Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Majiffy]

Desperado is scum

Like look at his tunnel on luv. He is voting him but not really pushing him.

For someone who is so confident about his reads he has done very little explaining.

LUV is also obvscum and a number of us had already explained why in a number of different ways.

There's no reason for him to repeat what's already being patently ignored.

[Surreptitious]

Group A	Group B	Group C
EddieFenix Assemblerotws Bulbazak Toto Elliberetta InactionDan Creature	Majiffy SnarkySnowman Thor665 momo Lil Uzi Vert	vonflare Desperado RachMarie checkersman7 Transcend Ginngie Ramcius

Vote Count 2.3

Group A (2): Ginngie, Elliberetta [L-8]

Group B (2): Desperado, momo [L-8]

Group C (8): Lil Uzi Vert, bulbazak, EddieFenix, Creature, Ramcius, Transcend, Ginngie, Toto, Majiffy checkersman7 [

Group Chosen!

]

Not Voting (7): Assemblerotws, InactionDan, Majiffy, SnarkySnowman, Thor665, vonflare, RachMarie

DPI ends in (expired on 2017-12-03 00:50:00)

DPII ends in (expired on 2017-12-10 00:50:00)

Vote Count 2.0 B

vonflare (0): [L-7]

Desperado (0): [L-7]

RachMarie (0): [L-7]

checkersman7 (0): [L-7]

Transcend (0): [L-7]

Ginngie (0): [L-7]

Ramcius (0): [L-7]

Not voting (12): EddieFenix, Assemblerotws, Bulbazak, Toto, Elliberetta, InactionDan, Creature, Majiffy, SnarkySnowman, Thor665, momo, Lil Uzi Vert

It takes 8 to lynch.

DPII ends in (expired on 2017-12-10 00:50:00)

Mod Notes

Apologies for late VC.

vonflare is V/LA until Dec 5th

checkersman7 is V/LA until Dec 5th

momo is V/LA until Dec 2nd.

[Toto]

VOTE: Desperado

[Bulbazak]

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

I'm not scum reading your slot just based of Ali. Just fyi.

i didn't said you scumread for Ali deeds, i asked don't judge my slot, which was going for few pages. If someone want Discuss something about my slot, they can come directly to me, discussing Ali actions is pointless endeavour, he's not here to explain and i can't talk for him

Same slot. Replacing into the slot doesn't make all the old stuff magically disappear. Sorry to burst your bubble, scumicus.

P-edit: Except Elli has actually drawn conclusions. So how is that theatre if something is actually coming from it?

It was Bulb. sorry.

You still haven't answered that question, btw.

From my end though, Desp has had some posts that at least I point to and say "someone's speaking the truth".

Complaining about spam, the speed of the game, or the length of the thread is contentless posting and is not alignment indicative whatsoever. This is basic freaking stuff, Eddie.

-whacks with newspaper again- I never said those posts were alignment indicative, just said that there's truth to them. I want the

ROOT

reason of why the scum!Desp read is out there because something just doesn't sit right with me.

Desp would actually be trying to parse some of this stuff if town. Especially the further in we got. But Desp is just lurking in the shadows and pops out to complain about the game every now and then.

Also, the sudden strong push onto Majiffy after Momo started getting hardpushed wigged me out.

I have a hunch can you drudge up some quotes and tell me who started that up?

Then compare that to the CMM push when it became obvious it was between CMM and LUV.

Venn diagram that shit and you got scumbo(s)

Checkers was the one that jumped on your wagon as soon as I stated a Momo scumread. Eddie and Rach had just given their support as well, and I remember there were other Momo scumreads earlier in the day. So Momo starts to get some momentum, Checks votes your wagon, which had maybe 2 at most and was essentially an eyeroll vanity wagon beforehand, and all of a sudden there are counterwagons. Beforehand he was on LUV, who he was angry with but agreed was town, so that was not even a serious wagon for him, yet he sat on it for an uncomfortable amount of time. I made a note of the behavior and vote switch, and I thought that if Momo flipped goon, Checks was likely his partner.

I'll look at your wagon compared to Mick's later.

On to 109 after food and work stuff. Heck, I might read a book and forget you guys exist.

[EddieFenix]

VOTE: Checkersman7

[Ginngie]

[Ginngie]

This is the most beautiful burger ever and it's a lot better than writing essays I promise

[Toto]

You still haven't answered that question, btw.

Sorry, I must have missed it. Which question are you referring to?

[Toto]

UNVOTE:

Bulb is giving me the heebie jeebies.

[Toto]

VOTE: Desperado

Desp is still scum

[Toto]

So how is that theatre if something is actually coming from it?

You mean this question? I'm sorry I don't understand what your point is here.

Why does having conclusions makes it less likely to come from scum?

My point was that he is spending a lot of time on doing "analysis" on assembler's meta, and more importantly, was doing a bit of a show on how he was doing such an analysis (why does he need to tell us so much all the things that we don't care about the analysis). Of course the analysis would be presented with their conclusions. That doesn't make it less fake.


It's actually very similar to your wagon analysis on checker tbh. It's a big pile of crap given momo or maj have not flipped yet.

[Transcend]

Rooby rooby rooooooo

[checkersman7]

Congratulations the level of stupid in the last 2 pages has summoned me from my TOTALLY SERIOUS V/LA.

Spoiler: Mikan/Ramci Scumcase

Here's our first interaction. Which... they ignored.

This catchup is terrible

Go on

So I repeated myself.

This catchup is terrible

Go on

And they reply with a smokescreen non-answer.

This catchup is terrible

Go on

You do nothing that is anything remotely town in it. You just say a lot of stuff that's already been said, you're not adding anything new. it just reads scum to me alright? I'm sorry, run over me with your rocket league cars!

Then there's me calling out their reads - and lack of any explanations for any of them in their ISO

[reads list]

Seeing an awful lot of scum reads and an awful little reasoning in your post history.

Which... they ignored. Sensing a pattern? I am.

Oh yeah other fun fact about that post; they openly suggest to another player that they

contribute less

. While

simultaneously complaining that their contributions weren't enough

. You can't scream cogdis any louder.

Then Mikan goes from scumreading me to "trusting Rach Majiffy can be town" to "tring Majiffy" to "Majiffy is just really, really bad town" which is a read that progressed congruently with interest in my lynch.

And let me tell you all the times I've seen "this person scumreading me is just really bad town" from scumbos. Hint: it's a lot.

-~replacement~-

we can lynch Desperado, so he don't have to read this thread

?

i've read the thread

did you just misunderstand what i said or...?

how about making some efforts to find scums?

This is cute because Ramci has done nothing but argue theory and place empty votes since his replace-in.

In fact, I think as of this post, they haven't pushed a single read for town or scum.

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

And this is garbage but it's probably NAI garbage.

Previous slot owners are 100% game because

alignments don't change with replacements.

Then there's this series of events

Hey Ramcius, I haven't seen you doing much lately.

It's cuz he's scum

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Which is great on just so many levels. His response to "You aren't doing much" - clearly an aim at content, not posts - is to strike at the second person calling him out by comparing how much they can hit the submit button?

So then I call him out for it. And he asks me for a case

Do you townread Desp?

Weakly. I could make a towncase when I get home if you want.

Gut says Desp town, probably go for Von tbh

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

Quality over quantity, mate.

And that's not the only reason I'm scumreading you. Or the previous occupant of your slot. Not by a long shot.

If you have something against me, you should say it, cause i'm not getting lynched. Show your "quality"

What is it with all you terrible players insisting you can't be lynched?

reading isn't your thing, eh? I said i'm not getting lynched, i didn't said i can't be lynched, i will explain difference to you - it's possible to lynch me, but there quite few people who think i'm scum and quite a lot, who think someone else is scum in my group, so by simple logic we can deduce that it's more likely someone else will be lynched. Hope that's clear enough for you

And this word salad

Which brings us to

i still waiting your "quality" post about why i'm scum btw

Less than an hour

after asking me for a case he's showboating.

Self-conscious as fuck scumbo.

There you go Ramci.

Clicked the spoiler, saw the first part was complaining about Mikan calling your catchup post shit.

Ojbection overruled - your catchup post was SHIT.

Majiffy, I have a suggestion. If you're actually town go do a few jumping jacks/barrel rolls whatever, come into thread and reskim because you're so far off base with basically everything. Thanks

Checkers was the one that jumped on your wagon as soon as I stated a Momo scumread. Eddie and Rach had just given their support as well, and I remember there were other Momo scumreads earlier in the day. So Momo starts to get some momentum, Checks votes your wagon, which had maybe 2 at most and was essentially an eyeroll vanity wagon beforehand, and all of a sudden there are counterwagons. Beforehand he was on LUV, who he was angry with but agreed was town, so that was not even a serious wagon for him, yet he sat on it for an uncomfortable amount of time. I made a note of the behavior and vote switch, and I thought that if Momo flipped goon, Checks was likely his partner.

Bulbs, you've lost your townread. Earn it back by answering the following line of questioning properly:
Earlier, you mentioned that Elli was a bigger loss than me because he's more logical/better at catching scums and there's "too many cats for me to herd" something like that idc about the exact quote

Now you are posting these theories.

Are you trying to actively undermine my ability to herd cats, share a paranoia theory, or unspecific third option? Choose carefully, since Toto is starting to look more town and there's an opening for a scumread in A!

VOTE: Checkersman7

sup babycakes.


Also in other news we're wagoning Ginngie not Desperado thanks

[EddieFenix]

Not only are you terrible at dancing with your 2 ice blocks for feet, but you also are terrible at being v/la....

[EddieFenix]

Also, Ginngie isn't getting lynched today. So, prepare for that.

[checkersman7]

Well I sure as hell am not
neither is Rach
neither is Ramcius

vonflare is a bad lynch
Desperado I'm less interested in right now


I'll let you attempt to sell me on Transcend scum if you want but I'm not presently too interested

which leaves us with Ginngie

[Thor665]

I mean seeing how I explained IN THREAD how another mislynch in B can lose us the game even with perfect lynches from then on I'm pretty sure I automatically win any 'accuracy fight' you want to have thor "I'm an extremist" mcthorson

Pretty sure we will need to go deep regardless Checky Checkface, so all you're doing is avoiding the gamble in order to "mine" for info in a setup where scum aren't actually particularly informed.

And I'm okay with that, and I'm fine with the plan.
But don't try to tell me it's super brilliant compared to just biting the bullet either.

I have a gimmick way of talking?
What's my gimmick?
...I just type like I talk...

Well, you definitely have gimmick
Don't you see?
or is this how you talk all the time?

I lean on the former.

So you're saying my "gimmick" of formatting my posts makes them hard to read?

Bollocks.

Vote: Mikan

you aware that Mikan is not in game anymore?

Nope, I'd forgotten.

Vote: Ramicus

[checkersman7]

also a bad vote

[Toto]

We should have voted B+Thor

[Bulbazak]

Some players have reads too different from others.

And that means...what exactly?

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

What the heck even is this discredit? "I have more posts than you, so nobody should listen to a thing you say about me." Seriously?

bulb - strong townreads elsewhere in the group and past experience

I gave you a lot of leeway in our last two games together, because I knew it had been awhile, and I wanted to see if you were still able to read me 100% like you used to. In 17 Kilos of Cocaine you acted paranoid about me and never really settled on a hard townread. Then in TBD, you shot me based off of a fake guilty from Dreal, which you would have know was bupcus if you were capable of reading me at the level you used to be. So from my perspective, you've forfeited any right to use past experience as a metric to justify a read. Try harder and give actual reasons for why you think I'm scum.

[Toto]

Context

Hey Ramcius, I haven't seen you doing much lately.

It's cuz he's scum

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Desperado is scum

Like look at his tunnel on luv. He is voting him but not really pushing him.

For someone who is so confident about his reads he has done very little explaining.

LUV is also

obvtown

and a number of us had already explained why in a number of different ways.

There's no reason for him to repeat what's already being patently ignored.

Fixed.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb is giving me the heebie jeebies.

And this means...what exactly?

So how is that theatre if something is actually coming from it?

You mean this question? I'm sorry I don't understand what your point is here.

Why does having conclusions makes it less likely to come from scum?

My point was that he is spending a lot of time on doing "analysis" on assembler's meta, and more importantly, was doing a bit of a show on how he was doing such an analysis (why does he need to tell us so much all the things that we don't care about the analysis). Of course the analysis would be presented with their conclusions. That doesn't make it less fake.


It's actually very similar to your wagon analysis on checker tbh. It's a big pile of crap given momo or maj have not flipped yet.

So because you don't understand or get why someone would find a particular mode of analysis useful means it's fake? Especially when he shows that he can get reads from it? Same thing with wagon analysis. Lack of flips doesn't make that sort of analysis any less useful. Less accurate maybe, but it just depends on what sort of wagons you're looking at and why. If I have a particularly strong scumread on Momo, and I see Checker jumping to create a counterwagon when the wagon I'm pushing gains momentum, should I not look at that association and say "If X then Y." or in this case "If Momo flips goon, then Checkers is very likely goon."? You seem very intent on discrediting and attacking any different forms of analysis that you either a.) don't understand or b.) think may produce results different than randomly guessing or relying on feelings.

Checkers was the one that jumped on your wagon as soon as I stated a Momo scumread. Eddie and Rach had just given their support as well, and I remember there were other Momo scumreads earlier in the day. So Momo starts to get some momentum, Checks votes your wagon, which had maybe 2 at most and was essentially an eyeroll vanity wagon beforehand, and all of a sudden there are counterwagons. Beforehand he was on LUV, who he was angry with but agreed was town, so that was not even a serious wagon for him, yet he sat on it for an uncomfortable amount of time. I made a note of the behavior and vote switch, and I thought that if Momo flipped goon, Checks was likely his partner.

Bulbs, you've lost your townread. Earn it back by answering the following line of questioning properly:
Earlier, you mentioned that Elli was a bigger loss than me because he's more logical/better at catching scums and there's "too many cats for me to herd" something like that idc about the exact quote

Now you are posting these theories.

Are you trying to actively undermine my ability to herd cats, share a paranoia theory, or unspecific third option? Choose carefully, since Toto is starting to look more town and there's an opening for a scumread in A!

I mentioned earlier that your Majiffy push opposite Momo yesterday made me vary wary of the Majiffy wagon. You didn't push further into what those reasons were. Majiffy did. I just gave my full thought process on why that was, especially since he brought up who started that heavy push on him. The Momo association is still in the back of my mind, but it's also now counterbalanced by how hard you pushed the scum's wincon as being different. Suffice to say, I'm not interested in your lynch, but I'm not going to sugar coat my thought process from different points in the game, especially if asked about it.

@Majiffy: You said that wagon analysis was crap in reference to my mention of comparing the Mick wagon with the second B wagon, yet you later wanted me to compare your wagon with the Mick wagon to find scum. Why is one wagon analysis garbage while the other isn't?

[Toto]

So because you don't understand or get why someone would find a particular mode of analysis useful means it's fake?

1) Wolfs are more likely to

show

how they are trying to solve the game. Because their objective is to

look

like they are scumhunting, rather than actually scumhunting.
2) Objective types of analysis (VCA, NKA, meta, game theory) are MUCH easier to fake effectively because they are.... objective. Doing this requires no lying or personal skills.
3) While these types of analysis are effective as town it is a HUGE red flag when this is the only thing someone is doing because they are avoiding doing the hard stuff to do by scum. Showing town emotions (paranoia, frustration, etc) in a way that looks natural is MUCH harder than spending three pages talking about game theory, or talking about wagon conspiracy theories.

[Elliberetta]

lul