Mini 1916: Buttersnap Shitfuckery (Game over, Town win!)

[Vegito]

But the significant difference between Ari and other lurker lynches is that he has an incredibly obvious scum/town meta in that he plays as town but doesn't play as scum and hasn't been playing here. I've had games where I've played against town Ari and he's been lurking but both times I've correctly identified that he was town and stepped off his wagon before the lynch; neither time has he so obviously had time to post but then just decided not to.

[Belisarius]

Official Vote Count 1.22 unfucked version

(L-2)

Piggygal15: (4)

Aristophanes, Prism, Almost Chara, Leonshade

(L-2)

Aristophanes: (4)

Socrates, Rautherdir, Vegito, Shadoweh

Rautherdir: (1)

Chickadee

Shadoweh: (1)

Chimchar

Prism: (1)

Jesus Christ

Not Voting:

Piggygal15

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2017-06-12 15:05:00)

Mod Notes:

None

[Shadoweh]

See, unlike you I actually live to Day 3 because I'm not a bullet-sponge, so I'm more used to it.

If Ari's meta is barely posting then he's doing a great job of it, his posts didn't seem to have much in them when I did an iso to see what he was doing in the first place.
I'm pretty sure despite my misgivings I'd prefer him over Piggygal who I think is on a content upswing (even if I agree a DD vote was nonsense, it's the kind of vote that gets you in trouble.)

Mod didn't see me switch? Probably because I used short form.

##Vote: Aristophanes

[Rautherdir]

I think Beli uses a program.
Ooh... We have competing wagons.

Piggy, who do you think is scum right now?

[Belisarius]

I do use a program to format the VC, but I put the votes in manually using dropdown menus, so the error remains mine

[Aristophanes]

OMG Why is DD dead

I'm here, catching up now

[Aristophanes]

Okay, reading up from schadd's death because it's a reasonable start point.

Prism and Leon were faking restrictions? That's a bit shifty. Why pretend to have a restriction??
This feels like a way to get easy towncred, and they now have to backtrack because modkills are legit for restriction breaks apparently!
I'd say one of them is probably scum for it. I'll have to Iso them once I'm caught up to see which.

I had thought they were a town indicator, and was doubting that until this moment. Any serious post restriction claims are prolly town though. To auto-kill a scum member seems unbalanced in general.

Don't write it off yet. That would also make scum stick out pretty badly if none of them had post restrictions. It would basically make POE way too easy.

It looks like only the one was legit, so my point above stands. I still hold that it's unlikely any scum have one because if it is something that can immediately end a player's life in the game, scum aren't likely to have a legit one. I could see someone faking one though, thus my thoughts on Prism and Leon.

Piggy's "Wagon Analysis" in 554 sucks!
She says it's a great way to catch scum, then lists all the wagon components as her strongest townreads. She doesn't look at the votes on the wagon or the reasons, just the players overall (not wagon analysis!). The stances are off too, as they all end up strong town despite the reasons being a lot more grey. Basically says Shadoweh is a gut meta read despite some weird posts, Vegito is town because...gut that's based on them both being good players? Is this even a stance?? Like "You're both good enough to fool me, but I town read you anyway" is such a cop out stance! Leon read is just gut based on him not having anything scummy in his posts. I get that, it's fine, but it's stated very oddly to make it could like there's more to it. Then rates them 2.3/10 Scum (so, town) despite saying they're a possible Third Party (for no reason at all) literally a sentence before!
These reads all feel fake and appeasy and the 3P callout is just weird.

DD getting schadd's PR (and probably his entire role since the role's name was Post-Restricted Townie) seems fake af to me, but alright, not sure why y'all are just going along and believing that. I'll believe it when DD slips and also gets modkilled, it just seems like an opportunistic scum play to me.

This seems like they're pushing the read because they've committed to it and don't want to change it. DD inheriting the post restriction was very town indicative and Piggy ignored this, going as far at to wish for a Modkill to confirm them town. That's absolutely not a town thing to wish for!

Their other DD arguments weren't very good or deep, and the pre-flip associative they pushed on Socrates and DD was just bad.

Continuing to read up.

[PiggyGal15]

We just had a town flip and no one is doing any sort of wagon analysis? Is that a thing of the past? Because imo wagon analysis is life and gets all the scums, but no one is even mentioning it like ???

that's raising my suspicions on everyone who has posted since schadd was killed.

This is bad, especially the bolded.

Why? Because I think that when people ignore a town flip without commenting on potential analysis they're essentially saying they don't care that a townie has died? That to me, it signals that they're going to let a towns death be for nothing and continue on like it didn't happen? When I'm town I like to utilize a town flip as much as possible so that even tho scum is now one step closer to winning town still has the upper hand. Curious to know why you'd think otherwise?

I'm more inclined to agree with Math than nancy on Piggygal, it looked like they wanted DD lynched more than seriously trying to gamesolve in that post. I don't feel good about her play in general, I don't see true scumhunting behind her play, especially that one post with "wagon analysis" felt more like her putting on a show of scumhunting than any real analysis.

Lolol, this is why I don't do D1; I don't do anything and get called scum, I try to scumhunt and get called scum, D1 is literally my arch-nemesis

...Piggygal who I think is on a content upswing (even if I agree a DD vote was nonsense, it's the kind of vote that gets you in trouble.)

I can't believe this is actually the first time we've played D1 together, usually one of us gets replaced in just after it when I'm actually good and useful

Your DD vote is garbage though. Also I didn't read a single thing about your DD case but if you'd like to condense it to bulletpoints I might maybe skim that.

My D1 votes are always garbage, one just has to accept it and wait till D3 when things get good
Essentially it was them flipfloping a lot and the fact that as soon as schadd died, they did

exactly

what I would have done if I was scum; fake that the PR was now mine and call myself conf-town.

Piggy, who do you think is scum right now?

I think this post is long enough already I'll get to it in my next one!

[Almost Chara]

Doggon dammit! Aris is TOWN. (Just about time you towned it up, bro. I was starting to have my doubts)
On second thoughts, I'll degrade you to Town Lean for now. I'm waiting for another signal to be 100% sure.

~A50

[Aristophanes]

Don't think that Prism is faking his post restriction. Dueling post restrictions is just

too

perfect and Beli is the kind of shithead who would be stricter about one post restriction than he was about another, particularly if one was inheritable and the other wasn't. I don't see motive for Prism to fake dueling post restrictions as scum.

Socrates, I didn't feel good about Aristophanes before he went on vacation and don't really like his posting since his return. I don't think this is as obvious as his play in Questionable Content, but he's almost managed to get through the entire day without doing anything and so he's probably just scum here

Vote: Aristophanes

Yeah yeah
I hadn't gotten a chance to give this game the time it needed. I'm doing that now!
Anyone familiar with my meta (I'm looking at you, Nacho) should know I simply can't do this as scum. Nice try though! Let's lynch actual scum, alright?

I'm not particularly worried about the crazy people although they will make awkward long-term roommates if we both stay live, so yay.

What do you think about Almost Chara? I'm realizing a general town-lean towards Vegito/Chick/DD/Leon/Sock/ACish? is probably way too many and they're the one that makes me wonder the most out of that crowd. Maybe that's just too much preemptive paranoia though. I hadn't acknowledged Ari as a player in this game in my head, but I feel that way about Ari, AC and Rauth combined.

</3

I mean, I know I haven't done much, but this just hurts!

Okay, so now we know, whoever gets it next is almost definitely actually conf-town. At least we get that consolation in exchange for probably losing another townie.

Nah there could be a scum backup. In fact you could be scum for saying it knowing that you have a fucking scum backup.

Beli I imagine is an even worse hydra partner than me, sadly I didn't get to spend more time insulting him

This is possible actually. I need to look into Rauth a little more but his posts have an odd feel to them and I know nancy and Math are both quite good so I want to push on their dying read! <3 you nancy! So sad you got yourself killed so soon

Also, if Prism says they are faking, I will believe they are faking.

So you, with the post restriction that you Totally for Sure don't have, can't see why Prism saying "Beli who I would lick the butt of every day did not give me a post restriction of course not I just love his butt that much" might not be truthful?

Yeah, I just realized with Prism's more recent posts that it's prolly a legit restriction and they prolly just can't say that! Rauth not getting this somehow is another thing that pings me, as it shown disengagement with something they should totally get, especially if they have a restriction they also are not allowed to talk about. I'd forgotten about this "restriction" in my last post, but it rings disingenuous now! I'd be pushing the lynch in this direction if we had more time left in the day!

And like, this sounds even more fake!

I'm saying I'm not sure why more than one person would have the same sort of restriction

We have seen a backup get the same post restriction as schadd already. We see Prism combining 2 other claimed restrictions (schadd/DD's, but in the contrary, and yours). Then you say it's extremely unlikely that there are similar restrictions in the game? This makes me more inclined to think Prism's restriction is real and yours is faked, as the dueling restrictions is far more likely and thus the inability to admit they have it becomes more believable as well!

What is your read on Prism anyway?? How affected is it by your disbelief in their restriction? If you disbelieve the restriction and think they're lying, why aren't you voting there!?

[Aristophanes]

Doggon dammit! Aris is TOWN. (Just about time you towned it up, bro. I was starting to have my doubts)
On second thoughts, I'll degrade you to Town Lean for now. I'm waiting for another signal to be 100% sure.

~A50

Glad I could finally be here man!

[PiggyGal15]

My biggest SR right now is Chimchar, reading back over his argument about V/LA with Vegito, it seems really blown out of proportion, especially with the laidback attitude he has about the rest of the game, his reaction just seems really defensive; I'm pretty sure most people would've just said "lol I was V/LA" and moved on, but Chimchar didn't. However, I don't think he's the ideal lynch for today, considering there's really only one offense he's done and the rest of the reason to vote him is lurking, there's very little info for town to gain from Chimchar's death. So I'll put him on the back burner for now.

My other SR is AC, there's literally not a single reason for a single read that they have. None. Whatsoever. But no one else thinks this is suspicious and again, the lack of things AC has done gives us very little to work with on their flip, so I'll put them on the back burner too I suppose.

Ari is only a scumlean for me, imo there's not much that screams scum, but there's also very little scumhunting. He seems too chill and joking around for scum unless he knows his other scumbuddies are really good and in no danger so if he gets heat on himself it's not gonna cost them the game. I'm down for an Ari lynch tho, he's had a lot of interesting interaction with DD that makes me want to say their joking around was him buddying them, and considering I know myself to be town it really seems to me like my wagon is the scum's counterwagon (which, surprise surprise, has all my scumleans and reads on it - with AC even going against it, lol).

These reads all feel fake and appeasy and the 3P callout is just weird.

It's a bastard game, I'd be really surprised if there

wasn't

TP (but it being a bastard game isn't my only reason for believing there's TP, btw)

DD getting schadd's PR (and probably his entire role since the role's name was Post-Restricted Townie) seems fake af to me, but alright, not sure why y'all are just going along and believing that. I'll believe it when DD slips and also gets modkilled, it just seems like an opportunistic scum play to me.

This seems like they're pushing the read because they've committed to it and don't want to change it. DD inheriting the post restriction was very town indicative and Piggy ignored this, going as far at to wish for a Modkill to confirm them town. That's absolutely not a town thing to wish for!

Lol @DD that was hilariously fast, but now I'm really hoping you're not town because that means we have 2 dead townies and it's still day 1.

That's not what I was wishing for, I was saying the only way I was going to believe they inherited the PR was if they were modkilled, which they were, and I now believe they inherited the PR. I didn't ignore it, I called bullshit on it, pretty sure that's the exact opposite. And how, exactly, did you know and believe 100% that DD inherited the PR and was indeed conf-town?
VOTE: Ari
That's L-1, btw.

[Aristophanes]

If you'd ever interacted with me before you'd know my joking around is absolutely NAI. I do this because I like the people I play with and have a lot of fun in Mafia games! The whole reason I play is to have fun with friends! And nancy is one of my favourite people on the site, so of course I interacted with her more than anything. She is amazing and I know I can read her if we interact. I also had been calling DD town well before they inherited the restriction, so them lying about it would make no sense to me, and the getting it just gave me more evidence of their towniness!

Your voting for me despite my being a lesser scum lean suchs and I can feel the survivalistic nature of it seeping through!

Also, I'm going to look through AC's posts because I call bullshit on them never having posted reasoning for any of their reads.

What is this hidden alternate reason for believing there's a third party?

[Leonshade]

I wasn't going to post any more today, but I need to say that Ari is town and this wagon sucks. I will take a hammer as a scumclaim.

[Leonshade]

And Piggygal is trying to dismiss the wagon on her with "lol I always get wagoned/look scummy".

And Ari is suddenly a scumlean now that he's the viable counterwagon. Try to find a hint of an Ari scumread in Piggygal's ISO before that post. Survivalism is NAI, but not if it's linked with dishonesty.

[PiggyGal15]

Your voting for me despite my being a lesser scum lean suchs and I can feel the survivalistic nature of it seeping through!

Also, I'm going to look through AC's posts because I call bullshit on them never having posted reasoning for any of their reads.

What is this hidden alternate reason for believing there's a third party?

There's less than 2 days till deadline, we already have 2 dead townies, and my biggest scum reads are lurkers while my biggest town reads want you dead.

Good luck, cause I certainly can't find any.

Well now if I could specifically say why, I'd say it, don't you think?

And Piggygal is trying to dismiss the wagon on her with "lol I always get wagoned/look scummy".

And Ari is suddenly a scumlean now that he's the viable counterwagon. Try to find a hint of an Ari scumread in Piggygal's ISO before that post. Survivalism is NAI, but not if it's linked with dishonesty.

(try to find a hint of any scum read in my ISO lmao)
I'd love to actually discuss my wagon but I see no actual reason for voting me other than "wow she sure looks like scum" which you can't really argue against with anything other than a "no I'm not" and more interactions to prove it.

[Rautherdir]

Okay a few things now that Aristo is back:
First of all, Prism has blatantly broken their restriction without dying. So yes, Prism was faking. After hearing why she was faking, I no longer think she is scum.
Second of all, that was a scummy vote Piggy.
UNVOTE:
But I will give you a chance to figure out why that is so wrong.
No one vote Aristophanes until this gets sorted.

Piggy if you actually go through and gave reads on literally everyone I would probably be fine with not voting you.

[Rautherdir]

Seriously Piggy, why are you voting your scum-lean (who is at L-2) instead of one of your scum-reads. Why aren't you voting the people you are more confident are scum?

[Prism]

But the significant difference between Ari and other lurker lynches is that he has an incredibly obvious scum/town meta in that he plays as town but doesn't play as scum and hasn't been playing here. I've had games where I've played against town Ari and he's been lurking but both times I've correctly identified that he was town and stepped off his wagon before the lynch; neither time has he so obviously had time to post but then just decided not to.

This is bullshit. You're citing Ari's activity level as the end-all indicator of his alignment, which can definitely be true. You've proven it before, in fact.

That said, you're straightforwardly lying here about how it's done and what the difference is. I don't buy the "neither time has he obviously had time to post" horseshit.

You didn't just magically "correctly identify" he was town. That's not the difference here. The difference is you stepped in and helped him show his stuff, encouraging him along the way and giving him places to start, ready to vote him if he faltered. There is 0 of that here. You're not even trying to pull the town out of him, which you've done historically not just for Ari but practically anyone.

VOTE: Vegito

If you were town and could pull anything out of Belisarius to give to me too, that'd be great, I really need it.

[Leonshade]

(try to find a hint of any scum read in my ISO lmao)

Posts like these are not making me townread you, but I think that that's what you're trying to accomplish. I'm not buying this act after that Ari post and vote. It looks like you wanted to vote for Ari as a counterwagon to yourself, but instead of admitting to that, you wanted to pretend that you were scumreading him. I think you would've been more willing to just admit that you're voting for your counterwagon if you truly were in the relaxed, non-chalant state of mind you're trying to come off as being in.

[Prism]

Rauth is the runnerup vote here. I still haven't really read Piggy's wall but Rauth's reaction to the Aristo stuff:

WAIT ARI HAS BEEN POSTING ELSEWHERE?

...

Sorry I only just now realized that. Literally the only thing that was keeping me from voting you was the fact that you said you would get back.

VOTE: Aristophanes

As for the LYLO thing... That would be bad...
Although if we do manage to get to 3-person LYLO and the survivors all vote each other, JESUS HIMSELF gets to decide who dies. Since you know he won't be able to avoid hammering then. Although you'd have to get scum to agree to that so... Probably not happening.

Was terribly overdone I think, especially in comparison to the more measured approach he'd taken prior.

I'm also not a big fan of the reasoning behind the restriction revelation with me. He said "After hearing why she was faking, I no longer think she is scum." My reason was literally just that I think it's fun. What compelling reason is this to change his mind about my alignment? It's the clear go-to scum answer. Just like how Beli is my go-to man, the best mod around, the original gamemaster and mechanical wizard.

[Aristophanes]

Okay a few things now that Aristo is back:
First of all, Prism has blatantly broken their restriction without dying. So yes, Prism was faking. After hearing why she was faking, I no longer think she is scum.
Second of all, that was a scummy vote Piggy.
UNVOTE:
But I will give you a chance to figure out why that is so wrong.
No one vote Aristophanes until this gets sorted.

Piggy if you actually go through and gave reads on literally everyone I would probably be fine with not voting you.

This sounds so much like scum coaching their buddy holy shit!

I hate preflip associatives, but Rauth/Piggy scumteam is legit viable!

Ninja'd

[Leonshade]

Prism, it looks like your read on Nacho's read of Ari is based on meta? Could you link it?

I'm also feeling Rauth as scum, though coaching is rarely actually a thing scum do in the main thread, especially that blatantly.

[Rautherdir]

Okay a few things now that Aristo is back:
First of all, Prism has blatantly broken their restriction without dying. So yes, Prism was faking. After hearing why she was faking, I no longer think she is scum.
Second of all, that was a scummy vote Piggy.
UNVOTE:
But I will give you a chance to figure out why that is so wrong.
No one vote Aristophanes until this gets sorted.

Piggy if you actually go through and gave reads on literally everyone I would probably be fine with not voting you.

This sounds so much like scum coaching their buddy holy shit!

I hate preflip associatives, but Rauth/Piggy scumteam is legit viable!

Ninja'd

Why wouldn't I just not say anything and leave the counter-wagon at L-1 then?

[PiggyGal15]

Piggy if you actually go through and gave reads on literally everyone I would probably be fine with not voting you.

That sounds like way more effort than I have to give.

Seriously Piggy, why are you voting your scum-lean (who is at L-2) instead of one of your scum-reads. Why aren't you voting the people you are more confident are scum?

I literally said why twice now? There's less than 2 days till deadline (which you might think is a lot until someone breaks into a side argument and derails the wagons for the majority of that time and then we end up with no lynch) my biggest scum reads are lurkers which isn't going to give us much in the way of flip analysis and no one wants them dead aside from me, and my biggest town reads are on Ari. So Ari's not a bad D1 lynch imo, all of the reasons people have for voting Ari makes sense to me, and I'm happy to sheep my townreads on my scumleans until I have more of an argument for a counter wagon other than "lynch the lurkers", what's so wrong about that?