WWF Mafia: Royal Rumble (GAME OVER)

[mastina]

VOTE: Gerrygoat
Sheeping A50 until I get caught up.

LMAO if this isn't a scumclaim, idk what is

(It is in fact a scumclaim)

[mastina]

I'm tring dodge again, I forgot to say earlier. Maf was scared about massive having a kill and killing his SR, since he was obv pro town

As am I for what it's worth.

I think we have four scum and that Chickadee/LUV/McMenno/PeregrineV are them all.

If one of those is wrong, then I'd probably suggest a vengekill on Almost50.
Because I do townread Dodge and (sadly) also Majiffy.

Almost50, I still think is more town than scum. I still think he's town; I still think we have only four scum; I still think the above four are said four scum. But IF I'm wrong on any of those four, then he'd replace them in a heartbeat.

[mastina]

stop lynching gerryoat
almost you are derailing the game get back on chickadee

While the sentiment here is true enough.

I still think this is a scum McMenno making this comment.
It lacks push. Force. I'm not sure what word to use to describe McMenno's normal content, but...this isn't it.

[mastina]

almost you are derailing the game get back on chickadee

Counterwagons are not derails.

They kinda are when they're stealing votes from the lynch on scum.

[Leonshade]

I skimmed his ISO and I now remember some of the stuff I ST him for, and one is him trying to earn Town cred for not reading the rules and SRing me for not defending him based on it.

As I explained, we played together in Inception and he didn't read the rules. I was Town and he was SCUM in Inception, so I -of course- don't see it as "he always does that regardless of alignment" because it was the only time I remember seeing him in action and HE WAS SCUM.

Not only that (the Town cred appeal) but trying to push me as Scum for failing to "defend him" was a huge misrep and misdirection.

I'd forgotten all about this, I had to go check his ISO to remember what you were talking about. But I view it as more weird than scummy. In my experience, gerryoat is prone to basing their reads on themselves as well as the way others react to him (not always, but commonly). It's not misrep, as he's telling a truthful account of the events (you were in Inception Mafia, where he didn't read the rules, and now you're here, where he didn't read the rules). He's just drawing bizarre conclusions from them (that you should know it's NAI for him to not read the rules).

There is also the matter of "If I don't flip scum will you self vote tomorrow? I don't care if you're town, i want you to look like an idiot."

1- As Town you have your venge kill.
2- "I don't care if you're town" hardly comes fro, a Townie (who also thought there were 5 scum teams at the time)

I had to check the context for this, as I'd also forgotten about this. It looks like this happened when I was doing my term paper, as I went V/LA around this time, so I probably only skimmed through these pages. I don't think that gerry being spiteful about being scumread is indicative of scum (I casually followed Laundry Mafia, where his reaction was worse). I don't even think that forgetting about the vengekill is necessarily a scumslip. It's a minor PR, I can buy a townie forgetting about it. But his response where he implies that he knew about the vengekill but wanted you lynched instead is pretty bad. It seems more likely that he really did forget about the vengekill, and that the response is a quick excuse to cover that.

Earlier in 1259 was also a concern but I couldn't shape it in words at the time. That question is indeed much more likely to come from TOWN not from Scum, but gerry got it vise-versa.

Explanation: As Town I want to eliminate SCUM. I might have had 3-4 TRs (say) and 3-4 SRs. A couple more Scum Leans and as many Town Leans. That left more than 50% of the player list in the NULL aream and I wanted to know if I should move them up towards the Null/Town or down towards the Null/Scum, and especially so when a Town read (Nero) flipped Scum AND the fact that we had 4 Scum flips over the first 2 cycles (D1-N2) which was kind of ... strange?!

For Scum though; everyone not on your team is to be eliminated, so less important for them to know if town existed at all, as they don't need to sort anyone and they want everybody "not them" eliminated.

I don't see why this is alignment indicative for gerry either way? He came to a different conclusion than you did.

Even further earlier I found that gerry had expressed a TR on Chicka twice or thrice, yet is one of the strongest advocators for her lynch now that mastina decided Chicka was Scum. I sense buddying and gerry is comfortable riding a TR by mastina (one that gerry recently expressed concern over having dropped, when gerry used to ask everyone who TR'd him "why" earlier). Also gerry had a SR on Tywin but retracted it for no apparent reason and wasn't even on Tywin's wagon.

Note: You might think I'm being contradictory there, but I'm not. GERRY is. My point is if didn't want to lynch Tywin you should also not want to lynch Chicka because she was even a stronger TR of yours earlier. OR, you could have joined the Tywin lynch and be justified in your new stance regarding Chicla as "sheeping mastina proved fruitful" kind of thing.

The end of the last day is something that I also skimmed through and haven't gone back to check. I don't remember gerry's reasons for leaving the Tywin wagon, but since Tywin flipped SK, I don't think gerry leaving the wagon is inherently scummy.

In the end, that vengekill reaction does stand out. I really should go back to take a look at Inception at some point, I need to see why I TR'd him in that game.

[gerryoat]

Can we just lynch chick. If she flips town she can shoot me. Deal?

[gerryoat]

Leon I already explained my thoughts at the time for all that, just iso me

[Leonshade]

Two, pages 96-99 (not sure of exact start or end) where Leonshade suddenly is a player is this game! Would you look at that! (no Peregrine sightings though!) Why does this bother me? Well, you could see pages 1 through 95, where Leon is decidedly not a player in this game.

I don't think this is fair. Over half my ISO is outside of that stint of posting. I've been a part of the lynches we've had, and I was actively pushing for all the non-Gamma ones (and there was no need to push Gamma). There's been little need to argue over which wagon to push and multiple days have been cut off early, so my activity looks different from the average game, but I think this holds true for most players in this game. I've contributed to this game, claiming that I haven't is false.

The first thing that bothered me was the random 'Titus/Tywin are scum' together thing. I'm mostly fine with the response I eventually got, but I had to fight hard to get it. Now, this game has 2500+ posts, so it is reasonable that people miss things addressed at one another. In fact, as I was writing this I noticed that he asked something of me to which I missed.

Ok, this is pretty funny. You immediately undercut your own argument. Though that does show that you're more interested in being honest and thorough than simply making your argument look good.

In response to #2020, I asked Titus because I was interested in seeing how far she'd go. Notice that the vote quoted was not my first vote on Mastina, but my second, after I had unvoted after the bulk of mastina's catch up. At the time I think I was still wrestling with 'why has she not been forced replaced or modkilled?/huge coincidence? that she only starts her catch-up the moment she is in actual danger'. But I don't want to go into it and get another diatrade from mastina about how she plays a specific way and blah blah blah. Also, this isn't really about her.

Alright. I haven't really held you voting for mastina based on her not being modkilled against you, as I considered it plausible that someone would actually believe in that reasoning, even if I strongly disagreed with it. It's part of why I was surprised when Titus flipped scum, I didn't expect multiple scum to be pushing mastina based on the same reasoning. I was concerned about your question of Titus, as it looked like a way to justify lynching mastina regardless oh her alignment. I can buy you using it to sort Titus, as I considered your play more bizarre than scummy even at the time.

Back to Leon. So to recap, his response to my inquiry about his scumteam theory, that isn't a problem. Other than the nice panic at the end 'oh how else have I been scum in your esteemed opinion?' dripping with sarcasm to prove how ready he is for me to dissect his ISO, or something. I can view it as a minor 'he's shining a spotlight on me, I don't like it, I better deflect it quick.'

This... is reading a lot into this quote:

I was intending to post more, but it was Saturday night and guests came over. Do you have more examples of me posting in what you consider your optimal scum strategy, or is that it?

Would you read sentence the same way if you weren't already suspecting me? I would call this straight-up misrep, but I'm not sure if you're actually reading the above as sarcastic or not. My intention was to find out whether you were basing your read on me (you later stated that you were speaking more generally with that other paragraph, but this was my impression at the time) on just that one post, or whether you'd actually observed me playing like that throughout the game.

TWO posts later, Leon goes down a similar path. Except he jumps to the obvious conclusion. That Maria(or A50/Gerry) are complaining because they tried to make a kill! Wait, when I said 'he jumps to the obvious conclusion' I meant 'he jumps to the obvious conclusion to manipulate how the other players should think about this'. This isn't anyone's first mafia game, we all know that there is a fallacy where 'scum will complain/compliment night results that aren't what they wanted'. Does this actually happen outside of newbie queues? Most likely not. But it would sure be nice if we associated this specific scumtell to some players.

You associate some pretty manipulative ulterior motives to a pretty minor detail. There's a reason I didn't even mention the tell in my reads list, because I wasn't actually basing my reads on this tell. Quite the opposite, I noted that gerry's reaction to the kill seemed more likely to indicate that he didn't make the kill. The post was half-tongue-in-cheek, more something I wanted to point out than a serious accusation.

The third part of Leon's theme comes from his readslist a few posts later. This one, I know certain players are going to disagree with me (and I argued with mastina already). I never see a readslist and think 'this is coming from town'. I hate things that can appear to be set in stone, but in fact, can be easily and effortlessly manipulated (meta and VCA fall under this category).

Now, that doesn't make the opposite better. Before someone points out 'but T-Bone you go after people for fencesitting!'...these two things are not on the same spectrum. Basically, yes Leon provides a complete readslist, and a sane initial impression should be 'this is good, he's nailed down to a position, because he is genuinely town'. But, reread his read's list on #2444 and #2450. Is he REALLY nailed down to a position on anyone? First, he hedges by saying 'it would not surprise me if everyone flips scum'. This would be a sane position to take, on Day 3 maybe. More on this in a moment, but the massive kill to me, proves why this isn't a sane position. A 'safe' position, sure. Which is funny, because, in his criticism of Chickadee, he accuses her of 'playing safe'. You could use the same paragraph he wrote to describe...Leonshade.

What bothers me most is the hedging on his reads. He hedges on his townreads not named Priscilla, mastina, and Dodge. I know the three of us get the most amount of townreads, but do we honestly deserve it? Because his stated reasons boil down to 'why would scum-them do this?' And the answer to that question is obvious. Compare and contrasts the reasons Priscilla thinks I'm town, and the reasons mastina kinda thinks I'm town, to the reasons Leon says I'm town...and one player's reasonings stand out.

He of course votes Chickadee for playing like he is, but also hedges on LUV, McMenno, PV, and Gerry, and thinks Jiffy replaced someone. Along with MariaR and A50, he's left himself open to justifying himself on nearly everyone's lynch!

There's two separate things here that I want to respond to:

My play being similar to Chickadee's

Obviously I disagree. If I had to point at a key difference between my play and Chickadee's, it's that I've tried to get a comprehensive view of the game and get a read on everyone, which I haven't seen from Chickadee at all. I think Chick has very much just gone for whatever is convenient at the moment, I haven't seen much in the way of original scumhunting from her.

My reads

It's true that I'm not dead-set on many people in this game. When you take into account what type of game this is, why would you expect me to be? There's literally been one townflip in 12 deaths, and two people in KMD and Titus that I was townreading and townleaning, respectively, flipped scum. This is a multiball of lots of small teams. The usual way of scumhunting and reading people doesn't apply here, so it would be either foolish or dishonest to claim too much certainty in most of my townreads. I don't think I'm alone in this, but outside of the future lovers, most of the playerlist hasn't given comprehensive thoughts on everyone in this game.


There are a couple points above that bother me. I did like the fact that you were honest and effectively negated one of your points, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to refer to my play as a "narrative of manipulation", based on what you've presented. Your conclusion also seems at odds with the claim that I haven't been a player until that brief stint of posting a week or so ago. You could accuse me of coasting (which to some extent I admit myself, as you note with that quote of mine), but I don't see what you've presented as manipulative.

[Leonshade]

Leon I already explained my thoughts at the time for all that, just iso me

I'll do that later. My interest for today is still in lynching Chickadee. I'll focus on you when I need to.

[gerryoat]

When will obv town stop arguing with each other and vote obv scums. I'm also weary of people just prod dodging, seems like they see trying to stay out of the spotlight or a potentially venge spotlight.

[MariaR]

Gerry's sadly town btw.

[gerryoat]

Lurker comes out after being called out.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@LUV:

I remember you once saying that if you don't defend yourself, you're town. Have you consciously changed your playstyle since then? As your recent play seems to consist almost exclusively of you defending yourself.

I'm aware of, but have not yet read, Almost's case on gerry and Dodge's case on me. I'll tackle those, next.

Ah yes. This is true, but a little thing called context should come into play here.

For those unaware, I am restricted to only being able to play 4 games at a time due to excessively replacing out of games. Meaning I cannot replace out of game unless it is really an emergency. So I can opt to just prod dodge and shit post or I can help town. I choose to do the latter this game as I've realized that I have not been treating some of the players here with the proper respect that they deserve.

How am I helping the town you ask? Well I'm now starting to poke at things again, which is why my vote is on A50. I'm getting down to the root of why everyone is scum reading me and trying to explain that those reasons are NAI. You may consider that defending but I consider it getting the facts straight and getting everyone on the same page. I'm a winner and I would hate to have someone who has played so pro-town as mastina has mislynch me and that lead to a town loss.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

For those who are big fans of meta, here is a game I was in where I was town and had solved the game quickly. I got bored by people not voting obvious scum and had to be prodded.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=71896

[Lil Uzi Vert]

For those that consist on going on Civ meta, I had got frustrated because Bee was town and frustrated when no one wanted to lynch Notice so as I result I started trolling and ignoring the game. I was town there.

- Scott

[MariaR]

Lurker comes out after being called out.

Oh you did not just call me a lurker.

[Leonshade]

I do buy LUV being demotivated. I haven't seen scum!LUV but my understanding is that scum!LUV coasts, too. I need to look at the difference between demotivated town!LUV and coasting scum!LUV.

By which I mean, I won't do that now, LUV isn't being lynched today. But it'd be the thing to do if LUV was a viable wagon.

[MariaR]

to be demotivated you have to be motivated in the first place...

[gerryoat]

Lurker comes out after being called out.

Oh you did not just call me a lurker.

Oh yes I did

[MariaR]

VOTE: goatboy

[gerryoat]

Loser

[MariaR]

get lynched moron!

[gerryoat]

Vote obv maf plz

[MariaR]

VOTE: goat boy

[MariaR]

VOTE: Chickadee