Mini 1937 ~ Girls ♥ Girls 2: Mini's Apartment ~ Endgame

[nancy]

Votecount 1.20

Ahsoka Tano (5)

~ VNB National Plan, Heartless, Caryatid, Ginngie, camn

camn (2)

~ Ahsoka Tano, Spiffeh

Spiffeh (1)

~ NoticeMeSenpai

Prism (1)

~ Kmd4390

MaxwellPuckett (1)

~ Prism

Ginngie (1)

~ MaxwellPuckett

Not Voting (2)

~ Imperium, Polar Vortex

13 alive ~ 7 for majority.
Deadline Meter:

34%

[Polar Vortex]

Yo Ahsoka, you have 3 posts to convince me not to lynch you. Go go go
Yo Tammy, will you interact with my slot? You've said lots of vague things about us, but I can't really get a good read on you yet.
~Bearbert

[Ahsoka Tano]

Yo Ahsoka, you have 3 posts to convince me not to lynch you. Go go go
Yo Tammy, will you interact with my slot? You've said lots of vague things about us, but I can't really get a good read on you yet.
~Bearbert

Okay, well how about we don't count this one!

I'll be relevant tomorrow after a good sleep and I intend to make this a priority thread! I know you will understand me once I am here!!!

[Caryatid]

I googled what a BBw lesbian is. It brought up a bunch of links to bbw lesbian porn but didn't tell me what one is

Soft, voluptuous, zaftig, sensuous, curvy, rubenesque

[Prism]

Hate to do this to everyone yet again. This game takes priority #1 for catchup and I'll be here tomorrow or else replace out.

[Caryatid]

Spoiler: long camn quote

ur cute when you are agro.

I've been thinking about this post since yesterday.

camn, what were you trying to accomplish here?

This is a good question.
I just thought about it for a while... and though I am not sure I was totally consciously aware of it at the time.. I think the answer is as follows:

(side note.. this is gonna be a nuanced and personal post. please take it the right way)

So, Caryatid.. I know who you are and I know you have read some of my games.
I don't know if you have read them ALL though (I wouldn't put it past you).. so I will give you a little back story.

Here, on MS, there is a certain subset of players, I call them RAGEPLAYERS in my mind. Cowbells. Fate. Katsuki. Many Others.. They have/had a culture of sometimes insane ego-battles.. and for good or ill, they often dominate games with these battles.
Historically, I hope I have stood apart from them, but I have played a NUMBER of games with them, and in that culture/timeframe..and in fact I am closely associated with Katsuki in particular. The game Spiffeh quoted for meta was a camntsuki game. And I may, in my heart, have added to some of that anger-play in the past. Part of my partnership with Kats was to learn to play that way, and to deal with people who play that way without getting smashed to dust.

That said- I don't love that kind of play. (I never have.. which part of why camntsuki was born.) I feel like it is representative of something very male-manipulative, and reflective of the real world in many ways, especially when it comes to gender relations. In real life, men wouldnt speak to each other like this.. because fist-fights and murder would ensue. But they would talk to US this way.. and many times we would simply capitulate. OR we DO talk back... and fist-fights and murder ensue, only we never win.
This is also true, historically, here on ms.net. Often the men involved can handle the purifying flame of CAPSRAGE and hate.. and some of us (not all!) but some, we don't handle it well. We stop playing. we replace out. whatever. And almost always the game sucks.

ANyway- enter post 837

I like Spiffeh. But when I see signs of escalation into nonsense-land:

this is garbage.

....use this to further justify her awful vote on me.

YES BECAUSE THE BULLSHIT REASON YOU HAVE FOR REMAINING ON MY WAGON WAS AWFUL AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO GET AWAY WITH IT?

playerlist really shouldn't be amateur hour

I have a couple options.
1) I can, of course, egg him on. I could turn that into a total meltdown- but I don't think it is a good time for that, in this game. As above.. I don't know if, personally, I am in a place where I EVER think it is a good time anymore... but I admit there have been times when I did.
2) I can Ignore. This has an undesirable side-effect though. It sends the message that I can be bullied.. which I can't. There are no fists here, and no murder. Just the Lynch, and Spiffeh doesn't have the juice for that atm. OR...
3) I can Defuse.

My post 837 was a defusing post. I don't want to ego-battle Spiffeh right now. Maybe I don't ever. If it comes down to a 1v1, OF COURSE I will dance on his fucking grave.... but this game is young, Spiff is back in it and not lurking anymore... (the wagon accomplished that much, although I would have liked it to get to L-1)... and I think calming that shit down was the right thing to do.

So, my dear Caryatid, that is why.
And maybe, Spiff, this can give you some insight into where I am at too. Before you just go calling everything 'BAD" some more, and wondering why I am not camntsuki.

Camn, I really appreciate this answer and this context. It helps a lot. I have read some of your games but nowhere near all of them; the games of yours that I've read, I was generally following it because one of the players that I do read all their games was playing in that game so I read your posts too.

I had a pretty visceral reaction to that post originally because if I were to make a list of "shit guys say to me" then "You're so cute when you _____" would be pretty near the top especially because of the part after the blank but I don't want to get into it because that's a bit heavy for a mafia game and I'd rather leave it unsaid, but suffice it to say that I wasn't sure how much of my reaction to your post was about this game at all. If someone had said something like that to me I think I would've responded with claws out because I've been here before, I know where it goes, I know what comes next and fuck that but you're right that the context is completely different when a woman is saying it to man because it's taking their patronising shit and shoving it back at them and that context is matters a lot.

So I did read it initially as egging him on, not defusing, but a man wouldn't have the context for that, men don't get patted on the head and told how cute they are. And as for the rest of it yeah you're absolutely right, it's something I've been struggling with lately where we're screwed no matter what we do and I don't want to get into here because it's personal but what you're saying really struck a cord with me and it was something I needed to hear right now, so thank you for that.

[Prism]

Spiffeh's #756 and #757 feel overwrought to me. Reaction to mastina is starting to border on overkill-seeing me understand their frustration and townread it seems to have served as a green light for more of it to showboat. The Tammy paranoia comes across as pretty forced. #760 with camn also reads pretty off to me; I don't like the jump to malice on his part for camn's out of context quote.

Have since read a few more posts and still feeling pretty meh. Getting a range of frustration, unsure of their legitimacy/AI implication of such (particularly reaction to camn) but sure of their counterproductivity.

I have no fucking clue how to read Polar Vortex, none of their posts ever strike me. I need to ISO that slot. (Reading 758 is what's inspiring this)

Like Carya's answer about my suspicion that the NMS paranoia was faked to break into the townbloc. Will have a lot more to say about this slot later (namely the drawings). Also really like the acknowledgement of being detail-oriented as scum and understanding what I'm saying about the plausibility of such details being faked. (Again, point is that it is plausibly fake, not that they are scum for it). Really appreciate the drawing and description too, Carya-I find it

extremely

difficult to verbalize what I like about players and posts, and am really pushing myself to do better on this front, so the affirmation feels nice.

Disagree siginficantly with Carya's #790 despite understanding it. It's a valid point but the frustration from Max that Ginngie refuses to see their point, as a hard scumread, feels disingenuous to me still. Feels again like someone ready to flip that scumread on a dime, claiming to have understood now why they're wrong, and is just fearful of getting retaliation hardtunneled.

Stopping at 34 for now, because honestly I should have gone to bed instead of trying to read this game.

[Prism]

And honestly regardless of their alignments, the behaviors of Gin, camn, and mastina this game have been unacceptable and it's immensely frustrating that people are just letting them vote park me for fucking awful reasons and engage with NO ONE ELSE, while going after me for stuff like "oh why haven't you talked to TTH yet" or "how DARE you mention Tammy when she hasn't posted" or scum reading me for my sense of humor??

And when I do try to lay out my thoughts on these players they either aren't acknowledged or overlooked for reasons like "oh this involves other games which means it's irrelevant".

This playerlist really shouldn't be amateur hour and I am at a loss for how everyone is letting them get away with this.

You're here to grill/lynch scum not grill/lynch the worst players, dude. Divorcing the alignments here is atrocious.

[Polar Vortex]

Yo Ahsoka, you have 3 posts to convince me not to lynch you. Go go go
Yo Tammy, will you interact with my slot? You've said lots of vague things about us, but I can't really get a good read on you yet.
~Bearbert

Okay, well how about we don't count this one!

I'll be relevant tomorrow after a good sleep and I intend to make this a priority thread! I know you will understand me once I am here!!!

1/3. Last line sounds extremly fake btw so you've got to try harder

[camn]

Agree.

[Spiffeh]

It worries me that it took him that long to find his footing though. 19 pages. 3 days.

I don't think this should be a point of worry; sometimes it takes a while to find things you feel good talking about, and sometimes it just doesn't.

And it feels like he's accusing Ginngie of doing the same thing he's doing (taking potshots) and I know hypocrisy isn't a scumtell but there is a tactical use for hypocrisy where you accuse someone of what you're doing and then people can't call you on what you're doing because they'd just be parroting your words back to you and in people's minds it won't sound like an original point and I think Spiffeh knows it's scummy as shit to do nothing and snipe at people because he's been doing nothing and sniping at people.

This is pretty similar to a point that Tammy brought up with me earlier and I definitely agree that it's weird that he's so bothered by Ginngie doing a similar thing to what he's been doing; she also had concerns with him being comfortable his play being characterized as "badmouthing people" instead of trying to read people, and I think that the way he kind of took potshots at us and called it "engaging with us" and accused us of not engaging with him when we should have been was pretty weird but maybe not alignment indicative.

I'm still having trouble figuring out why you think the way I went after you and the way Gin handled me are at all comparable. My reason for scum reading you were not even mentioning me in your long catch up that addressed almost everyone else despite having me as what I understandably thought was your biggest scum read. I don't consider this a "potshot". The Tammy thing, despite everyone misrepresenting it as such, didn't come until later and didn't factor into my read on your slot at this time.

Gin responded to my read on you with some GIF meant to indicate that I was either stupid to think that are full of shit, and later called it an OMGUS read when it obviously had basis elsewhere. I consider these "potshots".

[Spiffeh]

I'm not sure if I asked this before but Spiffeh have you played with Mastin much?

Yeah I've played two of my more recent games with her. Haven't seen her as scum though.

[Spiffeh]

I don't like the.. like fake "I have something to do.. but I am waiting for CERTAIN CONDITIONS" thing.
What is that? And then the conditions... it's nothing game-related, but just 'lemme hear from Tammy and TTH'?

Its more like- Im gonna lurk like crazy, and hopefully soft some nonsense so I can get away with it for a while.

I thought that this was a good point to bring up as well.
I also think "I'm going to do nothing" is a counter-intuitive approach to being hyped to play with people that you respect is town - whenever I'm excited about working with someone (and I have time to do so), I'm normally

more

aggressive, not less aggressive - means that they'll be compelled to interact with me which means I'll be able to read them better, and it means that I'll form a view of the gamestate and I can see how these people I respect feel about the points that I'm picking up on.

First, I think anyone thinking I would try to lurk and fly under the radar as scum is just dreadfully unfamiliar with my scum game.

Again, I feel what's being misrepresented/ignored by camn is that Anti drew out the "I'm waiting for things to happen" response when he commented that I was bored. It wasn't something that I brought up myself to preemptively silence anyone that would point out my lack of contribution, like she's making it out to be. I think it's a normal reason to hop on my wagon initially but the way camn handled it seemed to me like she was setting me up to fail. And the way she kept coming back to the point without acknowledging my other stuff looked like she just needed something to justify her vote staying on me for basically the whole game.

[Spiffeh]

And that explanation for her vote on me didn't come until later. When I initially asked camn for her reasoning she said she was "sheeping". Her problem with my "build up" (that still barely exists btw) wasn't articulated until it became clear that her original reason wouldn't cut it. Why not mention that issue when I first asked her?

[Spiffeh]

Spoiler:

I explained why I was scum reading Imperium, you are welcome to give your thoughts on that.

I guess that reason doesn't really hold up now, I can buy that Nacho left me in a sort pile rather than a scum pile.

But the fact that you're discrediting the read as OMGUS without acknowledging my reasons behind it either makes you bad or scum, neither of which are acceptable.

Also, can you go into detail on why you're scum reading me? From what I've read you've opted to take potshots on the sidelines (mostly having to do with my Imperium read) rather than actually engage with me if your problem is that I'm "doing nothing". It feels to me that your "scum read" on me is coming more from a place that wants to appease/buddy mastina instead of solve the game. And since getting in her good graces was literally the only thing you tried to do as scum in Biochemistry that doesn't make me feel very good.

You're right that Gin's interactions with you up to this point can be characterized as taking potshots on the sidelines, but I don't think that's an unreasonable interaction when it was a read that mastina was taking point on/felt the strongest about. I don't think the potshots individually were unreasonable; her OMGUS observation was fine and the judge judy gif in response to you scumreading us when an eye roll directed at someone attacking one of her top townreads.

I think your "she's trying to buddy mastina" point is shallow - she loves playing with mastina so when mastina is playing the same game as her she tends to buddy her regardless of alignment - why are her interactions here "Ginngie trying to buddy" as opposed to "Ginngie playing with a friend"? I think this is a pretty weak point in general.

I think that your "you can't call the read OMGUS unless you talk about the reasons behind it" point is strange. Ginngie pointed out that the only read you gave all game was a scumread on us because of our (perceived) scumread on you, which isn't inaccurate at all - why did she have to do anything more than point out something that she saw?

OMGUS has always been a garbage tell. It's an easy way to ignore what people are saying or make them look bad without having to acknowledge the actual reasons behind the read, which is exactly what Gin did.

[Spiffeh]

Spoiler:

Uh, if I don't have anything to say about someone, I'm not gonna say it. As you should know from Biochemistry, I am perfectly capable of creating empty content and asking filler questions that look good as scum. I have no reason to do that as town.

This is the shit I'm talking about. If you'd like something from me, ask me specifically what you want me to talk about. I've only talked about Imperium because they're the only ones that have really done anything that pinged me (until now).

You can keep sitting pretty on my wagon without doing anything proactive to actually read me, or you can maybe ask me questions that will help you cement your read on me one way or another.

This just seems excessively obstinate. It's page 19, it's not incredibly unreasonable to assume that you have thoughts beyond "I think that Imperium is scum because Nacho had me on the bottom of his scumlist and didn't engage me", and railing against Ginngie for her not being specific enough in her requests when she just got done asking you for something (she's not interested in your thoughts on anyone in particular, she just wants to see what else you're thinking about) is again unreasonable. You're right that, at that point, all Ginngie was doing was chilling on your wagon, but the reason she was doing so seemed to be to pressure you into doing something (which was a stance that you didn't find unreasonable at all in 240).

I understand the intent behind making a push like this - you're trying to read people who are pushing your wagon - but it's causing this situation where people are voting you for not doing them and you're pushing them for not explaining their read on you good enough and that leaves me trying to parse weird interactions like this one.

I understand your point here but I'm not gonna make up opinions or feelings that I don't have to appease anyone. I do that as scum, I have no need to do it as town. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask Gin to point me in a direction she was interested in hearing my thoughts about. Ignoring this request seemed to me like she didn't really have any intention of reading me and was more concerned with looking like she was "pressuring" me.

[Spiffeh]

Sorry for quoting the whole post every time, if I wasn't on a phone I would only be quoting the parts relevant to my response.

~ I shall come to your assistance, dear Spiffeh. ~

[Heartless]

It wasn't something that I brought up myself to preemptively silence anyone that would point out my lack of contribution, like she's making it out to be.

ok. but you do see how it could be interpreted that way, right?

you did say you thought you were my secret scumread in that same post so it's very reasonable to think that the "wait and see" statement was a result of you thinking you were getting scumread

context

[Heartless]

And that explanation for her vote on me didn't come until later. When I initially asked camn for her reasoning she said she was "sheeping". Her problem with my "build up" (that still barely exists btw) wasn't articulated until it became clear that her original reason wouldn't cut it. Why not mention that issue when I first asked her?

the "sheeping" response was in 336. the explanation for what exactly u were waiting for came all the way in 490.

i can understand your basic point that you don't like that apparently what you were doing wasn't good enough for camn but don't cram in stuff like this, you're just cluttering the argument

[Heartless]

oh i've been meaning to ask

camn, what's your basis for townreading kmd? is it meta... or something else?

[Heartless]

i'd also kinda like to hear why you're scumreading vnb, camn. did you say already?

[Heartless]

NoticeMeSenpai
Imperium, Prism, Spiffeh, Ginngie, Caryatid
Polar Vortex
(VNB National Plan) <null zone, but rly want to be town
(camn, kmd) <null zone
Ahsoka Tano, MaxwellPuckett

new where i'm at

i've got my own issues w camn that i'd like to talk to her about. will put together a post after work

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh what was Mastina's read on you in bio?

Town

Through the entire game

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: mastina

[Spiffeh]

Oh

VOTE: NoticeMeSenpai

~ I will in fact count a "mastina" vote as a vote for the hydra. This vote therefore won't be counted, just like any redundant vote. ~