Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[mastina]

So I sorta came around on Mastina being town. That leaves me with a pretty hefty townblock.

Do tell.

[mastina]

So I sorta came around on Mastina being town. That leaves me with a pretty hefty townblock.

Do tell.

[mastina]

That may be the single worst "scumslip" argument I've ever seen.
VOTE: darklyn

This might be the single worst reaction to a "scumslip" argument I've ever seen!

[mastina]

What she's been doing has been super frustrating for me to deal with, but it's also had the fairly predictable result of making her a big center of attention, and not the positive kind.

Small tangent: I'd like to say my playstyle when I'm actually playing the fucking game isn't actually anti-town, I've just had one HELL of a bad week (no seriously don't ask me about that shit because if you do I WILL go into a very long rant about it that'd just be all-around unpleasant to deal with; the last seven days have SUCKED for me), which has prevented me from playing in the way I should be playing. My playstyle revolves around timing: strategic omission of key information, temporarily, and then later laying the cards on the table. All the while, I'll post things which continue to push where I want to, just holding back on the "juiciest", the "meaty" details and using more generic ones...until the time is right to spring my "trap", of sorts.

So keep that in mind when I say the following, in that I swear and give my word what I have done this game is NOT me intentionally trying this, just...having circumstances dictate that this is something which you could say applies to me. With that in mind, I'd like to take some time to point out that being the center of attention is not inherently a bad thing--in fact, it is often a key part in two-thirds of the "town trifecta" (the triangle, triple-threat, and other similar names as I call them): being obvtown, and being charismatic.

Sometimes, by being in the spotlight, you can use the opportunity to display things you want displayed. If everyone's eyes are on you, if everyone is paying attention to what you are doing, it can be

much

easier for the entire town to get a townread on your slot, and if someone disagrees, they'll quickly and justifiably be called out on their bad reasoning for disagreeing. Furthermore, by being in the spotlight, you can use the time, the chance, the opportunity, to push your own perspective, to give your thoughts, and allow others to see them in clearer detail than any other time--from this, you can sway people's minds such that they follow you.

So by virtue of this: being in the spotlight is not inherently a bad thing. It IS, however...something I would very much not recommend intentionally trying to do, at least...not like it has happened to me in this game. The spotlight on me in this game was accidental, and the spotlight on me in this game is not as good as it would be if this were being in the spotlight done right. HOWEVER, this is good knowledge to have when it

does

come to being in the spotlight and I do thoroughly recommend not freaking out if you enter it.

Heck, mhsmith's a master of this! For all his talk of ME being in the spotlight, he sure has plenty on him, himself, and regardless of his alignment, he's shown a fair deal of exactly how it can be handled positively. (I happen to think he is scum in the spotlight rather than town.)

I just really struggle to see someone who's IC'ing try THAT kind of stunt intentionally.

Intentionally, never. I will never advocate bad play. Maybe play which is unorthodox. Maybe play which there is no immediate town gain from. Maybe play which is seemingly anti-town yet which serves a much more obvious, deeper pro-town purpose. Maybe taking advantage and making the best of a bad situation. Those? Yeah, those I will not only preach but also do myself.

Accidentally, though...

or that she believes as an IC, that it's correct to put more energy into teaching (including the "figure it out yourselves guys" attitude) than playing, and that kind of attitude is much more natural as a town IC (if I get lynched, there are still two mislynches to go, and maybe my lynch becomes useful) than a scum IC (if I'm mislynched, we're kind of screwed).

The proper attitude as an IC is to put an equal amount of effort into both, with a focus on playing--my "figure it out yourselves" attitude, while VERY helpful for teaching, is not inherent to ICing. That's just me in general. That's how I play, because I have trouble explaining things and prefer to do so only when absolutely necessary. (There's a reason for the longest time, not explaining things was a mild towntell and explaining things was a major scumtell for me. I fixed that habit, but it existed for literally YEARS.)

Who would reasonably fit as her buddy?

The few times I feel like defending myself, this is usually one of my largest selling points--yet I'm actually calling bullshit on this one. Grey fits as a scumbuddy for me. So does Darklynn. Admittedly RC/DogWatch/oldwino/Ulti's slot all have good reason to not be a scumbuddy. But there are very viable scumteams with me on them. That, not even going into circumstances, such as RC backing off (RC doing early distancing then going away is perfectly natural for him as scum), or Ulti not actually casting a successful vote on my slot, either/both of which would expand the number of viable scumbuddies even further.

[mastina]

Cba to wait for intent, worried oldwino might quickhammer
claiming Tracker

Realistically, this narrows down the lynch pool to:
mhsmith
DogWatch
oldwino
lemonater

...Because Icy is town, Darklyn is town, I am town, Grey is probably town and nobody wants to lynch him as far as I know, and RC is still likely town and I don't think there's momentum to lynch him.

My preference is still mhsmith, though I will compromise on any of the above four if push comes to shove.

[mastina]

If he's scummy and wants you gone, why wouldn't he simply unvote you and shoot you tonight since he knows you can't be protected?

^This is valid, especially in newbie psychology I believe. It takes a special kind of veteran to LYNCH a power role claim without CCing. By which, I mean, a gutsy player who is confident they can do so without consequence, without it backfiring on them.

I do not hold that opinion of lemonator, so I am more inclined to believe lemonator is town.

Which would further narrow down my lynch pool to, again:
mhsmith
DogWatch
oldwino.

I really think scum are in here and we should lynch within here.

[mastina]

Ok, so unless something changes from Mastina, Darklyn is cleared. In that case I would like to see todays lynch come from his train.
RC
Lemon
Smith
Grey

The only name in there I would lynch is mhsmith. I don't think lemonator plays this way as scum. I don't think RC is scum. I'm pretty damn confident Grey isn't scum.

[mastina]

Grey, the only way that pushing the BP claim at this juncture makes even the slightest bit of sense is if you're claiming jailkeeper (in which case he MIGHT be lying) or cop (in which case you probably should have claimed a while ago, and certainly should have CC'd the tracker claim since you'd have both scum outed at this point). You disliking his push on you is a terrible reason to vote someone who's essentially a mechanical clear, and I feel like you'd know this if you were town. What gives?

This is also a bad post because it should be obvious to any veteran (and maybe even a newbie) EXACTLY what Grey is doing. I'd explain now, but there's the chance I'd ruin what Grey is going for by doing so, so.

[Icy]

I think he has been helpful thus far to town

Define "helpful to the town". Define also why helpful to the town translates to alignment. Define ALSO which posts give the above two definitions.

Are you really more interested in improving my game than you are in sorting out players?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Rather the opposite, they are mutually inclusive. Though I wasn't asking this as a teacher at all. It's nice and good and all that you think I was looking for a lesson--but I wasn't. I was demanding as a player that you be held accountable for your statements. Being confirmed town does not give you a pass to say whatever the fuck you want; you

are

still accountable for your content, and this is me explicitly calling you out on yours.

Maybe a confirmed townee doesn't get a free pass, but I think it gives them a bunch of latitude to do and say thinks that they normally wouldn't. You want me to be accountable for my statements the same as I want you to be accountable for yours.

[mastina]

Mastina's V/LA hurt this game a lot.

And I am really really really frustrated at that because I fucking

know

that as the IC my role in a game is critical. I know that my V/LA is far from the only factor--another factor is so many veteran players with strong attitudes in the same game. That's in my experience always detrimental to the learning for newbies, as they have no clue what the fuck is going on.

...But my V/LA was definitely *a* factor. And it's incredibly disheartening to think of how much of it could be my fault because of what amounts to bad timing and shit happening in my real life which wasn't avoidable. One of the main reasons I didn't replace out because of my V/LA though is because I feel that having the IC replaced would hurt the gamestate even WORSE than having the IC be only temporarily incapacitated. But, all the same. While the incapacitation was only temporary...it happened at a game-critical time. Namely, close to deadline.

An active IC can make the game so much more easy to invest in.

[Icy]

You want the mafia to be engaged and trying to influence the lynch, because that is (generally) how you catch them. You want the town (ESPECIALLY non-clears) to be engaged and trying to influence the lynch, because that is (generally) how you find them.

Ironically enough, this is one of the reasons I scumread mhsmith. His lesson here IS accurate--but the thing is, he has been one of the players I have most strongly seen NOT influencing the lynch. (The other being oldwino.)

RC was trying to, earlygame at least.

Grey has been doing so throughout the game.

I have also been pushing pretty hard for a lynch in my own way. (My style mostly involves getting people to see scum through a combination of MY perspective and working with THEIR perspective and fusing the two which is why I focus so heavily on getting people to read my posts and form conclusions from them.)
Ulti's slot may not have--but Ulti's slot also hasn't given content and to influence or not influence the lynch you first have to have content/posts.
DogWatch and Darklyn I admit you could make a case either way for.

But mhsmith has one of the highest post counts this game...yet he has deliberately avoided trying to influence the lynch.
Similarly so for oldwino. While he's cast a vote, he's done everything in his power to avoid committing to the lynch.

I really don't see Greys bouncing his vote around as influencing the lynch. Is there something else I'm missing?

[mastina]

Maybe a confirmed townee doesn't get a free pass, but I think it gives them a bunch of latitude to do and say thinks that they normally wouldn't. You want me to be accountable for my statements the same as I want you to be accountable for yours.

Yes! And I am more than happy to provide explanations! Well, now I am anyway. The point of holding back passed a week ago. Me not giving proper explanations since then has been real-life suck rather than intentional, so literally ask away; I'd answer!

And I expect the same! So again. Define "helpful to the town". Define also why helpful to the town translates to alignment. Define ALSO which posts give the above two definitions.

[DogWatch]

When you say Smith hasn't been influencing the lynch, what exactly do you mean? I feel like it's something I subconsciously picked up on, but couldn't put into words.

[mastina]

I really don't see Greys bouncing his vote around as influencing the lynch. Is there something else I'm missing?

It is specifically

because

Grey has been bouncing his vote around--for some people, that could be argued as playstyle. But then you look at what the player was DOING moving their vote around like that. Grey's approach was basically slinging mud at a wall and trying to see what would stick--he pressured RC hard. When he determined RC wasn't as likely to be scum, he move elsewhere. I'm too lazy right now (also it's 6 AM) to look up the names but this is repeated throughout the game with wherever he goes, laced with heavy doses of sarcasm and for lack of a better word, satire. That's town. He's scumhunting, not doing nothing.

[mastina]

When you say Smith hasn't been influencing the lynch, what exactly do you mean? I feel like it's something I subconsciously picked up on, but couldn't put into words.

I'm going to bed now, but I'll be back up hopefully with enough time to make a post in the afternoon tomorrow. (If not, then it'd be after tae kwon do tomorrow which means circa 8 PM PST, which is before the deadline but closer than I would prefer.) I feel like I wouldn't be able to explain this properly in my current (rapidly degenerating thanks to me getting tired) state of mind. Basically, he votes but doesn't do anything with the vote; there's a disconnect between his vote and his voice. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's subtle (like the timing of his Darklyn vote being off), but this doesn't do the concept justice so I'll explain more tomorrow.

[Icy]

Grey, the only way that pushing the BP claim at this juncture makes even the slightest bit of sense is if you're claiming jailkeeper (in which case he MIGHT be lying) or cop (in which case you probably should have claimed a while ago, and certainly should have CC'd the tracker claim since you'd have both scum outed at this point). You disliking his push on you is a terrible reason to vote someone who's essentially a mechanical clear, and I feel like you'd know this if you were town. What gives?

This is also a bad post because it should be obvious to any veteran (and maybe even a newbie) EXACTLY what Grey is doing. I'd explain now, but there's the chance I'd ruin what Grey is going for by doing so, so.

Really.....then I guess you missed the post

right after

where Grey claims to not know the slot claimed BP.

[DogWatch]

mhsmith
DogWatch
oldwino.

I really think scum are in here and we should lynch within here.

If I had to put money on it, my gut says it's a smith/wino team. I ISO'd smith and ctrl-F'd "oldwino" and many of their interactions feel like a mama bear/baby relationship to me. Smith never pokes too hard at wino, and on a few occasions early on, he seems to subtly deflect attention from wino, reinforcing the posts where other players make town reads of wino. It's just a general vibe I got, hard to explain. I'm sure smith will come along shortly to call me crazy and unreasonable.

So I know I'm going out on a limb here, and I could very well be wrong, but with ~20 hours for us to make a lynch and no real wagon at the moment, I would invite all to lynch either smith or wino. We do need a lynch today.

[Icy]

Maybe a confirmed townee doesn't get a free pass, but I think it gives them a bunch of latitude to do and say thinks that they normally wouldn't. You want me to be accountable for my statements the same as I want you to be accountable for yours.

Yes! And I am more than happy to provide explanations! Well, now I am anyway. The point of holding back passed a week ago. Me not giving proper explanations since then has been real-life suck rather than intentional, so literally ask away; I'd answer!

And I expect the same! So again. Define "helpful to the town". Define also why helpful to the town translates to alignment. Define ALSO which posts give the above two definitions.

Helpful to town: Entering into a disagreement with another player and after the fact coming out and saying "i think they are town"
Not jumping on trains.
Not posting to look active
Personally I think vote jumping looks opportunistic

Scum want to look helpful to town, maybe more so than townees, so it doesn't translate to alignment.

Personally I think Smith has done more to help you, than hurt. While you have been coming after him, he has pretty much set back and defended you.

Town Helpful

You pointed out Smiths vote on Dark, I didn't like the vote either, yet you seem fine with the fact that Grey followed Smith.

Not Town Helpful

[Icy]

Smiths going to have to "shot himself in the foot " for me to vote there today

[oldwino]

I started this post an hour or more ago, write, edit, write, edit, and just saw Dog's post implicating me as scum with Smith defending me as my papa bear. So, I will post what I wrote before Dog's post, and pick up my more complete analysis of everyone after this has been posted.

(What I wrote in draft but had not posted yet, before Dog's post) -

OK, given Mastina's RLI's, and NOT because she thinks I am scum and I'm trying to appease her - I know enough to know that wouldn't work - in fact this post might make me look scummier than she already perceives me to be but that's a risk I have to take to move the game along and tell everyone what I really think. Naive or not, dangerous to myself or not, I'm unvoting her.

UNVOTE: Mastina

If she were scum, I think she'd handle her play during her RLI's differently. Because there are only 2 scum, and the importance of their play (or strategic quietude), I think she would have subbed out. She's giving real reasons for her quietude. As town, she can afford to take some time off and not hurt town too much. As scum, her absence would be more harmful to her wincon.

So who does that leave?
Me, in her mind, but I think that's because she thinks I'm posting but not really scum hunting. I have been scum hunting, believing she is scum until she gave her recent explanation (severe RLI) so I hadn't changed my vote. I've been hoping others would see my POV on her and start a wagon. And I've been trying to figure out who her scum buddy is by reading others' reactions to her posts, or lack thereof. No one comes to the forefront, another reason I'm now thinking she's really town. No one is defending her or setting her up to look townie.

Smith - I realize scum can be and are often helpful to newbies, and try to appear helpful to experienced players, but in some ways I think Smith has more helpful than necessary if he were scum. Or, maybe, because he is such a good player he is scum and can appear to be 'too helpful' to newbies and to town and get away with it. But I also think being helpful is his gamestyle, town or scum. His 'overhelpfulness' still makes me lean townish on him, because if he were scum I don't think he'd be quite so helpful. Yes, I'm fence sitting on Smith so I'm still null on him.

The above is what I drafted before Dog's post. More soon.

[Icy]

shoot himself

[oldwino]

Addendum to my above post in reaction to Dog's post AFTER I read Dog's post thinking Smith and I are scum buddies.

Yes, I noticed Smith (and Grey, I think but I'll have to ISO him again) has been defending me, maybe moreso than necessary, and that made me suspicious of him because in my last (and first) game, an experienced scum played defended, played papa bear, to a newbie town to make himself (the experienced scum) look town-newbie helpful. Saw some of the same behavior from Smith towards me - but discounted it because I thought his defense of me was reasonable - he was defending my behavior that was town, but perceived to be scummy by Mastina. My justified fence sitting when I wasn't sure of someone, noticing their scummy and townie behaviors. My sticking to my guns re: my read on Mastina despite not much support from anyone else. So I thought Smith's (and maybe Grey's, if I am right about him defending me too) was well justified because Mastina's attack on me was NOT justified. So I'm still null on Smith, btw. And I'm wondering now about Dog's quick switch to suspect me as scum - maybe a defense of herself since we're both on Mastina's scummy list. But I haven't ISO's Dog yet, so not judging her yet. My quick response is that her suspicion of me is justified in her mind. And I think if she were scum, she'd have attacked me sooner in the game, not waiting for Mastina to narrow down her list. But maybe she's being opportunistic. I have to ISO her first to make a stronger call. Working on that but it may take a little while.

[oldwino]

Want to confirm
UNVOTE: Mastina
because it was in my italicized post above and not sure the mod would count it.

[oldwino]

Picking up with my analysis of 'everyone.'

Before Dog's post and my taking time to react, I was ISOing Lemo/Pieg/Ulti.

Originally I suspected Ulti because he wasn't posting and then voted Mastina to L1 without reason and without noting it was L1.
Then I thought he and Mastina were scum buddies, with his vote on her a distraction (since he did it incorrectly and it was never counted). But this clearly could have been newbie ignorance. I checked and Ulti dropped out of his next newbie game too. So I ended up null on Ulti.

Then Ulti opted out and Pieg came to play.
Pieg was obviously experienced, likes coaching, but I think got bored and left with the reason of 'making room for a true newbie." Overall, I think Pieg asked scum hunting questions, although he was not really active or invested in this game. If he were scum, I think the game would have been more interesting and he would have stuck around (is asking to replace out AI???). So, I was null leaning town on Pieg.

Lemon, I think, is asking good questions and invested in the game, although not as active as I would like. Not too much to go on. Active enough today not to be just lurking. So null to leaning town.

So, for me, the slot is null leaning town. But not leaning town by much.

[oldwino]

What do I think of RC?
At first, I leaned town. He shared his 'must claim or not claim BP' strategy, but would have done that even if scum or it would have been a scum tell. Promised more logic later, but then Smith cited the game and theory where RC fully explained that so RC didn't come back to it (something Smith didn't have to do if he were scum - so another mark for me on the smithtown checklist). Then RC aligned himself with me thinking Mastina was scum (but never voted her, I think) so I felt very townie toward RC. Then RC mostly disappeared so I got suspicious, then came back and explained RLI. I was suspicious of all of his one-liners, so ISO'd him in another newbie game when he was town and found the same thing. I can see RC being bored here, playing elsewhere, and just hanging around enough to stay alive.

But I haven't seen any strong scum hunting. And now his aligning with me thinking Mastina was scum is suspicious, assuming Mastina is town. But RC backed off of Mastina a while back. So, now I'm null leaning town on RC. More fence sitting on my part. Can't help it. I felt really strongly about my two scum picks in my first game and was wrong about both. I'm gun shy, but want to stay involved, play, and stir things up,m try to get people to slip or show illogical conclusions. We have to lynch someone and finding the two scum is HARD. But right now I don't feel strongly about RC either way. Probably town, just not too interested in this specific game.