Large Normal 208 - Fireworks Festival [End]

[Joey_]

Spoiler: @Nauci

I thought counter wagon meant wagon scum create to get heat off of their buddy, not just the-only-other-plausible-vote.

tbh I'm not sure we can count Quick as a counterwagon for the purposes of wagon analysis, considering most of the people on his agreed he wasn't scum, but a mere PL.

Spoiler: TwoInAMillion's Good Post

Nothing changed my mind. I thought Quick was town before and he was town. There are scum on his wagon. There are scum on Whiskers and Flubbers wagons. Town is making it easy for scum to hide by pushing bad wagons.

Why do you think both are town? You dont think the flub’s lynch resistance from yday was odd?

Be more specific. I think both are town because of the lack of reasoning on both lynches, the scumminess of people on their wagons, that they came up day 1 when there are many mislynches and the lack of consensus on lynches as if scum is trying to split up the town.

This is a good post from TIAM in a game where there are too few good TIAM posts.

I had a hunch this would happen.
Lead on, confirmed townie.

Spoiler: Re:Appeal to Authority

Games arent decided by hard infos most of the time, you need more than one scumread

This is far from true. Most games are decided on hard information.

Hm you played 4 games, i played thousands on em and at least 25 here so ill dismiss your opinion

Appeal to authority. Why not ask other people instead of just deciding yourself? This is something that scum would say to dismiss good night actions.

Ask me: I agree that most satisfying, "real" games aren't won by Following The Cop.

My main reason was heavy ass poe into rxn check into slight meta into overall scummy ass play when pressirized. Town dynamic imo says it was t va s yday too

I'm just gonna say, if you're PoE'ing people with total 1 flip, you probably haven't caught scum.

Heavy poe means that its approximate poe. Like it works a lot more than you could think, heavy poe is like calculated risk imo.

Exemple : if i have 4 clears, 2 hard townreads, 4 town leans, 2 foses and rest is random. If im trying to use heavy poe ill assume my hard townreads are 100% town, that im mostly correct in my town leans like 1 mefias maximum in my town leans. That at least half my foses is correct etc then i check the interaction between the remaining people via assuming that my tr are towns etc etc its not supposed to be supper accurate its just a tool to find people that should be pushed/fosed etc but wasnt for some reasons

[Whiskers]

Care to explain to me why you think a player should be scumread when there's no reasons and I have explained why I townread Whiskers and no one has explained why it is bad?

It's almost like other people have opinions that are different than yours. *GASP*

I think your reason for town reading Whiskers is shit anyways. I think the exact opposite of you...what the fuck is the town motivation of pointing out a crumb?

Elucidating to the Town. At large.
And tbh, nullifying breadcrumbs by doing so. Honestly I have seen players in Day 4 point to their crumb and go "Hey I was [Doc/JK/whatever] and everybody decides they're instantly clear and lynches with them, as if breadcrumbing is some solid proof that they're actually the role they say they are, because they crumbed early instead of holding out and fullclaiming all on Day 4. It's pretty bullshit.

Meanwhile, nobody should be breadcrumbing unless they're an investigative role. Doc shouldn't be breadcrumbing. Vig outright claimed, but if he hadn't, he probably shouldn't have breadcrumbed either.

breadcrumbing as town is bad unless you're a Cop/investigative role who knows WITH CERTAINTY that there is Doc/protective role.

But I just did it on impulse, because I'm trying to read between the lines and I'm kind of on autopilot wrt Mafia Game Theory. I wasn't actively thinking about any of this.

Correct. However as cleared Town their reads are guaranteed to come from a good place. So while I hate town blocks I find that taking what masons say important.

I'll take reads from bad players with a large helping of salt instead of buddying up to them.[/quote]
Please for god's sake townread me, your posts are good and it's putting me on edge that I'm your SR.

[Nero Cain]

Please for god's sake townread me, your posts are good and it's putting me on edge that I'm your SR.

oh noes! the

ate

is getting to me!

[Whiskers]

I could maybe buy a scumWhiskers defending Nauci for town cred I guess but I still dislike her contents. Her Appendix and forward sucks too.

[Joey_]

I could maybe buy a scumWhiskers defending Nauci for town cred I guess but I still dislike her contents. Her Appendix and forward sucks too.

Whiskers..

[Joey_]

Again, fucking last time that tell failed me

[Joey_]

I could maybe buy a scumWhiskers defending Nauci for town cred I guess but I still dislike her contents. Her Appendix and forward sucks too.

Read my lengthy posts i made just for u

[Nero Cain]

What tell?

[Whiskers]

Start D1 townreading Whiskers, end D1 scumreading her I think. Didn't like the stuff with the softs. Reason I don't like the wagon is because if it's green it's so obvious in hindsight and such a waste. Is Whiskers tone entirely constructed or not, I mean.

Can I just be clear I'm not smart or good enough to fake tone.
Like, I know where my strengths and weaknesses are: I'm good stirring and prodding and digging, but I'm not good at sorting what I've dug up, or analyzing what it means or what it's good for. I don't ever read as particularly townie, Town or Scum. My most successful games early on were my scum games, so I tried to match my town game to my scum play.

Town or Scum, my actual intent is to scumhunt to the best of my ability, but to be honest when I've come short on something. Most of my game one way or another is personality. I have played games where I have forgotten who my scumpartners are partway through, and acted as part of the uninformed majority. I always play like scummy town.

I'm not really smart enough to fake tone.

That's why the shit like Alisae's early fos on me is so frustrating.

Take it for what it's worth, but I think a lot of what you're reading isn't alignment indicative, it's just me. If you think that's a liability

(Hint: it is)

then you should probably lynch me and start sorting actual scumreads further on in the game.

[Joey_]

Im isoing one of my games where i totally owned froggy when i hard scumread the slot in about 10 posts from replacing in, it was kinda-ish the same thought process this game for flub. I was mafia tho in that game but it was multiball so it was still genuine scumhunt, also

[Joey_]

What tell?

the international mefias scumbol !!!!!!!!!!

[Joey_]

good times

[Joey_]

im so fucking hilarious when im mafia honestly

[Whiskers]

The facepalm?
I liked nero's pun.

[Joey_]

The facepalm?
I liked nero's pun.

yea, it was a joke that started on em but its surprisingly accurate

[Whiskers]

Re: Your reasons for voting Flubber

I want to say, I was so vehement on killing the Flubber wagon (not that I actually had any sway, but I tried at least) was due to the fact that most of the votes didn't give reasons to support them, and I felt the reasons were mostly bad.

It sounds like your vote on him was simply for pressure and he reacted badly? But like, not engaging with you after a vote and lurking it out is, I feel, pretty null. That's a good thing to do as town or scum when the heat is on. (at least, I've found it works as town or scum.)

I should say something like "You should take a long hard look at UC Voyager slot then! That's how everybody is with him!" (ie, poking him and his reaction is to lurk) But honestly I get what you're saying, and it's not really the same because UC Voyager was

kiiind

of a counterwagon? Except never actually got wagoned. And, of course, that he ended up replacing out (but that's not really alignment telling, is it?)

I also understand what you mean with your PoE post mostly.


One thing-- you said

"Normally town who are average are the scumtargets,"

right after saying

"Flub should have been pushed for his average content and hadn't yet."

And after rereading that and writing it out like this, I also understand that, too. So nevermind.

But then, shouldn't we look at

you

and worry that

you're

scum, for pressuring mediocre townies, something that

scum

purportedly likes to do?

[Joey_]

Re: Your reasons for voting Flubber

I want to say, I was so vehement on killing the Flubber wagon (not that I actually had any sway, but I tried at least) was due to the fact that most of the votes didn't give reasons to support them, and I felt the reasons were mostly bad.

It sounds like your vote on him was simply for pressure and he reacted badly? But like, not engaging with you after a vote and lurking it out is, I feel, pretty null. That's a good thing to do as town or scum when the heat is on. (at least, I've found it works as town or scum.)

I should say something like "You should take a long hard look at UC Voyager slot then! That's how everybody is with him!" (ie, poking him and his reaction is to lurk) But honestly I get what you're saying, and it's not really the same because UC Voyager was

kiiind

of a counterwagon? Except never actually got wagoned. And, of course, that he ended up replacing out (but that's not really alignment telling, is it?)

I also understand what you mean with your PoE post mostly.


One thing-- you said

"Normally town who are average are the scumtargets,"

right after saying

"Flub should have been pushed for his average content and hadn't yet."

And after rereading that and writing it out like this, I also understand that, too. So nevermind.

But then, shouldn't we look at

you

and worry that

you're

scum, for pressuring mediocre townies, something that

scum

purportedly likes to do?

No because two reasons
1. Flub's rxn to my push on him was textbook scum when imo ive been pretty much obv towning so extremely hard since the start of the game that mefias dont even try to hardscumread me or engage me too much
2. The town dynamics surrounding flub's wagon was telling, and it has like nothing to do with me.

That being said, if i was mafia im pretty sure i would "scumread" flub in this game because hes fairly fucking scummy but he wouldnt have then, the resistance to back him up like he has this game. A large game = resistance is even more relevant.

Also, i disagree about "not engaging with you after a vote and lurking it out is, I feel, pretty null". The game i have been isoing is one of the many games where i found mafias for accumulated tells like flub's. IMO, not engaging someone who scumread you (and you townread) is extremely fucking scummy. Also to put it in context, flub had no pressure from anywhere else on the table but from me and it was just a vote. I didnt expect him to be "in my face" kinda for it but just ask me why etc idk he did nothing to try to sort me and my fos on him, nada

[Joey_]

TDLR :
In a large game, average players gets pushed
Flubs play in this game is average
He wasnt pushed, not even mentionned

[Whiskers]

I have to go to work but the opening Whiskers votes are clearly scum motivated. Flubber was clearly the counter wagon to Quick, doing a VCA late tonight should also help us net another.

VOTE: Flubber

I don't like the votes on me either obviously, but I think considering Flubber a counterwagon to Quick is wrong. We're in a bit of a unique situation where we got a flip and then had many viable wagons, all before the end of Day 1. IMO you should be looking at MY wagon as the main one, and Flubbernugget's wagon as the counterwagon to ME. Quick was a hasty policy lynch that had little telling information-- because most of the people on the wagon were policy lynching him.

Again, I think this is a bad reason for voting/lynching Flubber.

Especially when like 2 clears and myself wanted him ded

being cleared town doesn't make thier reads better. See Dunk.

Correct. However as cleared Town their reads are guaranteed to come from a good place. So while I hate town blocks I find that taking what masons say important.

No, they're really not guaranteed to come from a good place-- unless you literally mean "from town," in which case we haven't technically cleared them but I understand what you mean (occam's razor).
Assuming they are indeed masons, then they are still part of an uninformed majority and the're still subject to misinformation and misguidedness as much as the rest of the town. You should pay attention, ofc, but I don't see cozying up to them and blanketly saying they will always have important reads as being correct.

Nero is right that it's common for wagons to run from town to town

But whiskers just isn't getting lynched despite not a lot of voices being against it

This is the WiFoM of a desperate player.

That means Whiskers is a mislynch or a null read or is (unlikely) scum. I can literally take resistance or what you are saying as resistance when it really isn't and make it into anything.

What can't be manipulated is the why of people are and aren't on the wagon. I have scumread you pretty damn close to on replace in and statements like this only reaffirm my read.

I disagree here, as well-- that's kind of literally how mafia works, isn't it? You manipulate other people's reads by changing their opinions.

Flubber is a pretty fuckin dangerous wagon and I think Alisae's slot still has some big jumps in logic, despite the replacement.

albeit smaller jumps than before.

[Joey_]

I have to go to work but the opening Whiskers votes are clearly scum motivated. Flubber was clearly the counter wagon to Quick, doing a VCA late tonight should also help us net another.

VOTE: Flubber

I don't like the votes on me either obviously, but I think considering Flubber a counterwagon to Quick is wrong. We're in a bit of a unique situation where we got a flip and then had many viable wagons, all before the end of Day 1. IMO you should be looking at MY wagon as the main one, and Flubbernugget's wagon as the counterwagon to ME. Quick was a hasty policy lynch that had little telling information-- because most of the people on the wagon were policy lynching him.

Again, I think this is a bad reason for voting/lynching Flubber.

Especially when like 2 clears and myself wanted him ded

being cleared town doesn't make thier reads better. See Dunk.

Correct. However as cleared Town their reads are guaranteed to come from a good place. So while I hate town blocks I find that taking what masons say important.

No, they're really not guaranteed to come from a good place-- unless you literally mean "from town," in which case we haven't technically cleared them but I understand what you mean (occam's razor).
Assuming they are indeed masons, then they are still part of an uninformed majority and the're still subject to misinformation and misguidedness as much as the rest of the town. You should pay attention, ofc, but I don't see cozying up to them and blanketly saying they will always have important reads as being correct.

Nero is right that it's common for wagons to run from town to town

But whiskers just isn't getting lynched despite not a lot of voices being against it

This is the WiFoM of a desperate player.

That means Whiskers is a mislynch or a null read or is (unlikely) scum. I can literally take resistance or what you are saying as resistance when it really isn't and make it into anything.

What can't be manipulated is the why of people are and aren't on the wagon. I have scumread you pretty damn close to on replace in and statements like this only reaffirm my read.

I disagree here, as well-- that's kind of literally how mafia works, isn't it? You manipulate other people's reads by changing their opinions.

Flubber is a pretty fuckin dangerous wagon and I think Alisae's slot still has some big jumps in logic, despite the replacement.

albeit smaller jumps than before.

I think youre town and your attitude towards flub is unwarranted

[Whiskers]

Working backwards on this post:

Also to put it in context, flub had no pressure from anywhere else on the table but from me and it was just a vote. I didnt expect him to be "in my face" kinda for it but just ask me why etc idk he did nothing to try to sort me and my fos on him, nada

I don't generally reply to one empty vote on me either.

Also, i disagree about "not engaging with you after a vote and lurking it out is, I feel, pretty null". The game i have been isoing is one of the many games where i found mafias for accumulated tells like flub's. IMO, not engaging someone who scumread you (and you townread) is extremely fucking scummy.

In that case, you should reread me with the consideration that I went mostly afk for a while while my wagon was picking up steam and was at it's peak.
Coming back and seeing the Flub counterwagon coming in was reassuring and meant I could re-enter the thread and re-apply pressure to Quick, but there was a (relatively) large period of time where I wasn't voting (Alisae and Cabd (I think?) gave me shit for this) and then I stopped posting so much.

How do you read

that?

[pienyan]

votecount 2.4

Whiskers (4) - Nero Cain, AxleGreaser, I Am Innocent, Flubbernugget
Lucky2u (4) - TwoInAMillion, Rhah, Joey_, gerryoat

Flubbernugget (3) - beeboy, HolySpiritTurtle, MathBlade

Not voting (4) - Shiro, Lucky2u, Whiskers, Nauci

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is November 1, 03:00 GMT-7 or in (expired on 2017-11-01 03:00:00).

[Joey_]

Working backwards on this post:

Also to put it in context, flub had no pressure from anywhere else on the table but from me and it was just a vote. I didnt expect him to be "in my face" kinda for it but just ask me why etc idk he did nothing to try to sort me and my fos on him, nada

I don't generally reply to one empty vote on me either.

Also, i disagree about "not engaging with you after a vote and lurking it out is, I feel, pretty null". The game i have been isoing is one of the many games where i found mafias for accumulated tells like flub's. IMO, not engaging someone who scumread you (and you townread) is extremely fucking scummy.

In that case, you should reread me with the consideration that I went mostly afk for a while while my wagon was picking up steam and was at it's peak.
Coming back and seeing the Flub counterwagon coming in was reassuring and meant I could re-enter the thread and re-apply pressure to Quick, but there was a (relatively) large period of time where I wasn't voting (Alisae and Cabd (I think?) gave me shit for this) and then I stopped posting so much.

How do you read

that?

I think you are misunderstand exactly what i mean when im saying "not engaing someone who scumreads you". Its not about activity, its when someone is going out of their way not to address the read at all even when they are being pressurized to. I dont want to go into the territory where its just my opinion about whats scummy versus what you think is scummy, bottom line i had reasons to scumread flub, reasons that is coherent with a good amount of red flips if got throughout my games

[Whiskers]

I think Alisae's slot still has some big jumps in logic, despite the replacement.

albeit smaller jumps than before.

I think youre town and your attitude towards flub is unwarranted

I don't like

Alisae

Mathblade defending me by ignoring my wagon.
I don't think a policy lynch wagon counts as "counterwagon to scum." `

[Joey_]

Also, you are using your play in this game as to try to prove me wrong that my theory or read or tell about ppl not engaging is scummy. You are trying to use hidden info (your alignement) to try to defend your point which is really absurd in a vacuum but also not something i think scum really do often but when they know what theyre doing