WWF Mafia: Royal Rumble (GAME OVER)

[Leonshade]

I will say that I always get paranoid of people who go to great lengths to explain their real life reasons for not being active. Though I know it's usually just personality.

[Leonshade]

I'm Iron Sheik, survivor. Any last questions you want me to answer?

Could you explain how your wincon is worded in a little more detail?

I win if I am alive when the game ends, and I can win with any faction. Standard survivor deal.

Was trying to figure out whether a survivor even makes sense in this setup. Town wincon is pretty vague, I guess a survivor could be a part of "all you".

50/50 chance you're telling the truth. I won't hammer you right now, and I think I want Tywin more than a probable survivor. Though it's not worth the risk of taking you to the endgame, so even if you don't get lynched today, you probably won't make it to the endgame unless we keep lynching scum.

[MariaR]

I guess a survivor claim would explain the no fucks pep gives about this game although I do not trust it what so ever.

[mastina]

Why do you Sr jiffy? Right now I feel like you're trying to pocket/protect me as mafia.

This is actually a really really really good post.
I just like everything about it.
Now.
I townread MariaR.
But.
I just don't think that gerry if mafia goes on the offensive like this.

This train of thought is self-sabotaging if scum.
As town, however, it makes perfect sense. gerry is pursuing someone NOT in the spotlight: attacking MariaR is in no way shape nor form an easy thing to do. Furthermore, the actual reasoning given actually is good. I disagree with the conclusion--but I understand how gerry arrived at this process. (Fuck, just think about my early gripe with Titus; it's basically the same thing.)

[MariaR]

Hey everyone I just w ant to know how many scumteams do you think it is in total? 5 6 7? ( 10 12 14) I've been doing a bit of numbers and partner work in my head but I don't feel the need to share it atm.

[mastina]

It's at this point I should also mention: similar to some of the other back-and-forths we've had (e.g. Not Chara-Firescreamer), I really really really think the KMD-gerry exchange was two town players hashing their thoughts out. The magic of talking, as it were. Now for the sake of brevity (I'm kinda in a time crunch trying to get as close to caught up as quickly as possible), I'm not going to dump onto you the full theory behind that (even though it'd help), but basically, the driving idea behind that is that I fully, firmly believe that there is a process where two people just talk to each other, and through this process, come to have an understanding of each other. And for me, as a third party observer, that's what I'm reading in the gerry-KMD exchange.

I'm not seeing KMD trying to manipulate gerry; I'm not seeing KMD trying to blindly lynch gerry; I'm not seeing KMD trying to turn the whole town against gerry; I'm seeing KMD be open and honest about his process, and explaining his issues fully and entirely. I get them, I follow them, and I empathize with them.

I'm not seeing gerry trying to manipulate KMD; I'm not seeing gerry trying to blindly sheep KMD; I'm not seeing gerry trying to dismiss KMD. I'm seeing gerry genuinely lack full understanding of KMD's stance, explaining his own stance, and trying to work things out, prod out the alignment of the player in question.

Thus, the magic of talking. I just don't see either party in this exchange having an agenda. Well, sort-of. I do consider in a sense "trying to accurately get a grip on players" to be a TYPE of agenda, and sure they've shown that, but that's a TOWN agenda. I don't see a scum agenda. Not a hint of one in either.

[Titus]

I see no bad wagons here

You mean how mastina, chickadee,and kmd get wagoned but never sticks?

How is that relevant with scum teams of 2?

Have you asked yourself why these wagons fail? If there's really a skittering of scumteams, they'd want to make sure there's certain groups that protect them. Chickadee continuing to FoS no one makes her an excellent target (I'm not counting the OMGUS), mastina's garbage catchup and perpetual votepark screams to scum ("Keep me and Titus in the game and you'll never get my vote. It'll always be on Titus."), kmd's omgus style posting and completely and total lack of paranoia on mastina is also suspect.

Yet, counterwagons keep coming up.

[Titus]

I'm Iron Sheik, survivor. Any last questions you want me to answer?

Could you explain how your wincon is worded in a little more detail?

I win if I am alive when the game ends, and I can win with any faction. Standard survivor deal.

Was trying to figure out whether a survivor even makes sense in this setup. Town wincon is pretty vague, I guess a survivor could be a part of "all you".

50/50 chance you're telling the truth. I won't hammer you right now, and I think I want Tywin more than a probable survivor. Though it's not worth the risk of taking you to the endgame, so even if you don't get lynched today, you probably won't make it to the endgame unless we keep lynching scum.

and not mastina because?

[mastina]

Titus is mafia for not hugging me yet this game btw.

You jest, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut......

[Titus]

I'm not seeing KMD trying to manipulate gerry; I'm not seeing KMD trying to blindly lynch gerry; I'm not seeing KMD trying to turn the whole town against gerry; I'm seeing KMD be open and honest about his process, and explaining his issues fully and entirely. I get them, I follow them, and I empathize with them.

If KMD scumreads Gerry, KMD should be trying to get the town to turn against Gerry as he's widely and universally townread. KMD isn't doing much explaining of all, but rather he's shading Gerry.

Of course, you're like a broken record defending KMD at this point, dismissing any points brought against them.

[mastina]

I'm confused in the first part it seems like you're saying "I know you're bad so it's why I'm not lynching you" but in the second part it's like "I know you're that good"

(Hint it's because she's scum trying to pocket you.)

[MariaR]

I see no bad wagons here

You mean how mastina, chickadee,and kmd get wagoned but never sticks?

How is that relevant with scum teams of 2?

Have you asked yourself why these wagons fail? If there's really a skittering of scumteams, they'd want to make sure there's certain groups that protect them. Chickadee continuing to FoS no one makes her an excellent target (I'm not counting the OMGUS), mastina's garbage catchup and perpetual votepark screams to scum ("Keep me and Titus in the game and you'll never get my vote. It'll always be on Titus."), kmd's omgus style posting and completely and total lack of paranoia on mastina is also suspect.

Yet, counterwagons keep coming up.

Doesn't the low hanging fruit theory go out the window with a game like this people are still trying to scumhunt there are a ton of scum teams so they have to make reads and scumhunt too but if they want to protect them they have to make up bs townreads or scumread them but not vote. Did you ever think that they'd try to change up their play if it was so blatantly scummy?

[mastina]

If we have that many scum though, why static game?

You and I have very different definitions of static given every day ended relatively quickly: far from static.

[Titus]

I see no bad wagons here

You mean how mastina, chickadee,and kmd get wagoned but never sticks?

How is that relevant with scum teams of 2?

Have you asked yourself why these wagons fail? If there's really a skittering of scumteams, they'd want to make sure there's certain groups that protect them. Chickadee continuing to FoS no one makes her an excellent target (I'm not counting the OMGUS), mastina's garbage catchup and perpetual votepark screams to scum ("Keep me and Titus in the game and you'll never get my vote. It'll always be on Titus."), kmd's omgus style posting and completely and total lack of paranoia on mastina is also suspect.

Yet, counterwagons keep coming up.

Doesn't the low hanging fruit theory go out the window with a game like this people are still trying to scumhunt there are a ton of scum teams so they have to make reads and scumhunt too but if they want to protect them they have to make up bs townreads or scumread them but not vote. Did you ever think that they'd try to change up their play if it was so blatantly scummy?

Can you change the "theys" in this post? Are you referring to my suspects or the players not voting them?

[MariaR]

@MOD Can we get some prods I feel like people need prods sorry if mistaken

I don't know I've said this many times but I feel like a select few people are playing this game and when I go check the list of alive people this doesn't feel like a 17 player game it feels like a 9 or 10 person game I feel like we have a lot of scum who are making 1 post or 2 posts every other day and we need to weed them out or at least get more people active I could be bias mostly because It's upsetting to me that so little people are doing much but I think that's the case (scum in lurkers) Thoughts?

[Titus]

@MOD Can we get some prods I feel like people need prods sorry if mistaken

I don't know I've said this many times but I feel like a select few people are playing this game and when I go check the list of alive people this doesn't feel like a 17 player game it feels like a 9 or 10 person game I feel like we have a lot of scum who are making 1 post or 2 posts every other day and we need to weed them out or at least get more people active I could be bias mostly because It's upsetting to me that so little people are doing much but I think that's the case (scum in lurkers) Thoughts?

It's possible. I really think this is a three to four active player game. Then there's the mastina/kmd circle jerk, chickadee active lurking, lurkers.

You, me, Tywin, gerry are like the ones I feel really good about. Maybe gamma. Most of the game I hardly remember their posting at all. It's like they directly avoid engaging the game. With the amount of lurkers that benefit from keeping my scumreads alive, it makes it hard to lynch her. Then, if they're not on a wagon, they'll never get vigged.

I'm going to have to see who the hell hasn't been on wagons aren't I?

[MariaR]

I see no bad wagons here

You mean how mastina, chickadee,and kmd get wagoned but never sticks?

How is that relevant with scum teams of 2?

Have you asked yourself why these wagons fail? If there's really a skittering of scumteams, they'd want to make sure there's certain groups that protect them. Chickadee continuing to FoS no one makes her an excellent target (I'm not counting the OMGUS), mastina's garbage catchup and perpetual votepark screams to scum ("Keep me and Titus in the game and you'll never get my vote. It'll always be on Titus."), kmd's omgus style posting and completely and total lack of paranoia on mastina is also suspect.

Yet, counterwagons keep coming up.

Doesn't the low hanging fruit theory go out the window with a game like this people are still trying to scumhunt there are a ton of scum teams so they have to make reads and scumhunt too but if they want to protect them they have to make up bs townreads or scumread them but not vote. Did you ever think that they'd try to change up their play if it was so blatantly scummy?

Can you change the "theys" in this post? Are you referring to my suspects or the players not voting them?

Mostly anyone really I was just talking about scum (and your suspects) in a game like this where town has a vengeful land it's a scum team of 2 you're trying to look towny as scum now that's a "no shit maria" but think about it deeper then that I don't see why people like mastina would openly attack you and keep going for you I think she really does think you're scum and wants you lynched now that doesn't really matter but it's the way she's doing it that's towny to me when I look at her play at face value It looks ew but I don't see why scum her just says "I'ma vote one person until it sticks" I think she'd move to other places

[mastina]

How do we even KNOW that teams are all pairs? All that's flipped are red, yellow mafia and gamma/massive third party (unaligned). I don't even know how gamma was a pair with bins, because his role on didn't say that, he didn't flip mafia, and he was a special third party player.

Objectively, this post is not wrong.

When I'm in a better position (prolly more caught up), I'll go into a better explanation of my viewpoint, but basically I want to lay out in a post from least-likely to most-likely what ALL possible scumteam compositions are (among them: Kuroi lied and the teams we have flipped aren't pairs; odd number of total scum; 14 total scum), but to put it in simplest terms: this is in fact possible.

However.
Tywin is expressing the possibility in the scummiest-as-fuck way possible. This is defensive, this is fearmongering, this is all kinds of manipulative where he casts shade on the mod (spoiler alert: in my scumteam compositions, Kuroi lying is at or near the top of the list in terms of least-likely) and is just a skeevy-as-fuck post.

It's not productive. It doesn't further the gamestate. All it does is serve as a distraction.
There's going into things as a thought exercise.
There's going into things with a clear idea of what can be gained from the theorizing.
But this was neither. This was going into the idea with the intention of throwing people off the setup.

Which is especially likely because setup spec is VERY HEAVILY CONDEMNING for Tywin.
See also: each scumteam has had paired day-powers which are NOT vengekills (which is the universal town day power); Tywin's slot had a day power; as a logical consequence of these two, Tywin is confscum.

[Titus]

I see no bad wagons here

You mean how mastina, chickadee,and kmd get wagoned but never sticks?

How is that relevant with scum teams of 2?

Have you asked yourself why these wagons fail? If there's really a skittering of scumteams, they'd want to make sure there's certain groups that protect them. Chickadee continuing to FoS no one makes her an excellent target (I'm not counting the OMGUS), mastina's garbage catchup and perpetual votepark screams to scum ("Keep me and Titus in the game and you'll never get my vote. It'll always be on Titus."), kmd's omgus style posting and completely and total lack of paranoia on mastina is also suspect.

Yet, counterwagons keep coming up.

Doesn't the low hanging fruit theory go out the window with a game like this people are still trying to scumhunt there are a ton of scum teams so they have to make reads and scumhunt too but if they want to protect them they have to make up bs townreads or scumread them but not vote. Did you ever think that they'd try to change up their play if it was so blatantly scummy?

Can you change the "theys" in this post? Are you referring to my suspects or the players not voting them?

Mostly anyone really I was just talking about scum (and your suspects) in a game like this where town has a vengeful land it's a scum team of 2 you're trying to look towny as scum now that's a "no shit maria" but think about it deeper then that I don't see why people like mastina would openly attack you and keep going for you I think she really does think you're scum and wants you lynched now that doesn't really matter but it's the way she's doing it that's towny to me when I look at her play at face value It looks ew but I don't see why scum her just says "I'ma vote one person until it sticks" I think she'd move to other places

It's exactly what I'd do as scum.
Votepark one person. ---> Not a threat to scum.
Be behind. ---> Not a threat to scum.
Do the bare minimum to be perceived as genuine and not a threat to town. --> Unlikely to get venged.

As long as mastina knows I'm town and unlikely to get lynched, it's a solid recipe for pissing off no one and coasting.

The look townie setup you have leaves mastina open for a night kill.

[MariaR]

I will admit I'm not as confident on my Tywin sr as I was before because every time I've seen him rage like that it's been town I've seen him rage before as scum but it wasn't as harsh as the one he was doing now I think my tr on mastina was at first a "wow you're putting in so much effort town read for you!" (that's a HUGE weakness of mine) but I like her catch up and it feels really well thought out I've never been sus of KMD at all we seem to be on the same wavelengh although I don't know why people sr them and would like to know more then again I have no idea why people tr me either I don't really think I'm doing much I'm just talking to people but blah w/e I think it could be worth a bit to go back and re read the day 2 reactions to the double scum flip because scum must've had an idea there were a lot of scum teams and their reaction could be more faked then a town one

[MariaR]

I see no bad wagons here

You mean how mastina, chickadee,and kmd get wagoned but never sticks?

How is that relevant with scum teams of 2?

Have you asked yourself why these wagons fail? If there's really a skittering of scumteams, they'd want to make sure there's certain groups that protect them. Chickadee continuing to FoS no one makes her an excellent target (I'm not counting the OMGUS), mastina's garbage catchup and perpetual votepark screams to scum ("Keep me and Titus in the game and you'll never get my vote. It'll always be on Titus."), kmd's omgus style posting and completely and total lack of paranoia on mastina is also suspect.

Yet, counterwagons keep coming up.

Doesn't the low hanging fruit theory go out the window with a game like this people are still trying to scumhunt there are a ton of scum teams so they have to make reads and scumhunt too but if they want to protect them they have to make up bs townreads or scumread them but not vote. Did you ever think that they'd try to change up their play if it was so blatantly scummy?

Can you change the "theys" in this post? Are you referring to my suspects or the players not voting them?

Mostly anyone really I was just talking about scum (and your suspects) in a game like this where town has a vengeful land it's a scum team of 2 you're trying to look towny as scum now that's a "no shit maria" but think about it deeper then that I don't see why people like mastina would openly attack you and keep going for you I think she really does think you're scum and wants you lynched now that doesn't really matter but it's the way she's doing it that's towny to me when I look at her play at face value It looks ew but I don't see why scum her just says "I'ma vote one person until it sticks" I think she'd move to other places

It's exactly what I'd do as scum.
Votepark one person. ---> Not a threat to scum.
Be behind. ---> Not a threat to scum.
Do the bare minimum to be perceived as genuine and not a threat to town. --> Unlikely to get venged.

As long as mastina knows I'm town and unlikely to get lynched, it's a solid recipe for pissing off no one and coasting.

The look townie setup you have leaves mastina open for a night kill.

Wouldn't that be risky if you were scum? Scum have a nk so if she rly was that big a threat it risks a NK on her

[MariaR]

I would like mastina to go more into her KMD tr I think she tr's them because of game solving but scum would do that too so I don't get why the tr is THAT strong?

[MariaR]

Town: Kmd4390 PeregrineV
Strong Town lean: FireScreamer Titus Mastina
Town lean: DodgeTheSaint Leonshade
Null/Sort: Gerryoat McMenno Almost50
Scum lean: Tywin Lannister Chickadee Lil Uzi Vert
Strong Scum lean: Peptobislawl
Scum: Majiffy

and then we have massive the 3p who won

[KuroiXHF]

I have actually prodded the only one in prod range right now.

[KuroiXHF]

I'm also doing a vote count tonight. Some may be in prod range by then depending on when I do that.