Newbie 1817 - Bolo (Game Over)

[GreyICE]

Not "without much encouragement". Within the SAME POST. One post, and yet Magpie reads differently in the summary than in the long explanation.

This only happens if Gorny changed his mind on how to read her while writing the post.

[Xa ligha]

I don't think it's weird to be worried that the IC is buddying the most active player (at the time).
I also don't think getting involved in every single discussion (especially when you disagree with the case) is productive, but I was happy to see where it went, at least it was activity and interaction (with regards to you and mothergorthel).

This feel like your issue with me stems from two things:
You're annoyed that I disagree with you.
I happen to be defending the person you're wagoning.

While not entirely unreasonable from your perspective, I think you really need to consider that you are wrong in both cases. MotherGothel could be scum but I'm not sold.
If you want a full breakdown about why I think the case is wrong I'd be happy to do so, I'm going out to dinner but will be back later.

Or you're scum ofc.

As a personal preference, and because you're not a newbie I'm not going to lay it out all formal-like. Don't fucking make shit up about why I'm doing something unless you want me to come rip your throat out and decorate the walls with your blood.

Not sure what you are trying to prove with this level of aggression, but it's super unnecessary.

[Xa ligha]

Fancy Pants, How did I answer your question super poorly other then add that I think aster is also scummy just less so then draynth?

At the time you just said your strongest read was aster without elaborating.

And if draynth hadn't pulled the stint he did maybe I would have gone into more depth. You wanted stronger scum reads when I didn't find anything nearly as fanning as everyone else nothing was hedged your just dumb

[Aster]

As a personal preference, and because you're not a newbie I'm not going to lay it out all formal-like. Don't fucking make shit up about why I'm doing something unless you want me to come rip your throat out and decorate the walls with your blood.

This is

not

a way to treat other players. I hope that what you're saying is entirely figurative and in-game, but the fact that that isn't completely obvious is worrying.

As a special reward for behaviour that's absolutely inappropriate for an IC (or anyone else), I shall issue a special-edition post on why you're scum.

[Aster]

Now this is an interesting use of motivational thinking. What motive would scum-me have to overlook her opening post? Surely it changes very little about what I would need to right. On the other hand, let us consider her reaction. She said "Alright, now we are getting into the meat of the game!" And this confirms to me 100% that she's scum.

Consider what I said about motivations. Scum want to avoid the lynch. The game doesn't begin for them until someone threatens to lynch them (or their buddy). Everything up until that point is not the important to them. The game doesn't start until votes move to them. And this matches a very common scum pattern. Scum often react to early votes and cases as if they are personal attacks, and begin debating. It's called "Oh my god! You suck!" (OMGUS) after a scum poster who literally posted those five words followed by a vote for the person who had just voted them. While the term can be misused - a vote might prompt a re-evaluation of a poster, and two feuding posters might both decide to vote each other at similar times - in this case she's played it to the letter.

I mentioned that according the IC rules, you would not tell lies about mafia facts and what constitutes "good play", so I cut you some slack and, though disagreeing with this post, presumed that you would follow the rules and at least believed what you were saying. Now let's forget that presumption.

The part about motivational thinking as rubbish, since MotherGothel already stated the purported motivation in her post. Did you read over it, or are you intentionally ignoring it?

The statement that her saying "getting to the meat of the game" implies 100% that she's scum is bullshit of the highest order. Are you misunderstanding her or misrepresenting her?

Finally, the claim about OMGUS coming from the mafia playbook is remarkable. I let this one slide because I'm not familar with the local meta which may be sheerly different compared to where I come from, but where I'm from OMGUS is not even remotely unique to mafia, to the point I've started to wonder whether it is even indicative of mafia at all. Is the meta here that different, or are you, like MotherGother claimed, abusing your position as IC to influence people to believe you?

As for my explanations, I admit that I am in a Catch-22. I explain how I play mafia, and I am also playing mafia, so my play matches my explanations. I do encourage others to think for themselves here - but I am also encouraging others to vote with me. It's a weird line I've seen other ICs walk, and now I get to try for the first time. So MotherGothel is 100% right - I am trying to use my experience to influence you to vote for her, but I am doing so because my experience leads me to believe she is scum.

This statement may as well be ripped from the Wiki, but it is nevertheless notable. If GreyIce was a townie, there wouldn't be a thin line or Catch-22 at all: all he has to do is being the best possible townie he can be while spreading lots of good mafia knowledge. The thin line only exists when GreyIce is mafia himself: then he has to be mafia and deceive town yet still help town with truthful and informative information.

The fact that GreyIce stated this correlates with him feeling like he's walking a thin line, which would imply that he's mafia.

[GreyICE]

As a personal preference, and because you're not a newbie I'm not going to lay it out all formal-like. Don't fucking make shit up about why I'm doing something unless you want me to come rip your throat out and decorate the walls with your blood.

This is

not

a way to treat other players. I hope that what you're saying is entirely figurative and in-game, but the fact that that isn't completely obvious is worrying.

As a special reward for behaviour that's absolutely inappropriate for an IC (or anyone else), I shall issue a special-edition post on why you're scum.

This game is based on the concept of vigilante justice, where you learn there's criminals in your town so you form an angry mob and hang someone from a nearby tree. Then if you're right you pat yourself on the back and if you're wrong... well, find a new victim, find a new tree. I'm downright tame in comparison to the theme.

As for the case, it's flat wrong. The tight line is between educating people in a neutral manner that lets them form their own opinions - but in a way that has informed the opinions I have - and telling people "I am right and this is the only way to play."

The part about motivational thinking as rubbish, since MotherGothel already stated the purported motivation in her post. Did you read over it, or are you intentionally ignoring it?

It's kind of obvious you don't believe her rationalization either, since you call it her "purported" motive.

Finally, the claim about OMGUS coming from the mafia playbook is remarkable. I let this one slide because I'm not familar with the local meta which may be sheerly different compared to where I come from, but where I'm from OMGUS is not even remotely unique to mafia, to the point I've started to wonder whether it is even indicative of mafia at all. Is the meta here that different, or are you, like MotherGother claimed, abusing your position as IC to influence people to believe you?

You know it's ironic you criticize the line post, but then you bring up that very line here. People should believe me because they believe my arguments. Or they should believe me because I am a very good player. Being the IC has nothing to do with it, and I've gone out of my way to try and separate that from my play. The fact you are having difficulty separating them yourself should tell you how much harder it is for someone writing the post.

Yes, OMGUS is scummy. Reacting with "I am going to win this argument" rather than "I want to find your alignment" is clear scum motivationals.

Spoiler: IC Note

Making a giant case and not following it with a vote is the wrong way to play. You can make cases without being convinced of their authenticity, but the purpose of doing so is to get a reaction. Not moving your vote with it removes any value to the play.

[GreyICE]

Now Aster, your vote is on Adimlh. This indicates he is your strongest scumread. What have you been doing in that regard?

[Aster]

It's kind of obvious you don't believe her rationalization either, since you call it her "purported" motive.

Of course I don't. But that doesn't mean you get to pretend it doesn't exist. She stated the purported motive, you pretended she didn't say anything about a motive.

Actually, seeing you go down this line of defence, are you implying that you

did

realise she stated a purported motive but decided to flat out ignore it because it was stupid?

Yes, OMGUS is scummy. Reacting with "I am going to win this argument" rather than "I want to find your alignment" is clear scum motivationals.

And this is blatantly false in the meta I'm used to (hint: unless you're a jester, getting yourself lynched is never in your or your faction's favour.) I'd be more likely to vote somebody spreading false information like this than somebody who OMGUSes. Your statement is almost on par with "this guy defends himself so he must be scum".

Now Aster, your vote is on Adimlh. This indicates he is your strongest scumread. What have you been doing in that regard?

I never said I'd be voting my strongest scumread, that's a suggestion you made up. And just because you suggested it doesn't make it a good policy. For example, one might want to not vote whomever they believe is scum to avoid a L-1 or a hammer. Moreover, voting can signify that you're serious about accusing somebody and demand a reply out of them, which gives cause to vote somebody who is not your greatest suspect. Also, it is a political tool that signifies how pushy you want to be; as soon as you cast it, you're at war with your target. One may be very suspicious of somebody but not vote to preserve the possibility of a calm discussion.

I voted adilm because I had serious concerns about him being mafia and I wanted to put pressure on him.

I considered switching my vote to MotherGothel but decided not to because (1) it'd move pressure to MotherGothel who already had enough of it while removing it from adilm who didn't have enough of it, (2) a major part for my suspicion on MotherGothel was the adilm/MG conspiracy, which gives no cause to vote one over another, (3) it would become painfully easy to claim an Aster/GreyIce conspiracy.

I considered changing my vote to you but decided not to because you would reply with something along the lines "This vote is clearly motivated by you being upset about my post. If you truly thought I was the scummiest player, you'd have written that way earlier. You're not supposed to vote whomever you think is the rudest person because rudeness does not correlate with scumminess."

But, if you insist I change my vote once in a while, here you go.

UNVOTE: adilm29h
VOTE: GreyICE

[GreyICE]

IC Note: Of course you should be voting your strongest scumread. Your vote is mechanically how you lynch a player. If your vote is on a player other than your strongest scumread you are mechanically aiding the lynch of someone you feel is less likely to be scum. This is simply poor play. There are occasionally reasons to vote someone other than your strongest scumread - if they've claimed a power role, if they are VLA/being replaced and unable to respond - but none of them apply here.

Moving your vote is indeed the correct play.

I considered switching my vote to MotherGothel but decided not to because (1) it'd move pressure to MotherGothel who already had enough of it while removing it from adilm who didn't have enough of it, (2) a major part for my suspicion on MotherGothel was the adilm/MG conspiracy, which gives no cause to vote one over another, (3) it would become painfully easy to claim an Aster/GreyIce conspiracy.

This is interesting. Do you still believe MotherGothel to be scum?

[Aster]

IC Note: Of course you should be voting your strongest scumread. Your vote is mechanically how you lynch a player. If your vote is on a player other than your strongest scumread you are mechanically aiding the lynch of someone you feel is less likely to be scum. This is simply poor play. There are occasionally reasons to vote someone other than your strongest scumread - if they've claimed a power role, if they are VLA/being replaced and unable to respond - but none of them apply here.

This is a blatantly false statement that further reduces your credibility as an IC. Let me add some more situations in which you should not vote your strongest scumread:

• You are nearing the end of the day and need to get a hammer on somebody to achieve No Lynch while the crowd has achieved a deadlock. Ideally you'd convince the majority to switch to your target, but humans may be stubborn and that course may seem hopeless. If you'd still rather lynch the bandwagonee than have a No Lynch occur, you may want to compromise.
• If somebody did something really suspicious and want more information from him, you may want to ask him an innocent-looking question before you state your case. As soon as you vote, the target will be alert, be careful with anything he tells you, and know what you intend to do with his answer. If you avoid startling him and appear friendly, he may not be aware of what you intend to do (or what he needs to say to avoid exposing himself) and trip himself up.
• You are a cop and know who is scum, but don't want to say it until you've collected a bit more information that allows you to have a go at getting somebody lynched without having to reveal your identity.
• Many other highly tactical reasons that are a bit too difficult for you to understand.

Your vote does not matter for the lynch until the end of the day or the hammer starts approaching. Until then, treat it as a scumhunting tool.

This is interesting. Do you still believe MotherGothel to be scum?

I did think she was scum, but more recently I become increasingly unable to distinguish her from being a plain old VI. Yes, she's using many stupid arguments, but does that make her scum? Does scum stand to gain something from stubbornly holding onto their stupid arguments? (Motivation?) Right now she looks as much as a VI as she does as a goon.

---

Also, you didn't answer one of my questions:

Actually, seeing you go down this line of defence, are you implying that you

did

realise she stated a purported motive but decided to flat out ignore it because it was stupid?

Of course, not that I stated my hostile attitude, you should be able to figure out how you should answer that question, because there might be only one answer that doesn't result in you getting figuratively roasted. (♪ keeping up with the theme ♪)

[MotherGothel28]

IC Note: Of course you should be voting your strongest scumread. Your vote is mechanically how you lynch a player. If your vote is on a player other than your strongest scumread you are mechanically aiding the lynch of someone you feel is less likely to be scum. This is simply poor play. There are occasionally reasons to vote someone other than your strongest scumread - if they've claimed a power role, if they are VLA/being replaced and unable to respond - but none of them apply here.

Moving your vote is indeed the correct play.

I considered switching my vote to MotherGothel but decided not to because (1) it'd move pressure to MotherGothel who already had enough of it while removing it from adilm who didn't have enough of it, (2) a major part for my suspicion on MotherGothel was the adilm/MG conspiracy, which gives no cause to vote one over another, (3) it would become painfully easy to claim an Aster/GreyIce conspiracy.

This is interesting. Do you still believe MotherGothel to be scum?

Regarding where people should place their votes: nope. A vote is the only tool most townies have, so they should take the time we have to use that tool. Apply pressure wherever they see fit (make it convincing) and see how people react to it. That tool is clearly already in play in this game, but I'm not sure why you're ignoring it. It's a great way to get a better read on a player you are unsure about.

[MotherGothel28]

Also, man, y'all are viscous. Just because I hold a different opinion than you on a player doesn't make me or my arguments stupid.

[Xa ligha]

VOTE: Draynth

Still think him trying to find out if the mafia thread was open to figure out wether adhim could've been coached into the gambit all while trying to earn towncred by doing the same thing is scummy.

[Xalxe]

Vote Count 1.6

Worse than having too many secrets is having no secrets at all.

MotherGothel28 (2)

: GreyICE, adilm29h

FancyPants (2)

: Draynth, Gorny

GreyICE (2)

: MotherGothel28, Aster

Gorny (1)

: FancyPants

Draynth (1)

: Xa ligha

Not Voting

: FrozenMagpie

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-08-25 17:33:16)

FrozenMagpie has failed to pick up the prod, I will begin searching for a replacement.

[Xalxe]

cd

replaces FrozenMagpie, please welcome them!

[FancyPants]

@Aster, you might be onto something with regards to GreyIce, but I don't believe any IC on this forum comes into a Newbie game and spreads mis-information to further their win condition.
He may be scum but I that just doesn't happen on Mafia Scum, I actually agree with you that OMGUS isn't a scum tell and may even be a town tell in newbies, but that doesn't mean someone can't have a differing opinion. You can disagree with GreyIce but that doesn't mean he's generating bad information for scummy purposes.

@Mothergothel can I get an update on your scum reads?

@CD, hi welcome to the game, please share your scum reads when you are ready.

@Xa Light, Can you elaborate on post 262 specifically why you believe his behaviour is more likely to be scum motivated?

[cd]

I dislike adilm29h's opener (37, 39) for fairly obvious reasons. I also dislike how Gorny felt the need to welcome adilm29h in the following post (40), he could have just answered the question and moved on—the welcoming just seems forced (especially when you consider he didn't welcome or say hi to anybody else).

(43, 69) are two other posts I don't like. I don't understand how adilm29h's post could be seen as a town tell. Anyone who has used a forum in the past would know that most users usually have small titles like that under their name and unless he hasn't used a forum before—which I highly doubt—his post was forced. Even if he really thought that people's roles were written under their names, don't you think he would have went 1 page back and named every people who had "goon / mafia" under their name (FancyPants & Gorny) and called it GG?

Sure, he did vote FancyPants, however it was with "reason"—(37). But, in post 63 he added "obviously he has goon under his name" (keyword: obviously) as a reason for suspecting FancyPants, however Gorny also has "goon" under his name and adilm29h never said anything about that until it was brought up (67). If it's so "obvious", then why didn't he call the scum team to be FancyPants & Gorny at that point?

One last thing about adilm29h that seems forced is post 55. No one answered his question, yet in future posts (124, 167, 191) he went and called people scum/scummy and pointed out his scum-reads.

[adilm29h]

I dislike adilm29h's opener (37, 39) for fairly obvious reasons. I also dislike how Gorny felt the need to welcome adilm29h in the following post (40), he could have just answered the question and moved on—the welcoming just seems forced (especially when you consider he didn't welcome or say hi to anybody else).

(43, 69) are two other posts I don't like. I don't understand how adilm29h's post could be seen as a town tell. Anyone who has used a forum in the past would know that most users usually have small titles like that under their name and unless he hasn't used a forum before—which I highly doubt—his post was forced. Even if he really thought that people's roles were written under their names, don't you think he would have went 1 page back and named every people who had "goon / mafia" under their name (FancyPants & Gorny) and called it GG?

Sure, he did vote FancyPants, however it was with "reason"—(37). But, in post 63 he added "obviously he has goon under his name" (keyword: obviously) as a reason for suspecting FancyPants, however Gorny also has "goon" under his name and adilm29h never said anything about that until it was brought up (67). If it's so "obvious", then why didn't he call the scum team to be FancyPants & Gorny at that point?

One last thing about adilm29h that seems forced is post 55. No one answered his question, yet in future posts (124, 167, 191) he went and called people scum/scummy and pointed out his scum-reads.

Even though no one answered my question I figured that scum meant being mafia or goon just by reading others posts.

I think gorny was just welcoming me because this is my first time here, where no one else claimed it was their first time.

Let me also tell you that no i had no clue that the name under meant nothing. Was just a simple question and i just kept posting with my thought flow. I just decided to wait for the answer to my question before accusing everyone. And I knew fancy pants had goon in my reason but as I said that was not my main reason for lynching someone otherwise i would have brought other people's names up.

[adilm29h]

I would like to change my vote
UNVOTE: MotherGothel28
VOTE: GreyIce
GreyIce's profanity and irrational behaviour must tell me that he is some power role. For if it was something helping the town, I feel like he would have spoken differently. But I feel like he is Mafia, for a townie would have no reason to add swearing and be hostile.

[cd]

Why do you feel a townie would have no reason to swear and/or be hostile?

[Gorny]

I dislike adilm29h's opener (37, 39) for fairly obvious reasons. I also dislike how Gorny felt the need to welcome adilm29h in the following post (40), he could have just answered the question and moved on—the welcoming just seems forced (especially when you consider he didn't welcome or say hi to anybody else).

Oh hai CD

[FancyPants]

I would like to change my vote
UNVOTE: MotherGothel28
VOTE: GreyIce
GreyIce's profanity and irrational behaviour must tell me that he is some power role. For if it was something helping the town, I feel like he would have spoken differently. But I feel like he is Mafia, for a townie would have no reason to add swearing and be hostile.

Hmmmm.

Usually I find this kind of thing to be a pretty big scum tell, I don't feel like townies are too concerned with who may or may not be a power role, but scum are constantly looking out for it.

CD makes a few good points about adlim as well.

As a general side note, the most terrifying thing for scum is a unified town, let's all try to be less toxic and try and see each others points of view more (myself included).
As townies it can be hard since we don't know who to trust but try to remember that 75% of the player base is on your team.

[Draynth]

@Adilm
Generally the less talk of PR's day 1 the better, as FancyPants said scum are generally trying hard to find the PRs to kill them, it's best not to give them any help with that.

Sorry for the lack of content on my part, as an SE I shouldn't be lurking this much. I've just found this game hard to get into which happens, so I'll do my best to get more engaged.

I see a lot of people are scumreading MotherGothel, is there a summary I can read already posted as to why people think this?

Welcome CD, I see you are scumreading Adilm. Are you scumreading anyone else? Are you townreading anyone in particular?
Also just addressing your last point in 266, don't you think it's plausible that Adilm would A) google what the terms meant after no-one directly answered him? After all he uses the terms over 70 posts later. B) GreyIce kind of addresses what 'scum' means in his opening IC post, I'd say that was enough to either work out what scumread meant or to then be prompted to find out for himself. The fact that you're scumreading him for this feels scummy to me. Seems like you think he is scum and are finding evidence to support that theory instead of the other way around

[FancyPants]

@Adlim, what's your experience with the game, meaning what site did you play mafia at before and was it forum mafia, or are you a town of salem convert?

[adilm29h]

This is my first time playing forum Mafia. But i have played maybe a whole of 10-15 times in real life.
I am not talking about By power role I meant he is a Mafia, not trying to find who he is or anything, just commenting on GreyIce's play style.

And i feel a townie wouldn't be hostile or swear because he has no reason to bring in profanity to emphasize his point. Seems some what mafia like to do that.