Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[oldwino]

It's also very interesting that Oldwino is basing Mastinas alliance on Thinkbigs flip.

Icy - I don't know what you mean here. Please explain/elaborate.

[PenguinPower]

Vote Count 2.10

ThinkBig

(3): oldwino, Alisae, Dogwatch

mastina

(2): ChrisOrmie, Icy

Alisae

(2): mastina, ThinkBig

Dogwatch

(1): Blawb

Not Voting

:
With 8 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-03-31 13:00:00)

[oldwino]

They seem to be strong town reading each other, at least saying they do, with Mastina posting too much and TB not posting enough. I'm more confident TB (Grey) is scum, and at this point his flipping scum points toward Mastina as his scum buddy, but they've been so supportive of each other, I think that team is ???? If either flips town, it makes the other look town. I'm kind of at a loss about what any flip will tell us, getting pretty confused, so will have to go back and read interactions from D1. Will try to do that tomorrow.

Ok, now I think I understand Icy's post referring to my view of an alliance between Mastina and TB. What I said, or tried to say, is that these two, TB and Mastina, could well be scum buddies. Mastina has defended Grey/TB throughout the game when I find Grey/TB very scummy. So to me, that implicates Mastina. If TB flips scum, that reinforces, to me, Mastina as his scum buddy because she has been defending the slot all game. If TB flips down, that exonerates Mastina's on-going defense of him.

[Icy]

I believe TB is likely town, which is why I asked someone to please state the case against him.

[oldwino]

I really don't see a strong case on TB/Grey, can one or all of you state you case, please.

Here's my case as best as I can put it.

Grey seemed to post a lot without saying too much, feuding with different players, clouding the scum hunting by posting lots of posts, many of them empty and many of them long. Some of his feuding could have been bussing, but nevertheless, I didn't find it helpful as scum hunting. His more serious scum reads seemed to be Smith. Then he hung around at the end of D1 and hammered him. It appears as a mercy hammering, Smith knew someone would do it and kept asking just to get it over. Grey obliged, then hung around and talked with Smith and RC for a long time in twilight. I think Grey did this to appear regretful, but maybe not. Then he replaces out just after D2 breaks, whereas RC replaced out overnight. I still think it's possible RC and Grey were scum buddies and had a major disagreement over who to NK, Icy (shot 1 to her BP) or Dark, the tracker. You'd think experienced scum would NK Dark, but maybe one of the Grey/RC team wanted to play WIFOM. Or maybe they wanted to take their shot at Icy because she was suspicious of one of them while Dark was not and was pointing at others.

He also supported Mastina a lot, another of my very scummy reads, especially during D1. I don't see Grey and Mastina pressing each other at all, mostly just defending each other.

Grey also moved his vote a lot, maybe trying to get reactions but maybe to see what would stick. And he self-voted. And he seemed to almost dare us to suspect him of scum. Arrogance, yes his playstyle, but overly done I think, almost mocking us because we wouldn't dare suspect him.

I admit part, probably too much of my suspicions of Grey, were because of his playstyle. Kind of crude, inflammatory, getting into long feuds with several players. Maybe that is just his meta, but in this game, maybe he was using his playstyle to clutter the game and keep others from scum hunting.

Grey was often helpful to newbies, but IMO not overly so. Enough to make me think he was town, off and on. That's a good scum tactic to get allies and remove suspicion. Smith did that too, but IMO much moreso than needed to 'look good.' I think Grey did that, was helpful, just enough to avoid suspicion.

And, Grey is the one who pointed out Dog's townslip - a point in his towncred unless Dog is/was his scum partner. Not a popular POV, but still possible that he coached her during pregame.

Now TB comes along and doesn't do much of anything. Posts, but empty posts. Still defended by Mastina and while she claims he is posting good, scum hunting posts, I don't see any. And his slot is still defending her.

I'm not even 90% sure Grey/TB is scum, but I've been highly suspicious of the slot from early in the game and TB hasn't done anything to lessen that suspicion. His lack of meaningful posts seems like hiding to me.

And, I think having two strong wagons as we approach the end of D1 is a good idea. Let's see where players move, what they have to say. Then lynch one of the more likely suspects: Grey, Mastina, and Alisae/RC are my strongest scum leanings. And as I said earlier, the Grey/TB - Mastina alliance, her defending the slot without, from my POV, any strong reasons, is suspicious. As was Mastina's conviction of Smith, with both Grey's and RC's help.

@ Icy, who first asked about my case against Grey. I trust you obviously more than you trust me, since your conftown and I am not. I'll follow, sheep you, if need be later in the day, to Mastina or Alisae. Probably not anyone else unless someone cites really strong evidence.

FYI - I'll be online off and on today, during the day, but around 5 PM my time (Eastern Daylight), I have to go off line and may not get back before the lynch, so I'll cast my final vote late this afternoon. I might get back before 8 AM Wed, but can't be sure and it'll probably be all over by the time I get back in the morning.

[oldwino]

^ Sorry, I somehow got confused over the deadline. We still have a few days left. So I won't necessarily cast my final vote today.

[Icy]

Ok, thank you.
I agree with a bunch of what you have to say about Greys game. Can't say as I really remember Grey defending Mastina as much as you do. He actually seemed pretty quiet on that subject. I will however call your attention to this post.

I'd rather save the mastina/Smith dipole for d2, as choosing wrong will cost us a strong town.

It is clear to me that he believed one of those two were scum.


Now I took a fair amount of pokes at Grey on day one, but if you read back I think it is pretty clear to see where I stopped, and I never voted him. Grey voted me, and when questioned by Smith stated he didn't know I was BP, and dropped his vote. Towns job is to try to sort players into to groups, players you can trust and players you can't. Scum (because they already know who everyone is) really only have one job on day one,

FIND PRS

.

Therefore does it seem likely to you that scum Grey had no idea who the BP was?

[oldwino]

Good point that Grey, if scum, would have paid attention and known you were BP. He could have faked that, however. Smart scum move, act like you're not paying attention to the BP claim. But, like I said, I'm not totally convinced the slot is scum. Grey did some townie posts, and some of my scum lean is based on my dislike of his playstyle. If TB had come into the game with more scum hunting, instead of hiding (from my POV), I'd feel less like the slot is scum, but I think TB is hanging back because Grey drew so much heat and TB wanted to take the heat off, even when I was about the only one with a scum read on him and not believed by anyone else.

Is Mastina still your strongest scum read? If you've already laid it out, just refer me to the post. I'm most interested in lynching scum, not getting my own biasedscum lean lynched if he is town. My vote was on her most of D1 but I became more suspicious of Grey and RC at the end of that day, when Smith was lynched. But I just checked and she, Mastina, started what became the wagon on Smith. Then she was gone during and after the lynch, If she were scum, I think she'd really have to trust her scum buddy to secure the lynch, which means an experienced scum buddy hanging around at lynch time, either Grey (TB) or RC (Alisae). I think scum is two of these three, but for sure at least one of them is scum.

[ChrisOrmie]

Grey did some things that made me suspicious that he was scum, however there are more than a few posts that are highly town motivated from the slot too. It's either scum gambiting like mad, or town that wasn't paying attention to the game. I've not seen a lot of their games, but Ali was convinced the slot was scum, and TB's play is not improving my opinion one bit. I still see the slot as shady and wouldn't be opposed to seeing their flip, but Mastina is the one I am reluctant to let go of. I feel she's too good a player to give time to.

@oldwino I was townleaning on RC, and Ali's only improved the slot imo. Highly doubt that he's scum. I was worried it was confbias as I usually read RC as town (and just played with town-Ali where he was very similar to this game) but ISOs do nothing to make me suspect the slot.

VOTE: DogWatch

I went through DogWatch's ISO, and can say with confidence that he is more concerned looking townie than helping the town.

I get a similar feeling but didn't think it was AI, but do you think this is more indicative of scum than newbie - if so, why?

[Icy]

Yes. Mastina is still my strongest scum read.

No need to go over day 1 again, but on Day 2 Alisae entered the game post 892 to a slot Mastina and I were both town reading. Three hours later Mastina voted Alisae.936

Three....Hours....Into...Day....Two.

Not exactly giving him much time to get established, like she was willing to do with Thinkbig.

Enter Chris who attacks her and now Mastina says the scum team is Alisae and Chris, and there is no way in hell that is the scum team.

[Blawb]

Still staying on DogWatch, sorry guys. We all mostly agree that DW is scummy; the only argument here is that we might be mistaking scuminess for newb-ness. I don't like that argument, because I still think that DW's main focus is appearing town - more so than helping the town. Even newer players would have the tone of wanting to Lynch someone / help the town, but I'm really not seeing that in DW.

[mastina]

I NEVER SAID PRE-FLIP INTERACTIONS, I FUCKING SAID PRE-FLIP ASSOCIATIONS. THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!

Yes but you still used the term.

And I said that you should use them.
I use

caution

with them.
But inherent in that is USING them. Just, not placing absolute faith in them.

Except the very same post you quoted here also explains why I have read his points, why I liked his thought process, and why I still disagreed with him.

You apparently disagree with everything he said, then?

Again.

It doesn't add up.

If you like his thought process.
Then you're going to use some of it.
Yet you are discarding literally fucking everything he said.

I have explained in detail each one of my points, refuted yours, and called you out for your "content" and attempts to get town to follow a flawed plan which could easily be a trap to get scum a quick win.

Right, you've responded by dodging the heart of the problem, posting things which don't have a basis in reality, and called it an explanation.

You rate Mastina highly as a player, so why can she not twist her meta?

Actually, about that.
I

can

.
I am incredibly self-conscious about my meta. So much so, I even developed a flowchart. It's a bit long, and not something I was planning on posting, but because it's relevant I suppose I'll share it.

Here, for your reading pleasure, might as well quote this.

I think everyone should make one of these. Especially mastin.

Actually...I have.

I've been meaning to post it, too. It's about a year out of date, though, but I started compiling a way around Mafia with the Quickness 2 called, "How to read Mastin: the flowchart".

Spoiler: Stuff about it

The flowchart, while half a year old in its latest version, still applies more than it doesn't, by the way.
I'll condense it down for you, though:
If Mastin is scum, accept the loss; she's going to win regardless of what you do. So treat her like town.
If Mastin is town, then she is town. Treat her as town. If she wants to be listened to, listen to her and trust her instincts. If she doesn't tell you to listen to her, take her words with a grain of salt; they're reads but not solid ones.
BAM.
You now know how to treat Mastin.
Will work out for you nearly every single game.

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Though that does remind me, I need a point in there about focusing on scumhunting.

I find her posts coming from a mostly town point of view and she has a genuine interest in finding scum.

Right, that's another one I need to add in.

How To Read Mastin

:

Are you zMuffinman?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you AngryPidgeon?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.
No-->You REALLY need to go through the chart; proceed! But fair warning in advance that it's only about 90% accurate.

Is/Are zMuffinman/AP in the game?

Yes-->Sheep them on their read! Never doubt it.
No-->Think like them and continue on.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.
No-->Is it D2? Yes-->She's prob-town.
No-->Is it D3 or later? Yes-->Proceed.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed to next step.

Trust her as town.

What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.
Enthusiastically work with you-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Nothing-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

Suddenly pressure her.

What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.
Show concern, but subdued-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Brush it off-->Proceed.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Yes-->She's town.
Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?
Yes-->She's town.
Kinda?-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?
No-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does her posting look intentional?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

(BONUS:

If Mastin is behind, does she demonstrate knowledge of the

current

gamestate she could not reasonably have at her supposed point of reference?

No-->She's town.
It's hard to say...-->She probably does know, but not much, having likely skimmed offline, not logged in, and chose not to get the full context to spoiler her as probable-town.
Yes-->Proceed.)

And finally...

Is there minimal resistance to lynching her?

Yes-->She's town; defend her!
...Maybe?-->You've gotten this far and the best you've got is a "maybe"?!? You dummy, run through it again! (But she's probably town anyway.)-->All other factors equal, if you're having this much trouble reading Mastin, just freakin' assume she's town. (She likely is, anyway.)-->FOR THE LOVE OF GODS, SHE'S TOWN, DANG IT.
No-->She's probably scum...but you should run through the flowchart one more time just to be sure, as a precaution.

Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?
Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
No-->Proceed.)

(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.

(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)

Totally should just, in general, take this policy about me.
There's a flowchart that I plan to publish that will give better tells for reading me in general, some of which are timeless, others which are in contemporary site meta, but valuable all the same. Until it's actually published, though, the general policy I have on reading me is, increasingly, becoming:

Just assume I'm town until you have a REALLY solid reason not to. You'll be right the VAST majority of the time, by sheer probability alone.

(In fact, beyond probability. Probability says I should be scum a minimum of 25% of the time. 2014's been something like half that overall.)

It'll save you a BUNDLELOADS of headaches.

(Should be noted that my record was 34 games IN A ROW as town and my scumgame remains STILL below statistical probability in numbers.)

"If you're townreading Mastin, lynch her. She's scum, having successfully predicted your movements and is manipulating you. You fell into her trap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you're scumreading Mastin, she's town; save her from the lynch. She's probably either really onto something or really lost. In either case, she needs your help, either to sheep her or help her develop more accurate reads."

Some of them are out of date thanks to contextual meta shifts, but most of them still apply.

(Note of course that the flowchart is never 100% accurate. It's impossible, literally impossible, to display all of them in a single game since many of them are in fact slightly contradictory, but the point is to see as many as possible and if the majority matches town or scum. This chart has been in play for quite a while, now, and to this date, in spite of no active attempts to uphold it and some attempts as scum to subvert it, remains highly relevant to my play. It goes to prove my point, though: scuMastin always has this laser-like focus. Anything Goes in particular, until I faked having my confidence shattered, I was pushing for a specific lynch. In games like Resistance where I was the last living scum in lylo, I wove a narrative specific to one player being scum because I held focus. In my entire scumgame career, holding focus has done nothing but serve me well. Losing focus has done nothing but screw me over. Because guess what? People like focus. They like confidence. They love to see assurance in a read. They want to have a figure be charismatic and to follow. It's an inherent part of people's nature. That's why tunneling is so prevalent, because it works DAMN good and well to get a lynch. People hate doubt. When someone is calling everyone town/scum in rapid circles, AKA circlejerking, people think it's scum trying to mislynch anyone. They see desperation and attribute it to being scum. They don't see a town player desperately trying to figure out the game. They see a scum player that is trying to find options. So damn fucking straight. Maybe someday I'll flail as scum. It could in theory be this game. But in practice? Fuck no. As scum I'd push a lynch through; as town, here I am without a clue.)

(I really need to also add a section in there about explicitly blowing up.
I don't think I've ever thrown f-bombs around as scum freely, aside from some trolling in L4D when I literally claimed scum in-thread once I realized Molla had a guilty on me.
As town, you'll note, I go absolutely ballistic, and for damn fucking good reason. Lynching me has never done a town favors, ESPECIALLY not in the lategame.)

^That's how. ('Course, the flowchart was developed for single-ball games. I actually have no clue myself how well it does or doesn't hold up in multiball.)

(I just realized that an item not on the flowchart but which should be is how I explain my reads:
"Does she explain her reads in crystal clarity?
No-->Almost certainly town, though you can proceed as a precaution just in case.
...Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
Yes-->Proceed.")

Not included: "Is she doing anything?"
Yes-->Well, go read what she's doing, dummy!
No-->She's probably fighting a flake.

Doesn't tell you alignment, but is useful to have on there anyway.

I quote the flowchart to show how self-conscious I am about these things: so I

know

about them.

...The thing is. As scum, I have no incentive

to

change them. As scum, my game looks better than my towngame does, because I have a different viewpoint and can work from a different perspective. So as a result, I tend not to change my game, because the game I have developed

works

. And works REALLY well. I am not a great town player.

I am one of the best players on site as scum.
So it stands to reason, my scumgame is fairly static; my towngame is fairly chaotic. By which, I mean, my scumgame remains largely the same; my towngame tends to change every game.

some even set up their meta for months just to play their "town game" and win as scum.

IC note:

this is borderline against site rules as we have rules against trust tells and also rules stating you must play to your wincon--deliberately sabotaging one alignment for the sake of another violates those standards. Never ever do that. EVER.

If there is no town-motivation behind a post, it has to be from scum.

While I feel you're scum.
I just need to state that if you genuinely believe this.

You need to fundamentally rethink your approach of the game.
Because the vast majority of content is neither town-motivated nor scum-motivated.
In a given game, a good 70-80% of any players' posts are going to be identical or near-identical regardless of alignment. It's finding the 20-30% that is the main part of the game.

If someone looks like they have zero town motivation in any of their posts, it is a surefire sign they are town.
If someone looks like they have zero scum motivation in any of their posts, it isn't as surefire a sign they are scum but it is something which you'll need to reconsider when that player is still alive past their expiration date.

[mastina]

And your right again, my perspective is from town (why do you think that is). Yet your perspective is from scum (thank you for admitting that). Why is your perspective not from town?

About that. Remember what I said in my opening post?

My view on the game is impossible to succinctly summarize, but basically I see it as a social game focusing largely on psychology, with some logistics/statistics, balancing possibilities versus probabilities.
One quirk I have is viewing every player simultaneously as town and scum. I view each possibility, and then I weigh them, to determine probability. Which makes more sense? I set guidelines. I'll see each player as town and scum in a given moment, by the balance of probability.

...An extension of this is that I don't think in just one perspective.

I think in

every

perspective.
I have to think of EVERY mathematical combination, and I do.
I run the math on literally every possible scumteam.
Inherent in this process, is that I have to think like scum, in order to determine how likely that scum pairing would be: "how likely would it be for this scumteam to act in the way we have seen them act in-thread?" And applied to every team. Then further entering the picture is the opposite side. "How likely would it be for this player to be town acting this way?" I literally think in every possibility.

So it's not that I think in terms of town.
Or think in terms of scum.
It's that I think in terms of

everything

. Literally everything. Not just one side. ALL sides. Literally every fucking single one of them.

[mastina]

Even if I was scum, my buddy isn't going to directly help push my wagon. Just sayin.

True enough, though it's not mutual...



Which reminds me. Now that it's over, I can share with you that I've known Alisae was scum in this game since March 16th. I suspected (and as of March 15th, knew) Grey was town in that same game. So literally from the

moment

D2 began, I have had a very recent encounter with Alisae as scum and Grey as town and that was and still is influencing my read.

[mastina]

I don't believe that people can change their subconscious posting style at will, but that's just me.

Makes me wonder why you bothered to ask me to be succinct then.

But, half true all the same.
There are things I cannot change.
There are things that I

can

change, but choose not to because I have a mantra of "if it aint broke, don't fix it". (As in, my scumplay works, so why change it? I don't get lynched as scum and in the rare instances I am, I almost never lose.)

[mastina]

btw we have 3 days do decide on a deadline lynch.

I have my eye on the deadline, and believe me, I make sure that I am around at the time of it or hammer before the time of it. However, that is the only circumstance in which I will actually vote ThinkBig: to hammer before deadline.

Though, to be honest.
I'd kinda expect ThinkBig to self-hammer regardless of his alignment, just with the timing/circumstances/reasoning differing.

[mastina]

my scumgame isn't really that threatenning.

Says the person who just bragged in White Flag they have a perfect scumgame record.

[mastina]

Not exactly giving him much time to get established, like she was willing to do with Thinkbig.

Different players, different reads, different expectations, different circumstances, different timing. Take your pick, because all five apply.

For instance, Alisae had a chance to read the game during the night.
ThinkBig did not.

Enter Chris who attacks her and now Mastina says the scum team is Alisae and Chris, and there is no way in hell that is the scum team.

I think you have a timing problem. I noted my issues with Chris before he was Chris.

[Icy]

You know we don't have to wait until friday

[oldwino]

Still staying on DogWatch, sorry guys. We all mostly agree that DW is scummy; the only argument here is that we might be mistaking scuminess for newb-ness. I don't like that argument, because I still think that DW's main focus is appearing town - more so than helping the town. Even newer players would have the tone of wanting to Lynch someone / help the town, but I'm really not seeing that in DW.

So you don't believe Dog's comment implying she thought scum had day chat was a townslip? But instead a plot to deceive us she is town? That's the premise most of us are buying that makes us think Dog is town. I thought almost everyone thought she was town??? Scummy, but town.

[oldwino]

You know we don't have to wait until friday

I'll try to put time into reading and re-reading today and comment on this. Today's busy in RL for me.
I mostly skip Mastina's walls because I don't believe them and think they are mostly a web of confusion and too complex logic.
Occam's razor, they are not.

[Icy]

Still staying on DogWatch, sorry guys. We all mostly agree that DW is scummy; the only argument here is that we might be mistaking scuminess for newb-ness. I don't like that argument, because I still think that DW's main focus is appearing town - more so than helping the town. Even newer players would have the tone of wanting to Lynch someone / help the town, but I'm really not seeing that in DW.

Well I'm on the fence myself with dog, but it doesn't really help town for you to be there alone. Who do you think is likely her partner?, and why?

[oldwino]

Gut (there's that word again) tells me there's little chance Mastina and Ulti are scumbuddies. If Mastina is scum, then she's coaching behind the scenes, and there's no way Ulti would come up with such a terrible vote (on his own scumbuddy no less) if they're conversing outside this thread.

That leaves the possibilities that Mastina is actually town and Ulti is scum, or they're both town and Ulti is barking up the wrong tree.

Gut insists Ulti just doesn't know what he's doing yet (says a lot coming from me) and sheeped a bit on those of us who did vote Mastina.

I still need to sort through the novels Mastina has posted in this thread (busy weekend, haven't been keeping up) but for right now, my vote stays on her. Not joining the Ulti wagon yet.

This is where Dog mentions possible scum coaching behind the scenes. In the next post, RC says there is no scum day chat, and in the following post Smith says Dog is probably town because of her comment about coaching behind the scenes. Later, others refer to this as Dog's 'townslip' so after that, most of us thought she was town unless well coached in pregame and I can't tell if there was any pregame opportunity or not.

@ IC - can you tell from looking at the first page if there was any opportunity for pregame chatting between scum? Looks to me like the mod didn't allow time for that, but I don't know if scum can chat while the mod is waiting for the required number of players to confirm.

[oldwino]

@ Mod/PP

- I can't tell from the D1 opening if there was any opportunity for pregame chatting between scum. Looks to me like the you didn't allow time for that, but I don't know if scum can chat while you were waiting for the required number of players to confirm. Can and will you clarify if scum had an opportunity for pregame chat and coaching? Thanks.

[ThinkBig]

@ Mod/PP

- I can't tell from the D1 opening if there was any opportunity for pregame chatting between scum. Looks to me like the you didn't allow time for that, but I don't know if scum can chat while you were waiting for the required number of players to confirm. Can and will you clarify if scum had an opportunity for pregame chat and coaching? Thanks.

Town slip.

Though in my experience, there is usually a small window of time to chat pre game. Not sure if they did have a chance or not in this game.