join. I'm really really really protesting against "proposing" the idea mods have any rights to even ask for releasing hydra pt's after game finish.
pedit : No. I'm not talking about semantics ... Private communication must remain private unless the involved people confirm its right to release it.
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Post #120 (isolation #23) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:38 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 118, Infinity 324 wrote:But the reason it's private is for the purposes of the game, not any other reason. If scum are expecting that the PTs be released, which they should be, I don't see a reason to delete any requested posts and release the PT.
Its labeled private. The reason for making it private doesn't matter. either change the label and inform its not actually private forever.
If scum is expecting that pt to be release just release it. My argument is if its that a necessity/mod responsibility/a good thing generally or not.
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Post #121 (isolation #24) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:41 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 119, Cerberus v666 wrote:Pedit: yes, what infinity said..the conversation isn't private because the people involved expect it to never be shared. It's private because the game requires a means of private communication between members of the scum team.
It simply doesn't matter.
Its a private thing - either announce your going to betray the term privacy or keep it private if the involved players ask you to. I beleive the second is better, more legit and understandable and more fair.
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Post #122 (isolation #25) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:42 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 119, Cerberus v666 wrote:Oh, if I ever mod a game it will be with this approach, and it will be clearly announced in the signup thread.
sorry then
I don't play a game when your going to attack my privacy in my hydra. I simply will be offended so hard and its better now that you told its what your going to do.
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Post #126 (isolation #27) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:53 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
Its not personal sentiment
I give you a my pov and thought process
I do believe there is a different view about a principle key that I discussed in last page. as its a principle viewpoint there is no way to reach an agreement on this.
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Post #130 (isolation #29) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:00 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 128, Infinity 324 wrote:But I don't understand a specific reason why you'd want the PT to not be released at all in some cases instead of saying the PT will be released, deleting specific posts, then releasing it.
When I said I don't want it to be released? I said will let my scum players to have that option as well. Whatever said in that pt was said in a private secure location and I will let them decide if they want it outed or not. Noone else has any right to see that topic - even if their intrested or want to make their play better.
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Post #131 (isolation #30) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:04 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
You might spam next 20 pages this saying the same things over and over and don't try to read what I said about my reasons at all.
or you might actually admit this has a basic principle difference in our opinions about who has a right to modify/release what; whats the meaning of privacy; what is the responsibilities of a mod and what effects force releasing might have. and as its all theory talk we both are right in our pov's.
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Post #133 (isolation #31) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:16 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
I really don't have anything about the name
I'm saying if That conversation is private which it should be - releasing it - EVER must be acceptable by the involved people. Either tell them and get their acceptance pregame or ask them at game end. Thats the only way it even makes sense
THIS is not arguable. This is what privacy means ^
But My point when I was discussing this was that why I think the second feels better in application as mods won't take any responsibilities for the private data and its further effects after the game.
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Post #138 (isolation #32) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:49 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
I'm saying I personally believe asking them at end game is more applicable as
- its the current meta
- its ok, understood and well impelimented as it is
- its compltely fair (not saying the other approach is not) and is according to whats accepted generally as privacy in human societies (again not saying the other approach is not)
- In this approach players can decide if there is something that can be annoying to someone else - or is annoying them if gets publickly revealed and they can manage it themselves.
- In this approach mods has no responsibilities or whatsoever about anything that happens after they announce a "game over" which is the correct way I assume.
and again I'm going back to my first posts. People are different. You can't just say what seems ok to you is ok to them as well. Some people are sensative. They might hate their friend for designing a manipulative plan , They might get angry for simple nonsense reasons and this is just a game. so allowing players to hide whatever they think it might impact later on is not a really moronic move as you guys are trying to describe it.
The rest of players has no right to see a private topic unless the mod promise them that before game starts.
Its a game after all. Why does it matter to make sure you know every detail about someone else action.
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Post #139 (isolation #33) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:49 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 135, Cerberus v666 wrote:I believe she means she prefers to get their acceptance after the game is over because it removes any responsibility for revealing what was said and the consequences of said reveal from the moderator. Basically, she prefers it because anything which results from then pt being revealed happened because the players chose to reveal the pt.
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Post #143 (isolation #35) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:12 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
In post 142, McMenno wrote:I mean if you want to discuss private things then you can start a conversation with your team members outside of your scum topic
this is not even related to my point at all
and this is not even ok if its about the other players in game. Its totally and absolutely a hardcore rule violation.
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Post #153 (isolation #41) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:19 pm
Postby Frozen Angel »
Thats exactly my point
This is a game - why you wanna enforce a rule (to publickly reveal everything) when players can decide what to share or not themselves.
Why is that healthiest for community to enforce this? What do you mean when you say its not honest. This is the game of dishonesty, Why should someone be honest about anything during or after the game by any standards?
I'm not saying letting them decide what to do let them to "maintain freindships". I'm saying if not you as a moderator might be the result for causing a drama or unnecessary conflicts which is stupid however you look at it.
When someone asks you to not open a private topic they posted in that means they don't want others to see their posts in there obviously. Whatever is their reason Its definitely healthier for community to respect that request.
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Post #154 (isolation #42) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:24 pm
Postby Frozen Angel »
A player who receives a scum role must be free to do whatever action they can to manipulate and frame
Thats how this works. Now your saying he must be outed publicly after the match - and in some cases - by some standards - in some pov's get publickly shamed for that. Why is that healthy at all?
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Post #186 (isolation #49) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:36 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
Scum pt is way differnt from hyra pt
scum pt is a combination of different slots in the game
a hyra pt is one slot with differnt people on it
for me or other mods - we don't care if there are 2 people there. We are treating them as one person with one head. just like how you can think for yourself and a mod can't monitor your thinking process the hydra heas are allowed to whatever the fuck they want out side of the game and mods have no right to even ask about it.
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Post #188 (isolation #50) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:39 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
when you enforced a rule that everyone should install a mind reader device on their head so you can monitor their thought process we will enforce a rule to not let hydra particpants have unlimited privacy.
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Post #211 (isolation #58) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:33 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
game mods make private topics of game (like scum pt) and will add others in them
for hydra pt - some will make them upon request (if they do they have access). some who moderate games themselve wil make their own hydra pt's - so game mod won't have access to it
and some people won't ever make a hydra pt cause they have other ways of communication.
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Post #219 (isolation #60) » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:28 am
Postby Frozen Angel »
@BTD No one ever said scum pt is not an important part of game.
giving 1 day to scum team to tell their concerns before releasing the topic is not equal to lock it up
I never locked any scum topics in my modding history.
The reason the one day or two is given is to say "I gave you a chance to express any concerns, I have no responsibility or whatsoever about anything that might happen" and I embrace that relaxation as a mod
and Why you should see what hydra partners will discuss? That's the exact meaning of violating privacy. What hydra partners discuss is literally none of your business as a mod.
Its not about allowing them to insult. Its about alloing them to talk. For all you as a mod should care - their one slot - and they should act like one in your game so you as a mod should treat them as a one slot as well.