Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[DogWatch]

I find myself mostly getting what Grey is trying to do here (I think) but I don't see smith as instant scum for disagreeing with him or misinterpreting.

[mhsmith0]

Grey, for those of us having a hard time following this, how does your admission to bussing relate to 332 where you say you don't bus? I know you were trying to make a point but it doesn't look like either smith or myself are getting it.

As a general rule, I don't bus.

However, in that game, I was pretty much boxed into bussing because of reads I formulated as town that I was locked into once I became scum.

So while it was technically a bus, it didn't start out as the intention to sacrifice my team when I developed the scumread.

Clear as mud?

So basically the counter-example you came up with of a situation where you bussed was itself something highly unusual and is debatably an "exception proves the rule sort of thing", thus making me correct in the first place on my meta note, and the only real issue you have is that I found the wrong reason to be skeptical of it as a counter-example and didn't put in enough work to adequately figure out exactly the right reason to be skeptical of your counter-example?

[-Grey-]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

[DogWatch]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

Is that necessarily scummy?

[mhsmith0]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

Actually your beef with me is a contradictory mess. And presuming that your self-description of your meta is accurate are expressing game-relevant thoughts that take it into account is neither problematic nor scum-indicative, much as you seem to wish it was.

[-Grey-]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

Actually your beef with me is a contradictory mess. And presuming that your self-description of your meta is accurate are expressing game-relevant thoughts that take it into account is neither problematic nor scum-indicative, much as you seem to wish it was.

Simply untrue.

Self-meta is only proof of self-awareness. Anyone that takes it at face value is immediately suspect because once someone knows they do something as one alignment, it is a simple matter to duplicate it as the other.

So to simply accept self-meta is scummy because town would not be willing to provide such a simple pass.

[-Grey-]

No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.

As I have amply demonstrated.

Is that necessarily scummy?

Refer to 380.

[mhsmith0]

...
Simply untrue.

Self-meta is only proof of self-awareness. Anyone that takes it at face value is immediately suspect because once someone knows they do something as one alignment, it is a simple matter to duplicate it as the other.

So to simply accept self-meta is scummy because town would not be willing to provide such a simple pass.

So I bothered to try and remember where I saw you talk about bussing before. In 1770, the game I modded, where you were town, you said the following:

Subject: Newbie 1770: Water Game Over

bussing him

This is scum's! RC.

Lynch him tomorrow, because there is no way in hell he says this as town.

He knows for a fact that I don't bus.

Subject: Newbie 1770: Water Game Over

Besides, contrary to my claims when we were scumpartners I know better than to think that you never bus

Feel free to point out where I have ever bussed

Subject: Newbie 1770: Water Game Over

Anybody on this site can read my post games and see for themselves that I DON'T BUS AND HAVE NEVER, EVER BUSSED.

That's what makes you scum.

Subject: Newbie 1770: Water Game Over

And besides, if you genuinely believe that I genuinely believe that you never bus the exact optimal play is to hard bus and coast on me townreading you for it!

Sure, I'm going to burn down my entire belief system about bussing being shit play for scum just to win one newbie game.

That's the problem with scum. No long-range planning. Sufficient for the day is its worries, eh RC?

viewtopic.php?p=8817573#p8817573

Not bussing isn't a playstyle issue. It's a fucking religion with me.

I'm not going to sacrifice my beliefs just because of the player list.

Giga's quote in my sig is fucking law.

So yes, I'm inclined to believe your self-meta given that you embraced it THAT strongly when you were town, in a game that's now over (and like I said, I remembered that you had talked about it, while admittedly not remembering the specifics). Any further questions?

[-Grey-]

Oh, you modded that?

UNVOTE:

Fair enough.

I was... how did he know about that game?!

[mhsmith0]

I mean, I do skim some newbie games I'm not involved in from time to time too

PS I'm not sure whether to feel good or bad that you didn't remember my modding well enough to remember I modded it. Maybe a bit of both?

[-Grey-]

I mean, I do skim some newbie games I'm not involved in from time to time too

PS I'm not sure whether to feel good or bad that you didn't remember my modding well enough to remember I modded it. Maybe a bit of both?

I've already been in over twenty games. I assure you I meant no slight.

[mastina]

So. Announcement time: not quite able to go full-out yet (for more personal reasons rather than preference reasons--namely, I'm exhausted due to a lot of real-life shit), but while I won't be doing so tonight, I'll be doing so

soonish

. As soon as I can, in fact. While I prefer to wait as long as possible, I think we're basically reaching that point even if less got done than I would have preferred.

Probably need to skim some of mastinas scum games to see if she's good at faking conf!bias or not I guess.

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: would normally explain to you exactly how so, though that's detrimental to the learning experience within a game, so if it's really important for you to know then ask me postgame and I'll either explain in here or send a PM detailing to you exactly why.

Even longer answer: While I am indeed skilled at confirmation biasing as scum, I also am one of the few players on-site who knows the difference between confidence and arrogance. It is okay to ask yourself, "am I right?", and then conclude, "I actually think I am". I tend to exaggerate the strength of reads, usually to get reactions and/or people to follow me, but in spite of that exaggeration I am also honest with how much I believe my reads. As scum I can fake the exaggeration easily, though the specifics are too much of a tangent.

[mastina]

I used to ask a lot of questions. I tried to reduce it since they were deemed scummy actions and something along the line "asked too many questions, but give few opinions".

That's why you need to figure out:
-Which questions to ask
-What you are trying to accomplish with those questions
-What to follow through each question with
-What the ultimate result of your questions are: both the ones which went as expected and those that didn't.
Among others.

It's perfectly okay to have a style which utilizes heavy question-asking...but you have to know what your questions actually accomplish, essentially. Because if you do "give few opinions", then yeah it's easy for you to hide as scum behind the questions. Like I said, though--I can't really give you pointers, there. I don't honestly know the specifics of how to make the style work. I see others use it, but I'm not intimately familiar with it, so that goes beyond the scope of what I can teach you; you just need experience and experimentation and time to hone it, I suppose. (Or a teacher who uses this style. Having someone who knows this technique teach you would work as a jumpstart.)

[mastina]

For what it's worth: the first potential sign I got that I'm wrong on oldwino is this post.

But on the other hand (yes, I like fences, early in the game anyway when few if any of us, me anyway, really doesn't have a firm read on anyone). Smith said

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Hello everyone! I will be your lynchbait for this game

I fixed your typos. I guess it could be scum with a buddy who didn't advise him (or he didn't bother reading advice, or he's just going for a super awkward derp-clear attempt), but lynchbait is my gut reaction to that bit

Incidentally, this is one of the first things oldwino's said in which I actually feel like asking him a question about it would be productive regardless of his alignment/answer. Specifically,

Hey, oldwino:

Given the above, what's your take on:

VOTE: ulti
choo choo

...This?

[mastina]

are we really going to do this mastina?

I dunno, are we?

You're

the one who's apparently scumreading me. My stance is we're both town, so it's really your call, not mine.
So you tell me: are we?

[mastina]

If not, then I give up on this goose chase you've sent me on.

You picked up on the largest bit, but to expand: there's more to it than that. For that bit, for instance--are you familiar with the concept of projection? Most people use the word in a negative connotation. I actually embrace and readily use the terminology because I project, sort of.

If you have time to give feedback before I go serious, you can try to guess what I mean specifically by that point. Because I intend to go serious soon, I'll also highlight the parts that are relevant you missed:

while I'm a good teacher, I do my best teaching when I'm not expected to teach. But as your IC, I...am expected to teach, so I must apologize in advance if I fail to deliver the teaching experience you need to grow your game. Give you the resources you need, even if it's just "listen to what this other person said". (Teaching tends to be a group exercise: everyone involved learns, from the moderator to the IC to the SEs to every other player.)

(Okay ^this paragraph's not too important but it's still part.)

I am a player. I could be town or scum, but I'll have a wincon/agenda this game, where I'm aiming for a win. However, I will never lie to you about game theory. Ever. I won't misdirect/mislead you. I won't place my alignment above my teaching duty. That said, game theory is, largely...highly subjective. Just because I won't lie to you about it doesn't mean what I say about it is, necessarily, "true". Use your judgment given time and experience to determine what advice I give you is helpful or not.
I am human, and prone to error. Burden of Proficiency is still a fallacy. Regardless of my alignment, I can and will make mistakes.

My teaching style in a game is, largely, "roll with the game": I will teach by example and give thoughts as they come up.

In short, my job isn't to teach you to play, so much as it is to guide you on your natural path.

All of these are relevant at least to THIS game.

My view on the game is balancing possibilities versus probabilities.
I'm an unorthodox player. I say my first language is "concepts", and my second language is English; my posts translate concepts to words. This has benefits where I see things others would miss, pressing people on the smallest/subtlest of details, but also carries three obvious downsides:
Inability to communicate properly, Verbosity, and sometimes being utterly wrong about my alternative ideas.

One quirk I have is viewing every player simultaneously as town and scum. I view each possibility, and then I weigh them, to determine probability. Which makes more sense?
As both alignments, I express generalities, expecting players to fill in specifics. Their interpretations not only allow them growth as players, but also allow me to get a better idea of their alignment(/how to manipulate them) off of how they respond. As town, I'll try to defuse heated debates I feel are counterproductive, but if I feel they could be useful, I'll let them continue and weigh in only when I feel it gives something useful. (Often, one leads to another.)
As scum, I'll direct the spotlight so that town are fighting town. I'll still give commentary on it, just like as town, but I won't try to defuse town-town debates, because I need town to lynch town. I prefer minimal involvement in contributing to town lynches, because it positions myself to look better/positions the town to mislynch twice in a row (namely, the primary town pusher of the now-flipped-town).

I like to flirt around a fair amount: just talk about random stuff that enters my mind, rambling about.
My expectation of this game is that every player is given the tools they need to continue their career here on mafiascum.net.

And so are these. You got the largest part, but there's a context to it you didn't get, and the bits immediately above the bits you got entirely change things. These are all the important parts.

I intend to explain this soon--very soon. I'm no longer waiting for a particular gamestate to happen, so much as I am a particular time in which I am physically capable of laying out my thoughts. (Explaining things in detail drains my very very very inconsiderable stamina. It's exhausting and takes a lot of effort for me to do--which is part of the answer by the way, and one of the things I even mention above!) So I'll try to get back to you on this ASAP with an actual laid-out process.

But. If you can beat me to it, I would encourage you to try. It might be a bit frustrating, but the guessing process is highly educational--I promise it is. You don't have to guess anymore (because I'm going to give you the answer as soon as I can), but all the same I still do encourage you to try if you can.

[mastina]

If you care enough to make a meaningful discussion point of it, explain what you think I missed.

Soon!
But not now!
And not the game thread's state making me say that; purely personal problem!

Basically, I have a perfect mind's eye of what I want to say on

everything

, start to finish, in the game.
Bringing that concept into reality, into English words, is a bit tricky--I need to not only figure out what words to say, to use, to explain my view, but also what order to present them in. It's a mentally exhausting effort and is one of the many reasons in a typical game I tend to be lazy and not go into detail about it, but I did promise you I would do it this game and I specifically designed my teaching style this game around the concept of this "keep mind's eye view in mind for a while, then when the time is right reveal everything as to show how I worked to get where I did and why", so it'll get done.

Just...I need the energy, the time, the condition (physically not tired, mentally not exhausted, emotionally not compromised), and situation to do it. The last has been fulfilled (we have the right situation for it), but the time/condition I need to set aside which right now I haven't. I do apologize for the delay, and hope it'll be worth the wait when I do give it.

Also, unrelated:
VOTE: mhsmith0.
I want to be voting here more than oldwino.

[mastina]

I don't consider it remotely acceptable to withold explanations indefinitely, ESPECIALLY doing so while demanding more clarity from others. And since you're citing being an IC as a reason to be LESS forthright, I'll cite the IC guidelines that you linked

The easiest way for newbies to learn is to watch good players playing at their best. Do not attempt to water down your game, or play any differently in terms of your objectives as you would in any other game. Make sure you're playing to win, and make sure you attack just as hard as you would in any other game. Do not attempt to coddle the newbies by playing down to their level, as that will not help them advance as players, and that's pretty much the point of the game.

So to the extent you're choosing to be less helpful than normal just becuase you're the IC, please stop doing that regardless of your alignment. "I won't bother explaining stuff until postgame" is completely unacceptable.

One: I don't recall saying I was going to withhold explanations indefinitely--quite the contrary, I was rather explicit in saying I was going to tell people at the appropriate time. The appropriate time would be now if I had the stamina to do so. (Instead it is ASAP--but still VERY close to now.)

Two: it is the very same passage you are quoting which is why I have played this way. I went to achieve very specific goals, goals I would accomplish in any game by using nearly identical methods. This IS my normal play, just slightly modified and exaggerated in a way which is convenient to a very specific teaching style. I did in fact achieve a fair number of those goals, albeit not as many as I was hoping for.

Three: I have been incredibly helpful, just not in an orthodox way, which is where waiting for the fucking explanation comes in. (And I do apologize for the delay--now would be the time to give it, but real life is real life. Shit happened and even if it hadn't--it's 3:30 AM as I type this, and the explanation I estimate will take 2-3 hours. I literally CAN'T give it right now even though I want to.)

Four: I never said I wasn't going to explain things until postgame--simply that as an IC I am within my rights to do so. Why? Because if I were a scum IC, then holding back on a full explanation would simply be my wincon. Trying to get every player to play at their maximum possible skill level is arguably against the wincon of a scum IC. And so, an IC is allowed to hold back on explaining their actions until postgame. In said postgame, a scum IC should lay out why they did what they did, but a scum IC is not required to say anything sooner than then, and this is what I was referring to. People don't expect a scum IC to explain how they are playing and being a scum IC in the middle of the game, except possibly to scum partners during the night. They DO expect the explanation postgame, but not before then.

That's why I said "potentially as late as postgame". But with that, was the implication that a town IC will explain prior to postgame: at the time THEY deem it appropriate, which is point five. An IC (especially a town one) can and will hold back from immediately explaining something to a newbie, if they deem it an appropriate play and/or an appropriate teaching strategy. (So long as they then go on to explain their action and what it was they were trying to accomplish, which I intend to do.) I deemed it both.

[mastina]

...And what, perhaps, are you doing with those reads?
Keeping them to yourself is obvious enough, but I mean aside from that.

I'm keeping them to myself less than you might think; just because I didn't dump out reads lists doesn't mean that I've been closed with what I think, or that it's impossible to figure out what I'm thinking about people based on what I've been saying. If you require further clarification, substantive questions (like "what do you think about player X, because I don't understand where you are on him/her/it") would be more productive than your current approach.

The question stands. I asked you what you are doing with your reads. That was the part I was asking about.

[mastina]

I feel like this is my opportunity to utilize what mastina told us about discerning town-town arguments from town-scum arguments, but I'm blowing that opportunity because I can't even follow the damn argument.

You're not alone.
Welcome to mafiascum's greatest lesson: the art of skimming.
Because people on mafiascum talk a lot, it can become difficult (even impossible) to read every post (which is one reason why I understand people having missed my own), and read everything within the post. To play in a game, you have to pick and choose your battles. You have to do your best to get the gist of a fight, and pay attention to what it reveals--not so much what it's about, as what it can tell you.

In that regard: the aggressive push from Grey is something I would strongly think to be town. He really believes what he says, and he's actually notably angry even in his tone: that frustration, that level of strong emotion, is not something I associate with scum. So at the very least, you can determine his half is town.

When it comes to mhsmith, there's less conclusive at least when skimming. Maybe if I read his posts in greater detail I would be able to lock it down, though from the exchange I would have the tendency to lean scum on him: in the entire exchange, he is mostly on the defensive. He is spending energy trying to prove Grey wrong, to get Grey off his back. His tone is either flat or annoyed, difficult to tell without reading closer which--but even if it's annoyed, the annoyance in this exchange is null at best.

Basically: Grey was pushing points with the attempt to do something with them and was visibly unsettled at the strong resistance to these points. That's something I typically think of as town since it's hard to fake as scum. mhsmith was bringing up points and not doing much with them aside from using them to counter Grey's points. This is an attitude I tend to associate more with scum.

[mastina]

As you've surely seen by now, Smith is a very detail-oriented player... so when he starts deliberately ignoring details to favor his narrative, it provokes my suspicion.

This is a very small part of my scumread on mhsmith, but is not the main contributing factor. Again, it's more what he's

not

doing than it is what he's doing. (Though also present are things which he has done which he shouldn't be doing.)

I'll lay it out when I explain everything at the very latest--I might even give a basic not-in-depth explanation prior to then, though that really depends on how long it takes for me to write my explains-everything process. (If it takes me a few days to write out my full explanation, I should probably write out the basics behind my mhsmith read sooner than that. If I can get the explanation done, saaaaaaaaaaaay, tomorrow, then no need for it to be before then.)

[mastina]

Not once you get some experience under your belt and learn to look beyond superficial appearances.

This is one of the main things I've been trying to encourage with my process, by the way. This is essential in the longrun for a mafia career. My lack of explanations is meant to deliberately trigger this: FORCE players to think about my actions and look beyond the superficial surface. That's one of the teaching reasons why I delay the explanations for a few days minimum, ideally about a week (which is where we're at). It allows the players the chance to see me produce a fair amount of content, and for there to be a fair amount of content in the thread already...and then for them to actually try to decipher it.

And when they don't get it perfect (because honestly, who could? Not even a veteran could get 100% of what I've written though most probably can get over 90% especially if they know me), I go on to give the explanation. Ideally I'd be giving it literally right now, but it is quite literally 4 AM (4:05 to be more precise) as I type this so I really can't give it

this second

even though I want to. (That's my fault for letting my real life interfere with the game. Real life > mafia life, but I'm hoping it's only a one or two day slight inconvenience in delayed timing.)

[PenguinPower]

Icy replaces JustDanceWorld effective immediately

[PenguinPower]

[color=blue

]Ulti and aa-dono are being prodded

[/color]

[PenguinPower]