Mini Normal 1914 - Sunshine Mafia - Game Over

[Dragnalus]

VOTE: TwoFace

[Dragnalus]

unvote

[Dragnalus]

Ingeel's reaction to RVS pressure is a bit off-putting, mostly because he didn't even recognize it. I am not saying that I expected a full-blown reaction, but instead of trying to open up discussion why he was put into L-3, he just made a light joke unrelated to it instead. The people who know him should chime in on my assumptions so we can move out of this phase. I'm not really a fan of twiddling my thumbs and waiting for something to happen.

[Dragnalus]

We tend to either ignore RvS wagons or meme on it

So basically not alignment indicative, alright.

Not seeing your argument Mario.

[Dragnalus]

you know what dragalnus? I'm not really a fan of twiddling my thumbs and waiting for something to happen. can you make a vote?

The only person I'd genuinely consider voting is you right now. I get you only have two posts to construct your argument against LaLight but my interpretation is completely opposite of the one you gave. I felt LaLight was very sincere in his attempts to get to know people better, even if it was fundamentally useless. I don't think scum enjoy being the center of attention all too often unless they either want to bolster a fake read or try creating mislynches.

[Dragnalus]

The people who know him should chime in on my assumptions so we can move out of this phase.

why would this be necessary?

My answer was in the post you quoted, I just wanted a reason to get out of RVS.

[Dragnalus]

Is your unvote a tell that you didn't believe your own read on LaLight and don't want to discuss it further or that you just like the pointing the finger?

[Dragnalus]

That doesn't really make sense to me honestly. You seemed pretty sure of yourself in the post you made. If it was null and you were only trying to apply pressure to solidify it further, why did you flip onto me?

[Dragnalus]

The people who know him should chime in on my assumptions so we can move out of this phase.

why would this be necessary?

My answer was in the post you quoted, I just wanted a reason to get out of RVS.

I get wanting to get out of rvs but why would you want to hear from people who known him? like what purpose would that serve? it wouldn't help determine alignment so I don't understand why you would want input from these people.

I wanted to gauge their responses and it breeds discussion.

That doesn't really make sense to me honestly. You seemed pretty sure of yourself in the post you made. If it was null and you were only trying to apply pressure to solidify it further, why did you flip onto me?

Because I feel like you are scummier than LaLight and would rather pressure you.

I'm taking it more as knee-jerk reaction.

[Dragnalus]

I'm not really feeling your pressure right now, moreso I just find myself questioning your stances thus far. Hypothetically speaking, can me and LaLight be in the same team? What do I gain out of defending him after you applied pressure?

[Dragnalus]

I wanted to gauge their responses and it breeds discussion.

right but not all discussions are useful, and the one you were hoping for is an example of that.

doing something just for the sake of doing it comes off as fake and unnatural.

ending rvs for the sake of rvs and generating discussions for the sake of generating discussions are 2 examples of that.

I don't really understand why you felt the need to do either and somehow I don't think I will get an acceptable answer so I will just end this discussion

I'd say it's worth it in the end. Sometimes you just have to do something even if you end up getting cursory glances from people.

Dragnalus' post does not include a vote.
You guys should vote him.

I don't know why you're being so obstinate right now.

[Dragnalus]

Why are you not answering my questions? I'll vote when you answer them. Deal?

[Dragnalus]

I'm more interested in information than playing along. This refers back to the whole 'worth it in the end.' I don't mind that you don't really see or understand my playstyle, but you could at pitch in on how you feel about what's being discussed right now.

[Dragnalus]

There's more than just that, though. Mario made a firm stance on LaLight and instantly backed off to put half-hearted pressure on me without countering why I felt his vote was misplaced.

[Dragnalus]

I'm not really feeling your pressure right now, moreso I just find myself questioning your stances thus far. Hypothetically speaking, can me and LaLight be in the same team? What do I gain out of defending him after you applied pressure?

^ this was the question i didnt answer
of course, yes- you and lalight could be on the same team

you gain the ability to use that as a defence

I'm not sure why you couldn't say this earlier, though I probably won't vote because now I'm unsure how to read you. You seem like the type of players who exaggerates to instill fear into people in order to get them to react, though initially I felt your push was pretty rubbish and didn't make a lot of sense.

[Dragnalus]

There's more than just that, though. Mario made a firm stance on LaLight and instantly backed off to put half-hearted pressure on me without countering why I felt his vote was misplaced.

I didn't really have a firm stance on lalight
You don't like my vote on LaLight and that's fine I guess. If I ever need to convince you LaLight is scum I can argue with you over that.

See my recent post. I think your intentions are fine even if I don't agree with how you went about it. You and LaLight are my town-reads as of now.

[Dragnalus]

My initial read on Mario based on his vote on LaLight was nothing more than simply disagreeing with it, and that it seemed to be done with lack of assurance. I didn't feel it was an all too serious vote nor did I really expect it to be, but I could at least try and understand how Mario would explain himself or how he would react to the questions I gave him. Needless to say, I didn't like how he was constantly insisting that I vote mostly because 1) Votes aren't permanent, and can change at any time and 2) I had no reason to vote someone. I'm pretty sure Mario just wanted to see if I took his bait and voted someone so he could get a read out of it, though I guess that makes me a bit of a jerk because I decided to act a bit coy and ignore his demands. I think Mario is the type of player who isn't all that analytical or spends time explaining himself unless needed to, but I do think that him trying to appease me and eventually answering my questions was enough to feel that his intentions could be town motivated.

I had a gut RVS read on TwoFace even if it wasn't really developed nor went anywhere. I placed my vote on him in RVS to see if he'd take a bite but I suppose that requires giving words to it. I don't know how to feel about him coming onto me because in one regard he thinks I'm an alt and in the other he says I should go back to the newbie queue for thinking Mario could have a developed scum read two pages in. It felt like he was sidelining the whole instance between me and mario instead of really getting involved, which I didn't like.

Everyone else I don't have a definitive read on outside of gut which isn't worth mentioning at this current point. I'll be around later to see how the thread develops.

[Dragnalus]

For somebody who was looking at how ingeel reacted to the votes on him, you clearly missed the point of mario's vote on light

dragon, how can you look at a player's reactions to votes on him and not realize that mario saying light is scum is probably made with the intentions of getting a reaction from light (and probably others like your reaction lol)

I did realize it. Did you not read my posts #43 and #49? I don't really enjoy repeating myself but I made those claims to bring about discussion, and I mentioned the people who Ingeel has played with before so I could get their perspective/reaction to it as means to get out of RVS. I'll try and be more clear in the future.

Also making a liar out of myself by viewing this thread again, though playing Mafia is entertaining and I've missed it.

[Dragnalus]

I don't have any questions or vote for you right now Mario so I guess we're at a standstill.

Maybe I should use a more cheery avatar so people don't think I'm a conniving menace who doesn't understand tone.

[Dragnalus]

Dragnalaus please I liked your old avatar more

I do too, but how I am supposed to get the masses on my side if I'm not a cheery anime girl? =(

[Dragnalus]

I wasn't ignoring your Syndesis, I just wasn't checking the thread. The unvote was just for posterity sake, if that makes sense.

I'll make a more meaningful post when I'm less tired. There's a lot I want to comment on.

[Dragnalus]

Had some decent sleep.

Also making a liar out of myself by viewing this thread again,

I guess that would be the 2nd time for those not counting, though your 1st lie is more egregious...

You mean when I said Mario I would vote if he answered my questions and then proceeded not to? Do you believe in LAL that much? I don't know why this is your biggest qualm, nor do I understand what else you particularly want from me.

Well to be fair he thinks scum doesn't want to be the center of attention and he was starting to become the center of attention right around the time he said he was going to "be around later to see hoe the thread develops" which to me basically says "I'm going to lurk and avoid interacting with people for a while"

You're egging it on at this point, I can't always commit to the thread. It's not good to clog it either and I believe only posting when you have something worthwhile to say is more sufficient than just making vague one-liners about things happening around you, though I will say some players can do this well, and in this instance I don't believe you're one of them. Why do you seem only focused on me so much? I'm pretty sure I'm the only person you've tried deliberating at this point. I understand that in your eyes, I am your scum-read but I don't feel it looks good when your priority is making puns and posts like #139 which was just "Hmm."

[Dragnalus]

I am going to shoot the shit and say that if there's a world with Jordarrian and TwoFace and one of them being scum, it's not both. I don't feel TwoFace would provoke Jordarrian nor make unnecessary questions towards his hesitance and doubt in him as scum. If anyone feels this is a stretch feel free to speak up, but in my eyes I don't see why a partner would interact in this way with each other. Jordarrian on the other hand I vaguely like but only because he gives me a innocuous vibe in how he words things, and nothing more. I don't know why he lacks the confidence but I'm sure there's a reason that I would like to hear when he has the time.

Yes and
Absolutely yes

I find that hard to believe, really.

I am deathtunneling Dragnalus until he completes his side of our agreement.

I may vote soon!

[Dragnalus]

And that hmm is huge. A player is refusing to answer my question. He's now my 2nd scum read after you.

I honestly don't understand why more people don't have an issue with it. Refusing to answer game related questions is very bad

Some questions aren't very well thought out or are completely pointless to the person who is asking it, either because it's been answered before or it just doesn't seem beneficial for the other party. I think Jord just has cold feet and I feel you are overlooking that and only considering one perspective.

[Dragnalus]

TwoFace, how do you feel about the other players who have not been answering questions when asked, such as TrueGent? Why is Jord the only exception in your eyes?

[Dragnalus]

Actually, I take that back. I was catching up and saw TrueGent at least has the ability to somewhat answer questions, though something just generally bothers me about his playstyle, and the responses he made. I completely agree with Mush in that just voting because someone asks you to is not a sufficient answer. Regardless, it alludes to what I was saying earlier before, and I would still like your opinion about him in general.

[Dragnalus]

I find that hard to believe, really.

Which part?

All of it. I think you're being petty about your read on me, especially when I clarified why I acted in the way I did towards Mario. I only made that post about saying that I would vote if he answered my questions to goad him into furthering our interaction. Is subtlety completely lost on you? That's a rhetorical question.

[Dragnalus]

Both the Gent and DannyBoy have become potentially acceptable lynches for me.
Drag too I'm thinking.
Mario and TwoFace can tentatively go dip their toes in the town pool.

I think Gent is potentially salvageable while I agree with DannyBoy being a good vote. The thing I am picking up most in this game especially is that a lot of players don't really have strong personalities nor playstyles, and I feel Gent's posting reaffirms that. I want to see what he does more before I cast judgment, though by the time you read this you should see why I disagree with TwoFace being town.

He said something I didn't agree with or understand.

I ask him to explain why he felt the way he felt

He refused.

If he's town he should be transparent. Refusing to answer a relevant question not once but twice raises red flags to me. It should raise flags to anyone else who is town.

My question wasn't about something stupid like yours were so he should have answered

Don't you think the way he reacted to even trying to state his opinion is telling in why he refused? I don't know why you are taking a holier than thou approach to this game if that's how you feel about people, mostly because your experience nor namesake really warrants it, and I'm sorry if that hurts your ego.

[Dragnalus]

You can keep trying to bludgeon with me your opinion but at the end of the day you have to make your argument worthwhile.

If you want to chalk this up as OMGUS and tack it onto your list of why I'm scum #1, so be it, but you really haven't impressed me in the way you're going about this.

VOTE: TwoFace

[Dragnalus]

My job isn't to impress you. It's to lynch scum which is what I'm trying to do.

Sounds like something everyone in this game tries to do, and that includes pretending to do so. This is gonna go anywhere so if you wanna keep tunneling me so be it, I don't really mind it coming down to the wire between us if neither of our opinions change.

[Dragnalus]

The thing I am picking up most in this game especially is that a lot of players don't really have strong personalities nor playstyles, and I feel Gent's posting reaffirms that.

I don't get that at all, and even if I did it wouldn't make Gent's behavior acceptable to me on a town-scum scale.

I want to see what he does more before I cast judgment, though by the time you read this you should see why I disagree with TwoFace being town.

Your disagreement with Two Face's stance is expressed as an opinion of optimal play and has no seeming bearing on calling his behavior scummy.

At best you're suggesting he could be attacking wider, but his responses to that claim seem reasonable. While we're at it Ingeel has also ducked a question, and Face hasn't attacked that either - but it makes perfect sense because, especially early in the game when you're learning to connect names and avatars, it's super easy to miss something like a question dodge when it isn't addressed, and much easier to note them when they are specifically responded to with a refusal to answer/you're the one who asked the question. The cases he's raised tends to fall into the latter - easier to note issues, and as a core position 'people should be willing to answer questions about the game to help town solve the game' he's correct, they should - so to call it a scumtell seems perfectly fine, so literally all you've got is it might be scummy because he's applying it unevenly.

And if you think that, vote Ingeel.
And if not, I don't get the issue with me calling him town.

Not sure where you got that argument, I didn't even mention certain play being optimal and others not being. I think his posts have mostly either been indistinguishable fluff or hardheaded assurance in himself that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. It's not the playstyle that sets me off, it is just the general uncooperative behavior and only focusing on

one

point instead of considering others. I'd like to think most town are open minded, even to a small extent. Funny enough, I think Ingeel is alright in my book, even if he fits into your assumption that I am only attacking TwoFace based on playstyle concern.

[Dragnalus]

My job isn't to impress you. It's to lynch scum which is what I'm trying to do.

Sounds like something everyone in this game tries to do, and that includes pretending to do so. This is gonna go anywhere so if you wanna keep tunneling me so be it, I don't really mind it coming down to the wire between us if neither of our opinions change.

Well since I've been scum hunting and you haven't people know who's really pretending. I'm a tunnelr and I usually get my way so may as well go sign up for another game cause I don't see you making it past day 1

That is again a pretty general statement that anyone could make, including scum. Tell me - are you gonna keep this same opinion up all game until I am dead?

[Dragnalus]

If that were the case I would've said that, or more importantly, I would be holding players like TrueGent or Mario to the same standard as you. I don't however because playstyles aren't always indicative and it's more about what's being siad and the content being produced, and in this case I've been pretty clear in how I don't like yours.

[Dragnalus]

That is again a pretty general statement that anyone could make, including scum. Tell me - are you gonna keep this same opinion up all game until I am dead?

Yes because my opinion is actually a pretty accurate interpretation of what's happened thus far.

Holier than thou.

[Dragnalus]

Btw if somebody says something that doesn't make sense. The logical thing to do is ask questions to try and understand it.

That's what I tried to do with Jordan and he refused to answer.

If I've said stuff that doesn't make sense, why haven't you asked me to explain it?

Seems like somebody who's interested in figuring out people's alignments would have a more inquisitive mindset...

I think you're being very hypocritical, moreso even a bit dense. I've been trying to understand your mindset further this whole time but you haven't really offered me any development in your read, which isn't good. This a main problem I have with you, because when I try to explain myself or tell you why I do something, it either just doesn't register for you or you seem to not really offer a counter-argument. When I told you my reason for not voting because of Mario, you simply responded with "That's how I feel, deal with it". I don't really want to keep someone around who can't at the least be humble enough to respond to me when I give them an answer.

[Dragnalus]

I think arguing with you further will deem to be very pointless, so for the sake of the thread I'm not going to continue to do so. I've already spent enough effort trying to understand you more and I came up with mostly nothing and only answers that include "I really like tunneling" "Deal with it" and taking Cooperative Sheep's opinion about me and trying to spin it into your argument about how I only don't like your playstyle, which, by the way, I already denied and gave a reason as to why. There's nothing further I can gain from this even in the chance you are town, and there's nothing more to discuss as long as you remain to have this mindset. I appreciate Sheep trying to give me a reason why he townreads you but suffice to say unless someone has one better I can't see myself changing my mind either at this current juncture.

[Dragnalus]

I'll display some humbleness so maybe TwoFace will follow suit.

In #83, I responded to his claims about me seemingly not noticing Mario's intention about LaLight, in which I told him I did. His response to me was simply egging on the point that I lied in the interaction I made with mario, as evidenced in the quote I responded to.

In #151, I asked him if he believes LAL is the definitive answer to everything, as my interpretation of his vote is that I was deemed as such therefore scum. He response to that was pretty much the same, and what I got out of it is that somehow someone genuinely believes that LAL is a definitive answer always, which I found to hard to believe...which is why I said that. I'm sorry if I seem a bit sarcastic or maybe even a bit annoyed, but I'm not sure how else I can make myself clear.

in #156 I wanted to know more about his Jord read therefore I offered an alternative to it, given that I stated my opinion on him. The only thing I got out of it is that he disagreed on a fundamental level, and if you really want to make the argument that someone is only giving grief to players based on playstyle, you could say that's TwoFace. His problem with Jord was only that he didn't answer his question therefore he was hiding something, and when I told him that perhaps he should consider a different perspective, the conversation didn't last long and he switched his focus purely back on me. He didn't seem interested in talking furhter about it so that begs the question where his priorities lay. Are me and Jord scum together? Are all people who don't answer questions scum? These are things I can't really answer and only TwoFace can, but the fact remains he really hasn't and I don't believe that is town behavior. If you still believe my argument is based on a playstyle I don't know what else to tell you.

[Dragnalus]

EBWOP: Furthermore, there is inconsistency in his opinion with Jord and how he reads people in particular, moreso because the only thing he seemingly has a problem with Jord is because he didn't answer

his

question, in response to me telling him that others have done the same. He said that town shouldn't ignore questions, on top of just making a completely exaggerated stance about the game that I was really tempted to laugh at. I really couldn't believe when he had the gall to say in his #173 that he has given an 'accurate' representation of the game thus far, as if his word was seemingly law. I don't like this behavior from him because again, it shows an inability to consider alternatives that is not purely based on his playstyle, rather what I feel is scummy. Scum don't really want to explain themselves if they have to, nor really get involved or think about things because they only care to push mislynches or seem like their intentions are town-motivated. In this case, I feel TwoFace would continue to drive the point about me being scum because it would seemingly make him consistent, but the problem lies in the fact his reasons don't make sense and are very shallow. This is furthered by his behavior in general, which isn't really justified. If you want to explain to me why a town would hold standards to some players and not others, by all means do it.

[Dragnalus]

I have NEVER said "that's how I feel, deal with it".

I find that hard to believe, really.

Which part?

All of it. I think you're being petty about your read on me, especially when I clarified why I acted in the way I did towards Mario. I only made that post about saying that I would vote if he answered my questions to goad him into furthering our interaction. Is subtlety completely lost on you? That's a rhetorical question.

Well that's how I feel.

I don't really care about why you did what you did, because the act itself wasn't townie. Your reason for it was weak anyway. I haven't see anything from you yet that makes me think you are town

My job isn't to impress you. It's to lynch scum which is what I'm trying to do.

Sounds like something everyone in this game tries to do, and that includes pretending to do so. This is gonna go anywhere so if you wanna keep tunneling me so be it, I don't really mind it coming down to the wire between us if neither of our opinions change.

Well since I've been scum hunting and you haven't people know who's really pretending.

I'm a tunnelr and I usually get my way so may as well go sign up for another game cause I don't see you making it past day 1

[Dragnalus]

We're at disagreement here and perhaps understanding so again, talking to you about this further isn't really worthwhile. I don't want to make this a show between me and you because I've seen games devolve into this where it's just one-on-one arguments and scum get to sit back and let chaos ensue. I was trying to avoid this but as you said, you are a tunneler and it's just how you feel. The last thing I want to know is in a hypothetical scenario, who are my partners?

[Dragnalus]

He could very well be a ponce, but I think even ponces have humility, yknow? I think that even the most dense town have some sort of reasoning behind their actions or at the least are willing to consider that maybe they are wrong. I am mostly definitely open to this idea because I don't ever assume that my reads are extremely accurate or what I'm saying is pristine. My join date is misleading and I guess in some instances you can call me an alt, but only by how long I've played Mafia. The games I played back in 2012 weren't my best nor did I put a huge effort into them, and I did have some one-offs on another account in 2010.

[Dragnalus]

Do you think the way he is responded to me right now is ponce town behavior Sheep? I'm more interested in that than responding to him cause I clearly told him I wouldn't do so.

[Dragnalus]

I'm a liar again, and I really hate making these type of posts but I'm going to.

TwoFace, let me just say you're gonna get nowhere trying to tell me that all my arguments are about your playstyle. Everyone has a certain playstyle but you cannot say with confidence that anyone who has a problem with you is purely based on your playstyle. Mafia wouldn't be all that great to play if any time you had a read on someone or a disagreement on the way they are presenting themselves, their arguments, or even demeanor, they simply said "It's just my playstyle." A playstyle is not an excuse to deflect accusations, nor is it conductive or providing any insight further as to why you're innocent. I told you before that a lot of things you're saying are things scum could say, and I still stick to that. You'll find you will get a lot more out of people by not feeling you need to defend yourself in the way you play the game and justifying yourself and instead of choosing to be more productive and showing people why your arguments and way you are handling things is good.

I have played with people with inherently anti-town playstyles who I can still manage to townread at the end of the day mostly because of the way they present their arguments. I know someone who I look up to and believe is a great mafia player who sort of acts in the same way you do, but the key difference is likely experience and how convincing he sounds. This is a bit off-topic but I just wanted to include this tidbit because I feel it would be beneficial to you.

And..it seems that TwoFace

still

wants to interact with me...

UNVOTE:

Need to think.

[Dragnalus]

In #83, I responded to his claims about me seemingly not noticing Mario's intention about LaLight, in which I told him I did. His response to me was simply egging on the point that I lied in the interaction I made with mario, as evidenced in the quote I responded to.

In #151, I asked him if he believes LAL is the definitive answer to everything, as my interpretation of his vote is that I was deemed as such therefore scum. He response to that was pretty much the same, and what I got out of it is that somehow someone genuinely believes that LAL is a definitive answer always, which I found to hard to believe...which is why I said that. I'm sorry if I seem a bit sarcastic or maybe even a bit annoyed, but I'm not sure how else I can make myself clear.

in #156 I wanted to know more about his Jord read therefore I offered an alternative to it, given that I stated my opinion on him. The only thing I got out of it is that he disagreed on a fundamental level, and if you really want to make the argument that someone is only giving grief to players based on playstyle, you could say that's TwoFace. His problem with Jord was only that he didn't answer his question therefore he was hiding something, and when I told him that perhaps he should consider a different perspective, the conversation didn't last long and he switched his focus purely back on me. He didn't seem interested in talking furhter about it so that begs the question where his priorities lay. Are me and Jord scum together? Are all people who don't answer questions scum? These are things I can't really answer and only TwoFace can, but the fact remains he really hasn't and I don't believe that is town behavior. If you still believe my argument is based on a playstyle I don't know what else to tell you.

RE: 83 - Your response to my question about not noticing mario's intention didn't answer my question. I basically asked you how you did not notice that mario was clearly trying to get reactions and you pointed me to posts you made about generating discussion. That didn't answer my question.

What I wanted to know is how can you be a person who is interested in looking at reactions not notice that what mario did was clearly a post designed to get reactions.

RE: 151 - I answered your question about LAL honestly so i am not sure what your issue is with that. I don't think townies should ever lie. I certainly never do. I think scum need to lie as little as possible. I am all about honesty and once you prove you are a dishonest person i think you are scum. I am naive in thinking town won't lie, because that is how I play so the moment you lied i knew you were scum.

RE: 156 - You came to Jord's defense. how is that an attempt to learn more about my read. Jord made a comment which casted shade on another player. I asked jord to explain his thoughts why he thought mario's actions were suspicious. he refused to answer not once but twice. i don't really see a townie doing that and I explained that to you. So if anything that exchange should have actually accomplished what you were hoping for. If you still don't understand my scum read on jordan, feel free to ask me more questions.

TwoFace, a lot of your problems can be solved by looking at what I'm saying. This is why repeating myself and trying to interact with you is pointless. I wanted to try and see what people said about our interaction but instead here we are. I decided to unvote because at the least you are trying to respond to me, but don't think that I instantly townread you as of yet. Bolded, again. #43 and #49, I did notice it. From my perspective, it seems like you either have selective hearing or forget about details because you are too caught up in your tunneling to see anything else.

Second point, I am sorry you feel that way. I can't always be Honest Abe nor will I try to be.

Third point, yes, I came to his seemingly "defense" but I offered you to think about it differently. I told you that he perhaps had cold feet. I feel right now if you are town, we simply have dissenting opinions and you don't like that. Do you disagree about my assumption on a fundamental level or is there something more? All you said is that he didn't answer your question therefore he is scummy.

[Dragnalus]

TwoFace, you are currently at 48 posts and I am at 46. I have spent more then half of my postcount trying to argue with you (I had 21 posts before this) , which is far too many posts to do so. Maybe it's my mistake by responding to you, but this isn't productive. Why is it that everytime I say "I don't like repeating myself" I end up doing it? Sucks.

[Dragnalus]

Do you think the way he is responded to me right now is ponce town behavior Sheep?

I don't see it as alignment indicative either way, and could easily see it coming from a town, much less a town Two Face.
I just finished a game with Two Face wherein he death tunneled and got in a sexual organ measuring contest to enough of a degree to have players claim that there was something like 100 pages of useless content in the game.
I'm feeling that same vibe here.
I'm not saying that makes him town, but I am saying it amkes your case on him iffy, and since you have now unvoted I think you agree with me.

I think neither of you like to admit there is any possibility you are wrong - by the time you're debating "deal with it" vs. "that's how I feel" I think I'm assured accurate here.

Two Face is spinning his wheels in a tunnel he's making bigger by the second and you're arguing that non AI stuff is somehow meaningful in any way at all.

I disagree with you that isn't not AI but the fact remains is that I'm not stupid and I know when a push isn't getting anywhere. I could sit here and apply as much pressure as I want and it's very likely that TwoFace would not waiver. This isn't something I want to do nor did I want the thread to turn into, so for the sake of the gamestate I am redacting my push. I will say that some of arguments did make me consider that I was wrong, more importantly your comment on TwoFace playing the same as your last game, which I assume was town. I did not have that prior knowledge and can see why you personally believe he is town because of this, though again, I don't inherently agree with your mentality towards things.

Do you think Mario is holding to his own words too much? What I mean by this is that he's been spending this whole time focusing on who is voting and who isn't, which I feel would have already lost it's charm already.

[Dragnalus]

[quote=danyboy]
@Drag could you clarify why you voted for twoface and have now decied to unvote him?[/quote]

It's in my most recent post.

I'm not following the Ingeel pressure, even if his reasoning isn't all there. This isn't just because he gave me a town pass but moreso I just believe that his laziness/ineffectiveness is not a staple of him being scum. It feels a bit rudimentary to talk in this way, but you could even say it's just a playstyle. I'm not really on the same page when it comes as to how you should read players but I believe understanding tone is important. Mush/Sheep, do you really think Mafia would be making statements like these if they were concerned about being lynched? I am not saying that scum can't play lazy or lurk, but what I got from Ingeel is that he's just a poor man's town who doesn't want to put the effort in, not a scum trying to skate along. I believe that more often than not, most scum will try and posture themselves and look as best as possible, unless somehow Ingeel is known for being lazy as scum and there's some kind of tell in that. Unfortunately, the people who know Ingeel all replaced out so I suppose I'll never know.

That being said, the whole posturing thing I was talking about is something that I bring up because I feel some players are doing it, more importantly Sheep. I don't have enough to warrant a vote nor make a concrete stance as of yet, but consider this a IGMEOY as I believe some of his posts feel very mechanical in how they are made, which is in contrast of Ingeel who I believe is not really thinking hard about what a good town does, therefore seems innocent.

[Dragnalus]

Mulch's recent entrance and postings make me feel more assured in townreading Jord as I did, he was quick to get into the grit of the things and showed no hesitance. Mulch, do you agree with my dissertation on Ingeel and Sheep? More importantly, do you agree that scum posts in a more mechanical fashion than town? Is this how you are reading Mush right now? I can only understand the base of your argument (even if you describe it as just a feeling) and would like you to elaborate further.

[Dragnalus]

My list right now is more of a "Wouldn't lynch" more than a "Would lynch" in terms of how the day should progress.

Right now, I don't believe Mulch, Ingeel and TwoFace are good votes. These are all players who have been given a decent amount of flak and not enough tells in the department of who their partners are. I know that lynching scum is the priority here but I also believe that scum in this instance is more likely in the lurkers/less active, who are enjoying the focus not being on them. There can be an argument made about these players that their content is not worthwhile, but at the least they are much more active and in the forefront of discussion than a majority of people.

I need to hear more from TrueGent's replacement before I make a decision on him (I think that's Alisae) and I don't have enough to warrant a Sheep push. I think Syndesis' content isn't all that stellar either and this is again a situation where I need to wait before I do anything, which is unfortunate. I know Mario will give me giref for not voting but I don't believe in voting unless I have a solid reason to do so, and if he continues to push this whole 'not voting is scummy' deal without doing anything else, I will be less inclined to townread him.

Everyone else not mentioned I haven't developed enough of a read or are sitting at null.

[Dragnalus]

EBWOP: There are also some people I am waiting for responses before I give full judgment.

[Dragnalus]

FTR, my initial LaLight read is dwindling too as he remains to do anything. There's so much of being innocuous that I can take before it feels like a charade.

[Dragnalus]

The only problem I have with you as of now TwoFace is that you keep calling me dragon. it's not Dragonalus, it's just

Drag

nalus.

[Dragnalus]

Mush when you get time respond to my #313.

[Dragnalus]

Give a little bit more than that.

[Dragnalus]

I ISO'd mush and feel content parking my vote here. More elaboration later.
VOTE: Mush

[Dragnalus]

TwoFace, stop making the thread about yourself. Not sure why sheep is entertaining you in the way he is.

[Dragnalus]

If I have to hear more drivel from that slot I may replace out myself.

Bt6, my pressure on ingeel was not anything but wanting to get out of RVS, as I explained before. Not sure why it's a hard concept unless people genuinely believe I thought ingeel pressure was warranted there.

[Dragnalus]

TwoFace, stop making the thread about yourself. Not sure why sheep is entertaining you in the way he is.

You don't sort slots by ignoring them last I checked.
I'll agree that people often claim they'll ignore slots, we've had that happen in this game, but those players are either scum, or play sub-optimally I believe.

i don't want to be grandstanding here so unless you're interested in hearing my philosophy of mafia then you can completely ignore this post, but it does have purpose.

Look at statements like this:

Town can't win that way. It's frustrating.

Why am I the only one who wants to win?

I'm not going to mince words, this has got to be the most belligerent statement I've seen in a long time. I've played a lot of mafia in a span of 7 years, and this just instantly made my blood boil. I consider myself someone who can remain pretty composed but I have to say I was and am pissed to hear someone making statements like this. There is absolutely no excuse for this type of behavior as Mafia is a team game, where town has more success cooperating with each other and working a single function instead of individualizing themselves throughout. To say that only

you

want to win is the biggest slap in the fucking face to anyone who has posted thus far, including me. I agree with sheep in that ignoring slots likely doesn't make a problem go away, but as a member of the town, I have to raise concern here. I have considered in my head trying to respond to your never ending list of complaints but I feel I'd be wasting my breath because you feel dignified in everything you do. That's not good town play nor should it be even rewarded with responses, so either condense your argument on me in a much less cluttered fashion that doesn't waste a single page, or shut up.

Alright, that's out of my system. Moving on.

[Dragnalus]

I did not have that prior knowledge and can see why you personally believe he is town because of this, though again, I don't inherently agree with your mentality towards things.

To help you agree with my mentality, a begining note would be that I'm not town reading him because of that in any way at all and said so in the post you're responding to.

Do you think Mario is holding to his own words too much? What I mean by this is that he's been spending this whole time focusing on who is voting and who isn't, which I feel would have already lost it's charm already.

Mario has been in a rut for some time, and I've been talking to him about it and telling him to de-rut for my last 2-3 interactions with him, so, yes, I absolutely agree with your thought here.

I'm not following the Ingeel pressure, even if his reasoning isn't all there. This isn't just because he gave me a town pass but moreso I just believe that his laziness/ineffectiveness is not a staple of him being scum. It feels a bit rudimentary to talk in this way, but you could even say it's just a playstyle.

Is it a playstyle he has as town only?
Because otherwise it's non-alignment telling.

Mush/Sheep, do you really think Mafia would be making statements like these if they were concerned about being lynched?

Statements like what?
Also, I don't think the slot has ever been at much risk for a lynch, so I don't really believe he, as a player, would ever have felt much pressure.

That being said, the whole posturing thing I was talking about is something that I bring up because I feel some players are doing it, more importantly Sheep. I don't have enough to warrant a vote nor make a concrete stance as of yet, but consider this a IGMEOY as I believe some of his posts feel very mechanical in how they are made, which is in contrast of Ingeel who I believe is not really thinking hard about what a good town does, therefore seems innocent.

I agree, I'm thinking about what I type

1) It doesn't matter at this point because I have a very hard time believing scum would play in the fashion he is right now, or maybe I'm just indifferent to this type of play because even talking to the guy makes put him go into full defense.

2) He finally wised up and has been posting in a regular fashion but I'm not sure if I'm ready to call it an improvement that will talk about more after I'm done responding to you.

3/4) My statements about Ingeel are not specific to him, rather general to what I feel is possible town behavior. I think scum would be trying a bit harder and think more about the arguments they're making. I'm not going to be the sole defender of Ingeel but I think there is much more interesting wagons out there and people to push. If he continues to be lazy I will consider changing my mind about him, but right now he is a non-issue.

[Dragnalus]

Going to breakdown my mindset on slots.

Red - Scum
Orange = Lean scum
Yellow = Null
Green = Town
Light Green = Lean town


1.

Mush

Spoiler:

This is a slot that didn't really pique my interest until recently and the general feeling I get from him is a presence that wants to be safe. Mush's posts are very generalized and aren't really that full of substance. The pushes he has made aren't very strong and there is a lack of conviction in his words. Mush spends a lot of time speaking of uncertainty or very loosely to the point where a lot of his posts feel incomplete. They're not explicitly hard to follow but it raises the question why some of them exist. A further example made is his #303 in which he chimed in about something but never had it go anywhere. I think that his push on LaLight is decent so I may retract these thoughts if Lalight is scum, and my read on Mush is more-so independent than anything.

2.

MarioManiac4

Spoiler:

I don't really know where to start with Mario and I've been teetering about him for a while. I think he's been taking far too much time defending himself and the steps he's made after his whole debauchery about votes isn't impressive. I mentioned to Sheep how I felt it was losing it's charm but what's more impressive is how willing Mario was to drop it completely. Granted, people try different things all the time in order illicit responses, but why spend all that time building yourself as a proprietor of voting if it wasn't going to go anywhere in terms of scumhunting? There was seemingly no point to it all and I have retracted my feeling on early interaction because of this. I think Mario felt convicted to double-down but then dropped it because he started to get suspicion because of it, which doesn't look good. This is furthered by a generally confusing priority from him such as #368 where he votes lalight and says he doesn't have many scumreads, and then hops off based on a single response from LaLight in #372. This doesn't make sense to me because in #146, he had LaLight as his strongest scumread and seemed to have enough to put players in brackets, though there isn't much to show as far why they are in there. Even now, Mario doesn't make a lot of sense to me and his explanations in #439 have a lot left to be desired, as I don't believe how long he continued to rant about votes was merely for RVS purposes, given he was still doing it by the time I would consider it over with.

3.

Cooperative Sheep

Spoiler:

At a first glance, there's a lot to like about this slot, though I don't know if it's good enough. CooperativeSheep seems reasonable in one regard yet also has a certain vibe in his posts that bother me. Based on purely on what he's done, he spends a lot of time talking

at

people instead of talking

with

them, which isn't something I'm too impressed by. I don't think his reasoning on Ingeel was all that great and I am generally cautious of posts like #206 where sheep signals to vote with him without doing the dirty work, if that makes sense. Overall it feels like he is taking a bystander position instead of getting fully involved, and I'm not going to count his interaction with TwoFace because I thought it wasn't beneficial. I need to see more grit from this slot.

4.

Mulch

Spoiler:

Oddly enough, I don't have much to say about Mulch that hasn't already been said. I think he's a very eager town who isn't afraid to make stances even if it could invoke criticism, which I like. I believe that scum right now in the chance of LaLight being town would be more favored to push his slot given it hasn't been very strong and has been generating a lot of controversy, but instead Mulch continues to do his own thing and is very genuine about his stances. I agree with Mush's assumption about him in full.

5.

LaLight

Spoiler:

This is a slot that I'm very interested in pushing as I believe he has a lot of connections to him. I originally liked his first impressions but they've faded over time. LaLight's recent postings come off as uppity and quick to jump to conclusions, and not really getting involved. I think that his #348 is especially telling in this sense because I don't believe that LaLight would come after his own partner in the fashion he did. This is the second reason why I am advocating his lynch at this point, as it would clear up Mush more in my head; I don't think Mush/LaLight are a team.

6.

iDanyBoy

Spoiler:

I'm not really paying attention to this slot tbh. I feel like this is someone that will make their alignment evident over time and will spend most of the day playing catch-up and twenty questions, and for that reason I don't believe he's a good push as of now. I'd have to say if I put him on a town-scum scale he'd definitely be the most in the middle as I want to give him a chance to get his footing.

7.

Alisae/TrueGent

Spoiler:

This is again another slot that hasn't really tickled my priorities, though I do like the Mario pressure just for common interests. I'd like to see what he thinks about LaLight and other slots in more detail before I decide where to put him, but right now I can't see him being a lynch possibility nor someone I want gone.

8.

Ingeel

[/color]

Spoiler:

Everything I've said about this slot I still hold to. I think this is a very easy slot to push and I feel a lot of the people coming at him are opportunistic just in the fact he has time constraints. Even when I present alternatives, people are really focused on the fact he has no scum-reads, but at the least he has attempted to get himself out there. I hold him to the same standard of others and I won't take inactivity lack of progress of reads for much longer, but I do not think he is the play today.

9.

Syndesis

Spoiler:

This is again a slot I feel will resolve itself over time, so my comments are very limited. I don't know how to feel about her saying that nothing is sticking, but perhaps that will change eventually. Nothing worthwhile to say.

I think that summarizes everything. Right now I am willing to work with Mush on lynching LaLight, however I do forewarn him that I will likely come for his head in the event that he's town.

Vote: LaLight

If you want something further explained, ask me.

[Dragnalus]

I forgot about TwoFace but I've already talked about him enough. Likely VI.

tl;dr

Town
Mulch
TwoFace
Ingeel
Alisae
iDanyBoy
Syndesis
BTD6
IAI
Cooperative Sheep
Mush
MarioManiac4
LaLight
Scum

[Dragnalus]

Why would I not work with Mush? I think that LaLight/Him aren't aligned but both have the potential to be scum.

[Dragnalus]

LaLight is scummier, ergo, he takes priority. If LaLight is town I will probably go to my 2nd options, which include mush.

[Dragnalus]

[quote=Alisae]If your other scumreads have bigger wagons you should support them instead of just going after something because you're afraid you won't catch it. See Titus' article on Town Cohesion.[/quote]

It's an intriguing article, but before I possibly switch my vote to MM4, what makes him a better option than LaLight?

[Dragnalus]

Really? I felt that MM4's vote on LaLight is more telling in a scum perspective because it felt like he was trying to allocate fake pressure on a partner as a means of distancing, though it never went anywhere. I also don't get why LaLight never really bothered with it either but perhaps LaLight's scum style plays in part with that. Maybe it could be even said that MM4 lied about his convictions if #36, #37 are telling in that category. Someone slightly below null does not belong in the lowest scum bracket, but what's even further confusing is this post statement:

#58

I didn't really have a firm stance on lalight

#146

{MM4}
{Syndesis, TwoFace}
{TrueGent, mush}
{noseacaballo, Cooperative Sheep, I Am Innocent, Ingeel, iDanyBoy, Dragnalus}
{Jordarrian,

LaLight

}

#341

what caused me to try to wagon lalight on page 2 was because I wanted to get out of rvs early- when that goes on too long I can get disengaged with the game and it helps meh wincon because we can scumhunt more

One of these things is not like the other.

He's most likely scum but there's something sinister about how he is wording things and putting people in pools, especially LaLight. If you read his arguments prior to this, he had placed me scummier than LaLight and said that we could possibly be partners etc. The fact is that you cannot say something is 'slightly below null' and then put them as Scum #2 in your pool. There is also a disconnect where MM4 never seemed to bother with pursuing his LaLight read further.

I will say however his reapplied vote to LaLight is awful and then immediate jump off of him based on a single response, but I think it's telling. I don't know, entertain the idea with me for a minute and I will promptly switch my vote after.

[Dragnalus]

I thought about that position but I suppose what is giving me pause is that LaLight is individually scummy for his own reasons. Oh well, it's a moot point for now.

Vote: MarioManiac4

[Dragnalus]

Before you do that you talk more about the assessments you made that you were alluding to in your recent post.

[Dragnalus]

Your #495.

[Dragnalus]

MM4 respond to my #513. I need to understand your play more in that instance.

[Dragnalus]

@Mod I have to announce V/LA for the upcoming week up until thursday.

[Dragnalus]

Just because I'm V/LA doesn't mean I'm not keeping tabs on the thread or looking at the progression of the thread, all it means is that I don't have the same amount of time to commit to it.

[Dragnalus]

This game needs less of the same people talking to themselves.

[Dragnalus]

I don't think this circular discussion being policed by you is getting us anywhere, therefore I've made a conscious decision to not really get involved. The thing that is asked of me is basically what Sheep wanted and responding to me but hearing myself regurgitate over and over again isn't exactly the greatest way for a D1 to happen. I could sit here and produce a bunch of unending questions such as "Why does Alisae seemingly have such strong reads over things that should only be taken as face value" or "Why is Ingeel is perpetual catch-up mode" or "Why does Sheep playing strictly from the armchair" and "Why did Mulch suddenly think me and Mario were scum together without substantiating", but these answers would likely still have a lot left to be desired from the people I would ask them to.

[Dragnalus]

Meanwhile the role PM i received was of town yet I am being told by you constantly how everything and anything I do is scum behavior. Maybe I should just accept that your standards of town outweigh anything I want to say and people can continue to let this game fall to the wayside.

[Dragnalus]

A lot of people (myself included) are discouraged to post because you keep complaining about activity levels. It's day one, not a lot is gonna happen because a majority of us are going off base impressions and no information. I think the game just needs a good flip and I'm willing to compromise on any inactive at this point.

There's a lack of interest because nobody is providing interesting cases or content also.

As it stands, I still don't really think Mario is in the clear and none of my reads have really changed, maybe that's because of the two problems that I highlighted but I digress.

[Dragnalus]

Well, my problem with that lies in the fact I don't like LaLight all too much.

[Dragnalus]

There's just not a lot of direction or cohesion, but I think the game can definitely salvage itself. I'll probably re-read and then decide if I think Ingeel has been keeping up on why I townread him in the first place, amongst other things.

Unvote

[Dragnalus]

You learn that you mislynched town and gave scum a free pass to lurk.

[Dragnalus]

What are you talking about? I dropped a reads list prior to that V/LA and explained my reasoning for most slots. The fact is that again, not much of that has changed.

[Dragnalus]

I'm VT. I don't understand people bellyaching about this game.

[Dragnalus]

I'm still town regardless of the decision. I think you are playing this backwards. Look into my reads and don't let lurkers keep doing their thing. Someone put a muzzle on TwoFace while you're at it.

[Dragnalus]

Very disappointing this happened because TwoFace is too prideful to reconsider and Mulch things I am partnered with Mario somehow, but in a way I'm sort of glad I won't have to deal with the ensuing headache this game will be. Good luck.

[Dragnalus]

Just to be explicitly clear, I was and am town. Anyone saying I'm scum is posturing or an idiot at this point. I might as well triple post at this rate.

[Dragnalus]

It's alright, I honestly don't think this game is/was too bad. Town can still salvage themselves and there just needs a lot more enthusiasm in general without it being dictated by a certain someone. If anything the relatively low post-count should make it easier to re-read.

[Dragnalus]

Regardless what drag flips, your 180 still makes no sense.

I am flipping town you ignoramus. Accept the fact that you were wrong.

*ahem*

Sorry.

[Dragnalus]

That made me laugh but it's still wrong.