Newbie 1826 Basketball Game Over

[Toto]

That was the wrong quote, but you get the idea. Thor

[UC Voyager]

1. That is some reachy shit, surely you can see that? You're basically saying I made a plan of bussing Thor and getting UCV on my side, and then despite the plan going perfectly I get cold feet and ditch it just in case UCV might happen to change his mind in the future, even though there is no sign of that happening. Do you not think I would have considered what was needed to achieve victory before making the game-defining decision to bus my partner? You're basically saying just because there is some slim chance I could have an ulterior motive, my point isn't valid. You could literally say the same about any point every made in this game - you can always twist things to suit your agenda/what you want to believe.

2. Did you even read my #3? It's no good saying you've been considering something if there is nothing to back it up - we can only go on what we read in-thread.

Perhaps you can walk me through your thought process behind considering both me and UCV as scum before arriving at your conclusion that UCV must be Town and me scum?

Can you at least answer this bit?

You say you've considered I might be Town and UCV scum but we've seen no evidence of this, so please walk us through your thought-process there.

I agree you are a good player.

So, if you are town put yourself in my less talented shoes.

I can't pretend I can read you.
I can't pretend I can read UCV (just look at his other games).

That leaves me NSG and Luca which you have not helped me sort. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm telling you look scummy because you are refusing to help me sort people out. Why?

I have said why Thor and Luca is scum.

[northsidegal]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

But literally nothing changed to make him think that.

i'm pretty sure you made your post about how, if you were scum, your partner was acting really stupid bussing when they could've just sheeped you onto ucv. like, i'm pretty sure that post came between luca's initial push on you and him changing his mind and going onto ucv. you can't conclusively say that nothing changed because you don't know luca's thought process.

Well, if you wish to be pedantic; "nothing in the gamestate changed"
There.

?

@UCV: Yes but your point was that I was worried you might suspect me at some point - in that case why would I vote you? I could even suspect you without voting you, giving you room to still townread me which you did, but why would I vote you there? It makes no sense.

you didn't vote ucv until toto pointed out that you should be voting him:

If you find that to be an issue - the same thing happened with UCV.
So...?

i don't find it to be an issue - luca was asking the question of why he would vote ucv in that situation, and i pointed out that he voted ucv after toto said that he should be voting ucv.

no, really - why does it matter to you? you believe that me and ucv are scum, yes? if so, why does it seem like you're trying to convince me that i'm scum or convince me that my partner is scum? or, are you just constantly bringing the point up as a way to attack my credibility?

Personally I'd just like to see you provide the meta backup.
Before I thought it was just potentially bad town play - now it looks like scum ducking the question because she's making gak up to protect a partner.

due to factors that i presume i cannot discuss, i can't do this as specifically as i had hoped that i could. what i can say is that ucv plays a lot more formally as scum - he makes an active effort to look towny. to me, it's incredibly obvious when it happens and it's incredibly obvious that it's not here this game. even if i was scum i wouldn't do such a hard defense of my partner - if me and ucv were scum i could still have won even if he was lynched today, but in the actual scenario of us both being town, town loses the game if he's lynched. that's why it matters to me so much.

[Luca Blight]

Toto, where do you stand on me and UCV right now?

[Luca Blight]

due to factors that i presume i cannot discuss, i can't do this as specifically as i had hoped that i could. what i can say is that ucv plays a lot more formally as scum - he makes an active effort to look towny. to me, it's incredibly obvious when it happens and it's incredibly obvious that it's not here this game. even if i was scum i wouldn't do such a hard defense of my partner - if me and ucv were scum i could still have won even if he was lynched today, but in the actual scenario of us both being town, town loses the game if he's lynched. that's why it matters to me so much.

This meta argument is really weak to say he is definitely Town.

Consider the fact UCV was a complete newb when he first joined this game, and is now fairly-experienced as he has played in a lot of games between now and then - do you not think his meta has changed since then? I know my meta changed drastically after playing a few games on this site. It's not something where you can concretely say he is Town given the circumstances - and I would argue he has been a bit more 'formal' during this game day than he was earlier in the game when he was a complete beginner.

How could you have won if UCV was lynched today if you were partners? This is also groundless. You put all your eggs in the basket of him being town after I townread him, and now you're in so deep you can't back out of it.

Please stop avoiding the question and walk me through your thought-process behind considering me and UCV as Town/scum and deciding he is Town and me scum.

[Thor665]

I can't pretend I can read you.
I can't pretend I can read UCV (just look at his other games).

Okay...

That leaves me NSG and Luca which you have not helped me sort. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm telling you look scummy because you are refusing to help me sort people out. Why?

You're refusing to communicate with me on the UCV case - does that make you scummy?
This is a silly argument, both of us are simply more focused on the argument we subjectively feel is more clear.
Also, unlike you, I *have* been discussing both Luca and NSG scum, and literally just pointed out some pretty major points about NSG, one of which you managed to misread in context, and, when I corrected you, didn't decide to follow up - then you complain that I'm not helping you enough.

I really feel the roadblock is on your end, I'm saying a LOT over here.
If you're missing it all you need to try to help me figure out why you're missing it.

[Thor665]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

[UC Voyager]

due to factors that i presume i cannot discuss, i can't do this as specifically as i had hoped that i could. what i can say is that ucv plays a lot more formally as scum - he makes an active effort to look towny. to me, it's incredibly obvious when it happens and it's incredibly obvious that it's not here this game. even if i was scum i wouldn't do such a hard defense of my partner - if me and ucv were scum i could still have won even if he was lynched today, but in the actual scenario of us both being town, town loses the game if he's lynched. that's why it matters to me so much.

This meta argument is really weak to say he is definitely Town.

Consider the fact UCV was a complete newb when he first joined this game, and is now fairly-experienced as he has played in a lot of games between now and then - do you not think his meta has changed since then? I know my meta changed drastically after playing a few games on this site. It's not something where you can concretely say he is Town given the circumstances - and I would argue he has been a bit more 'formal' during this game day than he was earlier in the game when he was a complete beginner.

How could you have won if UCV was lynched today if you were partners? This is also groundless. You put all your eggs in the basket of him being town after I townread him, and now you're in so deep you can't back out of it.

Please stop avoiding the question and walk me through your thought-process behind considering me and UCV as Town/scum and deciding he is Town and me scum.

My meta has changed and my playstyle in this game has. this is one of the longest games i have been in!

[UC Voyager]

I can't pretend I can read you.
I can't pretend I can read UCV (just look at his other games).

Okay...

That leaves me NSG and Luca which you have not helped me sort. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm telling you look scummy because you are refusing to help me sort people out. Why?

You're refusing to communicate with me on the UCV case - does that make you scummy?
This is a silly argument, both of us are simply more focused on the argument we subjectively feel is more clear.
Also, unlike you, I *have* been discussing both Luca and NSG scum, and literally just pointed out some pretty major points about NSG, one of which you managed to misread in context, and, when I corrected you, didn't decide to follow up - then you complain that I'm not helping you enough.

I really feel the roadblock is on your end, I'm saying a LOT over here.
If you're missing it all you need to try to help me figure out why you're missing it.

i don't scumread toto at all

[Toto]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

Show me some things she has said or done and tell me why they are scum motivated. What is her plan?

[Luca Blight]

due to factors that i presume i cannot discuss, i can't do this as specifically as i had hoped that i could. what i can say is that ucv plays a lot more formally as scum - he makes an active effort to look towny. to me, it's incredibly obvious when it happens and it's incredibly obvious that it's not here this game. even if i was scum i wouldn't do such a hard defense of my partner - if me and ucv were scum i could still have won even if he was lynched today, but in the actual scenario of us both being town, town loses the game if he's lynched. that's why it matters to me so much.

This meta argument is really weak to say he is definitely Town.

Consider the fact UCV was a complete newb when he first joined this game, and is now fairly-experienced as he has played in a lot of games between now and then - do you not think his meta has changed since then? I know my meta changed drastically after playing a few games on this site. It's not something where you can concretely say he is Town given the circumstances - and I would argue he has been a bit more 'formal' during this game day than he was earlier in the game when he was a complete beginner.

How could you have won if UCV was lynched today if you were partners? This is also groundless. You put all your eggs in the basket of him being town after I townread him, and now you're in so deep you can't back out of it.

Please stop avoiding the question and walk me through your thought-process behind considering me and UCV as Town/scum and deciding he is Town and me scum.

My meta has changed and my playstyle in this game has. this is one of the longest games i have been in!

See NSG - he even admits it himself.

Surely the fact his Mafia experience has multiplied since being in this game means his meta has to be taken with a very large pinch of salt?

It is not something that is justifiable to base a concrete townread on at this stage of the game.

[Thor665]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

Show me some things she has said or done and tell me why they are scum motivated. What is her plan?

Okay.

Remember that thing I brought up just minutes ago about her UCV defense and when I explained the scum plan to it?
How about that as a start?

I'm already and have been doing this.

[UC Voyager]

due to factors that i presume i cannot discuss, i can't do this as specifically as i had hoped that i could. what i can say is that ucv plays a lot more formally as scum - he makes an active effort to look towny. to me, it's incredibly obvious when it happens and it's incredibly obvious that it's not here this game. even if i was scum i wouldn't do such a hard defense of my partner - if me and ucv were scum i could still have won even if he was lynched today, but in the actual scenario of us both being town, town loses the game if he's lynched. that's why it matters to me so much.

This meta argument is really weak to say he is definitely Town.

Consider the fact UCV was a complete newb when he first joined this game, and is now fairly-experienced as he has played in a lot of games between now and then - do you not think his meta has changed since then? I know my meta changed drastically after playing a few games on this site. It's not something where you can concretely say he is Town given the circumstances - and I would argue he has been a bit more 'formal' during this game day than he was earlier in the game when he was a complete beginner.

How could you have won if UCV was lynched today if you were partners? This is also groundless. You put all your eggs in the basket of him being town after I townread him, and now you're in so deep you can't back out of it.

Please stop avoiding the question and walk me through your thought-process behind considering me and UCV as Town/scum and deciding he is Town and me scum.

My meta has changed and my playstyle in this game has. this is one of the longest games i have been in!

See NSG - he even admits it himself.

Surely the fact his Mafia experience has multiplied since being in this game means his meta has to be taken with a very large pinch of salt?

It is not something that is justifiable to base a concrete townread on at this stage of the game.

im saying it adjusted! aka. i have been following my town meta and changing my game style based on my town meta. now your admiting tha tim playing some meta, and considering I mostly play town and you can see this adjusting, im playing my town meta

[Toto]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

Show me some things she has said or done and tell me why they are scum motivated. What is her plan?

Okay.

Remember that thing I brought up just minutes ago about her UCV defense and when I explained the scum plan to it?
How about that as a start?

I'm already and have been doing this.

Yeah, that's a good start. What else you got?

[Thor665]

i don't think you're partners, it's just misleading to say that it's not possible for you to be partners.

This is why I eyeroll - you're saying this to me like I'm town.
All you're hanging on is that Luca and I are scum theatre and that Toto clings to his really weird UCV town read which he can barely explain and it's going to come out how empty it is.

Okay, here's another.
I point out a language shift, explain her scum goals for the lynch, and explain why she is getting suddenly active and flaily.

[Luca Blight]

The point is, UCV, that the way you play mafia, regardless of alignment, has changed drastically since you've been in this game, as would be the case for any new player who had since played in numerous other games.

The point is that meta cannot be a reliable tool in reading you this game given these circumstances. It would be like using meta from my first game to read me, or using meta from Thor's first game to read him - it's meaningless.

[UC Voyager]

. It would be like using meta from my first game to read m

but have you notied a change in my play style

for only having on other scum game, there is no way my gam style would have changed this much in one game

[Thor665]

first, my point is that scum went into day two and day three relatively comfortable. the pressure has obviously increased as both scum have made it to lylo and the night three kill represents an attempt to eliminate some of that pressure.

How did that kill reduce pressure in a way that a Toto kill would not?

toto's reads weren't clear upon his replacing in, and thus scum couldn't know the effect killing him would have. given the unknown result and the known result with relatively equal benefits (probably more scum benefit for killing lucca, from what i understand he does a lot of lategame gamesolving), scum would choose the known result.

So, scum, feeling the pressure - killed something that was causing no pressure to avoid changing the set situation?
This actually sounds like you're returning to the comfort stance - which I already argued about, and you claimed wasn't your stance.

Here's another.
I point out how her case is using changing logic to support itself - which shows she isn;t using logic, which shows she is scum with a motive - now within the context of th eknown scumgroups the motive bears a lot of fruit.

[Thor665]

How many of these do I need to quote for you?

Read my posts!

[Luca Blight]

. It would be like using meta from my first game to read m

but have you notied a change in my play style

for only having on other scum game, there is no way my gam style would have changed this much in one game

You are a more experienced player now so the way you play will be different from how you started this game, regardless of alignment.

Even if you haven't played much as scum, seeing how others play will influence you etc.

[UC Voyager]

. It would be like using meta from my first game to read m

but have you notied a change in my play style

for only having on other scum game, there is no way my gam style would have changed this much in one game

You are a more experienced player now so the way you play will be different from how you started this game, regardless of alignment.

Even if you haven't played much as scum, seeing how others play will influence you etc.

what do you mean. "influence me"?

i don't really care for trying to explaining to scum why im not scum

[Luca Blight]

. It would be like using meta from my first game to read m

but have you notied a change in my play style

for only having on other scum game, there is no way my gam style would have changed this much in one game

You are a more experienced player now so the way you play will be different from how you started this game, regardless of alignment.

Even if you haven't played much as scum, seeing how others play will influence you etc.

what do you mean. "influence me"?

i don't really care for trying to explaining to scum why im not scum

Haha, you just proved my point.

I'm pretty sure I used that line in this game so you were influenced by me, and if not by me than by someone else.

[Toto]

. thus, what i can explain is how why they're saying something is scummy.

Yes, this is what I mean. Tell my why scum!thor has been saying the things he's been saying or not saying today.

for a stressful lylo situation he's been arguing a lot of definitions and semantics. unlike me, ucv and luca, it doesn't seem like he's actively trying to convince people on anything or sell someone his case. he also seems to have avoided commenting on a lot of the mechanical solving talk that we've all gone over regarding the scumteams. it doesn't seem like he's as invested in solving this game as everyone else, and to me that seems like he doesn't have any solving to do - he already knows everyone else's alignments.

Thor, can you vote NSG? Also please reply to this if you haven't already.

[Thor665]

Sure I guess?

Vote: Northsidegal

This is meaningless though. And also, as if a kick to my nuts, not a discussion of the stuff you just had me quote for you.

[Luca Blight]

Actually it was from the other game I quoted already:

Maybe because he thought he could save cop by healing them or trying to get himself killed by mafia, but forgot there was RoleBlocker......I thought he claimed day 2 though....

Err - look at his initial crumb

Spoiler:

Borax + James and Toranga + Chip

I think it is one of those things.

I am leaning Toranga and Chip because despite all those words Toranga hasn't done jack.

Hi, Mr IC. I'm hoping a town block will form, to counter others. I'm a bit concerned at all the negative press I've been getting from people I've scumread/voted. It smacks of OMGUS.

R

eally

o

ver

w

orked

too

, atm, but will post when i can.

He knew damn well there would be a RB if he was doc. And no, he didn't claim Day Two.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm trying to convince scum they're scum. I'm done here.

Look everyone, I influenced UCV!