Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[mastina]

It's fundamentally NAI.

Why did you feel the need to point out a lack of alignment for the act?

[mastina]

I'm not particularly sure why you'd take offense to labeling a stack of (seemingly not super interesting) early questions as RQS.

Site history you're not aware of. RQS is never used anymore and for good reason, but back a few years ago it was incredibly common--the reason it fell out of use?

...It was proven to benefit scum more than town. Scum had a much easier time blending into the game, and also, it did not end the "random" stage of the game any faster timewise, or any sooner page-wise. It also wasn't particularly slower or longer, but because it was basically the same length as the RVS and yet had scum benefit the RVS did not have, it was largely discontinued.

Thus taking offense to the label of RQS. I am a huge proponent of the importance of the RVS and scumhunt heavily from it. My post even encouraged a continuation of the RVS. RQS questions are designed to get the game out of the random stage; my questions are designed to actually help teach.

[mastina]

It's interesting to see the number of assumptions you're making in here. Most of them aren't accurate. Suffice to say, my answer here isn't changing: at this time, I decline to elaborate.

Well that was a transparently non-helpful response

Objection, it was an opaquely helpful response. The two, while similar, should never be confused.

1) 57 was a serious post

Technically this is a yes. Not in the way you would assume.

2) The snippet of text that you quoted from oldwino was the relevant part of his post that you were responding to

(-silence-)

3) Town? means nulltown, Scum? means nullscum, Scum means scum

Close enough.

4) RC's vote on you was "I'm feeling salty from last game", and that your read was dependent on the "content" of the vote or the tone of it

X

5) AA/DW's RVS votes were basically empty, but you claimed to have seen something in there that was readable

Sort-of?

6) There were scummy parts to OW's post 14 that you hadn't quoted

This was NOT an assumption present in your post--rather the opposite.

Also, there are assumptions in your post that you missed. Quite a few, actually.

[mastina]

It's kind of funny you say this right after you're like "screw explaining myself"

I was well aware of this, the difference being:
I have a style emphasizing a lack of explanation.
To my knowledge, you lack this.
In a position as a teacher, I have extra incentive beyond the normal to hold back on certain stuff.
As an SE you have self-admitted you are in no such position.

As a result, I am indeed holding you to a different stance than I am holding myself to--from you, I expect explanations; from me, explanations aren't expected until an appropriate time (potentially as late as postgame, even!).

Tone: the casual dismissiveness and snark of it. Basically, it was an answer not even slightly designed to appeal to / pocket him (or if it was, it really wasn't obvious to me how it was), and it felt relatively pure

I have thoughts on this.

Logic: Why don't you take a wild guess? I'll even give you a hint and point you to 66 and 72.

Well within my capabilities, but again: I'm not in a position where I'm interested in sharing with you; I'm in a position where I'm wanting you to share. I have stated that I will share. In fact, I have stated I have even to some extent already given answers in my posts, if people look for them. You're hiding your answer from me, though: I have an answer. It's my posts, after all. I want you to give YOURS.

[-Grey-]

I'm nurturing a theory that scum is laying low while town gets tied up in NAI quarreling they hope will eventually turn into a mislynch.

I'd prefer to avoid that scenario.

While, yes, it's important to sort players while they're playing and available to be sorted, I don't want to get too heavily invested in any reads until everyone has either established their presence or been replaced by a more active player.

[mastina]

I would like to note that mhsmith is doing something which I also noted from oldwino. The two of them, above all other players, are guilty of this cardinal sin. I'm not going to pull up a quote from either player to give an indication of what this is. But you might be able to guess--namely, by which posts of theirs I am

not

responding to.

Anyone care to guess what they have in common?

[mastina]

Inversely, question for you. You've given plenty of thoughts on the proceedings thusfar. Any READS?

Yes

And what, perhaps, are you doing with those reads?

Keeping them to yourself is obvious enough, but I mean aside from that.

[mastina]

When there is a town-town fight, fueling the flames is scummy behavior. Super awkward engagement is scummy behavior. Actively working to defuse the argument is towny behavior (provided it's town-town). Actively working to figure out who is right is towny behavior. Doing nothing is basically null.

There are things in here which I disagree with even though the broader picture is accurate enough, but I can't comment on this further without spoiling some of the surprise.

mastina has stated that this wasn't the basis of her read, but this post in particular suggests that it WAS a meaningful portion of her read (otherwise it's just theory fluff and IIOA).

You act as if theory fluff and reads are mutually exclusive; they are not. My statement about it not being the basis of my read was accurate; my implication that it was in your words "a meaningful portion of my read" (not the words I'd use but oh well I'll borrow them until such time I feel like explaining myself) was also accurate. They are not contradictions.

[mastina]

Why do you expect me to be doing heavy lifting right off the bat?

Never said anything about heavy lifting.

There may have been an implication about lifting at all though.

[-Grey-]

Anyone care to guess what they have in common?

They both seem to be coming after you, for one thing.

Does that make them scum together? I'd think it would suggest the opposite.

[mastina]

Was that an unfair interpretation of your current stated game state view?

Quite. You make many assumptions. Some I'll answer. Others are personal and won't be answered at all.

It is true that I view you as scum.
It is true that I do not view RadiantCowbells as scum.
It is true that I view there to be a difference between good town and good scum.

This is about all that can be said to be true in your post.

[mastina]

Sure, but basically any towny behavior can be imitated by scum for towncred.

An instance of a technical truth which is not true in reality--broadly speaking, sure, but realistically speaking, town behavior is called town behavior because it comes from a player who is town in a way that scum can't replicate. Perhaps imitate unsuccessfully, but not recreate. I'm running out of time here, so I can't go into detail about it.

[mastina]

Did I say running out of time?
Scratch that, ran out, sorry. I'll continue later.

[-Grey-]

After some thought, I think you are either trying to stimulate some discussion, which you are doing with me, or as aa noted, or maybe to deflect suspicion of yourself because you are not under any pressure right now. Or, maybe, you're trying to redirect the discussion to stop the (now pointless, I think) debate between you and RC.

Which is it?

Or do you plan on building a house on that fence you're sitting on?

I might not build a house, but I may camp out on the fence for a while. Why not when I'm not sure? I'm not going to commit to a POV or opinion that is still evolving.

In this case however, I think I was clear, I mostly think you were just trying to generate some discussion, but MAYBE you had other reasons. Just maybe. But mostly think you were just stimulating some discussion.

See, I like this post.

IME, scum, especially new scum, tend to allow themselves to be boxed into a corner with a little pressure in order to avoid raising suspicion... which bites them in the ass if they forget later on.

OW was not hesitant to maintain his stance, which makes me believe it is more likely to be genuine instead of scum trying to keep their options open.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am flagrantly unable to see Mastina as town here.

[oldwino]

Finally getting back to aa's questions in post 172.

what are you thinking? Are you going to claim or NOT claim BP?

I don't really understand the RC town thing. I'm still trying to get a hang of everyone's name too. mastina (the IC) have unsatisfactory explanation regarding her reads, but they're not red flags to me. I don't think the OMGUS from oldwino on me as anthing much, but that vote on mastina doesn't really feell like it was backed with a "strong read". I'm more wary of Dog since I don't understand where his view on who's scummy or townie came from.
I still don't see the benefit to the not BP claim. How does it help?

JDW claimed BP so my response is after-the-fact but still wanted to respond to your question. Good for future reference.
RC did research and found that not claiming/claiming the bp increased town's chance of winning. In the recent game when he tried it and everyone cooperated, scum were killed the first two nights. So, after reading that and giving it some thought, I decided to cooperate and claim NOT bp.

Mastina's player posts are disappointing (weak reasons for scum read on me and no reason for her scum read on DW, with town reads on players who haven't said anything). Thanks for volunteering to be the IC, your IC posts were helpful and interesting, but your player mode seems strange, especially your strong scum read on me for two very weak reasons. You just seem to be baiting me, maybe trying to make me into lynch bait (like I was in my first came, I now realize). So I have a strong scum read on you.

So the strong read came from thinking yourself as a lynch bait? I don't see mastina giving that strong of a scumread on you. It doesn't feel intense so the defensive stance you are taking feels off.

I guess I read her read on me too strongly. I didn't mean to be overly defensive, but to reasonably defend myself.

I like DW of course, since we are mutually defending ourselves against Mastina's unfounded scum reads on us both (gee, does that make it sound like DW and I are scum buddies, I'll bet Mastina says so). Sticking my neck out here, but want to have some fun. Leaning town on Dog (may I call you 'Dog,' I like dogs).

This part sounds like you're worried if anyone thinks of buddying so you're trying to clear it needlessly before it was brought up.

You're right here, good lesson for me.

I'm really disappointed AA hasn't come back

Welp. Sorry

Studying, working, eating, sleeping is all important.

[oldwino]

I am flagrantly unable to see Mastina as town here.

Why do you not see Mastina as town? I have my reasons for thinking she may be scum, but what are yours?
Did you not change your vote from Grey to Mastina because it's still early and you don't want to take her to L1?
I agree with that strategy - just checking.

[mhsmith0]

I am flagrantly unable to see Mastina as town here.

You know it's funny. I'm reminded of her point raised a while ago
Subject: Mini normal 1823 dead thread

Helpful hint:
If you EVER,
And I do mean, EVER,
Think, "This can't possibly be town, right?"
100% of the time:
It's town.

but then I kinda wonder if she might just be going for a bizarre play here or just actually be super not good as scum. Like if this was a game with a jester or mime I'd just say there's our answer, but obviously that's not on the table here.

Basically she's nullscum to me rn. Like, I want to say that oldwino was being opportunistic in his push and read in her, but the manner in which she is playing makes it entirely plausible that he's justified in pushing her and is just not doing a good job of it. And I can envision a world in which she thinks that playing in a super opaque manner is actually productive, which would then mean that her doing this as scum would be a result of her actually having intended to do it as town and just imitating the process.

[mastina]

Apologies. Family night went on for longer than anticipated; by the time it was over, I was too tired for continuing to play.
Should be noted--

MOD:

While I am

always

V/LA over weekends,

severely V/LA next Friday through the weekend

.
I have back-to-back days of events. A square dance on Friday, a staff meeting on Saturday and family night after that.

[mastina]

Why not when I'm not sure?

Because as town, your JOB if you aren't sure is to

become

sure. It is to

resolve

the lack of a stance, so as to have a relevant opinion. It is okay over an incredible short period of time to go: "I don't have an opinion there". You absolutely are REQUIRED as town to make an effort towards forming an opinion. If your efforts to form one fail, you don't go "welp guess I've got nothing"; you change your approach and try again until you can form an opinion.

I'm not going to commit to a POV or opinion that is still evolving.

If everyone took this stance, we would never get out of the RVS, because the RVS is defined as opinions still evolving, yet it's impossible to break that stance without some level of committing.

[mastina]

Our own resident MSocrates, ladies and gentlemen!

Probably an apt description: I know so much because I constantly remind myself I don't know so much.

And in general, I actually do encourage that trend to grow in players. Never feel content with your game. Always seek improvement in it. Always think, "what did I do wrong?", always wonder "what could I do better?", and try to take the RIGHT lessons from a game. For instance, "In this game, I didn't do this specific thing. What I learned from this is that this specific thing should always be done" is not a good lesson. "In this game, I didn't do this specific thing. This specific thing represents a skill of this broader thing. What I learned from this is that I probably need to work on this broader thing, which in this game happened to be this specific thing" is closer to the kind of lesson you want to take from a game. (And also what I'm hoping to provide in feedback postgame.)

Mafia is a game of generalities. The people who focus on the specifics often fail to learn, because the specific problem in every game is different. The people who focus on the broader generalities often rise to stardom, because the general problems in games are near-universal. They manifest differently in each case, and aren't always present, but are there more often than not, so working on them works wonders.

[mastina]

I'm nurturing a theory that scum is laying low while town gets tied up in NAI quarreling they hope will eventually turn into a mislynch.

Funny. So am I. I, apparently, just have a vastly different definition of this than you do! Because for me, I don't consider aa-dono, Ulti, or JustDanceWorld to be laying low.
I consider you and RC to be the town tied up in "NAI quarreling" to use your own words.

I, too, would prefer to avoid that scenario. So I am working towards breaking it!

While, yes, it's important to sort players while they're playing and available to be sorted, I don't want to get too heavily invested in any reads until everyone has either established their presence or been replaced by a more active player.

This is part of the reason I have yet to fully explain my stances on players: I was waiting for players to establish their presence.

[mastina]

Anyone care to guess what they have in common?

They both seem to be coming after you, for one thing.

Not what I saw.

Think more what they're

not

doing, more than what they

are

doing.

[mastina]

which makes me believe it is more likely to be genuine instead of scum trying to keep their options open.

You and I have very different views of the gamestate, m'friend. Keeping options open is explicitly what oldwino has been doing and is a large part of the problem.

[mastina]

I am flagrantly unable to see Mastina as town here.