Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[Titus]

Doubly so if RC is town.

because you're gonna turn around and mislynch me like our last game?

? In our last game, I faked a guilty on you as scum and still barely got you lynched because you grandstanded quite well like you're doing now.

You're still avoiding giving your read on Navy and your thoughts on if they are scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

navy scum doesn't change my readslist

[Kelvin Smith]

scum aren't ever as predictable as you expect them to be: your subset of reads based off of 'scum would do x' are never right

And now you're talking down to me. My reads on town are usually right. My scum ones can be wrong from time to time. You've been wrong too. I believe even Cerb has it in his sig.

Your reads on town are usually right by virtue of the statistical advantage you wield when you call people town. There are more of them than scum. If you can't call scum right, then it implies you must presumably also call scum town from time to time.

[RadiantCowbells]

and you know full well I meant last game where we were both town

except for the one I replaced out of because you doing exactly what you're doing here killed my desire to play (mini normal)

extrapolate from that and think long and hard whether me being unhappy with you is a scum ploy

[Kelvin Smith]

I cannot stop Gamma or Alban from voting you Kelvin. I can't force that.

So lynching Math is game over. Doubly so if RC is town.

Remember that thing where you are willing to consider a world where Math is town? Bullshit. Because you are saying that a Math lynch is inherently game over.

Gamma isn't going to lynch me though. And even if I did, you don't have to force jack shit. You're not the only damn player in the game, so you don't have to pull all the goddamn strings. Let me fucking handle myself. I'm not a goddamn child.

[Titus]

i can manipulate you because it mattered to me enough as a player to learn what makes you tick. why did you never care enough to do the same?

And you're trying to manipulate me now regardless of alignment in a slimy way.

You also know I am slower to pick up on things like that.

I don't like being manipulated RC.

no this is me trying to have a conversation with you

in case you hadnt realized you never pick up on me actually manipulating you.

are you slower or have you never tried?

When you start insulting me saying I never try to work with you or solve you, it is manipulating. You're trying to guilt me into conclusions that have no basis in the thread.

You want to talk to me about Math scum. We can do that. Leave the politicking out of it.

First, why hasn't Navy wagon taken off if Math is scum?

It's not meant as an insult. I genuinely feel exactly the fucking same as RC right now. It feels like you preach cooperation, but practice totalitarian rule. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to you, but it's what it fucking feels like.

Maybe because Navy is also scum? Alternatively, it's entirely possible that it hasn't taken off because of a combination of inactivity and a block of town voters who actively prefer a Math lynch. The thing is, if I had acquiesced earlier, you probably could've easily gotten that Navy lynch. On the other hand, even if you had given in on Math, getting the support would have still been difficult, though not impossible.

No. I cannot even discuss reads with you and get anything beyond Math is scum and you should listen. We aren't cooperating because there's no dialogue from you. No willingness to consider you might be wrong despite me making every effort to plan as if I am both right and wrong.

I'm fucking tired of you implicitly calling me a fucking liar every time you say this. I've constantly considered that I could be wrong about Math, but I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong, because even if I am, all intellectually honest players (i.e. those who don't consider you conftown without hard evidence) will learn your alignment if Math flips town.

The town block mostly was on Navy until Vedith said to hell with this game. Gamma is leaning towards Navy. You're being stubborn about lynching Math because they claimed an innocent.

You think I care about what your townbloc thinks? I don't trust any of them, you included, either in terms of alignment or judgment.

Yes, in this setup, Cops that claim innocents should be lynched as a best practice. It confirms town (who can receive Doc protection) and roots out any scum trying to buddy/protect their partners. It's arguably the best way to utilize them in this setup.

If Navy is also scum, then why are you so adamant about not lynching them? Math can never ever turn on me ever. I can force them to vote first according to proper lylo play if they are scum. They can be forced to not go off the deep end.

I said Navy could also be scum. I was adamant then because Math's lynch gave us more info on a mislynch, but I'm adamant now because of principle.

If you're wrong and I'm wrong, the game is over anyway because Navy will never vote.

If we're both wrong, the game is still winable, we just have to course correct. And if we lose? Oh well. It's the wages of our efforts.

Best practice is to never lynch a cop with a result. Period. It PoEs scum and forces every one of their nightkills.

Kelvin, I thrive on my townblocks. My townblocks are what tell me what is and isn't possible. I talk with them to filter my reads and see if I am off the deep end. So yes, I value Gamma's opinion. The better my block, the better my reads. So when you say you don't care about my block, you've learned nothing. You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

Math gives us zero information as no one SRs me. Sure players might be annoyed with me, but scumread, no.

You really think you'll course correct after forcing down a mislynch? You want to depend on Navy voting correctly in lylo when I am usually their rock and I'll be dead and if they are town they'll hate your guts (in game). No, she'd vote you without a second thought.

[RadiantCowbells]

You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

wrong. just because someone isn't mafia doesn't mean they're not scum.

[alban]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

Okay. If I am going to be a suspect regardless of what I do, I am not gonna vote for Math/Navy. You can take support from other parties. My vote is fine where it is. At this point in the game, I will play based on my beliefs rather than yours/Titus's/RC's. I was ready to vote for Math, but you are very cleverly safeguarding your interests either coz of your playstyle or coz you are a scum.

My two cents: My suggestion to the cops will be regardless of who turns out to be what at the lynch's end, they should cop Kelvin/Titus/RC tonight so that there's at least one confirmed player who can drive the game. These three are being active and giving out a vibe that they know what they are doing. Till I am not sure about their alignment, I can't trust their plan. I think the hierarchy should be RC>Titus>Kelvin, and then the town should tomorrow do more or less what the confirmed townie feels is right. The danger in copping inactive players or players who are not in a position to drive the game is that even if you know their alignment, so what? Like if you cop me, and know that I am town, how is it going to affect the game? At this point, it might be good for everyone to know the alignment of a driven player rather than for a driven player to know the alignment of an inactive one. That way even the driven player will derive more traction.

[Titus]

and you know full well I meant last game where we were both town

except for the one I replaced out of because you doing exactly what you're doing here killed my desire to play (mini normal)

extrapolate from that and think long and hard whether me being unhappy with you is a scum ploy

Now, that's not why you replaced out of that mini normal RC.

You said Transcend was lock scum. I told you that you were not mislynching my townread by strongarming. You subbed out. My townread was town. Guess what, Math lynched him after I died despite everyone saying no.

Yet, you'll be unhappy with a Navy lynch as their partner or as stubborn town. I don't know RC. You've done this to me under an alt before (initials PL) and begged me to work with you.

[Titus]

You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

wrong. just because someone isn't mafia doesn't mean they're not scum.

Wtf is this?

Right now, we don't have the lynches to spare. It is black and white. Either you are town or not. Either Math is town ir they aren't.

[Titus]

We could no lynch and then just cop Navy or Math, but that's just y'all refusing to consider Math town.

I am not lynching in the cops RC before the scum doc is found. You want not Navy, find me a better lynch.

[RadiantCowbells]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't have a better lynch in the doc claims as long as you are going to lynch me if navy is town and I can't say 100% that she isn't.

and blowing cops in the doc pool is catastrophically bad long term

[alban]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

[Titus]

I don't have a better lynch in the doc claims as long as you are going to lynch me if navy is town and I can't say 100% that she isn't.

and blowing cops in the doc pool is catastrophically bad long term

Why is it bad long term supposing a Navy scumflip given the biggest protesters are docs themselves?

How can Navy scum not change your readslist?
What is your readslist?

[Kelvin Smith]

Best practice is to never lynch a cop with a result. Period. It PoEs scum and forces every one of their nightkills.

See, that's just inherently wrong. Sure, that's often true with full Cops. But limited shot Cops and/or Cops that people believe are scum sometimes need to get lynched to prove their results. Scum have little motivation to kill a claimed Cop and confirm their results to be true. That gains them nothing.

Kelvin, I thrive on my townblocks. My townblocks are what tell me what is and isn't possible. I talk with them to filter my reads and see if I am off the deep end. So yes, I value Gamma's opinion. The better my block, the better my reads. So when you say you don't care about my block, you've learned nothing. You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

You understand that Boon was scum, right...?

Also, I'm not necessarily even saying they are a bad thing (though they are dangerous), I'm saying that this specific one is not filled with people I trust. Though I don't know who is in it. Gamma seems alright, but I have a hard time trusting either you or Math. And again, even if the alignment of a townbloc is all town, the judgment exercised can still be poor.

Math gives us zero information as no one SRs me. Sure players might be annoyed with me, but scumread, no.

Just because people don't scumread you now, doesn't mean they never will. And just because you townread/scumread somebody, doesn't mean you should take it for granted that you are right. Reads are so stupid because people do make that assumption though. You can operate assuming you are right, but you should always be prepared to be wrong. You want to talk about intellectual honesty? That's what intellectual honesty actually is.

You really think you'll course correct after forcing down a mislynch? You want to depend on Navy voting correctly in lylo when I am usually their rock and I'll be dead and if they are town they'll hate your guts (in game). No, she'd vote you without a second thought.

Why would you be dead? If you're town, you are Docable. And no, I don't think it'll go down like that.

[Titus]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

Yeah. This game has been very patronizing and insulting while Kelvin basically anti-town tunnels, RC basically is starting from me being wrong..

[RadiantCowbells]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

further

1) I am eating a nightkill at some point regardless of conftown status and me demanding doc protection lets scum shoot cops
2) there's only one scum in the docs I am 99.99% sure

[RadiantCowbells]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

Yeah. This game has been very patronizing and insulting while Kelvin basically anti-town tunnels, RC basically is starting from me being wrong..

No im starting from if you're wrong i want to take the reins and you're refusing even that.

[Titus]

@Kelvin, Intellectual honesty is about acknowledging ones biases. I am prone to pride, so I try to counter that by discussing with my townblock. It also means applying the same standard.

You've argued you're not getting lynched or killed. I'm very aware bith of us may die. You're acting as if being wrong only has consequences for me. I'm not wrong though.

@RC, I agree 1 scum in doctor. Either you or Navy. Stop supposing you're the NK when your reads are shit. Maybe you're pucking a fight with me as town to help survive. Remember Divergent? We had about half right half wrong and worked through it. You didn't resort to ego games.

[RadiantCowbells]

this isnt ego games this is you refusing to consider that you could be wrong on 5 different reads.

[Titus]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

Yeah. This game has been very patronizing and insulting while Kelvin basically anti-town tunnels, RC basically is starting from me being wrong..

No im starting from if you're wrong i want to take the reins and you're refusing even that.

Right because you've shown me no ability to consider a town Math in the event of even a compromise lynch. Town you would never lynch Navy or cop Navy. You'd go after Alban and Gamma, both town.

I am willing to have Math copped if I am wrong. Everyone unknown doc has a match and a trove of data to compare to.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

Okay. If I am going to be a suspect regardless of what I do, I am not gonna vote for Math/Navy. You can take support from other parties. My vote is fine where it is. At this point in the game, I will play based on my beliefs rather than yours/Titus's/RC's. I was ready to vote for Math, but you are very cleverly safeguarding your interests either coz of your playstyle or coz you are a scum.

Why would you ever not be a suspect, regardless of your vote? You realize that I should rightfully be a suspect too right? Don't act like voting on the right wagon makes you town and only those on the wrong wagon are scum.

Don't give me this "I was gonna do it, but then you fucked up" things. RC is a vanity wagon and you know it, so if you want to throw your vote away, rather than try to help the town, then of course you are going to meet some suspicion.

My two cents: My suggestion to the cops will be regardless of who turns out to be what at the lynch's end, they should cop Kelvin/Titus/RC tonight so that there's at least one confirmed player who can drive the game. These three are being active and giving out a vibe that they know what they are doing. Till I am not sure about their alignment, I can't trust their plan. I think the hierarchy should be RC>Titus>Kelvin, and then the town should tomorrow do more or less what the confirmed townie feels is right. The danger in copping inactive players or players who are not in a position to drive the game is that even if you know their alignment, so what? Like if you cop me, and know that I am town, how is it going to affect the game? At this point, it might be good for everyone to know the alignment of a driven player rather than for a driven player to know the alignment of an inactive one. That way even the driven player will derive more traction.

No, this is bad. Confirmed town =/= right, first of all. Town can and are wrong all the time. Second of all, a Cop in this setup is unable to confirm anybody tomorrow, because they could be fake. If there is scum among us, you're basically telling scum to fakeclaim and say that the scum is town, which will drive mislynches. If you're town, help either Navy or Math get lynched, because any lynch is better than no lynch right now.

[Titus]

this isnt ego games this is you refusing to consider that you could be wrong on 5 different reads.

No. You can case someone. You can try to convince me.

I don't think the cops are town.

We agree on Kelvin lock town. Let's start there.

[Titus]

@alban, I don't want to lynch RC unless Navy flips town. I don't trust them 100% but it's more 75% Navy, 20% RC, 5% Kelvin/alban. That doc don't hunt.