Micro 746: The Deco Murders - Game Over!

[Gorny]

Re: Sunlit Diamond

I don't agree with what he said in 36, specifically the point about Inferno being on an RVS wagon that he started. If it's RVS and a vote on someone is pure randomness, the wagon forms if and when someone else adds a second vote. In this case, the started of the wagon would then be Acid, for voting me in 17. Had Inferno voted me at some point later on with some reason or a valid scum read, it would be a different story. That said, saying that Inferno started the wagon at this point is a lie and I'm now scum reading Sunlit for it.

First person on wagon = person who started wagon. Not a lie. Statement of fact.

Odd that you would blow it out so much though.

Not in my eyes.

Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

[Gorny]

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

One problem with that there post...I'm not overreacting. You are.

[Sunlit Diamond]

Not in my eyes.


Clarification, I agree with you on first person starting the wagon, I don't agree with that in an RVS situation.

A difference of opinion does not justify the level of falsehood you accused me of. Why the overreaction?

One problem with that there post...I'm not overreacting. You are.

If you mean I'm responding to something you said about me? Yeah, I s'pose so. I don't see any harm in getting clarification.

[Gorny]

What do you want clarified? I was as clear as can be.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1-3

The Paramount's vaulted grand lobby is nearly as visually overwhelming as the theater itself.

TywinL

(2): Sunlit Diamond, Inferno390

Sunlit Diamond

(2): Gödel, Gorny

Inferno390

(1): TywinL

acidphoenix

(1): Raya36

Vijarada

(1): Not_Mafia

Gorny

(1): acidphoenix

Raya36

(1): Vijarada

Not Voting

(0):

No one

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: October 19, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2017-10-18 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Gödel v/la from Oct 11-16
-

[Vijarada]

this game is already garbage

[Vijarada]

1. You never asked me if Vij could do it as town. You just jumped on my case and said that "I was scum."
WTF?? Yes I did. Go read my posts again.

2. Raya did not "literally debunk" that by saying that it's actually NAI. She said, as you quoted your self, "I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before." He did not say is was or was not NAI. Only you. In fact, He said that I might have a point. So stop shoving words down Ray's throat.
"I have seen town do similar things to this before" = NAI. If either alignment can do it. It makes absolutely no sense to say something is scummy whereas town could do it too.

3. You're pitching a fit that I said "there is definitely more evidence needed," yet you say that I won't even consider that "Vij could also do it as town." Which is exactly what "it's way too early to tell what the reasoning behind Vij's self-vote" means (Post #42 if you want to check that)
I have already told you, there is no reasoning. It's just RVS. You are trying to jump to conclusions but there is absolutely nothing to conclude.

4. You have just said that I was scum (again, you want to check, post #34).
I outlined why I think you are scum in post 47.

5. I have never actually said that Vij was scum. I fact, I haven't even voted for her as scum yet. I just FoS. So you're making a giant fuss over an FoS, which literally means, "I think you're suspicious, but I don't want to move my vote to you yet."
You said that it was scummy, which was good enough for me. But whatever.

6. Why the heck are you defending him? Vij on his part has voted for himself and then lurked this entire time, refusing to defend himself, and all you've done is defend him to attack me. Classic Chainsaw defense. So, if it turns out that Vij is scum, you make for a pretty swell looking scumbuddy.
I am not defending him. I am questioning your logic and I do not like your reasons. Also lmao, glad that I'm the scumbuddy now. Notice how I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia voting Vij?

1. You'll tell me that you did it, but then not quote a post. And I can't find any post that asks that question.
2. No, that means that there's no way to conclude if he is actually scum or not. Not that what he did isn't scummy, which is all that I've been saying this entire time. Just because town players can do it too doesn't mean that it's not scummy. Town can lie about their role in a gambit attempt too, but that doesn't make THAT any less scummy.
3. I haven't jumped to a conclusion. I just said the post looked scummy. Hence the FoS instead of a vote change.
4. What you said in post #47 is not only hard to read, but can be summarized as "I don't like that you FoS'ed Vij, and I don't like the fact that you're agreeing that he can't be definitely defined as scum, so therefore, you're scum." So no, you have not given a reason for as to why I'm scum, you just don't like my arguments for why his post is scummy.
5. It does look scummy. But so does attacking me with no real reason, acidphoenix jumping on Gorny's wagon, or plenty of other things that have happened so far in this game or will happen in this game. And again, you just took me saying it looked scummy as an excuse to attack me, which looks a whole lot scummier than me using FoS to say I don't think that what Vij is doing is in town's best interests, so that looks scummy to me. You have no real reason to be attacking me.
6. So you're telling me that you don't care about Not_Mafia's vote, but you sure as heck are all over me for my FoS. That makes less sense than using the Chainsaw Defense! And all you've done is attack me by saying that there is no real evidence for Vij's post to look even remotely scummy. That's called defending. The definition of defense is literally "an argument in support or justification" (Merriam Webster, definition 3b). So yes, you have done nothing but defend his self-vote and then used that as a base to attack me.

In light of all of this, you now look even scummier than Vij! Good job! You've earned yourself a wagon!
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TywinL

This guy is giving me townvibes all over the place like...holy shit does this not read as a scum jump. This looks so much like town with no experience who's absolutely confident they've caught scum red-handed. He found a fucking dictionary definition! This is like...exactly how I have behaved in the past when I've thought I was super on to something as town. Scum would never have contrived this kind of a case this early.

Having said that, please stop posting.

[Vijarada]

my current vote is for VOTE: Raya36 pretty scummy imho.

Interesting, why? I am currently leaning town on Raya.

She's asking a lot of questions. That's fine obviously, lots of mafia players do. But they seem to have no direction at all right now. And that's a common hiding mechanism. Especially when it's not combined with actually talking about the answers to those questions, and asking them for good reason.

And look at the language she uses here.

Fair enough. Your statement would be more powerful with a vote but if you think that your vote is better where it is now than that is fair.

Equivocating.

Maybe you're right but he just seems genuine to me. This post here does seem a bit overdefensive though.

Equivocating.

Just to clear this up what I'm saying is that self-voting in rvs alone is NAI but with more evidence and insight on motivation etc, etc, you could potentially have a point.

Equivocating.

I'm not incredibly forceful but uh... this wagon is a good one guys. Please join it. I really want this wagon to get bigger.

[Gorny]

@Vijarada regarding your vote on yourself: Are you doing what I think you're doing? Do you know anyone with an Oriental name?

Please answer yes or no and nothing more than that.

[Vijarada]

i have no idea what u think and uh...yeah i know chinese people we're pretty multicultural in this country.

i literally voted myself bc its a fun way to get out of rvs. i am willing to swear that it in no way is any kind of breadcrumb, masterful plan, or silly role-related shit.

[Gorny]

i have no idea what u think and uh...yeah i know chinese people we're pretty multicultural in this country.

i literally voted myself bc its a fun way to get out of rvs. i am willing to swear that it in no way is any kind of breadcrumb, masterful plan, or silly role-related shit.

I noticed something (won't say what this early) so I asked that question for a specific reason other than getting out of RVS.

I'll say what in post game or in the event we are both dead and in dead thread, not before.

[Vijarada]

Not Voting (2): No one

@MOD

fixt, tks ~f

[Raya36]

She's asking a lot of questions. That's fine obviously, lots of mafia players do. But they seem to have no direction at all right now. And that's a common hiding mechanism. Especially when it's not combined with actually talking about the answers to those questions, and asking them for good reason.

So, why choose a gorny vote over me?

This was an attempt to get out of rvs which may not be very obvious since I never got a responce and we already got out of rvs another way.

If you think Vij is scummy why not move your vote there rather than leaving it on gorny?

This is a reasonable question to ask as well. Still me trying to get out of rvs plus I was actually very interested in the responce. He was talking about how he found someone scummy but never voted for him whike leaving his vote on as rvs on a player he hardly mentioned. I did respond to this responce.

Inferno, can you explain in a little more detail why you think Vij's self vote is scummy? So far from my understanding it's because he could be trying to blend in but what makes his post stand out from any of the other rvs votes?

I see nothing wrong with this question either. I still never got a responce to this so I don't want to talk too much about it but it does serve a purpose.

Any thoughts on what has been happening so far?

Seeing if we can get more from him than an rvs vote when there is more than enough information and stuff going on to talk about instead.

Is okay all you have to say to that though?

He had been arguing about my point in that for a few posts and when I finally get on to explain my point in more detail all he says is 'okay'.

And look at the language she uses here.

Fair enough. Your statement would be more powerful with a vote but if you think that your vote is better where it is now than that is fair.

Equivocating.

Maybe you're right but he just seems genuine to me. This post here does seem a bit overdefensive though.

Equivocating.

Just to clear this up what I'm saying is that self-voting in rvs alone is NAI but with more evidence and insight on motivation etc, etc, you could potentially have a point.

Equivocating.

As for the equivocating, I tend to be more passive or passive-aggressive at the start of mafia games until I get a read strong enough for me to push which is probably why I seem like I'm not comitting.

[TywinL]

My god, I am tired of writing walls, that is just not my playstyle. Will respond later.

[Inferno390]

He's trying to paint things that are actually NAI as scummy. He's being way too serious about a simple self-vote.

Why are you trying so hard to paint my actions as scummy? Why are you taking my thinking and immeadiately saying that it's scum?
We can play the painting game all day.

This post here does seem a bit overdefensive though.

VOTE: Vijarada

I don't know anyone else in this game, while I know and actively dislike this bitch.

I concur VOTE: Vijarda

Any thoughts on what has been happening so far?

2. Raya did not "literally debunk" that by saying that it's actually NAI. She said, as you quoted your self, "I think you have a point in saying that he might be trying to blend in but it is rvs and I have seen town do similar things to this before." He did not say is was or was not NAI. Only you. In fact, He said that I might have a point. So stop shoving words down Ray's throat.

Just to clear this up what I'm saying is that self-voting in rvs alone is NAI but with more evidence and insight on motivation etc, etc, you could potentially have a point.

A: He was being very aggressive nd throwing around accusations. So I was very defensive. That happens.
B: Okay.

Alright. I need to look more into this tomorrow night. Is okay all you have to say to that though?

Also I don't think you've responded to this yet.

Inferno, can you explain in a little more detail why you think Vij's self vote is scummy? So far from my understanding it's because he could be trying to blend in but what makes his post stand out from any of the other rvs votes?

Okay is not all I really have to say, I just needed a little time to gather my thoughts on the subject. I agree that it doesn't have any convicting evidence on Vij alone. That makes perfect sense. (That's why I gave the FoS and have been saying that more response is needed from Vij before I move any farther.) HOWEVER, this is not what TywinL has been saying. She has been saying that no matter what happens, that post is NAI and so me thinking that it's anti-town (not scummy, a terminology error that's going to haunt me all game) immediately marks me at scum, which is a ridiculous proposition even late in the game.

I think I have responded to it, but let me go ahead and do it again to see if that makes things a little clearer.
My thinking in this situation is that at RVS is supposed to be the point where everyone throws their vote around at other people, maybe form a wagon or two, and put on a little pressure to see how they respond. Ask questions, think about all the responses, etc. That would be the best way to scumhunt in RVS. What Vij did was vote for himself, which not only doesn't achieve that goal at all, but now has basically divided everyone into two parties (pro TywinL or pro Inferno). That's pretty disruptive to what town is wanting to do, which is work together. Plus it gives us no relevant information at all as to scumhunting. That seems pretty anti-town to me. And in Mafia, the way I see it, if you're not for town, you're against it. And if you're against it, you're scum. So if you post something that is anti-town, I'm at least going to be paying attention to what you do from here on out, even if it's just RVS.

anyway, that's my thinking on this situation. I don't mind if you don't agree with my logic, it's just the way I look at the game.

[Inferno390]

So first, I would like to make a statement regarding Vij. After doing a little research, this is what I found:
Fong's Gambit
"This gambit consists of a player voting for themself, with the intention of coaxing whoever the Mafia is into voting for them. The original player will then hope to lead a vote against the now suspicious player who voted for them."

So Vij's move was not as anti-town as I first thought. However, it also didn't work directly. I only gave FoS, which is less than a vote, but more than nothing, so TYwinL tried to use that against me.
Except TYwinL's used so many fallacies it's not even funny. Here's a list of a few:

ORLYScum:

"1) If X is scum, then his arguments are scummy.
2) X is scum.
3) Therefore, X's arguments are scummy."

Argument from Repetition

"A simple but sometimes effective technique which simply requires a player or faction to repeat its (essentially false) argument so many times, usually in virtually identical words, that the group begins to see it as an assumption and acts on it."

Attack the Person

"Argumentum ad Hominem (or "Attack against the Man") is a attack on the person, rather than on their arguments. It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. This often happens in mafia games. Instead of attacking an accuser's arguments, someone will attack the accuser instead."

Confirmation Bias

"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them... It is not always a false assumption, but it can be blinding to new or better options that come along, because they do not match the player's "pet theory"."

Red Herring

"A red herring is a distraction technique, either to avoid having to come up with a reasonable defense to suspicions directed at the player, or to create a fog of confusion around precisely why some other player is suspicious."

Straw Man

"A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.
Also, "Strawmanning" involves taking a small piece of the case someone has built up that is weaker than their other points and blowing it up. They can then defeat the weaker point and use that as 'proof' that everything that person has said is wrong. "

Bodyguard Defense (also known as Chainsaw Defense, Tarhalindur Version)

"The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum". "

Anyone want me to start quoting posts or laying out the reasoning, just ask. I'm just trying to avoid more crazy wall posts (which are another good way to hide these fallacies btw)

[Sunlit Diamond]

Inferno: If you believe that public knowledge of mafia theory renders said theory invalid...why rely on it so heavily?

Tywin, can you clarify what you hoped to gain/what you hoped town would gain from your 'reaction test'? You seem to still be scum-reading Inferno, whereas I am getting super earnest town vibes, so clearly some wires got crossed somewhere, yeah?

[TywinL]

Instead of trying to reply to Inferno, I feel that it will be more useful to sum up my thoughts about him because honestly, it's just starting to clog up the whole thread now.

>RVS
>Vij self-votes
>Inferno says that it's pretty scummy
>Raya makes a point that town could also do it too
>I decide to do a reaction test to learn more about this slot. Did you really think I had a solid 100% scumread on Inferno on page 2? Come on now.
>1v1 begins
>We have a debate about scummy vs. being scum
>Inferno makes it clear that he think it is pretty scummy, but he points out that he did not say he was scum
>Inferno tries to shoot back at me for playing the chainsaw defense on him.
>Inferno then pairs me up with Vij if Vij is scum then I am a potential scumbuddy.
>Inferno then complains that I am attacking him for no reason and that there are other people do have done things similar to Inferno. In this case, Inferno is trying to equate his action with other people playing RVS. I actually did not like this since it seems like a pivot or redirect to me.
>Finally, Inferno votes me.
>Inferno also responds to Vij's post saying that the FoS remains.
>I reveal that I was actually doing a reaction test because I had seen enough at that point.
>Inferno laughs and calls for a policy lynch.
> More back and forth and more wall posts
>Inferno learns that the correct term is actually "anti-town" which I admit I also did not know. Then he states that he concludes that what Vij did is anti-town and not scum.
>Inferno continue to state that I am throwing "wild" accusations but I had already said that it was part of the reaction test and that he's quoting me out of context.
>Inferno then states that I am lying about the reaction test and that I should be policy lynched.
>Some time goes by because I was asleep and Inferno wasn't around either
>I come back and state that I will post more later.
>Inferno comes back and tries to clear up his reasoning but he actually contradicts himself.
>Inferno then posts a bunch of theories and talk about how I violated every one of them which is funny because I didn't even do some of those things AND some of the things he did himself too.

I will expand more on the last two lines since I have not responded to those yet.

[TywinL]

I think I have responded to it, but let me go ahead and do it again to see if that makes things a little clearer.
My thinking in this situation is that at RVS is supposed to be the point where everyone throws their vote around at other people, maybe form a wagon or two, and put on a little pressure to see how they respond. Ask questions, think about all the responses, etc. That would be the best way to scumhunt in RVS. What Vij did was vote for himself, which not only doesn't achieve that goal at all, but now has basically divided everyone into two parties (pro TywinL or pro Inferno). That's pretty disruptive to what town is wanting to do, which is work together. Plus it gives us no relevant information at all as to scumhunting.

That seems pretty anti-town to me. And in Mafia, the way I see it, if you're not for town, you're against it. And if you're against it, you're scum. So if you post something that is anti-town, I'm at least going to be paying attention to what you do from here on out, even if it's just RVS.

So I think I understood this correctly... Anti-town = scum in his mind. So Inferno actually thinks Vij is scum even though he was been adamant about his "I'm only saying it's pretty scummy" gimmick.

[TywinL]

ORLYScum: Again, when I simply stated "Because you're scum" it was part of the reaction test but you are trying to make it look like I actually believed in what I said.

Argument from Repetition: Again, you did this too because we were just shooting back and forth. You kept repeating that you thought Vij's actions were pretty scummy and I kept trying to tell you that it is not and that it is NAI. Other people have said this. Who is really spreading the false argument here?


Attack the Person: When did I attack you personally? I only attacked your logic. I never insulted you as a person.


Confirmation Bias: Everyone does this.

Red Herring: I have been clear why I think you are scum.

Straw Man: Partly due to the reaction test but Inferno also did this himself in post 70:

6. Yeah, I give zero fucks about Not_Mafia vote because it is RVS (although we are out of the RVS stage right now) and it means nothing. I am attacking your bad FoS. If someone actually made a decent case on someone, I wouldn't attack them, I would atleast ponder over it because that is called scumhunting. So tell me again how I am defending Vij by attacking just one person?

then...

6. So apparently a vote means nothing but an FoS means everything? That's even more convulted logic than LYING about your scumread.

Bodyguard Defense: False.

[TywinL]

Don't make me write another wall again. I am done doing those.

[Raya36]

Warning! Incoming wall!

Okay is not all I really have to say, I just needed a little time to gather my thoughts on the subject. I agree that it doesn't have any convicting evidence on Vij alone. That makes perfect sense. (That's why I gave the FoS and have been saying that more response is needed from Vij before I move any farther.) HOWEVER, this is not what TywinL has been saying. She has been saying that no matter what happens, that post is NAI and so me thinking that it's anti-town (not scummy, a terminology error that's going to haunt me all game) immediately marks me at scum, which is a ridiculous proposition even late in the game.

I don't think Tywin has been saying that you are scummy because of you finding Vij's selfvote scummy/anti-town. If I'm correct he finds you scummy because of your reaction to him calling you out on finding Vij's selfvote scummy.

I think I have responded to it, but let me go ahead and do it again to see if that makes things a little clearer.
My thinking in this situation is that at RVS is supposed to be the point where everyone throws their vote around at other people, maybe form a wagon or two, and put on a little pressure to see how they respond. Ask questions, think about all the responses, etc. That would be the best way to scumhunt in RVS. What Vij did was vote for himself, which not only doesn't achieve that goal at all, but now has basically divided everyone into two parties (pro TywinL or pro Inferno). That's pretty disruptive to what town is wanting to do, which is work together. Plus it gives us no relevant information at all as to scumhunting. That seems pretty anti-town to me. And in Mafia, the way I see it, if you're not for town, you're against it. And if you're against it, you're scum. So if you post something that is anti-town, I'm at least going to be paying attention to what you do from here on out, even if it's just RVS.

I think what might be happening here is you got a read on someone you think might be scum and you are clinging onto that read and refusing to look at the possibilities pointing towards that player actually being town. The selfvote was NAI as there are reasons scum would do it and reasons town would do it. Vij already said that it was simply to get out of rvs which is a reasonable answer and a likely motivation for a selfvote in rvs but it seems like you are set on Vij being scum.

I have been in this position before as town where I had been so sure I had caught scum it got to the point that I was looking for reasons to call them scum and ignoring the reasons to reconsider my read and potentially realize they could be town too and I think this might be happening to you right now. I'm not saying you should completely trash your read and start over but it is important in mafia to reconsider reads and always be analyzing information critically no matter how confident you are. I guess since you posted all those definitions, what I'm saying is you might fall somewhere under confirmation bias right now.

I'm getting strong town vibes from your play so far. It has come across as very genuine and I'm fairly confident you actually believe in your read and it's not just complete crap you made up to get a mislynch in. That said, I don't think the reasoning for your read is strong enough for the amount you have been defending it.

One flaw I found in your argument is in that Vij has split town because of arguments caused by his selfvote which is disruptive to town who need to work together. While I agree it is extremely important for town to work together it is also necessary for us to have conflicts like this in order to sort players. If we never had conflict we wouldn't have enough information to figure out who scum is and we would slowly get picked away. This is an example of what I mean by you're refusing to look at the possibility of him being town. Yes, he is causing some chaos and distruption which could be to scum's favour but he also got us out of rvs and generated some discussion and information which is to town's favour.

[TywinL]

Someone pointed out earlier that what Inferno is doing is a classic example of newb-town, but I wouldn't know because I don't play Newbie games. Can someone back that up?

[Raya36]

I can back it up if you aren't referring to me (since some of my points can be taken that way). I've played a few newbie games and have seen this a lot plus I remember when I was a newbie (or more of a newbie than I still consider myself at least) and used to play like this. I guess the main thing that makes me think inferno is newb-town is his confidence and willingness to put so much effort into his posts and to include so much detail. A lot of newb-scum like to hide and probably wouldn't hold that kind of confidence even after being told several times that they are "wrong". Plus he isn't flailing under the pressure or holding back information or "keeping his options open" as I would expect of scum.

Of course he could always be a really strong scum player completely playing us and making us think he's newb-town but judging from the join date I find that unlikely.