Large Normal 203 | Scale of the Universe - Finally Over

[Priscila]

Alright so far as Fykus is concerned this player feels fairly obvscum to me right now and I would love for him to start doing things to change my mind if he is actually town. His RVS opening is somewhat awkward (one line, choice of response feels a bit "too obvious, scum would never say this", no follow-up interactions or attempts to engage with other slots). His jump onto the Rhaz wagon immediately follows Drum's vote, and if I really tried I could see that kind of vote coming from a villager who read Drum's post, liked the reasoning and sheeped it, except.. Fykus hadn't engaged with Rhaz at all up to that point in the game and hasn't engaged with him since. He did nothing with that vote.

In his next piece of content he proceeds to blatantly shade Gamma, then expresses some weak suspicion of Waffles and sheeps Tywin's case on Waffles. My problem with this is that nowhere has he shown the slightest interest in sorting anyone, not even the people he is voting. He doesn't even appear to have his own reasons for voting in the first place, but simply uses other people's content. This feels to me like newbie scum who simply does not know how to fake scumhunting or engagement. I definitely need something from Fykus or he is going to be attracting my vote sooner rather than later.

[WhyMafia]

I'm gutreading WHyMafia and Drumbeats scum atm.

Oops
Never saw this post mulch

[Gamma Emerald]

I looked up Creature's MD and modding history and the role would make sense, thing is, Tywin has been extremely scummy. Last time he was a cop he was rather passable as Town, enough so that he got nightkilled before he could claim.

Two things:

1. I didnt copy/paste my role. I paraphrased. So CptPicard: Absolutely ridiculous and classless to push for a modkill. This is how people end up hating each other and becoming toxic anytime they land in games together. Classless moves like that. You should be ashamed. Get your scum win the legitimate way, or replace out.

2. Gamma, you're scum here. The one completed cop game I have had was so long ago that idk what to say. I also wasn't lolwagoned by everyone that game on D1 either. So I didn6 need to claim. Tbh, I had checked you, because you looked so scummy it was insane. You've kept up that meta I see.

As for that game, I caught Grey!scum D1 with my normal reads. I got him lynched, and scum shot me N2 for it. Never had a wagon, because people didnt try to quicklynch Town PRs. People pay attention in smaller games.

Gamma is hoping I say something stupid beyond this, but I won't bother to elaborate. I will just

VOTE: Gamma

Trust me, he's scum. He is this obvious, which is why he builds his town meta to be as scummy as possible. It's his only way to win as scum. He rolled scum here. I just know. Watch and see.

Well you were wagoned because you are really scummy this game. What caused the difference? Sure I had a difference in gameplay from my first to second cop game, but not as wild as yours seems to be.
Also I was thinking of what mafia benefits arise from that role and here's what I thought of. They can claim innocents on their scumbuddies, guilty a town, and generally derail the town.
And I still want an explanation as to

why you were so obsessed with me being anti Town when you could check me.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also would be more than ok to lynch CptPicard. His hoping for a modkill while not wanting to actually lynch me is scum motivation. That's not coming from a townie. It just isn't. He didnt care to even wait for a CC before trying to shade me, and him HOPING for a modkill, but being too afraid to actually lynch me shows everything you need to see. He's scum.

Waffles I'd also lynch. Priscilla may just be town that asks a billion questions, points things out, then does those exact same things herself without even realizing. I think scum Priscla would know better, since they aren't dumb. Waffles, on the other hand, has done nothing but hop on other people's pushes, throws out some buzzwords he doesnt understand, and didnt care to think about what he's doing. Actually, maybe he is town for this. I'm not sure.

Gamma/CptPicard/Wraith are my scum reads at this point.

Nope. I played with someone who baited a modkill as Town. The guy got lynched soon after.

[TheYankeeReaper]

Reaper's Re-Read Thoughts :

post 151 - I'm going to unabashedly sheep this because this was basically my thoughts to a T regarding the Rhaz wagon and Drum Beats before I disappeared. This is a town reading between the lines. My shitty off-hand posts post 100 post 101 prior to it.

Proactive approach with:

+Active questioning
+Good observations

Strong Town Read: Priscila

Tywin Lannister doesn't shit gold, but he's likely

town.

Lot of posts that could be perceived as apparent AtE, but I think his roleclaim is genuine.

Moderate Scum Read: WhyMafia

-

- Posts contain suspicion on certain players, yet refuses to commit to any votes

post 144 (has rhaz as biggest scumread but doesn't vote),post 234 (agrees posters are acting strange. proceeds to not follow up at all, except with post 236 commenting on priscila over-reacting on a scumslip, still no follow up with any votes.)

GAMMAWAFFLES

God damn I hate how you're playing this game. Majority of your posts are just bad. Just a bunch of vote-hopping and a unwillingness or incapability of giving concise player reads (Save for a strange buddying up with

Dunnstral

for "obvtown") I honestly don't know if you're game is bad town play or just blatant scum. First a OMGUS vote on me, then waffles, then Nosferatu, then putting Tywin at L-3 which forced a claim and even afterwards you try to discredit the claim post 336. Literally just a string of posts tunneling him and then followed by a half-assed announcement that you're going to lurk post 388.

Honestly, I don't want you alive in the late-game. I did not expect to open this big of a can of worms with me putting early pressure on you, but god gave me a firm slap on the ass and said "Reap what you sow, kid".

It's like i'm Andy Dufress in

The Shawshank Redemption

and i'm hammering on the sewage pipe and a load of shit just comes flying into my face. This is me wrinkling my nose and praying I can reach the other side of this shit tunnel and finally escape.

SlingShotWaffles

Alright, I'm actually thinking this guy is mafia.
post 16 - Calls Gamma scum after he OMGUS votes me. Doesn't lay a vote down (I even commented on this)
post 52 - Mulch votes regarding his post, defends it
post 62 - Not even two posts later and he 180s by trying to say "It was a joke". It doesn't make sense not to clarify this in his previous post responding to the vote on him. Not to mention, he only brings it up when somebody other than Mulch puts pressure on him.
post 69 - I admit this is going to be some weak-ass shit to throw, but the fact that my other scumread is on WhyMafia makes me want to take this post literally as a "hiding-in-plain-sight" in an attempt to distance the two.

"What scum would post his own partner in chat? No scum, that's who!"

post 189 - This made my scumdar almost shit itself. Just

buzzwords, buzzwords, buzzwords

to make his vote seem as if it actually had merit. Completely content to abstain from voting prior to this, but as soon as Tywin lynch gets traction he suddenly has a fire lit under his ass. Pulls the same shit as Gamma and tunnels Tywin until roleclaim.
post 344 - Is this shit for real?
post 378 - Oh, ok. Good test. Unfortunate that it fell apart so quick and you had to reveal it because one simple post questioned it. The Tywin wagon falls apart and the only substantial contribution is a inefficient attempt to make it appear like you're actually scum-hunting.

So, we got a player who:

A.) Pretends to scumhunt
B.) Doesn't commit to votes and the one lynch he did commit to is a cop claim

Unvote: GammaEmeralds

Vote: SlingShotWaffles

I like Mulch for

town

. He wants the same people dead as I do.

I'll post more reads and thoughts later, just wanted to throw out my maf reads.

[SlingshotWaffles]

Reaper's Re-Read Thoughts :

post 151 - I'm going to unabashedly sheep this because this was basically my thoughts to a T regarding the Rhaz wagon and Drum Beats before I disappeared. This is a town reading between the lines. My shitty off-hand posts post 100 post 101 prior to it.

Proactive approach with:

+Active questioning
+Good observations

Strong Town Read: Priscila

Tywin Lannister doesn't shit gold, but he's likely

town.

Lot of posts that could be perceived as apparent AtE, but I think his roleclaim is genuine.

Moderate Scum Read: WhyMafia

-

- Posts contain suspicion on certain players, yet refuses to commit to any votes

post 144 (has rhaz as biggest scumread but doesn't vote),post 234 (agrees posters are acting strange. proceeds to not follow up at all, except with post 236 commenting on priscila over-reacting on a scumslip, still no follow up with any votes.)

Why actually seems fairly townie to me this game.

[Priscila]

Reaper, I have spent the past hour or so looking at meta for WhyMafia and I think that he plays this way as town. I have been getting a lot of the same feelings as you, but I think they result in a deceptively scummy appearance. I think that he is just careless and does not reason through his reads thoroughly, so it appears as if he has not thought at all and his questions seem light, but I don't feel anything from him that is deceptive and I feel that if he were scum he would have a slightly different personality than this. Here he does not seem to mind anything but just goes his own direction, from scum this is not typical behavior and I don't think that a player of this skill level would be capable of faking that to the extent that I see it here. I'm happy to revisit this read with you as we progress and see more content from that player but I think from his statements about being universally scumread, you should be sure to sort him with that in mind. I'm also waiting to hear from Boonskiies, because it seems they have played together before, and I hope to get some input from him about that playstyle.

[Priscila]

About Waffles, I also looked at some of his meta, and I found a game where he is lynched on day 1 as a PR. I think this is another player of the same type, and we should be much more careful in our reads on these slots so that we don't end up scumreading them for appearances that may not be representing their alignment very well. What I am trying to read in Waffles is whether his motives are genuine, not how he presents himself. To get a proper read on that, I think for sure I will need more than 1 day, and that is why I would prefer to treat such players carefully early in the game. If he is evil, I think this will become obvious later. The way he treated Tywin's claim was scummy, but that for me is the worst thing he has done, and I think the conviction he has shown this early in the game is a very good sign to me that his motives are genuine.

[Gamma Emerald]

Priscila I cannot read your posts they're just too big

[Priscila]

@Tywin lol last few posts=lots of AtE.

Fuck off scum. I'll get you lynched soon regardless of if I go first or not. I'm taking you and Priscilla down with me, because you're obvious scum.

And giving up?

lol what is this site?

Well, you have no other reaction to the claim?

What do you mean by this?

Sorry, I did not see this question. I didn't appreciate how you handled the claim at all, and I didn't think this post was useful. How does this help you sort Tywin, or determine if his claim is real? My question to you there was mostly frustration. If you are town and want to demonstrate this to others, it's not helpful to respond in such surface ways to other players. The best way for me personally to get a read on your alignment is to see which arguments you pick, how you go about arguing them and how you support them. Here, there is not even an argument. Please help me by giving a little more than this, at least from now on?

[Priscila]

Priscila I cannot read your posts they're just too big

Well, then I will type in one line when I need to talk to you.

[Priscila]

If you need a summary of a post, I can give it. Just ask.

unvote

vote: Fykus

I'll be back in a few hours. Please talk to me more about your reads, Reaper?

[Gamma Emerald]

That works but just try to break it into paragraphs please

[Nosferatu]

And I still want an explanation as to why you were so obsessed with me being anti Town when you could check me.

I'm not sure you know what the point of a policy lynch is.

[Gamma Emerald]

And I still want an explanation as to why you were so obsessed with me being anti Town when you could check me.

I'm not sure you know what the point of a policy lynch is.

He was joking about the PL, but he was still raving about me being impossible to sort so I want that explained.

[mozamis]

up to p10. not loving Boonskies. Lots of fluff/info w/out analysis. POS. SCUM.

[mozamis]

p7 in fact

[mozamis]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Just annoys me

Nope, this isnt good enough, particularly from Dunn, who is a good player.
Pos.s cum.

[mozamis]

really has that whiff of scum piling on a bandwagon and being "casual town" about it.

[mozamis]

Also regarding rhazh: Probably not a lynch for today

because he is your scum buddy?

Need some explanations from you.

[DrumBeats]

Drumbeats not everything has to have a perfect explanation. I don't like how you are shading Dunstral with that

I thought it was odd - Dunn was actively posting and was asked questions about it, but never provided any explanation. I never asked for a perfect one, I just wanted something. Let me know whether its a gutread, whether there's something specific, but don't just throw a vote and never come back to it. If Dunn thought Nos was scum, it would be Dunn's job to convince us about it. Can't do that if you just throw the vote.

@Everyone

Can you posts thoughts on waffles and his inability to backup one of his points? At this point his complete lack of seemingly caring how bad he looks is ironically making me think he is townier but I would like to get more experienced players' take on this

On first read, I didn't notice it too much - except with regards to his suggestion that Tywin's aggressive behavior was AI. I'll go back and ISO waffles and see how I feel.

It's not always as simple as just looking at your team size; either team can be balanced in a way that makes up for the lack of players with powers during the night. It can be intuitive, but better safe than sorry is a common mentality among people, and I don't know Priscilla well enough to know if she would jump headfirst into the night, so I'll assume she won't; ergo she'll be looking for other scum.

Noted on the multiball meta. Thanks!

Sorry I overslept. Are you still here DrumBeats?

What bothers me about DrumBeats is the way that he is pushing a narrative where his scumread on RhazBash is meaningful rather than genuinely digging into the content, analyzing the reasoning behind it and providing his own as to why that reasoning comes from scum. His approach is rhetorical, and he conflates largley null behavior into something damning.

Can you please elaborate on this? From my perspective at least I was analyzing potential motives behind Rhaz's post. On day one, there's not necessarily a ton of information to go off of, but Rhaz's post stuck out to me as the worst. Sure, it could come from a town perspective, but there is high motive for scum to encourage the Gamma PL or one on Gamma's first voters. I never said Rhaz's behavior was damning or it had to come from scum - but I pointed out why it could be from scum and what a scum player's motives could be for making the moves that Rhaz is making.

Well I think the issue I have with it is how you projected a lot of motives onto him that you can't be sure about and then found him scummy for potentially having those motives. It doesn't feel genuine to me because what you picked at was one line. If RhazBash had displayed consistent behavior that showed he had this motive and tried to portray events within the narrative that he showed in that one line, and tried to get people mislynched and distance himself from the responsibility, then I think of course you should call that out and that's an excellent reason for a scumread. But to say that he has all these motives from just one line, I think that's reaching and kind of committing the same error that you accuse him of.

I wasn't projecting the motives as much as stating that they are possible motives. I can't be sure about them, but of the little content available that early in the day, it was what stuck out to me most because I've seen that type of post from scum in the past. Claiming that you don't necessarily agree a player is scum, but you think either them or one of their early voters is scum paints a target on several people, while also being vague enough that you cannot be at fault if any of them are mislynched. It doesn't take a wallpost to do something shady, and especially with Rhazh's low content count as a whole, it was very odd imo - and still is.

His point about scum adapting for the type of scumhunting in thread is simplistic and shallow, scum will already analyze their own behavior with greater foresight and worry than town. The act of aborting a bus is very basic. Gamma's mention of it is too broad to be effective. Reminding people that an established wagon manipulation technique exists on page 1 is not going to meaningfully affect whether that technique is used in a specific instance during the game.

I looked at how the post would benefit a town Gamma vs a scum Gamma. A town Gamma would get no benefit from the post because town Gamma is pointing out something that as you said is very basic. Why would it need to be pointed out then? Scum Gamma however would benefit from it by appearing to be actively analyzing the game through the basic "analysis." Scum Gamma could also use that post in the future to organically target players that did abort a bus. Granted, town players often to not benefit from everything they post, but I felt the discrepancy worth pointing out.

Okay, I can accept this logic from you, however I don't agree that it's a solid reason for a scumread and I think that you may be reading too much into possible future scenarios rather than dealing with here and now.

Difference in playstyle I guess. Reading into future implications allows you to see what people might be trying to do in the here and now.

There is also the way that he positioned his vote on Gamma as if he knew it was coming off before long. I get the feeling that he wants to

seem to be

engaging directly and actively with content in a thoughtful way, and is taking this as a rhetorical position, rather than truly engaging with the content. The way that he continued to argue his position as he unvoted Gamma to vote RhazBash suggests to me that he does not truly feel conviction in his reads, but merely argues for their validity and postures around them.

Or that I want to look at all options and address each of them. Just because I'm voting Rhaz does not mean I am turned off by a Gamma lynch right now. This is a 10 day day phase, and I've never played anything longer than a 2-3 day phase, so I knew more options would become present throughout the day. Of course I'm going to argue my position on both of them because my stance on Gamma has yet to change, but Rhaz jumped higher in my suspicion, and Gamma was a few votes away from a majority lock. I wanted to make sure the majority wouldn't lock on Gamma before we considered other options like Rhaz.

Alright. On your HS, do people usually decide the lynch very quickly and lock it in like that?

On both of the sites I've played on, lynches have been deadline only so there's no locking it in. It usually starts similarly with random and joke votes, and then one person jumps out and becomes the primary suspicion. Usually a few counterwagons form as well, but the final decision is rarely a majority and occurs after a 48 hour day, so it is faster paced.

I think that RhazBash's premature position on today's wagons feels like a genuine attempt to scumhunt that came off as surface scummy. I read the translation of that post as "there is scum in one of those that we should lynch". DrumBeats' attempt to pin it as having malicious intent is disingenuous. It is

possible

from that post that RhazBash is scum who knows that all of the early pushers of Gamma's wagon are town, but it is

equally possible

that he is simply scumhunting, therefore the post is null without greater context. DrumBeats argument is slightly more than just that RhazBash is informed, however. He argues that RhazBash is lining up lynches and putting on an act to shed responsibility. This is very stretchy. Following this, he argues that RhazBash's position that wagons should be broken down is suspicious and comes from an informed perspective. He is again attempting to twist fairly null content into scum content by drawing a narrative where that is already the case.

I don't think his reasons for voting Gamma or RhazBash have any merit and his attempts to make those reasons persuasive feels like sophistry. It's still possible that this content is coming from a reckless, overzealous townie with poor reasoning, but for now I have a scumlean on DrumBeats.

I don't believe I'm twisting anything, because again I am talking about possible motives. On day one we have no concrete information to work with, so I choose to look at what motives could be behind a post. One thing I see in both Gamma and Rhaz (much moreso in Rhaz) is setting traps. They have each presented hypothetical reasons to target somebody in the future, which largely benefits the scum moreso than the town. It is wholly possible that they are both townies who are accidentally doing this, but the "traps" they are setting, intentionally or not, are behaviors which benefit the scumteam and could potentially come from scum players. Call my reasoning poor, but I stand by it.

I think our problem so far is that we have very different ways of scumhunting and maybe some different definitions too. We should try to resolve this difference in perspective if we want to work together. When I say motives, I don't think about what possible scenarios or traps they were planning, I think about whether their intention was bad (for example, to shade) or good (for example, to sort) or such things. I can think about what they were planning too, but that comes separately for me, and it's less important in my scumhunting, because I think that usually players do not plan so far ahead with things, maybe in a general sense yes, but I don't think it becomes very specific in most cases. The bigger picture is important, and I feel that you are looking very narrowly? I will try to understand you better as we get more into the game.

From what I've seen of your info pushes, I think our styles aren't too different in the long run, I just think we approach Day 1 very differently. I agree that the big picture is important and feel that ignoring these motives is thinking narrowly.

[mozamis]

Gamma you have to know by now why everyone would rather PL you than

Please dont speak for me. Dont like this, feels like swcum trying to present false dichtomy "Gamma's either sum, or if not, he's got to go anyway". No.
Pos. scum.

[DrumBeats]

I like this post - townreading Mulch rn.

Can you say what you like about it? And about your Mulch read generally?

I felt like it was a very fair assessment on Tywin while he was an easy target. Mulch is among my top townreads right now because many of his takes on the game have felt organic to me. I can see how he's come to all of his conclusions.

[DrumBeats]

Alright, ISO'ing Gamma, Rhazh, Picard, Slingshot, and Dunn.

Gamma:
#5 is still bad to me. Fluff that can potentially be used to trap another player, but it could very likely be unintentional. #11 has the OMGus vote, which I also don't like. #56 he mentions scumreads on Slingshot and Rhazh. This was before Rhazh built up a wagon. #98 votes Rhazh, which some suggested was just hopping on the opposing bandwagon, but the read built up organically. Understandably gets defensive and frustrated with the talk of PL'ing him. #166 and #168 he questions Tywin's townread of him. This is a good look imo. #244 and #245 are consistent which I like. Disagreed with both Priscila and Nosferatu's "slip" accusations. #248 still doesn't make sense to me. The read comes out of nowhere, and I don't understand the insistence that Dunn needs to townread Gamma as well for them to work together. #281 is a mixed baf. Backs off the vote after the skeptical claim to stop it from locking but also baits PR claiming. #336 makes me feel likke the role confusion there was more genuine than malicious. #370 had more insistence that Dunn is obvtown, backs it up in #373 which makes the Dunn read feel a bit better. #427 is also a good look imo. Gamma seems genuinely frustrated about Tywin not wanting to check him.

Overall -

Townread

Rhazh:
#12 insists that Gamma's behavior isn't alignment indicative, but suggests a PL anyway and votes for it on #48, after 4 other votes are on Gamma. Inital suggestion happened when only two votes were on Gamma. I find it odd that if the reasoning for Rhaz never changed, why not place the third vote instead of waiting for the wagon to take off? #70 is the one you all know my thoughts about. This post is scummy as hell, even more so now that I see that Rhazh waited until after the early votes were placed on Gamma. #97 is weird to me as well. Backing down on it after drawing up suspicion becase it "doesn't sound as good as when he thought about it". Returns later with #238, where Rhazh votes (4th vote) for the newest popular target, Tywin. The reasoning here is weak imo because of all of Tywin's accusations, the one on Priscila had the most reasoning behind it, yet this is the one that is criticized. It looks like Rhazh trying to find a quick reason to hop onto his counterwagon. It helps that Tywin was such an easy target due to his behavior. #365 backs off of Tywin and throws a gutread vote on Dunn. The immediate turn on Tywin's behavior here is odd - but given the long gap between the postings I think that could be more related to what occurred in those 100ish posts. I wouldn't say this post is suspicious - though I'd like a more solid read than "gutread".

Overall -

Scumread

Picard:
Most of his early stuff were joke votes, but one of them (#125)stood out to me. At the end he calls out the two people who say they are going to lurk - which strikes me as odd given Picard's low content. Picard has 11 posts here and the first 4 are RVS/memes. #253 is a vote on Tywin (#6) and the reasoning feels possible. It is piggybacked off of Priscila and doesn't add anything new though. I don't think this post is alignment indicative but so far I still don't feel like Picard's contributed anything. Then there's modkillgate, which Picard walks out of with a very poor look imo. #411 makes me feel a little bit better. It does seem possible that Picard is a jumpy townie who thought he caught a scum Tywin in a lie. I really need more content from Picard as a whole - half of it is joke/meme posts and the other half is defending modkillgate, with only 1-2 other posts of content.

Overall -

Null - leaning scum

Slingshot
#16 calls Gamma's jump in logic for the OMGus. #59 pushes for reasoning behind votes - good look imo. #62 is odd though because Slingshot insists the vote on Gamma is a joke - but #52 disagrees with this. Interesting. #76 is odd because he acts like he never pushed Gamma now. Huh. #189 again bothers me that he acts as if these behaviors are AI. #209 - asks for proof out of Dunn, which is good imo. Other people have scumread this post but I don't see it. #307 feels like genuine frustration of being suspected for asking for reasoning - but given that Sling hasn't been doing this much himself, I'm not sure what to feel about it. #344 offers a test for mulch. Not sure what to make of it without it developing. (Checked mulch's post - developed into nothing at all.) Near the end - he keeps making a big deal about not remembering which game it is, which could either be genuine or an attempt to justify and retract poor statements. #430 is a townread on Why - but with no reasoning again. I find the pressing for reasoning of others odd given that Sling rarely gives himself.

Overall -

Scumread

Alright - I've been looking at this too long, but I would be open to a Sling or a Rhazh lynch today. I want to look closer at Dunn and Why soon too, but I've already spent too long on the rest of this so I'm getting off.

[DrumBeats]

Also I just found out when I tried to click those post links that I don't know how to properly do those. Disregard the links unless you want to be sent to random threads, my bad. If somebody could link me somewhere that explains how to use them for the future that would be greatly appreciated