Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[Mulch]

Mulch, have you read D1? Or your reads are based off VCA?

I've read day 1, (skimmed at least), I've done some Isos. I don't actually like VCA (or maybe I'm just bad at using it lol) because I think because of a lack of a standard conclusions on what is scummy or not it's easily manipulatiable by scum.

[Mulch]

I'd also loosely followed the game before I replaced IO- again, one of the reasons I came in was beacuse I knew IO was obvious town and I wasn't in the mood for a scum game atm lol

[Mulch]

Alban- explain to me why your ISO has a lack of scumhunting in it.

I'd also like you to explain more your almost ragequit. It's typically perceived as a town move but I've been seeing scum do it lately as well. What was going through your mind when you decided to leave and come back? Why were you prompted to make so much of a drastic decision?

[awesomeusername]

Oh, that kind of hedging - I remember him going after both slots, but it didn't really ping me at the time. I felt like he just had two scum reads, although Vedith was partially policy as well. I can definitely see how that's a problem.

@alban: Can you also give reasons for your townread on Carcalilly?

[alban]

Oh, that kind of hedging - I remember him going after both slots, but it didn't really ping me at the time. I felt like he just had two scum reads, although Vedith was partially policy as well. I can definitely see how that's a problem.

@alban: Can you also give reasons for your townread on Carcalilly?

Does 'he' and 'him' in this sentence refer to me? Coz if it does, that's a blatant misrepresentation.
Get back to me if it refers to me, and I will clarify.

[LlamaFluff]

I can see this coming from villa because usually villa first reaction to me declaring myself conftown is to push back even though it's NAI/towny for me.

Cool. More self-meta.

The part about the policy lynch is a little scummy imo because it's already looking like you are subtly trying to give an excuse for your behavior on Vedith. nobody really brought it up, or gave you heat, so why are you already trying to rationalize it?

I have zero problem saying Vedith was in part a policy lynch. If a player is publicly going to be a nuisance and toe the line of being useless in a game I will always be on board to lynch them unless they are blindly obvious town. Worst case you lose a liability, best case scum dies. Statement is essentially a "see this is why we don't troll, lets play the game" comment.

Io was a good scum chance after the flips because of:

Except I said I would only vote Carca is Verdith was scum because the case of Carca being scum on her own is not very strong at all in my opinion.

Their entire stance leading up to the end of the day was "Vedith is scum and Carcalilly with him" but also that if Vedith was town, he could immediately drop the case on Carcalilly.

The only reason im not already voting there is because I read the whole "I hate playing with Vedith" tone that I was feeling all of the first day. Its genuine, just not as sure if scum would be too likely to make that statement genuinely.

Contains the stuff that's sort of giving like "here is some arguements for Vedith, here is for Carc" etc, and combined with the fact that they made that case on Carc and then ended up voting Vedith is bad.

Why wouldn't I make a case on Carcalilly? I was explicitly asked by AUN as to why I thought they were also scum after stating that I thought Vedith was more likely scum but Carcalilly was a great partner pick. The entire wagon on them started because AUN pushed back on my scum read there and I defended it. That's why Io and AUN are my preferred picks.

And explain 74

714

EBWOP

Both were cross voting while refusing to explain reads in a way that had any sort of merits (Carcalilly was sheeping me, Vedith was something like "shut up im right"). Sometimes when dealing with players who don't really give much information you just have to be blunt and sometimes they actually start responding.

[Mulch]

First: A serious question. Do you scumread self meta, or are you just saying that as a buzzword?

[Mulch]

The part about the policy lynch is a little scummy imo because it's already looking like you are subtly trying to give an excuse for your behavior on Vedith. nobody really brought it up, or gave you heat, so why are you already trying to rationalize it?

I have zero problem saying Vedith was in part a policy lynch. If a player is publicly going to be a nuisance and toe the line of being useless in a game I will always be on board to lynch them unless they are blindly obvious town. Worst case you lose a liability, best case scum dies. Statement is essentially a "see this is why we don't troll, lets play the game" comment.

I

This is bothering me, like a lot. This is a flat out strawman, 100%. No dispute. This is not my question at all.

[alban]

Alban- explain to me why your ISO has a lack of scumhunting in it.

I'd also like you to explain more your almost ragequit. It's typically perceived as a town move but I've been seeing scum do it lately as well. What was going through your mind when you decided to leave and come back? Why were you prompted to make so much of a drastic decision?

Yes, I have sleepwalked much throughout the game. Which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has played with me. Unfortunately, Io, Vedith and LUV are all out of the game, who could throw light on my playstyle.

I am not much of a player on D1 coz everything just seems random. But I have tried to change that. In fact, when the hammer was happening, I was reading the last 10 pages, and making a detailed cases on everyone. I can share it with everyone as a proof.

Anyway, so as I was saying, something happened, and I came on the last page where the idiots were voting for Vedith. Now, Vedith was probably the towniest player in the game. It was obvious he was fakeclaiming, but I don't think a scum would do that. To lynch such a towny player was the first reason for the rage.

The second reason was my RV was still on him, and maybe in the absence of that, Vedith wouldn't be lynched. I had voted for him out of spite in a previous game where he didn't support me as a fellow townie. And the game eventually went to the scum. And as I had mentioned in a previous post in this game, that my RVS usually stays until I find a suitable candidate to vote for D1. Which is what I was doing. I was most likely to vote for Awesome or Innocent. But the hammer happened during this. I thought I have 4 days, but the day ended prematurely.

[Mulch]

I do think your point about IO saying Carca and VEdith are scumscum or towntown is a pretty good point and could come from a town mentality. I can't really defend against it except to say that it's so obviously scummy that there is little chance Io would say that as actual scum partners. I mean, it's like such a blatant pre flip analysis, which is something scummy in itself, and the ramifiactions get even more scummier from Io's theoreotical PoV if Carca were ever to flip. It's like something that's scummy in theory but in practice is TWTBAW

[Mulch]

First: A serious question. Do you scumread self meta, or are you just saying that as a buzzword?

The reason I say this is because in my experience it's actaulyl been a super towny thing and a powerful thing for people to use. Scum have a lot more trouble doing self meta.

[Mulch]

@Alban- I'm going to say right now I don't really think that "I sleepwalk through day 1" will cut is in terms of you having little motiviation to sort, because it sort of appears like you are TRYING to sort day 1 but just more floating while also trying to give the appearance that you aren't. Do you understand what I'm saying?


I understand your answer to the question regarding the ragequit, but I want to know why you were SO posesses to do it based on that. Do you usually get this angry in games?

[Mulch]

And on a similar point @llama- basically, you've reiterated that you had scumreads on Vedith/policy on Vedith and Carca too, etc, but my point is mostly that you made this big stuff on Carca and then your vote basically wasn't there when it mattered and instead you opted for your policy, and that in my experience it's very often for scum to try and hedge and try to seem like they are weighing all options then choose to vote the person not their partners in the end. There's very little you can say to try to change my mind about this, although I would like to continue to hear your thoughts. (And the strawman dosen't help)

[LlamaFluff]

And on a similar point @llama- basically, you've reiterated that you had scumreads on Vedith/policy on Vedith and Carca too, etc, but my point is mostly that you made this big stuff on Carca and then your vote basically wasn't there when it mattered and instead you opted for your policy, and that in my experience it's very often for scum to try and hedge and try to seem like they are weighing all options then choose to vote the person not their partners in the end. There's very little you can say to try to change my mind about this, although I would like to continue to hear your thoughts. (And the strawman dosen't help)

I am very pro-policy lynch. That is not at all a secret. The site needs to me more willing to policy lynch players who act like Vedith did this game.

Not even sure what you want me to say. I made my case on Vedith as what little content he had was scummy. I defended attacks on my reads that Carcalilly was scum independently of Vedith and worked even better as a artner. I got my top scum read lynched when he outwardly refused to start giving reads or doing anything else productive.

First: A serious question. Do you scumread self meta, or are you just saying that as a buzzword?

Unprompted and used defensively, self-meta is a scum tell. Its funny especially in this game since we already saw scum using it as a defense. If its theory discussion its null.

[alban]

@Alban- I'm going to say right now I don't really think that "I sleepwalk through day 1" will cut is in terms of you having little motiviation to sort, because it sort of appears like you are TRYING to sort day 1 but just more floating while also trying to give the appearance that you aren't. Do you understand what I'm saying?


I understand your answer to the question regarding the ragequit, but I want to know why you were SO posesses to do it based on that. Do you usually get this angry in games?

"...appears like you are TRYING to sort...but just more floating..."

yeah, and that's what happens when you go against your playstyle. I must also mention that coasting through d1 costed me dearly as a town in my last game, which is why I decided to be more proactive in this game. It will take time to settle in. If you look carefully at d1, I was being quite proactive in the beginning, but then two things happened: Carcalilly held me to ransom regarding my self-meta and other points. Which was a shame really, coz I thought I am establishing my credentials and giving others a chance to examine my game more closely and carefully. The second thing that happened was vedith's claim which kinda uprooted any logical discussion that was happening, and instead took the game in a different direction. 4-5 pages were spent on discussing the validity of the claim, and it was so obvious to me that he fakeclaimed that I kinda lost interest.

I don't agree with Llama that Vedith was a good PL. PL are generally bad coz they are directed at town more often than not, and secondly, obviously Vedith had a plan as outlined by him by describing Carca's behaviour post the claim. I think lynching him was stupid, and anyone justifying that lynch is just high on ego not ready to accept that they made a mistake.

Yes, I am prone to outbursts, especially as a town. I have a very righteous attitude as a town, and that becomes a liability either when defending myself or defending my tr's coz my attitude becomes 'why the hell can't you see things for what they are' rather than understanding that only I know who I am or only I have access to my thoughts.

[MarioManiac4]

hello i'm probably going to look at vedith's reads now on people that arent tchill and carca and check if they are good
also tchill's i guess

[WhyMafia]

@Alban that's why there's something called UNVOTE
If you were so angry that Vedith was obvious town you should've unvoted and pushed for someone else's lynch. I don't buy you, not one bit. Sure, you were formulating cases against everyone, but you just needed one person that you believed to be scum. The fact that the voting was progressing that quickly should've alarmed you. And you hardly did anything early game to be warranted any form of town cred. And before I get called out for giving shade, I already explained his early game posts. His current posts are doing nothing to convince me otherwise. In hindsight, yes lynching him was a mistake. I'll admit that.

[WhyMafia]

I'm still convinced Alban is scum

Reasons

You can't be bothered to deal with "Low quality cases" to warrant any answer, I thought?
Oh I forgot to VOTE: Alban

In terms of WhyMafia, I think I have a pretty solid grasp on his meta. It would shock me if he flipped scum.

But you never saw my scum game

And @Mulch, in regards to this

Spoiler:

When I'm scum I usually just focus on when someone mentions me or my scumpartner, and not care about the rest of the game. ^

self

Quick question - is Self-meta a scumtell to you?

I can see scum using it more than town.

I still prefer Vedith but have increasingly no problem with Carcalilly lynch happening. What they have done this game almost perfectly describes their scum self-meta.

Both Vedith and Carcalillly are just different types of scummy.

Vedith is the "intentionally useless - adding clutter" type scum, who has done next to nothing but when they do actually start trying to play are really scummy for the most part, but with the amount of spam they add can essentially shrug off anything as a joke.

Carcalilly just seems to be detached from the game while still adding the "joking around" excuse to most of their stuff. For example they are voting alban, who apparently they thought was scum until the "fake claim" where they moved away and then forgot about moving away... and now two thirds of the way through day one are ready to "start taking things seriously".

Still think that Vedith is a slightly better lynch. Basically all they have done that shows any type of read is the joke claim, where they called a few played "confirmed town" and opened up a lynch pool without any sort of reasoning and followed through with it for enough time that it cant have been a joke that they were his scum reads. Trying to say things like "just trust me" and other statements along those lines do nothing to explain a read and at most can be reaction tests on others (but I somehow doubt there was that level of intent even if he is town). While I think most players would immediately see the claim as a joke, the fact that it was continued for so long still bothers me as there are a lot of newer players who might not be able to piece that together immediately.

Now he comes in with the Carcalilly vote late, when he basically ignored the role until I showed up and voted Vedith. First mention of them being scum since literally joke phases of the game, with no reason. It takes me starting to come down on Carcalilly before the vote shows up there.

@Carcalilly - Vedith read?
@alban - You haven't moved your vote in a long time. Still happy with it?
@MM - You aren't voting either major wagon. Basic thoughts on both?

Few other thoughts:

If Vedith or any of the players he notes as "cleared" are scum, I think Scorpious gains town points for recent posts.
One thing that is REALLY bugging me is that a lot of players seem to assume three scum. In 11P games it is very rare for there to be more than two scum. If we get to a F3 at any point, someone go back and read early thoughts to see who was implying three scum and give minor town/scum points accordingly.

So can we really just lynch Vedith? I somewhat trust that regardless of alignment Carcalilly will eventually produce some sort of reads and tells, Vedith is just backed into a corner and spouting WIFOM and trolling. What is the absolute best case with respect to Vedith here? Town that cant be trusted to contribute or make a pro-town move in the future?

Also, I initially didn't like Llama's statement about Scorpious either, but it's actually really smart - if Scorpious is scum with Vedith or one of Vedith's "clears," he knows for sure that the claim is a lie. And his posts really look like an inexperienced player who was caught off guard by the claim and feel for it. Does that make sense? That said, I agree that his play has been generally scummy.

Basically this. While I am not entirely sure if it was faked or not, scum would instantly know something is up if any of those four players is scum. If the exceedingly off chance that all are town though, while they may not know the correct approach moving forward they would know that something is wrong. Its a whole lot of WIFOM though as you have to start getting into theory of if players could intentionally present an ignorant approach to setup when they have additional information. Its basically a weaker version of the "player who forgets the open setup is town" tell.

It of course IS possible for it to be an 8:3 setup, but for that to happen you would need a very weak scum team and a stacked town. In the end you can balance it, but you are going to have a very swingy setup and its just not recommended.

Contains the stuff that's sort of giving like "here is some arguements for Vedith, here is for Carc" etc, and combined with the fact that they made that case on Carc and then ended up voting Vedith is bad.

I personally was stuck between them two myself, which is why I TR llama, as it kinda mirrored my dilemma. Which is also why my sheep looked scummy af I suppose xD

[WhyMafia]

Where's everyone at tho ;-;

[alban]

VOTE: WhyMafia

[WhyMafia]

[WhyMafia]

Come on Alban, tango with me!

[Steel]

My impression is llama or scorpious is the other scum here, though I'll go into why when I'm more sure. I suspected whymafia earlier but he seems to have stepped up.

It appears scorpious has siteflaked so I would seek to see a replacement first for now and judge further.

[MarioManiac4]

wasnt scorpious online like 5 minutes ago i am 99% sure he was

also i'm still thinking of what productive things to do because i am fairly lost right now everything i knew of this game was proven to be a lie n1

[Steel]

Also I'm not paying attention to the finer details for the moment but I believe alban is just noise.