Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[Icy]

As a result, I am indeed holding you to a different stance than I am holding myself to--from you, I expect explanations; from me, explanations aren't expected until an appropriate time (potentially as late as postgame, even!).

This implied that you, at the very least, are considering witholding explanations indefinitely, and maybe even as late as postgame.

Did it now?
"An appropriate time" is an admittedly ambiguous phrase--but inherent in it is "a time will come when it will happen...just, at the RIGHT time". That means it'll happen definitely. That means it is a thing which will occur. 100% it will be given, inherent in the phrase.
This was further emphasized by the parenthesis--"potentially as late as postgame" implies there's the POTENTIAL for it to be that late...with the implication that

most likely

, it's going to come before then.

FWIW, I don't care if your explanations are slightly delayed. It's not quite the middle of D1 yet, so RL/health/etc issues happen and i don't have an issue with it, provided that it's coming soon.

Actually it is the middle of D1. Past it by now. The game started on Tuesday last week. Deadlines are two weeks, so we are past the half-way mark.

But yes, it'll be soon. I wanted it to be today, but I couldn't quite get my shit together (which I am constantly telling myself I need to do), so I'll have to delay at least one more day (hopefully no more).

As an IC, you're a player first, and a teacher second. So no, I don't think you're within your rights to withold explantions or lean on "I'm the IC, I don't have to explain myself" as an excuse.

You have it backwards: the reason I'm not required to explain myself isn't because I'm an IC, but because I'm a player. (And as a player I have a natural inclination from holding back regardless of alignment.) It's simply that AS the IC, I AM expected to explain myself...eventually. At some undefined point. Potentially as late as postgame.

This is just a bad case of stall. It seems clear to me that you don't want to give your explanations, you answered posts for 1 hour and 45 minutes.

[oldwino]

Not sure where she's drawn the line.

I'm rather unambiguous about this: I will not lie about anything. I will not misapply in any way whatsoever anything. I will not misdirect. I will not omit critical info with no indication I am doing so. (That is, giving the appearance of telling everything when in truth I am holding something back.) I will not deceive.

Now. There can be overlap between teaching and play...but this overlap is not alignment indicative.
If I am town, then I chose to hold information back--both because I thought it would be a good teaching experience

and

because I thought there was a pro-town value in having done so.
If I am scum, then I chose to hold information back--both because I thought it would be a good teaching experience

and

because I thought there was pro-scum value in having done so. (Probably pro-scum value which would appear on the surface to be pro-town.)

In either case, I made a call where doing an action was both teaching and for play...but because it can occur as either alignment, my role as a teacher remains separated from my role as a player. Now, I'll admit. Some of my lessons double as me laying the groundwork for future content of mine--but in those lessons, the above remains true.
If I am town, the lesson was an IC lesson, and doubled as groundwork for future content I would use to push the game closer to a hopefully pro-town state.
If I am scum, the lesson was an IC lesson, and doubled as groundwork for future content I would use to push the game closer to a hopefully pro-scum state. In either case, it is still an IC lesson separated from my alignment, even if it's not separated from my play.

This is how every IC should operate in my opinion, though sadly not all of them do.

Thanks for the short explanation. I think I understand it, but don't think you're accomplishing the separation as well as you think you are. Still, I truly appreciate the time and effort you put into your IC role. I think it must be hard, being an IC with the approach you take, and being scum at the same time. If you were town, you'd be less conflicted about your role differentiation, IMO.

[oldwino]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

Incidentally, that's one of the reasons why I held back on my reasons!

At least in theory, by me not giving my presence at maximum, by me holding back my full reasons, by me NOT monopolizing the game by being very loud about my reasons, the idea there is that I would encourage newbies to actually

think

about my content, my contribution, and what it is I was trying to accomplish...allowing them to feel like they actually were giving something to the game rather than just being held by the hand and told directly "this is the case. This is why this is the case. Because this is the case, this is what we'll be doing", and that's what would have happened if I shared my reads immediately.

Of course, this sounds townie. You probably could overinfluence newbies if you shared too early. But by not sharing, by holding off this long, you're not helping town. And you're protecting yourself, if you are scum, from meaningful posts we could poke holes in. We (town) need your help, especially as we approach a critical point in D1. We have to start getting some genuine wagons going because once we do, if someone claims the other PR, we'll have to regroup. I think we're in danger already of a hasty lynch or even a no lynch, which will benefit scum. And I promise you, I won't be overly influenced by your reasons, your logic. But will be influenced if I think they are sound town observations and conclusions.

[Icy]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

[PenguinPower]

aa-dono has failed to respond to her prod and is being replaced. If she returns before a replacement is found, she may continue to play.

[DogWatch]

And if so, I really don't see you trying to diffuse anything. You largely didn't enter that argument at all, preferring to talk about your reads and other odds and ends. So, unless I'm missing something big (and it's always possible that I am), that points to your scum self.

@mastina Are you going to address this?

[mhsmith0]

I want to respond to Mastina's question to me about Smith's wagon on Ulti. Today, I still think Ulti is just too new and scared to participate. But, I ask myself, 'why would he be so afraid, basically frozen with fear?' I think he's afraid to post, to play, because he is scum. A new townie may be afraid to post, afraid they'd make a mistake, but not so afraid that they would keep so quiet. If a new townie is lynched on D1, there are still 6 more townies to carry the game. But if he's scum and is lynched, he's leaving his scum partner out there all alone. So, now I'm leaning scum on Ulti because of his apparent fear to post and play.

And why would Smith start a wagon on Ulti? Frustration maybe? Trying to get a reaction from Ulti, pressuring him to play? And maybe Smith really does think Ulti is scum. Or maybe, several pages ago, to get a reaction from others? But since Smith's vote is still on Ulti, and surprisingly to me not changed to Grey, I've got to believe Smith still thinks Ulti is scum.

That's nice and good and all, but this isn't what I was asking. I was asking what you thought of MHSMITH, with these two back to back:

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Hello everyone! I will be your lynchbait for this game

I fixed your typos. I guess it could be scum with a buddy who didn't advise him (or he didn't bother reading advice, or he's just going for a super awkward derp-clear attempt), but lynchbait is my gut reaction to that bit

VOTE: ulti
choo choo

Framing the issue in this way is bad and you should feel bad (regardless of your alignment). You're basically saying "first smith said one thing, and then smith said another thing sometime later" without any consideration of the context and/or events that happened in between. For starters, consider ulti's ISO in that time frame:

Spoiler:

Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?

Hello everyone! I will be your lynchbait for this game

I fixed your typos. I guess it could be scum with a buddy who didn't advise him (or he didn't bother reading advice, or he's just going for a super awkward derp-clear attempt), but lynchbait is my gut reaction to that bit

What is lynch bait?

What is lynch bait?

A player who plays in a way that makes everyone (or at least a bunch of people) want to lynch him/her.

Thank you I have not played this before and am unfamiliar with game terms

I am not a 1-shot bulletproof.

VOTE: mastina

I didnt know how to vote sorry
I voted them because I have a feeling they are bad and because rather than trying to defend themself they are posting things like "frankly i dont give a damn" and town members should be trying harder than that

VOTE: mastinaVOTE:

mastina,

I get the unmistakeable feeling that you are scumreading both mhsmith0 and oldwino.

This doesn't jibe with me, because mhsmith0 and oldwino are both voting you.

Now if this were, say, aa-domo and oldwino you were scumreading together that were both voting you, I would consider it plausible.

But I don't buy for a second that both members of the scumteam would be voting you together so early in d1 when one of those alleged scum are experienced.

That's besides the fact I have a townread on oldwino. His confidence and candor just feels town.

didnt she say she thought 2 scum were already "on her wagon" which I think means voting her?

didnt she say she thought 2 scum were already "on her wagon" which I think means voting her?

Don't stop there.

Finish your thought if you're going to start one.

She is an experienced player and if she does think 2 scum are voting her then it would make sense for her to be scum reading two people voting her

I didnt know how to vote sorry
I voted them because I have a feeling they are bad and because rather than trying to defend themself they are posting things like "frankly i dont give a damn"

and town members should be trying harder than that

[/u][/b]
This is basically the epitome of pot calling kettle black. Why do you have a feeling she's bad?

I just have a feeling but i dont know. I read some forum mafia terminology and I think it is what you call "gut reading"

Where did you read it? I'm always looking for more information on mafia theory.

I read some of the wiki and some topics in Mafia Discussion and saw things about "reading off gut" which can be shortened to "gutreading".

Awesome, like where?

Shouldn't be hard to provide a link that talks about reading off gut, if you found something in the wiki. I'd like to see what you have found out about the game so far.

There is nothing that talks about reading off gut, there are plenty of references to "gut" on most pages. Try going to a random page or player pages and a lot of places especially game records will list how they read off gut during that game or how it worked this game etc

and then also consider the context of everything else that happened in that time frame. If you think my behavior here is scummy, you should have more to say than "look smith said something that kinda defended ulti and then three days later placed an seemingly empty-looking wagon vote on ulti, now please tell me why you think smith is scummy for it".

[mhsmith0]

Grey's push on me came across as dumb much more than it did scum, my questions to / engagement with him was primarily "wtf are you even doing here" as opposed to "I think you're scum for it"

And therein lies the problem: if you were town, and you felt that Grey was town, then you entering into the debate with him is just as stupid as Grey. As a wise man once said:
"Never argue with a fool. People might not be able to tell the difference."
...Basically my problem is that you spent all that time on something you yourself admit was a waste of time: you were reading Grey as town, and you weren't entering that debate to get a better read on him at all. You were spending time and effort on something which wasn't productive, which you KNEW wasn't productive.

1) As I noted, I was trying to figure out what he was even getting at. He's hard-pushing that I've basically scum-claimed, without being remotely clear about exactly WHAT I did that was supposedly scum-indicative. Understanding what people are saying and why they're saying it is important, which again is something that you ought to know (you ALSO ought to know by now that I'm big on getting people to explain themselves, fwiw).

Moreover, I MIGHT BE WRONG about Grey. So the fact that I THINK he's town does not make my engagement unproductive. So far he's hard-pushed two people (RC and now me) based on what should have been transparently obviously bad reasons, which means that attention DOES need to be paid to it. You're twisting "I think he's town" and "the way he engaged with his bullshit case seemed non-wolfy" into "I KNEW he was town" or even the lesser "I showed no curiosity as to his alignment in the back and forth", which is pretty transparently obvious bullshit.

2) Even beyond the first two points, even if you think that all I was doing there was defending myself (not accurate btw), why do you think that's scum-indicative? Let's take the hypothetical where town!smith has a super strong town read on Grey (not true at the time), and Grey is basically screaming for my head based on what looks like utter nonsense... what exactly do you expect me to be doing there? You're happy to say that I'm scum for my behavior, but for it to be indicative at all of scum, you should have an expectation for how either generic townie X or town!smith would behave. Surely you don't expect me to just ignore it? So what DO you expect me to be doing there?

[mhsmith0]

When it comes to mhsmith, there's less conclusive at least when skimming. Maybe if I read his posts in greater detail I would be able to lock it down, though from the exchange I would have the tendency to lean scum on him: in the entire exchange, he is mostly on the defensive. He is spending energy trying to prove Grey wrong, to get Grey off his back. His tone is either flat or annoyed, difficult to tell without reading closer which--but even if it's annoyed, the annoyance in this exchange is null at best.

This is probably going to come across as jerkish, but if you're representing that I'm your strongest scumread, you should be more than skimming something that you consider to be a potentially readable exchange.

[mhsmith0]

As a result, I am indeed holding you to a different stance than I am holding myself to--from you, I expect explanations; from me, explanations aren't expected until an appropriate time (potentially as late as postgame, even!).

This implied that you, at the very least, are considering witholding explanations indefinitely, and maybe even as late as postgame.

Did it now?
"An appropriate time" is an admittedly ambiguous phrase--but inherent in it is "a time will come when it will happen...just, at the RIGHT time". That means it'll happen definitely. That means it is a thing which will occur. 100% it will be given, inherent in the phrase.
This was further emphasized by the parenthesis--"potentially as late as postgame" implies there's the POTENTIAL for it to be that late...with the implication that

most likely

, it's going to come before then.

I don't especially want to get bogged down in the nitpicking of language, but if you think that you were actually being clear that you were actually going to be explaining yourself sometime soon, you're simply wrong. If you're going to go with "well maybe I'd explain myself like day 2 or day 3 and that's still ok", I would once again strongly disagree, as I've talked about before.

FWIW, I don't care if your explanations are slightly delayed. It's not quite the middle of D1 yet, so RL/health/etc issues happen and i don't have an issue with it, provided that it's coming soon.

Actually it is the middle of D1. Past it by now. The game started on Tuesday last week. Deadlines are two weeks, so we are past the half-way mark. But yes, it'll be soon. I wanted it to be today, but I couldn't quite get my shit together (which I am constantly telling myself I need to do), so I'll have to delay at least one more day (hopefully no more).

nitpicky note: day 1 started last Wednesday morning, so it's only this morning that then became now

[mhsmith0]

Grey could be scum, Oldwino still a townlean

Could you talk about these two in particular? Grey's been making some transparently bad pushes, but the manner in which he's done them seems reasonably villagery to me, though I admit I'm not super familiar w his scum game, and am curious how this compares to the game you two were scum together and/or anything else you expect from scum!grey.
Also, could you talk a bit about why you town lean on OW? You've stated that you do, but I don't think you've talked about why.

PS Don't need any kind of essay on either, but at least a couple sentences on each would be helpful.

RC, could you answer this when you get time? Please and thank you.

[PenguinPower]

Darklyn replace aa-dono effective immediately

[Darklyn]

Sup lads, this is my first game, will read through the thread

[-Grey-]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

My activity dwarfs that of pretty much everybody else in this game.

If you're going to poke the bear, you better have something better than that pathetic stick.

[Darklyn]

VOTE: RadiantCowbells
has made an effort to drift through the game without being noticed

mhsmith0: seems a little nervous and worried how others perceive him

DogWatch: Gut feeling says town so far

oldwino: Town vibe, trying to be helpful, he is a pretty confident if a newbie scum

pieg: Hasn't posted enough to form an opinion

Grey: Ehh Null, posting style isn't indicative of anything to me

mastina: Difficult player to read

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: darklyn

sure let's do this

[Darklyn]

Cringed tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

t b h

[mastina]

This is just a bad case of stall. It seems clear to me that you don't want to give your explanations, you answered posts for 1 hour and 45 minutes.

General note, and this is to all players, not just you:
NEVER accuse a player of lying about real life. (You never know when you might one day have a player accuse YOU of lying about something you know is true and just imagine how that'll make you feel if it does happen--and realize that's why you just fucking don't.)

Nobody lies about their real life.
So when I say I couldn't get my shit together (a very personal thing)...I mean I couldn't get my shit together.
Not a lie, not an exaggeration. Lying about real-life is unethical. It is frankly the most sack-of-shit thing a person is technically allowed to do.
To be blunt I'd rather abuse my role as the IC, I'd rather lie about game theory, than I would lie about real life. And I consider those things sacred! That's just to give you an idea of just how fucking much I mean it when I say:

don't. do. this

. Ever.
Real life is sacred to mafia players. You don't lie about real life, and in return you also don't

accuse

people of lying about real life.

In this case: I want to give the explanations, I just am having difficulty doing so.
The answering of posts is actually a minimum time requirement--it is me barely coasting by. It takes me that long just to fucking coast by. To actually give the game the content it deserves requires me to invest the two hours you mention PLUS the 3+ hours or so for the project. The reason I need to answer posts is also self-evident enough: if I worked on the explanation at the expense of being caught up on the thread, I would fall behind and be unable to be up-to-date on the gamestate, something which I consider crucial to the role of a player.

My first priority is staying up to date with the game.
My second priority is the explanation I have promised--it takes a back seat to maintaining my first priority.

[mastina]

I think I understand it, but don't think you're accomplishing the separation as well as you think you are.

These two can't work together because inherent in my statement is that is is basically impossible for me to NOT have them separated.

It is possible for my teaching to overlap with my play. This has transpired--but there is nothing wrong with this, as it is to be expected and is the norm. ICs have their lessons overlap with their play all the time.

It is impossible for my teaching to overlap with my alignment. They remain separated at all times, because while my teaching may hold an overlap with my play, said play could come from either alignment and is rather explicitly equally helpful to both.

I think it must be hard, being an IC with the approach you take, and being scum at the same time.

Actually, this is a bit of a tangent, but the main dilemma as a scum IC for me isn't in role separation. It's in how to best achieve victory.
As a scum IC, I would be well within my rights to post IIoA: to do nothing but teach, ignoring play altogether. This coasting would be a valid strategy, because lurking is a valid scum tactic, and it can and does work. It's an easy way to win, because it's not something easy to be called out on.

The question would be whether that approach would be ethical, because while that is an

effective

method of winning...it is also a cheap one. It is a method which does not teach newbies good scum ploys. It does not teach newbies good scum tactics. It does not teach newbies good scum play. It is also dangerously close to abusing the role of an IC--while everything I would say would in fact be true, if I wasn't the IC then it probably wouldn't be possible to coast on nothing but coaching.

If you were town, you'd be less conflicted about your role differentiation, IMO.

There is no conflict. Maybe some players have been trying to sell that narrative, but I have been rather explicit in there being none. Regardless of my alignment, my teaching will overlap with my play--this is literally unavoidable. However, in spite of there being overlap, specifically because it exists regardless of my alignment...my alignment is inherently SEPARATED from my teaching. As a result? There is a clearly defined difference between my role as a teacher and my role as a player.

[mastina]

But by not sharing, by holding off this long, you're not helping town.

Yes I have acknowledged as much and apologized for the delay--the optimal time to have shared was about two/three days ago. I will try to get the reasons out tonight, once I have caught up.

[mastina]

@mastina Are you going to address this?

I did. This WAS my response:

Spoiler: This long post

You picked up on the largest bit, but to expand: there's more to it than that. For that bit, for instance--are you familiar with the concept of projection? Most people use the word in a negative connotation. I actually embrace and readily use the terminology because I project, sort of.

If you have time to give feedback before I go serious, you can try to guess what I mean specifically by that point. Because I intend to go serious soon, I'll also highlight the parts that are relevant you missed:

while I'm a good teacher, I do my best teaching when I'm not expected to teach. But as your IC, I...am expected to teach, so I must apologize in advance if I fail to deliver the teaching experience you need to grow your game. Give you the resources you need, even if it's just "listen to what this other person said". (Teaching tends to be a group exercise: everyone involved learns, from the moderator to the IC to the SEs to every other player.)

(Okay ^this paragraph's not too important but it's still part.)

I am a player. I could be town or scum, but I'll have a wincon/agenda this game, where I'm aiming for a win. However, I will never lie to you about game theory. Ever. I won't misdirect/mislead you. I won't place my alignment above my teaching duty. That said, game theory is, largely...highly subjective. Just because I won't lie to you about it doesn't mean what I say about it is, necessarily, "true". Use your judgment given time and experience to determine what advice I give you is helpful or not.
I am human, and prone to error. Burden of Proficiency is still a fallacy. Regardless of my alignment, I can and will make mistakes.

My teaching style in a game is, largely, "roll with the game": I will teach by example and give thoughts as they come up.

In short, my job isn't to teach you to play, so much as it is to guide you on your natural path.

All of these are relevant at least to THIS game.

My view on the game is balancing possibilities versus probabilities.
I'm an unorthodox player. I say my first language is "concepts", and my second language is English; my posts translate concepts to words. This has benefits where I see things others would miss, pressing people on the smallest/subtlest of details, but also carries three obvious downsides:
Inability to communicate properly, Verbosity, and sometimes being utterly wrong about my alternative ideas.

One quirk I have is viewing every player simultaneously as town and scum. I view each possibility, and then I weigh them, to determine probability. Which makes more sense?
As both alignments, I express generalities, expecting players to fill in specifics. Their interpretations not only allow them growth as players, but also allow me to get a better idea of their alignment(/how to manipulate them) off of how they respond. As town, I'll try to defuse heated debates I feel are counterproductive, but if I feel they could be useful, I'll let them continue and weigh in only when I feel it gives something useful. (Often, one leads to another.)
As scum, I'll direct the spotlight so that town are fighting town. I'll still give commentary on it, just like as town, but I won't try to defuse town-town debates, because I need town to lynch town. I prefer minimal involvement in contributing to town lynches, because it positions myself to look better/positions the town to mislynch twice in a row (namely, the primary town pusher of the now-flipped-town).

I like to flirt around a fair amount: just talk about random stuff that enters my mind, rambling about.
My expectation of this game is that every player is given the tools they need to continue their career here on mafiascum.net.

And so are these. You got the largest part, but there's a context to it you didn't get, and the bits immediately above the bits you got entirely change things. These are all the important parts.

I intend to explain this soon--very soon. I'm no longer waiting for a particular gamestate to happen, so much as I am a particular time in which I am physically capable of laying out my thoughts. (Explaining things in detail drains my very very very inconsiderable stamina. It's exhausting and takes a lot of effort for me to do--which is part of the answer by the way, and one of the things I even mention above!) So I'll try to get back to you on this ASAP with an actual laid-out process.

But. If you can beat me to it, I would encourage you to try. It might be a bit frustrating, but the guessing process is highly educational--I promise it is. You don't have to guess anymore (because I'm going to give you the answer as soon as I can), but all the same I still do encourage you to try if you can.

[mastina]

Framing the issue in this way is bad and you should feel bad (regardless of your alignment). You're basically saying "first smith said one thing, and then smith said another thing sometime later" without any consideration of the context and/or events that happened in between.
If you think my behavior here is scummy, you should have more to say than "look smith said something that kinda defended ulti and then three days later placed an seemingly empty-looking wagon vote on ulti, now please tell me why you think smith is scummy for it".

I don't recall any such framing.

All I did was ask a question of oldwino, in relation to you. Specifically, what he thought of you doing what you did, after HIM having SPECIFICALLY noting your earlier stance.

To put it another way: oldwino quoted 116 in regards to the Ulti wagon.
I asked him specifically about what he thought of 116, in conjunction with 281.
The question was directed towards him--and asking him about his stances. How he noted the Ulti wagon, noted your earlier thoughts on the wagon, and how you were later on the wagon.

[mastina]

Even beyond the first two points, even if you think that all I was doing there was defending myself (not accurate btw), why do you think that's scum-indicative?

That form of self-defense serves to be nothing more than self-preservation. It shows a lack of interest in finding scum and an interest in staying alive. You are not so selfish a town player as to place your survival above the needs of the town, and yet your attitude has shown this interest in your importance.

what exactly do you expect me to be doing there?

Living up to your title--your title's not just because you're a reviewer. It is also a reflection of your style as a town player: balanced. Reasonable. Yet this game, you are consistently displaying a tone which is frankly outright hostile to others. There's a lack of clear, strong, decisive logic, both in your posts and in your actions. You come across as angry. You come across as vain. You come across as looking down on others. You come across as argumentative. And yet in spite of all that bravado, you aren't displaying a strong interest in progressing the game forward. Your focus is, basically, in all the wrong places.

My expectation of you as town is that you would be giving hard thoughts--you would be noting the possibility of an alternative, but why you think things are a certain way. And then, given this perspective, you would be pushing others to follow you on this. You would not hold back. You would not be worried about yourself. If people scumread you, you would briefly engage them to tell them they are wrong...and you would, in the process, try to direct them to the players you personally think

are

scum.

Basically, there's a difference between consistently fencesitting and being balanced--your play this game has shown the former, whereas the latter is what I would consider town.
There's a difference between being hostile and giving hard thoughts--your play this game has shown the former, whereas the latter is what I would consider town.

And those are the two critical factors in play. There's a continued trend of deliberately being on the fence with no attempt to resolve it.
As town, when you are on the fence about something, you will do your damnedest to try and resolve that fence. You will be reasonable about it, but also conclusive.
Yet here, with you on the fence about literally fucking everything (I can point to your read on every player and why it is weak), you're doing nothing to try and strengthen any of those reads. You're happy, you're content, just leaving them as they have been. And that's why I think you are scum.

[mastina]

mhsmith0: seems a little nervous and worried how others perceive him

Basically, this is a HUGE fucking part of my problem with mhsmith. The amount of effort he has spent on trying to shut down reasons for him being a valid suspect FAR outweighs the amount of effort he has spent on trying to increase the strength of his reads--and that, my friends, is the fundamental divide at its most basic level between town and scum.

I WILL be bringing this up in my full explanation. (I intend for my full explanation to cover the whole game, so...I'm probably going to break it up into chunks of a few pages here and there, rather than all at once, but ideally I'll finish it all at the same time, just in separate posts.)

But really. Iso mhsmith.
See how much time he spends attacking me prior to my attacks on him.
See how much time he spends attacking me after my attacks on him.
See how much time he spends on Grey prior to Grey attacking him.
See how much time he spends on Grey after Grey attacked him.
See how much time he spends trying to follow through on his questions.
See how much time he spends trying to make something productive happen.
Then see how much time he spends instead shutting things down, which is the antithesis of productivity.