[Game Over] Newbie 1784 - Escape Room

[Pine]

Greetings, friends! I will be your IC (Inexperienced Challenged) player this game. My name is Pine, and it is my job to do my best to help teach you how this game is played on mafiascum.net. I will attempt to do so with the companionable assistance of our SEs (Semi-Experienced players), XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

The very first thing you should know is that the way the game is played here is quite a bit different than it is played in most other places. Mafiascum's methodology relies on a great deal of theorycraft and deduction, supported by a broad and varied set of established patterns and assumptions, collectively referred to as "site meta," which gradually shifts and adapts to changing expectations of behavior.

The first stage of a mafiascum.net game is the Random Voting Stage, a.k.a. RVS. In this stage, we vote for one another without conviction, usually for humorous or sarcastic reasons. The point here is for Town to try and determine who is genuine, and who is nervous and forced. The theory, of course, is that the scum players are not actually in the dark, and must fabricate a reason for an RVS vote. This gives us an effective icebreaker, and a means to begin play.

A warning - quickly running a player up to the point of actual lynch during RVS is generally frowned upon, as Town has very little information at this point. Lynching a player at this stage is generally regarded as cause for great suspicion, particularly directed at the person who "hammers," or casts the final vote to seal someone's fate. That said, do not withhold your vote if you feel strongly or have conviction that it is in the right place, just be prepared to explain yourself.

A few additional resources:

• Beginners Guide to Mafia and Various Mafia Role Descriptions, a Flash presentation by Mike "Burnfire" Grevengoed.
  HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!
  
  Game Theory (See also: Theory in the wiki).
  HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!
  
  General Queue Information
  Forum Rules and Guidelines

Be aware that these guides are, generally, of limited use. They should be regarded as a starting point, a foundation upon which your understanding of site meta can begin. That is also the purpose of these Newbie games, after all. The SEs and I will do our best to fill in the human element, based on our experience with this site in general. When you feel you are ready, I encourage you to sign up for standard games, particularly in the Open, Micro, or Mini Normal subforums. Open games have an announced setup. Micro games have nine or fewer players, and may overlap with the Open style. Mini Normal games have between 10 and 13 players (almost always 13), and conform to a highly structured set of Normal rules and guidelines as to what roles and modes are permitted. I do not recommend in engaging in Theme or Large games until you have completed one of these simpler games, due to the greater complexity in Theme and Large games.

Good luck!

[Pine]

It bears making a second post to address how I function as an IC. While I am still a player, and will be playing to win, anything you see in one of these boxes is said from my perspective as an IC. As such, I will be attempting complete impartiality and honesty when I use the area tag. I

will not

use this tag to manipulate or deceive you, as that would construe a gross violation of my responsibility as a teacher and mentor. I will instead be using it to discuss game theory, use of the mafiascum website, various accepted tactics, and site meta. Anything you see in this box you can trust comes from the person behind the player, rather than a possible opponent. My goal is to see this site thrive and grow, and educated newbies are critical to that goal.

[Pine]

The BP-claiming strategy came out of a discussion we had in the dead thread for Newbie 1772, I think, which I will look up later. While I was part of the discussion that founded the idea, I have not fully groked the implications and will need to review it.

However, as

I am not myself a Bulletproof Townie

, I have no qualms about confirming it.

VOTE: nancy

Hi nancy!

PEdit: Only if you are bae.

[Pine]

I decided to look this up now instead of later. While we had been discussing setup throughout the thread, this linked post is where I bring up the subject of a Day 1 BP claim strategy. The entire thread is actually a good read, and somewhat short at 7 pages, as nancy and I discuss a good deal of general and specific strategies.

(I agree, nanhai, we should def bus each other)

"Bussing" is shorthand for "Throwing someone under the bus," a common strategy adopted by scumteams. The premise is that if you bus your partner by trying to get them lynched, then you either put enough distance between you so that no one suspects you are a team, or if you successfully lynch your buddy, you are regarded as a least-likely suspect. As you may imagine, the popularity of this strategy leads to it backfiring quite often, and I am on the record in many, many places as being vocally anti-bussing. If you'd like to discuss this further, I can get into the theory of it.

[Pine]

nancy and I are, of course, joking. Not only would I genuinely not want to bus her, but such joking around between friends is fairly common in the RVS stage. While I am by no means certain of her alignment, this exchange actually makes me think she's

probably

Town

I'll catch up with the thread and look at early reads after making dinner. Spaghetti and from-scratch meatballs!

[Pine]

Oh no!! That's.. my second newbie game! *hides*

That game is actually where Pine taught me not to tunnel. Very quality lesson that I suggest everyone heed.

Everyone tunnels. Even experienced players, sometimes especially us. Many of the older players around here have sufficient history with one another that we're bringing old grudges, friendships, wishful thinking, perceptions of meta, and larger psychological chess matches into new games. In some ways, the peril of tunneling* is even greater for older players, because we can be set in our ways. The true lesson there was how to recognize when you are tunneling, especially when your tunnel is being taken advantage of by scum, and how to pull yourself out of a spiral.

*"Tunneling" is a shorthand reference to the notion of gettting "tunnel vision," where you can only see your target. Frequently, when a player becomes absolutely sure of a read, they drill down and focus on it to the exclusion of all else, missing vital clues in the periphery. This is closely linked with the phenomenon of confirmation bias (confbias), another psychological hazard, where you are so sure of something that you subconsciously interpret any new evidence as supporting your present position, regardless of objective fact. Tunneling can lead to confbias, and confbias can lead one to tunnel.

Red sauce is simmering. I take store-bought jars of sauce and add ingredients to them until the flavor is entirely changed. This time, I added sauteed onion, garlic, thyme, hand-crushed rosemary, oregano, and Parmesan cheese to it, among other things I'm likely forgetting. I don't have an open bottle of red wine (I'm a riesling fellow) so I'm giving that a pass tonight.

[Pine]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure scum are trying to ramp up the nancy bandwagon for a quick kill so they can sit back and go "oopsie!"

Getting a vibe that at least one scum is on nancy right now, maybe both.

[Pine]

I do not like this strat at all, I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play and I refuse to claim either way.

Refusing to claim even though it's a pro-town strat?

Well. I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I mean hell, I suggested it and I'm not sold on it being absolutely the right thing to do. Refusing to participate in a widely-accepted pro-Town practice is only scummy if it is widely accepted; this is not.

[Pine]

VOTE: StealthyNoodle

Trumping up the charges against nancy and gross exaggeration are pretty classic scum tactics.

[Pine]

Pine replaces Pine, if MDS will still have me. Refraining from catching up until she gives me the go-ahead to stay.

[Pine]

Hi all! Thank you mod for cutting me some slack, I've largely been absent from the site for several days due to real life issues. I'm catching up right now.

[Pine]

Okay, prepare for a wallpost some time in the next hour or so. I fell asleep last night while reading and then had to rush off to work.

[Pine]

Hush. I'm working on it.

[Pine]

I would like to take this opportunity to step back and apologize, as your IC, for my absence of the last few days. My job is supposed to be to walk new players through the game and be a consistent and companionable resource, and I have been failing in that capacity. I've had a rough couple of days, and have largely been absent from MafiaScum. I've sorted my shit out and am committed to serving with distinction. What follows is my catch-up from page one, my impressions and reads as a player.

Note: The following is stream-of-consciousness as I read, so expect things to change as I go.

Page 1

-Post 17 (and subsequent posts) leads me to think nancy is Town. This isn't based on standard tactics or anything, it's largely based on my relationship with nancy. I have a sense that she tends to play a bit fast and loose when she's Town, especially in the early game. A first-post scumclaim-in-jest isn't something I see her doing as scum. Subsequent shenanigans over the next few pages suggests she's trying to feel out who's going to be too eager to jump on her, feeling out who's going to take the bait. That strikes me as genuine scumhunting.
-WhyMafia jumping on Chronicle for being vote 2 on Stealthy instead of LoopDan for being the third vote strikes me as odd and disingenuous, and if this weren't a Newbie game I'd be all over that. We'll see how it plays out.
-WhyMafia then jumping onto nancy looks like scum falling into her trap. Definitely putting a pin in that.

Page 2

-Not much to observe here, nancy continues to come off as Town.

Page 3

-Pine enters, nancy interaction is pretty obvTown.

Page 4

-Stealthy's entrance looks like newScum. Praises TesXX and LoopDan for empty reasons, votes nancy as the most dynamic player present. Does not support BP-claiming strategy, agrees with nancy, but does it anyway? Then flips around and says she's not supporting a pro-Town agenda? Naaaahhh. Also as noted in Post 90, exaggerating charges against nancy.
-WhyMafia continues to make moves that come off as opportunistic, specifically moving against LoopDan for a page 1 RVS vote. Hesitating a little on my scumread though, not sure even newScum would do this.

Page 5

-A little concerned about LoopDan's push against non-claimers in the BP strategy. Citing prior results does not guarantee future success. This looks like a fallacy of some kind. Also not a fan of his dig at nancy about her statement about teaching>wincon (though I superficially agree with him, the best way to teach is to stick to wincon). As a player new to SE-status, nancy is allowed to be wrong about meta.

@nancy: Per your statement in 122, please claim either "Not BP" or "BP". While I will be interested in moderating a post-game discussion on the strategy in MD, for now it is the order of the day. Suffice to say that, if you are BP, there is no real downside to claiming it. If you aren't, there still isn't a downside. That was the whole basis of the proposal, that there was no downside for Town, and it limits scum fakeclaiming options.

Page 6

-Conversation veers into theory at this point, so some general observations: Chronicle strikes me as classic newTown, trying to figure stuff out but not really knowing how. TesXX has been focusing almost exclusively on theory and strategy discussion, with a surprising dearth of real content. Suspicions at this point include StealtyNoodle, WhyMafia, TesXX, maybe LoopDan. TRs (Town reads) include nancy and Chronicle. Still need sorting on Srceenplay and bjc/CogMachine.

Page 7

-nancy's push against TesXX at the bottom of 6/top of 7 doesn't make any damn sense. However, what's much more incisive is TesXX's reaction to it. His reaction to strong suspicion screams "I am scum frustrated at being caught for the wrong reasons." This is a classic tell, but is sometimes hard to distinguish from "Town suspected for bad reasons." This one definitely strikes me as the former. Post 167 in particular raises a red flag.
-Ha, I knew I was right on Chronicle. 168 is the Towniest of Townposts. Objective-driven, shows evidence of doing research, saltiness directed at people who aren't helping accomplish wincon. Chronicle's a hard TR now.

Page 8

-Getting cold feet on my WhyMafia SR now. Meandering uncertainty looks more like newTown than newScum. Some of his reads in 194 are hard to push, where I see newScum going for easier targets.
-Much of this page was devoted to discussion of lurker theory, so I'm going to slip into IC Mode...

Lurking is a highly-debated subject. It is also one of the areas where site meta tends to change pretty regularly. There is pretty much always a good deal of antipathy directed towards lurkers, as it is an effective strategy for avoiding notice or attention. However, site meta often shifts towards a "Lynch the Lurkers" attitude, which makes it a double-edged sword. There is also the fact that Town lurk for legitimate reasons all the damn time, whether they are busy in real life, are having a hard time keeping up with a fast-paced game, or just don't have anything to say. My general advice is to not focus too much on lurking. While individual players develop personal meta trends that can make lurking indicative (two scummers I play with regularly come to mind) it is broadly NAI (non-alignment-indicative).

Page 9

-Interactions between StealthyNoodle and WhyMafia don't strike me as scum theatre, especially given lack of daytalk (I double-checked; post 3)

"Scum theatre" is a colloquialism to describe intentional distancing or argument between scumbuddies for the purpose of deceiving Town. This is usually coordinated with daytalk, but skilled scummers can coordinate it during the night to happen in the day.

-Just because someone is posting elsewhere doesn't mean they are intentionally ignoring the game. Playing multiple games at once is a significant time investment, and when one has limited time, one must often prioritize games they're caught up on. I was quite a few pages behind at this point.

Page 10

-Not a ton to say here, though the vultures circling over my absence are really obvious. StealthyNoodle, TesXX, and WhyMafia spend the whole page setting up pushes against me and her. Taking down a Town IC and dynamic SE would virtually guarantee a scum win. Not sure completely which two of the three is scum, but I'm pretty sure it's in that set of {Noodle, TesXX, WhyMafia}. Still, this is stream-of-consciousness, so it's possible that later events will suggest differently.

Page 11

-Noodle attacks on nancy continue to be trying to make something out of nothing. This strikes me strongly as someone trying to take down a threat.
-

I do not endorse Tracker-claiming

: The whole point of BP-claiming is that it limits scum fakeclaiming opportunities without a drawback for Town. Having a Tracker claim is BEGGING for scum to roleblock or kill a major investigative role. Heavy suspicion of TesXX for suggesting this.

Page 12

-LoopDan pagetop endorsement of Tes!Town and Noodle!Town just gobsmacks me. No.
-Noodle 279 "not sure about Tes" at this stage is another "wtf" moment. Tes has plenty of content out, a read should definitely be possible. Nothing at this stage looks like scumbuddies.
-Srceenplay 290 out of left field, strikes me as newTown, insufficient evidence for a strong read.

Page 13

-WhyMafia 303 strikes me as gamesolving. Asking incisive motivations-based questions of the hardest-to-sort active player.
-Tentatively agreeing with nancy 314, LoopDan looks like stubborn Town SE sticking to bad reads.
-CogMachine catchup post shouts newTown. TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny). I'd object to the srceenplay SR, but the guy has less content than I do and he's actually been posting consistently. Pressure is good.

Page 14

-Noodle continues being scummy. Cog continues to exhibit gamesolving traits. I'm liking his push on Srceenplay, it vibes genuine.
-Noodle's 349 readslist in particular seems...opportunistic is the wrong word? Advantageous, convenient? He's looking to get rid of threats, keep allies, and butter up people not SRing him. Readslist seems calibrated to support this objective.

Page 15

-Noodle yet again, 368, throwing absolutely everything against the wall to see what sticks. Going after nancy for VT-claiming is particularly egregious. Fabricating NAI stuff into a scumread is not a Town tactic.

Page 16

-WhyMafia's saltiness in 376 is Towny. @WhyMafia - Still give reasons, even if it's scum asking. Openness is

always

usually

sometimes

in this case good, and scum aren't the only one who will read your reasoning.
-386 is goodposting

OKAY! Finally down. Very sorry this took so long. I'm going to stay current from here out.

[Pine]

Damn, that's a long wallpost, even for me. I believe I addressed most or all questions directed at me so far, please resubmit them if I missed one.

[Pine]

@srceenplay
If you could protect one person who would it be
If you could kill someone who would it be (daykill)

This one? A couple of things.

1) Scum tend to hedge their bets with their reads. They like to have few TRs, few SRs, and lots of grey area that they can work with and be flexible/opportunistic. By pressing someone to commit to hard reads, WM is narrowing that grey area and putting the suspect off balance.
2) The choice of suspect is also kind of telling. WM didn't pick someone who was strongly present or someone who was absent, he picked someone who had thus far been difficult to sort. That strikes me as gamesolving.
3) This sort of question forces people to make connections and associatives, and can be very handy down the road.

Now, I don't think WM meant all of that, but the motives are probably Town. The quoted post more than anything else seems to vindicate my cold feet regarding early WM suspicion.

[Pine]

Not sure if I really agree on that Noodle read, I like noodle for town.

You're welcome to disagree, but I'd like to hear your Towncase on Noodle.

[Pine]

Granted, they could be scum trying to fabricate content, but the target and nature of the question makes me think they're at attempt at scumhunting.

[Pine]

^ Basically because if you think of that question from a scum!WM perspective, it maximizes info on where he might direct a NK. If we have a scumteam of 2 newbies, as it's looking like, then this kind of information is something scum!WM might be trying to gather in a kind of cutesey way.

But everyone has different reads on who is solid town? If everyone has different opinions, how would that help me?
Also, I used the question to at least try to scum hunt. I'm susp on screenplay (sorry for the autocorrect xd) for his answer to that question. He wanted to kill Pine of all people.

@Pine
I didn't intend for my questions to be like that, but I'll go with it!

I haven't played in too many games (this is my second to be precise), and I was just curious if after this game, someone experienced could pm or write in this thread some ways to look for scum. I'm just improving xd

Post-game discussions and analysis is pretty standard when you have a decent IC. I'll definitely be sticking around to chat. If we end up in the dead thread together, I am also happy to talk there. Ask nancy, we had quite a rousing learning session in the dead thread of 1772.

@pine
-CogMachine catchup post shouts newTown. TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny). I'd object to the srceenplay SR, but the guy has less content than I do and he's actually been posting consistently. Pressure is good.

Why didn't you vote me if pressure is good?
I mean I voted you and didn't even get a response from. First you ignore the game and now me!?

Couple of things.

-First, pressure IS good. Lynching scum is better. Hence my vote on Noodle.
-Second, it is my personal policy not to get too hot and bothered about votes on me. When I'm Town, it just tends to distract from scumhunting, and when I'm scum it helps me pretend I'm Town concerned about being distracted from scumhunting. Unless I'm about to be lynched, it just doesn't benefit me much to worry about it.
-Third, I haven't been ignoring you. I talked quite a bit about you in my wallpost. If you have a question, I'll answer it. If you just want me to acknowledge your vote, consider it done. I'm getting back to scumhunting now, mmkay?

[Pine]

Pine
Since you just read and caught up. Everything is fresh in your mind. Can we get a read list?

My reads were pretty plainly stated, but I can give you a TL;DR summary.

Hard Town

nancy
Chronicle

Probably Town

CogMachine

The Funky Middle

WhyMafia

Under Suspicion

Srceenplay
Loopdan

Solid Scumreads

TesXX
StealthyNoodle

[Pine]

I don't know if that means my reads are off, their reads are off, if one of them is scum and the other's reads are off, or if they are both scum.

That game is actually where Pine taught me not to tunnel. Very quality lesson that I suggest everyone heed.

Concidering they have some sort of senpai-kohai relationship, I find it likely that they support each other's theories no matter the reason.

Pine and nancy, obviously

First of all, I am wildly in favor of that image for nancy and I.

Second, why the hell would our personal relationship mean we support one another regardless of logic? That's not how this game is played. With nine players and two scum, odds of one of the two of us being scum is somewhere north of 40% (don't quote me on that number, my memory of how combinations and/or permutations work is fuzzy). It doesn't make sense to implicitly trust one another. What DOES make a lot of sense is to leverage our knowledge of one another to quickly sort the other and proceed accordingly.

I'll make a more comprehensive Towncase on nancy and scumcase on Noodle in the morning. I've only slept like four hours in the last two days.