Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[alban]

why is he lurker scum and not lurker town

i mean he fucking replaced out maybe he was busy irl like he said he was

So, then why was he saved? Why would a one time doc heal a lurker? Why would scums target a lurker that helps them later?

[RadiantCowbells]

why is he lurker scum and not lurker town

i mean he fucking replaced out maybe he was busy irl like he said he was

So, then why was he saved? Why would a one time doc heal a lurker? Why would scums target a lurker that helps them later?

Because NJAC wasn't a lurker on day 1. he was reasonably well townread and I can empathize with my predecessor's choice of target.

He was reasonably low activity at the time but he was doing stuff: it wasn't until day 2 that he started vanishing from the game.

[Kelvin Smith]

RC, I'm totally coming around on this alban thing. If there are enough votes, I'll hammer.

[RadiantCowbells]

Just wanted to mention that Titus didn't read D1 yet she thinks AS's choice of protecting my slot made no sense. Those who read D1 know that I was town read by several players.

I think AS is town.

going to bump this and also point out that he made 42 posts on day 1 then 23 over the remainder of the game, so he wasn't lurking on day 1.

[alban]

I don't think I see much effort from Alban to narrow down his scumpool tbh

Yeah, so? At least I am being honest enough to say that. I rather keep my scum pool wide than to force a mislynch based on wrong or insufficient reasons. This is exactly why I have been poking holes in theories of people like Kelvin even when he and I are suspecting the same person.

[Gamma Emerald]

Can you at list give the strength of your reads?

[alban]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

even if you're town NJAC was the nightkill. sorry that's just facts.

The only way you know that is if you are scum. Otherwise everything (including Creature being a NK) is just a conjecture.

[Titus]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

[Gamma Emerald]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

even if you're town NJAC was the nightkill. sorry that's just facts.

The only way you know that is if you are scum. Otherwise everything (including Creature being a NK) is just a conjecture.

That makes no sense. If NJAC was killed and RC/AS were mafia wouldn't we have a death n1?

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

You find 6 people scummy in a 3 scum game with 10 people alive. So, what? You're just going to shut down all cooperation with every player or...?

Yes, I do. And since I am town, it's natural to not know anything apart from my own identity and hence be a skeptic about everything everyone says!

So you've been playing for this whole fucking game and your conclusion is that 6 out of the 9 players besides you can't be trusted enough to even vote on the same wagon as them?

Not completely true. Yes, I find 6 people scummy. Yes, I can't trust weak logic of people I find scummy. But no, not true that I can't trust them if the logic is strong. This is why I have been asking you to sum up your case on Math. Which you refused to do. So then don't blame me for not getting on the wagon.

[alban]

if you're going to throw shitty shade at me then I'll assume that you're scum and vote you instead.

So, everyone who disagrees with you is a scum?

No, everyone who is doing literally the exact same thing in our previous game where they were scum is scum.

WHAT?! Everyone who has played with me knows that I have very different town and scum games, and this game is my town game --- being skeptic about popular wagons, being easy lynches, being vindictive, etc. My scum game is extremely calm and composed. Even if I am boiling within, I will pose as a zen. The only time I lost my cool as a scum was when I was scum with you and thats coz you used my slot without my consent, got me lynched and gained town cred for yourself. So yeah, if I am scum, then so are you. Coz you are doing exactly that now.

[alban]

RC, I'm totally coming around on this alban thing. If there are enough votes, I'll hammer.

Never give reasons. That seems to b motto of yours and rC's.
It's actually a great strategy. Coz the moment you give reasons, someone can refute you.
I mean really, if you are a town, you realise the scum will haunt you with my lynch?

[Kelvin Smith]

Fuck this fucking farce.

UNVOTE: MathBlade
VOTE: alban

[alban]

Can you at list give the strength of your reads?

Bro, this game is confusing as hell because almost everyone is a replacement, and the replacement are strong intelligent players who can manipulate the shit out of you. Let me think about this though. I mean I have been typing like crazy just coz I felt I am on the backfoot coz of the wagon on me. I will think and get back on this.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

Here:

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

[RadiantCowbells]

WHAT?! Everyone who has played with me knows that I have very different town and scum games, and this game is my town game --- being skeptic about popular wagons, being easy lynches, being vindictive, etc. My scum game is extremely calm and composed. Even if I am boiling within, I will pose as a zen. The only time I lost my cool as a scum was when I was scum with you and thats coz you used my slot without my consent, got me lynched and gained town cred for yourself. So yeah, if I am scum, then so are you. Coz you are doing exactly that now.

???

Your slot lived to endgame. because I worked my ass off to keep it alive. Sorry but simply never touching your scumpartners isn't going to cut it in such a townsided game.

We won at the end, if you went back and looked, because the interplay between our slots on D1 made us not possibly scumpartners. Which I did despite your protests.

Also you were crying at me for my choice of actions night 1, but if I hadn't changed all the actions away from what you wanted to do I would have been guiltied and we'd have been fucking slaughtered after the watcher watched Schadd next night and we'd be down to 1 player versus a massive block of confirmable town PRs.

I never intended for you to get lynched. You didn't get lynched. I let nancy get guiltied because it was the best move for the team and it won us the game. Sorry if you didn't like the way I do things because I get that it's not exactly the most fun thing in the world to play around me wanting to make sure we could reach endgame as a team. but we did because of things I did.

And I was referring to Vedith, not you. I don't really understand the difference between your town and scum meta as things are. I just know that you're scummy in general.

Like the one reason that I don't want to vote you is that Mathblade seems sorta keen on lynching you but I know that they would probably aggressively bus in this situation so.

[alban]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

even if you're town NJAC was the nightkill. sorry that's just facts.

The only way you know that is if you are scum. Otherwise everything (including Creature being a NK) is just a conjecture.

That makes no sense. If NJAC was killed and RC/AS were mafia wouldn't we have a death n1?

Even if Agent Sparkles saved NJAC, how would AS know that NJAC was the choice for NK? How does anyone know anything for sure? That was my point. In fact, if I am town, why is it so difficult for RC to digest that Creature could have been the choice for NK?

[Kelvin Smith]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

Here:

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

Oh, shit, that's right. I forgot how bad that post looked.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I was super clear the entire game that my intention was not for you to get lynched.
When your slot was actually under threat of being lynched I stuck my neck out super, super hard preventing your slots lynch via pretending that I was just sick of seeing nancy quicklynched.
I was willing to do things that could, very unlikely, but potentially get you lynched: because if I didn't we wouldn't win late game. but if you had actually been at major threat of getting lynched I'd have pulled your ass out of the fire.

I don't always bus. If you read Civ I didn't touch any of my scumpartners and brought Gork from a lead wagon to there never being a serious wagon on scum again for the remainder of the game.

I play to win and taking my slot more seriously than other slots is the only rational play considering that I'm just, like, better at scum play than you or bang.
And I don't say that to brag it's just a rational fact and if you're approaching the situation objectively there's not really grounds for disagreeing with it.

Even if Agent Sparkles saved NJAC, how would AS know that NJAC was the choice for NK? How does anyone know anything for sure? That was my point. In fact, if I am town, why is it so difficult for RC to digest that Creature could have been the choice for NK?

Because it seems far, far less likely from my point of view. NJAC seems like a sort of obvious nightkill at the time, whereas Creature was reasonably lynchable and scumread.

[RadiantCowbells]

And no I don't have issues digesting anything.

There's 3 choices and of the choices 2 of them don't really seem likely to me whereas my protect (and the one that I KNOW came from town) seems like a likely nightkill target.

It feels to me like not a single person talking has read day 1 and that makes me laugh at people (vedith) calling me out for it because Creature was getting a lot of flak whereas NJAC was a general townread.

[alban]

WHAT?! Everyone who has played with me knows that I have very different town and scum games, and this game is my town game --- being skeptic about popular wagons, being easy lynches, being vindictive, etc. My scum game is extremely calm and composed. Even if I am boiling within, I will pose as a zen. The only time I lost my cool as a scum was when I was scum with you and thats coz you used my slot without my consent, got me lynched and gained town cred for yourself. So yeah, if I am scum, then so are you. Coz you are doing exactly that now.

???

Your slot lived to endgame. because I worked my ass off to keep it alive. Sorry but simply never touching your scumpartners isn't going to cut it in such a townsided game.

We won at the end, if you went back and looked, because the interplay between our slots on D1 made us not possibly scumpartners. Which I did despite your protests.

Also you were crying at me for my choice of actions night 1, but if I hadn't changed all the actions away from what you wanted to do I would have been guiltied and we'd have been fucking slaughtered after the watcher watched Schadd next night and we'd be down to 1 player versus a massive block of confirmable town PRs.

I never intended for you to get lynched. You didn't get lynched. I let nancy get guiltied because it was the best move for the team and it won us the game. Sorry if you didn't like the way I do things because I get that it's not exactly the most fun thing in the world to play around me wanting to make sure we could reach endgame as a team. but we did because of things I did.

And I was referring to Vedith, not you. I don't really understand the difference between your town and scum meta as things are. I just know that you're scummy in general.

Like the one reason that I don't want to vote you is that Mathblade seems sorta keen on lynching you but I know that they would probably aggressively bus in this situation so.

Winning or losing has nothing to do with your playstyle. Since this is a team game, you need to consult everyone on everything, least of all requires me as the target of your witchhunt.

No, I didn't observe the game after I left, and I assumed that I must have been lynched coz of the marvellous way in which you implicated me. I have no problem in staying alive in the game till the end. It's just that you never consulted that with me. You were so taken over by the aim of winning that you forgot there are other people playing with you on the scumteam.

It also turned ugly coz you were unable to digest the fact that I was shading you. It was fine till you implicated me and distanced yourself from me, but the moment i started giving out logical points as to why you could be scum, you cried on the scumchat. So no, it wasn't me who complained, but it was you who couldn't handle the shit that was give to you in return.

I have no problem in someone changing the night actions. Except what you did was instead of doing a night action yourself, you changed the night action at the last moment and handed it out to me. This was solely done to safeguard your own interests in case you are investigated in the night instead of safeguarding interests of the team. Again, I have no problem if someone thinks this is the best thing to do as a team, but you did that sneakily, without consulting with any of the partners.

I have no problem with your moves. You are a damn good player as a scum. But I have problem with your sneaky attitude and arrogance that makes you behave as if you are the only player and everyone else is a putty in your hands.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

Here:

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

Oh, shit, that's right. I forgot how bad that post looked.

This is what being "a half decent human being" mean to you? You are such a closet passive-aggressive Kelvin, it's not even funny. Fuck off and don't ever fucking interact with me.

[RadiantCowbells]

It also turned ugly coz you were unable to digest the fact that I was shading you. It was fine till you implicated me and distanced yourself from me, but the moment i started giving out logical points as to why you could be scum, you cried on the scumchat. So no, it wasn't me who complained, but it was you who couldn't handle the shit that was give to you in return.

No. I didn't like the manner that you were doing so. It felt scum v scum. I have zero issues with my scumpartners pushing on me. In NY184 I had both my team push on me from the beginning. In Open 685 I had Titus claim a guilty on me. I really don't have an issue being pushed in the sense that you think.
If you were doing it in a way that didn't feel SvS to me I wouldn't have objected to it. And for the record scum being the only person pushing on someone who is generally townread is a huge scum v scum indicator.

I have no problem in someone changing the night actions. Except what you did was instead of doing a night action yourself, you changed the night action at the last moment and handed it out to me. This was solely done to safeguard your own interests in case you are investigated in the night instead of safeguarding interests of the team. Again, I have no problem if someone thinks this is the best thing to do as a team, but you did that sneakily, without consulting with any of the partners.

I'm part of the team, dude, and you were never going to be tracked. And yes, I wanted to safeguard the teams interest by keeping us alive, so I roleblocked a cop that would have otherwise tracked me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I'm not selfish. I'm pro-win. I play selfishly at times because I have the highest odds of winning the game but when I am not my team's highest odds of winning the game I don't play like that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like just an example: I was almost never making it through F2F mafia regardless of what I did because the group at kingsmeet never townread me. that's just facts.
So I was pushing on Summer and she was going to get lynched but I didn't think I would actually make it to endgame if I pushed her so I told her not to venge me if she was town in a really scummy way
I got lynched, Summer endgamed town and we won.

You're conflating me having more confidence in my own personal ability to win games the vast majority of the time, which is true, with me playing selfish because selfish.