Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[Chip Butty]

Damn! Forgot grapes again. Sorry, grapes. Second tier.

[Luca Blight]

I was planning to make a reads list but I'm now thinking there's little point - due to the amount of 'lurkers' in this game most of us seem to be on the same page, barring one or two.

The way I see it is something like this:

Not lynching today:

Realeo
Chip Butty
GameNBurger
Mulch
Alchemist21
grapes
CommKnight

Possible lynches:

Assemblerotws
ironstove
IceGuy
Duckworth
UnaBombaH

Now that's not to say I think the top list is Townie and bottom scummy, but just what seems viable and not viable between now and deadline.

If I had to order it in terms of preference I'd probably go for something like:

Lynch

IceGuy
Duckworth
Assemble
Iron
Una

Don't lynch

[IceGuy]

I'm pretty sure this is NAI. I mean, I think the smile gives away that he is saying that as a joke?

NAI?

Also, there are no jokes in Mafia, just as there are no facts. Every word can be analyzed.

No, you are not getting away with this bullshit.
You do not even read what I write about you if you say something like this.
I. DO. NOT. THINK. YOU. ARE. SCUM. FOR. VOTING. ME.
I think you are scum because of the "reasoning", or better yet, the lack of it.

You're writing several paragraphs regarding my reasoning and still say I'm scum because there is a lack of reasoning?

And you are the leading expert on the usefulness of them, eh?

Yes.

"Three reads carry over" - go figure. I read someone as such and such...and I'm being consistent?!?

You did not seem to incorporate any new information in the new reads despite there being a wealth of it.

"five players are read on gut" - worse than your "better lynch lurkers, so that I get more time fabricating reads"? I need time to solidify those reads, sure, but my gut has been right before.

Your gut has very likely also been wrong before. Gut reads at this point of the game are useless because we can't analyze them.

"Mulch for the catch-up" - you think it meant literally "for catching up"? It means that I liked his catch-up post. You know, the one where he had the spoiler titled "the catch up" or something like that..?

I know what you mean, but you didn't say why you liked the catch-up post, which would make it a useful read.

"many have said the same about Realeo" - Who? Where? If someone used the same exact words or reasonings, then good on them, because I think that is some smart reading.

Don't be deliberately obtuse - nobody used the same exact words and I never claimed that. It's just that pretty much everybody (including me) considers Realeo genuine, so your read does not add anything to the game. This wouldn't be a problem if this wouldn't hold for all your reads.

You find arguments against me from what everyone else posts, and then claim that I DO NOT HAVE ORIGINAL THOUGHTS?

I'm finding arguments against you based on what you post, not what everybody else posts, and what you post doesn't contain anything original.

---

Possible lynches:

Assemblerotws
ironstove
IceGuy
Duckworth
UnaBombaH

The whole peanut gallery of lurkers. ironstove, Assemblerotws, Duckworth/Riddleton. I'm not going to rank them because they're equally useless. UnaBombaH at least posts but I don't like what I'm seeing. Since there is a wagon on him by a player I consider towny, I'm going to vote him VOTE: UnaBombaH, and hereby express my intention to vote any of the other three if a wagon will form.

I don't like the reasons for this vote or the position he is conveying either - he's focusing on the lurkers who are the easy targets for the lynch. He doesn't care which of them is lynched and has made it clear he will switch to any of them if a wagon forms. Basically this just looks opportunistic to me.

Presented without comment.

[Realeo]

I'm pretty sure this is NAI. I mean, I think the smile gives away that he is saying that as a joke?

NAI?

Not Alignment Indicative.

Also, there are no jokes in Mafia, just as there are no facts. Every word can be analyzed.

Oh, good luck with that.

[Luca Blight]

Possible lynches:

Assemblerotws
ironstove
IceGuy
Duckworth
UnaBombaH

The whole peanut gallery of lurkers. ironstove, Assemblerotws, Duckworth/Riddleton. I'm not going to rank them because they're equally useless. UnaBombaH at least posts but I don't like what I'm seeing. Since there is a wagon on him by a player I consider towny, I'm going to vote him VOTE: UnaBombaH, and hereby express my intention to vote any of the other three if a wagon will form.

I don't like the reasons for this vote or the position he is conveying either - he's focusing on the lurkers who are the easy targets for the lynch. He doesn't care which of them is lynched and has made it clear he will switch to any of them if a wagon forms. Basically this just looks opportunistic to me.

Presented without comment.

....

Now that's not to say I think the top list is Townie and bottom scummy, but just what seems viable and not viable between now and deadline.

[Realeo]

This is your town captain speaking. A quick reminder that we are playing Mafia, not the Apprentice. Thank you!

[Realeo]

@Iceguy

What do you think of this info?

@UnaBombaH When someone have a play style change, something happen that motivates the play style change. What happened?

I'm very good at face-to-face Mafia.
I only joined this site this summer, and I have since won two games and lost six. (although, the six losses have all been replacements in, I think.. )
I tried to figure what I'm doing wrong/correct before this game started, and I also realized that this game has only two(?) players I have played with previously, so I thought now is a good time to test things out.

On this site, my playstyle has always been about provoking others to commit/disengage and force interactions.
I like to fuel conversations, and pretend to be even more paranoid than I actually am (I mean I am, but not to the extent I seem to be)
Some players have therefore called me "mislynchable" or even "lynchbaity", but my gutreads have often been correct.
I base most of my reads on interactions between other players, less on singular posts, but I can do that too.
This is why D1 is always hard for me: the start is often slow, and people are trying NOT to seem scummy at all.
So I decided to go a different route with my newer games: I try to draw attention to myself early game without being outright scummy, and try to gather as much reads before N1 as possible.
Then depending on the NK, I believe I can have a very solid vision on who might be scum.

In the games where I join as replacement, I often get guiltied into changing my reads by more experienced players, because they devalue my logic or reads, but I have turned out to be correct multiple times now (even if I have failed in presenting the case).
So now I have also decided to stick to my reads if I'm feeling confident on them, and then just face the consequences if I miss.
I feel confident in IceGuy being scum.

[Chip Butty]

This is your town captain speaking. A quick reminder that we are playing Mafia, not the Apprentice. Thank you!

YOU'RE FIRED!!!!

[IceGuy]

@Iceguy

What do you think of this info?

I do not believe him that his behavior makes him town.

[Realeo]

I don't even think he is saying that his behavior is making him town, IceGuy.

My question is that given this info, does this info change the way the variable works?

Try again, please.

[IceGuy]

I don't even think he is saying that his behavior is making him town, IceGuy.

What else is he saying?

[GameNBurger]

Alright I am back and classes are going over syllabuses for some stupid reason as if I can't read

Now I see this game isn't moving very fast fortunately for me

5 bucks says it's not much more in here than chip, ice guy, raelo, Luca, maybe grapes participating in the last 10 pages

Let me see what's going on

[GameNBurger]

187 learn to formulate your voice better, I'm not sure your snark gets a point across here

Also while I have you chip, I'm generally not in favor of people who think that talking about the game is scummy. That being said Raelos suggestion of using a numbered scale rather than words is stupid as well, and his smug tone does nothing to further his point either. I can understand what you probabaly were trying to say, which is that his idea wasn't real a relevant problem and thus his suggestion to "fix" a nonsensical problem is scummy, but I think your way of phrasing it as "people who talk theory are usually scummy" is unhelpful and often anti town, town works best when people can talk about anything, restricting conversation by saying a topic is inherently scummy to discuss (other than pr hunting) is limiting towns effectiveness. That's my two cents in the matter.

Comm writes a well structured read list. Please everyone copy this.

End of anything interesting page 8. I'm going by page by the way. Bear with me.

[Chip Butty]

One other thing...the squabble over what position i was in the top tier of someone's readlist is ridiculous. Please stahp.

[Alchemist21]

On this site, my playstyle has always been about provoking others to commit/disengage and force interactions.
I like to fuel conversations, and pretend to be even more paranoid than I actually am (I mean I am, but not to the extent I seem to be)
Some players have therefore called me "mislynchable" or even "lynchbaity", but my gutreads have often been correct.

I only give this a skim and this seems to check out.

In the games where I join as replacement, I often get guiltied into changing my reads by more experienced players, because they devalue my logic or reads, but I have turned out to be correct multiple times now (even if I have failed in presenting the case).

Ah. Good time. I remember in my first Newbie game, I go head-to-head with a SE which is a confirmed-town in a MYLO with me choosing the right mafia. Did not back down, fortunately.

Did you see any times where Una fluffed until called on it and then claim it was his plan all along?

[Chip Butty]

Do you always get your #1 scumread lynched? Don't you see the point in compromising?

Isn't it too early to compromise? I personally would only compromise during deadline or people are starting to tunnel.

I haven't changed my vote from UnaBombaH and I currently do not intend doing so (especially with his first "content" post, which is basically OMGUS). I still hope the UnaBombaH wagon goes through.

However, if the UnaBombaH wagon falls apart and there's a wagon on any of the other three (and they do not start being towny posters), I will immediately switch. I would also switch back if there's a UnaBombaH wagon after all and he doesn't suddenly start to become town.

Read list:

Town: Chip Butty/Alchemist/Realeo
Leaning town: Luca/CK/grapes
Neutral: Mulch/GNB
Leaning scum: ironstove/Duckworth
Scum: Assemble/UnaBombaH

I tend to capitalize when I'm referring to a specific faction and not capitalize when just using the generic town/scum terminology. First time someone's found that scummy, though memorably not the first time I've had people calling me scum over capitalization. Not pulling a stunt like that again anytime soon...

Thanks for posting! Anything else to say?

The issue is that I am not sure what is your definition of constructive

Constructive in that context is: Contributes to the game with a town mindset, which involves a honest approach to discussion.

Iceguy why do you tr Chip?

Question has already been answered. I believe he does things wrong, but he comes from a towny position.

That's irrelevant as it neither applies to you nor me so far.

You've stated you're willing to compromise on lynching players who currently have zero votes.

Yes. If the person I want to lynch most doesn't get lynched, and any of the other would.

Why shouldn't I mention it in my post? It's factual, and I'm not going to waste my time justifying it to you.

As I said, you're squirreling away. This is not town behavior. In Mafia, you don't just state a fact.

Read list:

Assemblerowts

- Powerlurker. Only post that is not RVS or answers a question coming from RVS is a reply to my post. No reads, no content, and there's this strange capitalization. Even if he's not scum for some reason, town improves by getting rid of him.

Scum, will vote if wagon forms

Realeo

- Contributes constructively, uses meta to his advantage. A bit arrogant, but partly justified because he's mostly posting things that are true.

Town

Chip Butty

- Calls out UnaBombaH and Duckworth, people I consider to be in the scum/powerlurker category. Generally is not averse to starting wagons and often (not always) has good reasons for it.

Town

GameNBurger

- At first, he did contribute, however he's now firmly in lurker territory. #138 is a good post, if he'd kept up posting things like this, he'd be town. I believe he has RL issues, so I'm not going to sort him in the scum category.

Neutral

ironstove

- Completely useless player. No content at all which makes it hard to form reads.

Leaning scum or useless town, will probably vote if wagon forms

Luca Blight

- Changed my read because of his refusal to answer a simple question. In #304, he says Chip is "first name on [my] Townie list". In #308, I tell him that the order in the list has no significance, in #312 he says he was aware of it. Yet, he repeatedly claims that he "just posted a fact" and refuses to say why he posted it (#317, #337).

Leaning scum, will probably vote if wagon forms

DuckWorth

- Mostly lurker with a vote that reeks of OMGUS. Needs to post more and not just about Chip.

Leaning scum or useless town, will probably vote if wagon forms

Mulch

- SmoothBlue never posted outside of RVS and I simply can't read Mulch.

Neutral

Alchemist21

- Used to be the most constructive and interesting to read player in the game, however I feel he's been coasting recently, which changed my read. There's this nagging voice in my head that says he just tried to build up towncred, now got enough and plans to coast until a mislynch.

Leaning town

grapes

- Had a bad start but has evolved into a player that could post more but when he posts, is insightful and seems honest.

Leaning town

CommKnight

- See Alchemist. Was the first to post a comprehensive read list, but has contributed little since than.

Leaning town

UnaBombaH

- I believe I have already talked about this.

Scum, currently voting

My assessment of IceGuy has changed a bit since going over his ISO again. I...kinda find IceGuy's readlists to be fairly good. My main point of disagreement is with the Luca scumread here. While i think those two are squabbling over trivia, i think the fact that he keeps picking fight with someone who seems widely townread is more towny than scummy. Okay a lot of this stuff isn't wildly original but it's d1 in a slow game, so there's not huge amounts of material yet. He's being combative with both Luca and Una and, while this is something scum can do, again it pushes him toward town for me. He's not hesitating to get clear reads on the record too. So nothing conclusive but i can't find a whole lot to hate. I'm going to move him to townlean, second tier.

I'm largely in agreement with Luca's division into lynchable and u lynchable with now the exception of Ice and noting Mulch as a norderline case. I still think Duckworth is scum but i don't particularly want to lynch a lurker d1, so i think i am going to

UNVOTE: VOTE: UnabombaH

In addition to reasons already stated, his lynch might shed light on his association with Ice at some point. Not supwrscummy, but probably our best option.

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Updated.

Slow game. Hopefully the lurkers will get their shit together.

[Chip Butty]

I messed up the quoting there, but nothing substantial^

[Mulch]

A large amount of Ice's reads list are activity based. You like that Chip?

[Mulch]

I don't know. On one hand I can see where he is coming from with each one; on the other hand, it's the sort of shallow, mechanical thinking that scum do a lot, with emphasis on people that are contributing and engaged. Town can be dumb and read people for this but scum can easily fake this too.

[CommKnight]

Also, there are no jokes in Mafia, just as there are no facts. Every word can be analyzed.

Welcome to a VI read.

187
Comm writes a well structured read list. Please everyone copy this.

I just don't have time to fuck around with read lists. I will say what I believe and why when I can. Plus it's much easier for me to put everything together at once during free time. Otherwise I can get a few lines out only when I'm busy.

On a side note, had a very successful day today in what I'm working on plus had my first date in over 2 years now. Which was nice since I got zilch time for that stuff usually.

[Mulch]

GameNBurger's recent two posts are bad imo. Willing to change wagons to him.

I'm generally not in favor of people who think that talking about the game is scummy.

He then goes on to post fluff and theory.

Town does fluff, scum does fluff- fluff isn't allignment indicative on an invididual post basis, only as a volume read. But I am getting the feeling that he is subtly implying that he should not be scumread for what he is doing/is going to do...

[Mulch]

I feel as if 427 may be coming from someone that has the perspective that Una is town. Specifically, the "your gut could be wrong" line is not something you would usually say to someone that you think is scum; you would say the "gut read" is bullshit. Another red flag is "agreeing" or "understanding" some of the points and yet still continuing to push with the same level of confidence. You have conf biased on Una.

Town can conf bias but I have noticed that scum are much more aware of how this can be perceived and are more likely to do the "well, I do agree with point 1" thing and then

not change the severeity of the read

. I believe the towny reaction is to ease up on the scumread if you can go into their mindset or like a certain post...the scum reaction is to point this out to make it seem like you are considering but not actually consider.

[Chip Butty]

A large amount of Ice's reads list are activity based. You like that Chip?

I don't hate it d1 in a game as slow as this.

Good to see you getting involved, whatever your alignment. Might liven things up a bit. Inb4 pocketing.

[Mulch]

Begging for town reads is not towny behavior, being useful to town and getting read as town is.

Technically correct in theory, but scumreading someone for "anti-town behavior" instead of "likely to be scum" behavior is not a good look imo.