Newbie 1826 Basketball Game Over

[UC Voyager]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

There would have been little to no risk in it - you had NSG and Thor locked as scum.

The real unnecessary risk would have been to go against the plan and make an enemy of the person who would have won me the game.

YES, but you wanted to end it before i started to think something was off. you knew it was only a matter of time before i started to realize what was happening so you tried to avoid that!

[Luca Blight]

Toto - do you believe my play makes sense from a scum POV?

[Luca Blight]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

There would have been little to no risk in it - you had NSG and Thor locked as scum.

The real unnecessary risk would have been to go against the plan and make an enemy of the person who would have won me the game.

YES, but you wanted to end it before i started to think something was off. you knew it was only a matter of time before i started to realize what was happening so you tried to avoid that!

Right, so my reponse to fearing you might in the future suspect me is to vote you and confirm to you that I'm scum...

[UC Voyager]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

There would have been little to no risk in it - you had NSG and Thor locked as scum.

The real unnecessary risk would have been to go against the plan and make an enemy of the person who would have won me the game.

YES, but you wanted to end it before i started to think something was off. you knew it was only a matter of time before i started to realize what was happening so you tried to avoid that!

Right, so my reponse to fearing you might in the future suspect me is to vote you and confirm to you that I'm scum...

If you are trying to lynch me, how are you risking "confirming yourself as scum". YOU DON'T

[northsidegal]

have no doubt that both of them have the ability to play a scum game almost entirely indistinguishable from their town game, so completely honestly i can't point to anything specfically that they're saying and say "this is scummy"

This is not acceptable.

but what do you think of what i said after? i'd have a hard time saying that something they're saying is scummy because there's rarely something obviously alignment indicative about just an opinion or about how you look at something. thinking that someone is town or that someone else is scum isn't scummy in itself, but scum have specific motivations behind their reads. thus, what i can explain is how

why

they're saying something is scummy.

[Luca Blight]

@UCV: Yes but your point was that I was worried you might suspect me at some point - in that case why would I vote you? I could even suspect you without voting you, giving you room to still townread me which you did, but why would I vote you there? It makes no sense.

[northsidegal]

Right, so I, as scum, would go into today with the plan of bussing Thor and presumably getting UCV on my side, and then after I have achieved this to perfection I then decide to throw it down the drain and vote UCV, conforming to the guy I was banking on winning me the game that I'm scum?

This isn't a reasonable conclusion.

YES, because you thought you could win day four and not risk a 1v2 day 5!

But literally nothing changed to make him think that.

i'm pretty sure you made your post about how, if you were scum, your partner was acting really stupid bussing when they could've just sheeped you onto ucv. like, i'm pretty sure that post came between luca's initial push on you and him changing his mind and going onto ucv. you can't conclusively say that nothing changed because you don't know luca's thought process.

[Luca Blight]

He does know my thought process, as does everyone - I detailed it in the thread.

[northsidegal]

@UCV: Yes but your point was that I was worried you might suspect me at some point - in that case why would I vote you? I could even suspect you without voting you, giving you room to still townread me which you did, but why would I vote you there? It makes no sense.

you didn't vote ucv until toto pointed out that you should be voting him:

The problem I have with voting Thor is that UCV/NSG seems like too much of a possibility.

If that is really what you believe you should vote UCV not nsg and risk the least likely scenario of thor/nsg

Fine.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: UCV

I gues we'll now find out if NSG and Thor were a scum team.

[Luca Blight]

I'm wondering if NSG will ever get round to explaining her UCV read in greater depth...

[Luca Blight]

NSG - just because Toto said I should vote him doesn't mean I had to - I could just as easily justified my NSG vote.

[Toto]

The problem of scum!you leaving your vote on Thor is that it would have confirmed UCV and NSG not partners when NSG didn't hammer. Which means that Thor would have no choice than to powerbus you because I would have forced him to vote you instead of UCV. And we would have ended up lynching either of you today.

This is why you made up your 'realization' that NSG didn't make sense with Thor, and while the obvious vote would have been UCV, NSG made more sense, because as you say, UCV was still reading you. It was not until I forced your hand to switch votes that you did.

Plus, like I said before, people are irrational all the time.

[Luca Blight]

F*ck off did you 'force my hand' as if I had no choice - I willingly switched my vote and could have stayed put if I wanted to.

And I gave valid reasons for why I changed my mind - the Thor/NSG team no longer made sense as they were playing to lose, which was something you agreed with.

[Toto]

Staying put would have been worse. I would have forced you back.

[Luca Blight]

Why are you ignoring that a) I willingly voted UCV and b) I gave a valid reason for changing my mind on Thor/NSG?

If I changed for no reason then fair enough, but you actually agreed with the reasoning I gave.

[Toto]

Yes, you had a good reason but you also needed a good reason to not look that suspicious.

[Toto]

Aaaaanyway, I need to think about this.

[northsidegal]

Why are you ignoring that a) I willingly voted UCV and b) I gave a valid reason for changing my mind on Thor/NSG?

If I changed for no reason then fair enough, but you actually agreed with the reasoning I gave.

just because you can give or come up with a sensical reason for changing your mind doesn't mean that you can't have any ulterior motives. i'm not sure why you think that's a counterpoint to you being scum - of course scum would always give reasons for their actions, as to avoid suspicion. you questioning earlier on how this play makes sense from a scum pov, but i don't think anything you've said here shows how it doesn't make sense.

[Luca Blight]

But just because something could have an ulterior motive doesn't mean it does - you could literally say that about anything. Surely the fact I was so open and transparent with my thought-process in itself gives what I'm saying more validity.

Also NSG I notice you keep dodging what's being asked of you and what you've promised but as yet failed to deliver - explain your UCV read in more depth.

[Toto]

. thus, what i can explain is how why they're saying something is scummy.

Yes, this is what I mean. Tell my why scum!thor has been saying the things he's been saying or not saying today.

[northsidegal]

But just because something could have an ulterior motive doesn't mean it does - you could literally say that about anything.

that's true, but keep in mind what we're talking about. you said that your play doesn't make sense as scum, but i disagreed - i said that you had perfectly valid reasons to change your mind as scum, with the concern that ucv would change his mind on you. in response, you said that you gave a reason as to why you changed your mind, and thus this would explain that my point doesn't make sense. the thing is, my point can still stand even though you did give a reason behind you changing your mind.

Surely the fact I was so open and transparent with my thought-process in itself gives what I'm saying more validity.

i don't think so. typically when i think things through i don't type my thoughts as i have them - if i decide that the conclusion that i came to is something worth sharing then i'll post about it, but otherwise i would fill the thread with ideas that go nowhere really. i'm not using this point as an argument that you're scum or even that you're being disingenuous or anything - i'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily give your point more validity.

Also NSG I notice you keep dodging what's being asked of you and what you've promised but as yet failed to deliver - explain your UCV read in more depth.

why?

no, really - why does it matter to you? you believe that me and ucv are scum, yes? if so, why does it seem like you're trying to convince me that i'm scum or convince me that my partner is scum? or, are you just constantly bringing the point up as a way to attack my credibility?

[Luca Blight]

1. UCV potentially changing his mind on me isn't a valid reason for me being scum as it's completely groundless - UCV gave no sign of doubting me whatsoever; he had Thor and NSG locked as scum as much as I did at the time.

2. The reason I typed my entire thought-process is quite clear - I voted Thor, and a few minutes later felt something wasn't right, but couldn't yet put it into words, so I unvoted in case of a quick-hammer. I later realised why I had such misgivings and explained them as they came to me.

3. I've never said I'm 100% sure you are also scum, but certainly I am leaning that way.

Why the hell shouldn't you have to justify your UCV read? He's on the verge of getting lynched and you believe he is Town. You've repeatedly promised to back up your read but have failed to do so every time.

You're basing your scumread on me on the fact UCV is Town, to the point where you're not even contemplating that he might be scum and me Town - this needs to be explained and justified.

[northsidegal]

. thus, what i can explain is how why they're saying something is scummy.

Yes, this is what I mean. Tell my why scum!thor has been saying the things he's been saying or not saying today.

for a stressful lylo situation he's been arguing a lot of definitions and semantics. unlike me, ucv and luca, it doesn't seem like he's actively trying to convince people on anything or sell someone his case. he also seems to have avoided commenting on a lot of the mechanical solving talk that we've all gone over regarding the scumteams. it doesn't seem like he's as invested in solving this game as everyone else, and to me that seems like he doesn't have any solving to do - he already knows everyone else's alignments.

[northsidegal]

1. UCV potentially changing his mind on me isn't a valid reason for me being scum as it's completely groundless - UCV gave no sign of doubting me whatsoever; he had Thor and NSG locked as scum as much as I did at the time.

we've already had this conversation before but i'll say it again - you didn't even need to think it was likely that ucv would change his mind. despite the fact that anyone who's played with him before would think that was likely, as long as even the chance that ucv would change his mind, it would still be better for you as scum to want me lynched first. instead of lynching thor today and me tomorrow, you'd just lynch me today and the game would end there.

2. The reason I typed my entire thought-process is quite clear - I voted Thor, and a few minutes later felt something wasn't right, but couldn't yet put it into words, so I unvoted in case of a quick-hammer. I later realised why I had such misgivings and explained them as they came to me.

3. I've never said I'm 100% sure you are also scum, but certainly I am leaning that way.

Why the hell shouldn't you have to justify your UCV read? He's on the verge of getting lynched and you believe he is Town. You've repeatedly promised to back up your read but have failed to do so every time.

2. okay?
3. okay.

in a general game sense, i'd agree with you - people should justify their reads, especially in a situation like the one we're in. in this situation specifically, though, why does it matter to you so much? you believe ucv is scum, so why do you want me to give a case that has the chance of preventing that lynch? wouldn't that go against your goals? it seems to me like you're harping on this point so much because you want me to look untrustworthy. i've explained my read on ucv before and i think i'm alright with my explanations as they are now.

You're basing your scumread on me on the fact UCV is Town, to the point where you're not even contemplating that he might be scum and me Town - this needs to be explained and justified.

stop saying this! seriously, this makes me so mad - i do consider things. i have contemplated that ucv might be scum and you might be town and i have conisdered everything else you've accused me of not even considering. the thing is, i've just come to the opposite conclusions as you. that doesn't mean that i'm not thinking, it means that i disagree with you. again, just because i don't post everything i'm thinking in the thread like you did doesn't mean that i'm not thinking about things.

[UC Voyager]

. thus, what i can explain is how why they're saying something is scummy.

Yes, this is what I mean. Tell my why scum!thor has been saying the things he's been saying or not saying today.

easy

He need to make a case on me, but he doesn't want to actually case me, so he brings in definitions and stuff like that! He avoids pointing out the scummy stuff i have done! It is honest;y a good scum stratify, but not the best for lylo