Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[PenguinPower]

Vote Count 1.12

Ulti

(2): mhsmith0, aa-dono

mastina

(2): oldwino, DogWatch

-Grey-

(1): RadiantCowbells

mhsmith0

(1): mastina

Not Voting

: Icy, Ulti, -Grey-
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-03-15 06:05:00)

[PenguinPower]

Ulti has requested a replacement

[oldwino]

:\

Anything I can do to improve your experience?

The other newbies have to get active. I think Grey and Smith have been so prolific, they are intimidating the newbies and they are afraid to say much for fear of being deemed scum, or naive, or whatever - except for me and Dog. Guess we are just naturally a little bolder than the others.

Again, in 1771, a virgin newbie (is that in the glossary?) was VT but was so intimidated, he didn't say much, he asked dumb questions, and was the first one lynched (my fault, I hammered, but he really looked and acted scummy, given what I thought scum would act like in my first game).

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

[-Grey-]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

[oldwino]

BTW, thanks Penguin Power for the beautiful SPRING pictures on your vc's.

You're welcome

-PenguinMod

[oldwino]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

Thanks. But don't go away completely. Reading your and the other experienced players' thinking about townie and scummy behavior of others, your thoughts on their alignments and why (and lying about that if you are scum - that's necessary and important to the game, and for us to learn), is critical for our learning. Moreso than the walls that have, in my opinion, taken up too much time and space. Just my opinion.

[oldwino]

Checking out for a while. Maybe be back later tonight, maybe not. Drinks, dinner, TV, sleep.

[PenguinPower]

pieg replaces Ulti effective immediately.

[pieg]

Hi all.

reading up

UNVOTE:

[pieg]

don't have time to respond in depth until tomorrow but i do want to poke at this quickly

Did one complete read through and hope to do another tonight, or tomorrow.

Yes I am the BP, and yes I think that removes some of the fun of playing the game!

do you have any reads? going over the game again and again will really only get you so far. interacting with slots in real time is where the gold's at imo. if you're bp you're pretty much guaranteed to live through this thing until lylo and that makes you a kind of rock for us to stand on if you can give us stances and push slots. also like why does it remove the fun? i fucking love being conftown personally, bp on top of that is just jackpot because you can do whatever the fuck you want and no one can mess with you, it lets you flex your full range in a way that you really can't with other role, even treestump (voteless). granted, i wouldn't expect you be leading town or anything given that this is a newbie and all but i'd encourage you to see the bright side of life here (da-dun-da-dun-da-dun) and take advantage of the situation, it sure doesn't come often.

[mastina]

The mod's scumclaiming in this post given this game is titled SPRING.

[mastina]

I want to respond to Mastina's question to me about Smith's wagon on Ulti. Today, I still think Ulti is just too new and scared to participate. But, I ask myself, 'why would he be so afraid, basically frozen with fear?' I think he's afraid to post, to play, because he is scum. A new townie may be afraid to post, afraid they'd make a mistake, but not so afraid that they would keep so quiet. If a new townie is lynched on D1, there are still 6 more townies to carry the game. But if he's scum and is lynched, he's leaving his scum partner out there all alone. So, now I'm leaning scum on Ulti because of his apparent fear to post and play.

And why would Smith start a wagon on Ulti? Frustration maybe? Trying to get a reaction from Ulti, pressuring him to play? And maybe Smith really does think Ulti is scum. Or maybe, several pages ago, to get a reaction from others? But since Smith's vote is still on Ulti, and surprisingly to me not changed to Grey, I've got to believe Smith still thinks Ulti is scum.

That's nice and good and all, but this isn't what I was asking. I was asking what you thought of MHSMITH, with these two back to back:

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Hello everyone! I will be your lynchbait for this game

I fixed your typos. I guess it could be scum with a buddy who didn't advise him (or he didn't bother reading advice, or he's just going for a super awkward derp-clear attempt), but lynchbait is my gut reaction to that bit

VOTE: ulti
choo choo

[mastina]

Grey's push on me came across as dumb much more than it did scum, my questions to / engagement with him was primarily "wtf are you even doing here" as opposed to "I think you're scum for it"

And therein lies the problem: if you were town, and you felt that Grey was town, then you entering into the debate with him is just as stupid as Grey. As a wise man once said:
"Never argue with a fool. People might not be able to tell the difference."
...Basically my problem is that you spent all that time on something you yourself admit was a waste of time: you were reading Grey as town, and you weren't entering that debate to get a better read on him at all. You were spending time and effort on something which wasn't productive, which you KNEW wasn't productive.

[-Grey-]

Words wound, mastina.

[mastina]

As a result, I am indeed holding you to a different stance than I am holding myself to--from you, I expect explanations; from me, explanations aren't expected until an appropriate time (potentially as late as postgame, even!).

This implied that you, at the very least, are considering witholding explanations indefinitely, and maybe even as late as postgame.

Did it now?
"An appropriate time" is an admittedly ambiguous phrase--but inherent in it is "a time will come when it will happen...just, at the RIGHT time". That means it'll happen definitely. That means it is a thing which will occur. 100% it will be given, inherent in the phrase.
This was further emphasized by the parenthesis--"potentially as late as postgame" implies there's the POTENTIAL for it to be that late...with the implication that

most likely

, it's going to come before then.

FWIW, I don't care if your explanations are slightly delayed. It's not quite the middle of D1 yet, so RL/health/etc issues happen and i don't have an issue with it, provided that it's coming soon.

Actually it is the middle of D1. Past it by now. The game started on Tuesday last week. Deadlines are two weeks, so we are past the half-way mark. But yes, it'll be soon. I wanted it to be today, but I couldn't quite get my shit together (which I am constantly telling myself I need to do), so I'll have to delay at least one more day (hopefully no more).

As an IC, you're a player first, and a teacher second. So no, I don't think you're within your rights to withold explantions or lean on "I'm the IC, I don't have to explain myself" as an excuse.

You have it backwards: the reason I'm not required to explain myself isn't because I'm an IC, but because I'm a player. (And as a player I have a natural inclination from holding back regardless of alignment.) It's simply that AS the IC, I AM expected to explain myself...eventually. At some undefined point. Potentially as late as postgame.

[mastina]

let's not bog this game down in an argument over the role of an IC.

It is unfortunately relevant to certain details, though my stance was made clear in my first post on the subject.

[mastina]

How am I supposed to confidently learn from someone who might be actively working against me?

For a start, ICs don't lie about theory. I personally consider it unethical to hold

anything

back, or to tell ANY mistruth when it comes to theory. As a scum IC I am required to lie about my reads and lie about my reasons...until postgame when I lay them out, and from those players can learn.

But you have my word that regardless of my alignment anything I say on theory is my viewpoint for real, because I wouldn't hold back any critical information, I wouldn't misapply advice, I wouldn't misdirect, I wouldn't mislead, I wouldn't lie, about anything game-theory-related. This, namely because I hold extreme pride in being a teacher, and teaching a falsehood even if only temporarily is beyond unacceptable to me. (Also because as scum it's easier for me to tell the truth than to lie, because often telling the truth doesn't hurt me whereas telling a lie is inconvenient.)

This doesn't even feel like a newbie game anyway. Half the players are experienced and only two newbies are trying to contribute, oldwino and myself. Not very fun, not very helpful.

I do apologize for that, though you also have aa-dono more or less present if it makes you feel slightly better. I did note the high ratio of experienced players early-on and anticipate it would be trouble, but I was hoping it wouldn't come up. It has...and there's not much I can really do to help you there. I don't think there's any strategy I could take--even if I fully explained all of my reads from the start in crystal clarity, I'd still be largely pushing mhsmith and pushing him hard, which is part of your problem (the experienced players butting heads), meaning I can't really help you.

The best advice I can really offer you is: patience, along with time. Have faith. Not necessarily in any individual player. But in the game itself, that it will get better. Especially post-D1. Many games suffer from a slugfest where big names clash with each other and produce a ton of content making things difficult to read--and you can't really stop it. All you can do is live through it, and then when it slows down (it always does), analyze the fallout from it.

I suppose you can do a few things. You can try to increase your own influence. If you're dissatisfied being an ignored voice in the corner...do something which makes yourself hard to ignore. Be larger. Be louder. Increase your aggression. Ask more to more players. Try to explain your views, and get them to explain theirs. Get them to follow you. This doesn't work for everyone, but it wouldn't hurt to try.

[mastina]

Not sure where she's drawn the line.

I'm rather unambiguous about this: I will not lie about anything. I will not misapply in any way whatsoever anything. I will not misdirect. I will not omit critical info with no indication I am doing so. (That is, giving the appearance of telling everything when in truth I am holding something back.) I will not deceive.

Now. There can be overlap between teaching and play...but this overlap is not alignment indicative.
If I am town, then I chose to hold information back--both because I thought it would be a good teaching experience

and

because I thought there was a pro-town value in having done so.
If I am scum, then I chose to hold information back--both because I thought it would be a good teaching experience

and

because I thought there was pro-scum value in having done so. (Probably pro-scum value which would appear on the surface to be pro-town.)

In either case, I made a call where doing an action was both teaching and for play...but because it can occur as either alignment, my role as a teacher remains separated from my role as a player. Now, I'll admit. Some of my lessons double as me laying the groundwork for future content of mine--but in those lessons, the above remains true.
If I am town, the lesson was an IC lesson, and doubled as groundwork for future content I would use to push the game closer to a hopefully pro-town state.
If I am scum, the lesson was an IC lesson, and doubled as groundwork for future content I would use to push the game closer to a hopefully pro-scum state. In either case, it is still an IC lesson separated from my alignment, even if it's not separated from my play.

This is how every IC should operate in my opinion, though sadly not all of them do.

[mastina]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

Incidentally, that's one of the reasons why I held back on my reasons!

At least in theory, by me not giving my presence at maximum, by me holding back my full reasons, by me NOT monopolizing the game by being very loud about my reasons, the idea there is that I would encourage newbies to actually

think

about my content, my contribution, and what it is I was trying to accomplish...allowing them to feel like they actually were giving something to the game rather than just being held by the hand and told directly "this is the case. This is why this is the case. Because this is the case, this is what we'll be doing", and that's what would have happened if I shared my reads immediately.

[mastina]

Hi all. reading up
UNVOTE:

I'm a bit saddened and disappointed that Ulti left, and I feel that leaving was partially because Ulti didn't know how to handle the game and I feel a bit responsible for that.

I also am a little bit disheartened that we didn't get a newbie to replace the newbie slot.
I do have to ask, though. pieg, are you:
-A public alt (such as me switching from mastin2 to mastina)
-A publicly known alt (that is, a player making no secret they are an alt but not sharing their identity),
-Or just a player really really really REALLY bad at hiding them being an alt?

Because 434 tells me you're sure as fuck not a newbie.

[mastina]

Words wound, mastina.

Apologies, that wording was unclear on my end.
I was saying essentially that mhsmith held that opinion of you (one I do not hold)--and that him holding that opinion of you yet engaging you

anyway

was not something I'd associate as being town.

[mastina]

Incidentally, if you're interested in verifying my teaching history: here are my relatively recent IC games.

Two of the above, I was scum.
The rest were town.
In both, my teaching was about the same. (Though from memory I may have actually taught more as scum? Would have to read in detail to confirm that.) In none did I lie.

[mastina]

(Yes relatively recent is two and a half years ago--I've not IC'd much because bipolar disorder can make it difficult to consistently live up to the necessary standards of an IC, but nowadays I have it more or less at a manageable level. Sort-of.)

[-Grey-]

Words wound, mastina.

Apologies, that wording was unclear on my end.
I was saying essentially that mhsmith held that opinion of you (one I do not hold)--and that him holding that opinion of you yet engaging you

anyway

was not something I'd associate as being town.

My remark was tongue in cheek, a playful nod to a line in Person of Interest.

Sorry if it came across as serious.

[oldwino]

I want to respond to Mastina's question to me about Smith's wagon on Ulti. Today, I still think Ulti is just too new and scared to participate. But, I ask myself, 'why would he be so afraid, basically frozen with fear?' I think he's afraid to post, to play, because he is scum. A new townie may be afraid to post, afraid they'd make a mistake, but not so afraid that they would keep so quiet. If a new townie is lynched on D1, there are still 6 more townies to carry the game. But if he's scum and is lynched, he's leaving his scum partner out there all alone. So, now I'm leaning scum on Ulti because of his apparent fear to post and play.

And why would Smith start a wagon on Ulti? Frustration maybe? Trying to get a reaction from Ulti, pressuring him to play? And maybe Smith really does think Ulti is scum. Or maybe, several pages ago, to get a reaction from others? But since Smith's vote is still on Ulti, and surprisingly to me not changed to Grey, I've got to believe Smith still thinks Ulti is scum.

That's nice and good and all, but this isn't what I was asking. I was asking what you thought of MHSMITH, with these two back to back:

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Hello everyone! I will be your lynchbait for this game

I fixed your typos. I guess it could be scum with a buddy who didn't advise him (or he didn't bother reading advice, or he's just going for a super awkward derp-clear attempt), but lynchbait is my gut reaction to that bit

VOTE: ulti
choo choo

I think in both posts Smith was trying to get Ulti to participate. The first one, maybe a bit sarcastic and humorous (humorous sarcasm) but still trying to stimulate some better participation. The second post, the wagon whistle, shows more suspicion that Ulti many be scum, but despite Smith's thoughts about Ulti's alignment, Smith was trying to get Ulti to participate. I think both of these Smith posts were townish, even if only slightly so. Townish (I knew you'd ask) because they are trying to get someone who is appearing scummy to defend themselves, to participate, hence drawing them out to potentially better expose their scummyness, rather than keep quiet, keep their head down.