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Post Post #675 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:13 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In post 675, LaserGuy wrote:What do you think the alternative is? If we have a choice between lynching player that is 90% likely to be town and another that is 40% likely to be town, the correct play is to lynch the one that is 40% likely to be town. The more players that we can put into this category, the more likely we are to win. Now sure, at this stage of the game, saying we have four or five conftown players is silly. We don't.
You're confusing the idea of conftown with "townread". You're describing a scenario where you townread someone confidently. Previously, you were describing a scenario in which someone was simply written off as conftown. As an example of the distinction, for now I'm treating Luca as conftown but I personally believe the lynch restriction was an incredibly scummy thing to do. When you have a conftown player, you ignore the facets of their play. When you townread someone, that's
based
on the facets of their play.
Because a player that is active is likely to continue to be active. They will be easier to sort as the game goes on.
I don't feel like that really answers the question of why a low information lynch is better than a reads-based lynch, unless the sole deciding factor in who you vote is activity. Also an empirically unreliable idea, as evidenced by Lucky and players less active today.
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Post Post #676 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:54 pm

Post by Impede »

Still see very little town-contribution coming from Zulfy, but a PL isn't really called for at this stage. No Zulfy lynch today methinks.
UNVOTE:
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Post Post #677 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:58 pm

Post by Impede »

In post 633, CultOfAthena wrote:Out of those the first would be cy and the last would be Zaraki. That's simply a hierarchy given those options, however, and presents a false image of my true reads. I doubt I would be willing to vote any of those three today.
What are your true reads? What prevents you from voting ANY of the lynch pool that Luca posited?
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Post Post #678 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:00 pm

Post by Impede »

In post 649, Luca Blight wrote:If this was Comm trying to gambit then I don't think the Mod would have responded to it, which makes me feel it perhaps was a genuine townslip.

Not enough to confirm Comm as Town (particularly when his play this game has been poor) but enough for me to leave him alone for today.
On board with this.
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Post Post #679 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:02 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In post 678, Impede wrote:
In post 633, CultOfAthena wrote:Out of those the first would be cy and the last would be Zaraki. That's simply a hierarchy given those options, however, and presents a false image of my true reads. I doubt I would be willing to vote any of those three today.
What are your true reads? What prevents you from voting ANY of the lynch pool that Luca posited?
I scumread other people more than them.
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Post Post #680 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:04 pm

Post by Impede »

In post 653, Luca Blight wrote:I'm gonna chop the lynch pool down to three.

LaserGuy
Impede
Zaraki

One of these is being lynched today.
I responded to Laser's "case" against me in in my . The issue kinda fell dead after that. If you have concerns, it's much more town-beneficial to air them and question the individuals regarding their behavior than just throw out blanket lynch lists.

Worth noting that I also completely agree that there is 1-2 scum in this list.
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Post Post #681 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:14 pm

Post by Sesq »

holy shit cult is so scummy, im going to eat my own ass
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Post Post #682 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Post by Impede »

In post 682, Sesq wrote:im going to eat my own ass
lolllllllllllllllllllllllllll
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Post Post #683 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:22 pm

Post by Impede »

In post 680, CultOfAthena wrote:I scumread other people more than them.
In all fairness, this sucks. I realize you're tired of Luca grilling you, but you could at least give me the time of day. I'd like to be able to feel good about your content, but I don't. Help me out.
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Post Post #684 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=9795196#p9795196]post 685[/url], northsidegal wrote:
In post 684, Impede wrote:
In post 680, CultOfAthena wrote:I scumread other people more than them.
In all fairness, this sucks. I realize you're tired of Luca grilling you, but you could at least give me the time of day. I'd like to be able to feel good about your content, but I don't. Help me out.
I wasn't attempting to be intentionally obtuse. The reason really is as simple as that. What prevents me from voting in the lynch pool? It's because I scumread people not in the list more than those people. I'm not entirely sure what else you're expecting.

Why don't you feel good about my content in general?
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Post Post #685 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:57 pm

Post by MathBlade »

Votecount 2.16

Impede(2)
~ CommKnight, LaserGuy

CultOfAthena(2)
~ mozamis, Sesq
mozamis(1)
~ CultOfAthena
CommKnight(1)
~ Lucky2u


Not Voting (5): Zulfy, cytheflyguy, Luca Blight, Impede, Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2017-12-07 23:39:00)


FLAVORThis is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.


Performed 29 calls in 9 seconds. With an average of 0.313068965517241 seconds per call.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
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Post Post #686 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:36 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

In post 676, CultOfAthena wrote:As an example of the distinction, for now I'm treating Luca as conftown but I personally believe the lynch restriction was an incredibly scummy thing to do.
This is getting irritating now.

Just because you theoretically disagree with something doesn't make is scummy. To call it '
incredibly scummy'
means it's something scum would do and Town wouldn't do, which you have no evidence or rational logic to support. Does Town create lynch pools? Invariably they do. Is there anything inherently scummy about limiting the number of considered lynch candidates based on the evidence available? Of course there isn't - this is something everyone does to some degree, the difference is I'm being open about it because a) I'm the most trusted Townie and my opinion currently holds most influence, b) we have half the normal amount of RL days available so need to condense our scumhunting where possible and c) we already have a lot of information available in order to sort the players who are more likely to flip scum.
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Post Post #687 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:40 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

In post 681, Impede wrote:
In post 653, Luca Blight wrote:I'm gonna chop the lynch pool down to three.

LaserGuy
Impede
Zaraki

One of these is being lynched today.
I responded to Laser's "case" against me in in my . The issue kinda fell dead after that.
If you have concerns, it's much more town-beneficial to air them and question the individuals regarding their behavior than just throw out blanket lynch lists.


Worth noting that I also completely agree that there is 1-2 scum in this list.
Don't worry, I know how to play Mafia. I've just been too busy to make substantial posts of late so I've settled for posting the updated lynch pools until I have time to properly air my thoughts.
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Post Post #688 (ISO) » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:18 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

I will be going through the three lynch candidates' ISO's and will condense my thoughts about them into one post for each.

LaserGuy


, etc - I didn't like the early townread for Cy, nor the reasoning for it. I'm wondering if LaserGuy still feels similarly about Cy?

- Shortly after saying so confidently Cy was Town, he then links him to being a possible scum partner with Zaraki. Gives me the feeling either LaserGuy decided he wants to keep his options open regarding Cy, or perhaps LaserGuy could be Zaraki's partner but wants others in the frame in case he's lynched. His Luca/Lucky theory is BS, and his point on Comm feels weird - he's posing a half-hearted question that he clearly has no intention of following up on. A lot of general, non-committal reads in this catch-up post in general which does nothing to inspire me.

- Explaining his Luca/Lucky theory. LaserGuy seems to disregard most of my posts up until this point, choosing instead to base a read on me solely on the Lucky interaction in such a reachy fashion. He says the debate wasn't genuine as we didn't follow up on Comm's catch-up post, but my issue was clearly with Lucky and never with Comm. It feels like a very lazy theory which he never really pursues fully or shows any sign of reconsidering. I feel like he uses this theory as a platform on which to sit throughout D1 so he doesn't have to take a hard stance on anyone else. Also, did LaserGuy follow up on his Comm question? No.

- He sometimes makes big wall posts like these that look busy, but really he's just asking passive question after passive question and not really doing a whole lot. Did he ever take that meta-dive on UCV as promised? There was no further mention of it. He quotes a couple of lines from me and Lucky which he says he doesn't believe (no reasoning given) to keep up the Luca/Lucky scumteam narrative. He votes Lucky based on f*ck all. I feel like his ongoing attack on Lucky/me could be a chainsaw defence of UCV.

- He changes his argument about me/Lucky here - he initally said he thought we were scumbuddies because we were arguing about Comm but then didn't follow up on Comm's catch-up post, meaning we weren't really interested in him. He's now saying he never thought I was bothered by Comm, but still thinks we're scum because we had a spurious argument.

- Tries to bait Athena into attacking me while saying he doesn't want to join the UCV wagon - I'm sure I don't need to explain why this looks bad. He also said he's happy with his vote where it is, even though, like I said at the time, his vote on Lucky was merely a vanity wagon that he seemed content just to sit on without purpose.

- An awkwardly-worded justification of not voting UCV. He's clearly defending UCV here, but at the same time leaving himself open to the option of bussing. His null read on UCV isn't natural at this point, given all the AI information UCV had provided. He criticises my case on UCV, but has no better to offer for his own lynch preference, Lucky.

- As I mentioned, this post pinged me because he's scumreading me yet withholds his reasons because he knows UCV will soon be lynched, which he admits would make me almost conf town. This is a resigned-looking post, where he is grudgingly coming to accept that he has to change his stance on me being scum. I feel like Town here would offer up their thoughts without being so aware of the potential upcoming lynch.

- Despite having a decent enough case on Impede, LaserGuy abandons it at the drop of a hat and jumps on the lurker wagon instead. Possible Impede/LaserGuy scumteam? Either way, a dubious move.

While on the surface LaserGuy appears to be making a valid point, why would we lynch a lurker when there are perfectly good lynch candidates available who have actual evidence against them? The lurker could become a good, pro-town player at some point, or he may not, but rushing such a lynch is ridiculous and scummy, in my opinion.

- LaserGuy votes Impede again after my question to him, but it doesn't feel like a lynch he really believes in as he had not mentioned Impede since , and his vote feels rather weak with the reasoning 'I prefer him to Zaraki'.

I feel no urgency to find scum in LaserGuy's play, and I feel he is likely to flip red.
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Post Post #689 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:09 am

Post by Luca Blight »

Another thing with LaserGuy - what happened to his scumread of Zaraki?
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Post Post #690 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:12 am

Post by Lucky2u »

Oh right, this game. Let me get to a computer tonight and I'll throwdown some thoughts
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Post Post #691 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:04 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

I was hoping to wait for a bit of interaction between each ISO'ing, but no-one is posting so f*ck it.

VOTE: LaserGuy

I will revisit Zaraki and Impede Tomorrow.
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Post Post #692 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:22 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In post 688, Luca Blight wrote:
In post 676, CultOfAthena wrote:As an example of the distinction, for now I'm treating Luca as conftown but I personally believe the lynch restriction was an incredibly scummy thing to do.
This is getting irritating now.

Just because you theoretically disagree with something doesn't make is scummy.
I don't believe I ever implied that it's scummy just because I disagree with it.
To call it '
incredibly scummy'
means it's something scum would do and Town wouldn't do, which you have no evidence or rational logic to support. Does Town create lynch pools? Invariably they do. Is there anything
inherently
scummy about limiting the number of considered lynch candidates based on the evidence available? Of course there isn't - this is something everyone does to some degree, the difference is I'm being open about it because a) I'm the most trusted Townie and my opinion currently holds most influence, b) we have half the normal amount of RL days available so need to condense our scumhunting where possible and c) we already have a lot of information available in order to sort the players who are more likely to flip scum.
I've highlighted the key word here - inherently. You're arguing against me in a general sense, but everything I've said has been within the context of this game specifically.

Calling something "incredibly scummy" doesn't mean that only scum would do it, it means that to me it's far more likely to come from scum than from town. I do have rational logic to support this idea. In this setup scum don't have the ability to control the conversation through the nightkill that they typically do. They can't kill off the voices that they don't want heard. If, however, they can discredit or otherwise shut down what those people are saying before they've even said it, then the game is already theirs. Yes, both town and scum will create lynch pools, but you've specifically pushed yourself as being totally in control of who we lynch today. Lynchpools normally represent a single person's
desires
as opposed to their
demands
. I've already made these points before - I don't think you ever responded to them.
In post 549, CultOfAthena wrote:Smart people can make bad decisions. Someone who got one scum can be completely off on their reads. Even someone who looks like confirmed town could still be scum. The point I'm trying to make is that what you're doing is completely counterproductive, in the true sense of the word involving productivity. If people see those five people as the scummiest then discussion will naturally center around them. Attempting to stifle any discussion outside of that group doesn't "focus" things, it causes pointless strife and acts as a lazy excuse for avoiding discussion. In fact, attempting to control the discussion is probably one of the most anti-town actions I can think of in this setup - scum can't kill off the voices they don't want to be heard, but if they can attempt to shut down anything they're saying before it's even said then the disadvantage is null.

I have points I think are valid regarding people outside of your group - you're not going to stop me from making them. If you're going to argue against that or completely ignore them just on principle, consider what you're really accomplishing by doing so.

Please don't take this as pointless debate. If you're town, I'm trying to tell you why I think you're making a mistake. If you're scum, hopefully this gives other people pause, as well as reason to not simply take things as they are presented.
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Post Post #693 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:30 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

And who's the voice scum would have chosen to silence if they had a NK? Undeniably mine, which is why I must be the strongest voice for today.

I'm not shutting down or discrediting anyone. This argument in itself is more anti-town than my lynch pool ever was, so let it drop and talk about something relevant, please.
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Post Post #694 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:44 pm

Post by mozamis »

Lucca - iagree Laser is int ehlynch pool. Bt could you please vote Cult?
Look at her recent posts - there was another "please tell me what you dont like about my posts" kinda line
You've reached that age, Listy. 24, 25...Your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag of surrender and without any warning at all, you're suddenly a fat bastard...
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Post Post #695 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:44 pm

Post by mozamis »

this is scum "survivalism"
You've reached that age, Listy. 24, 25...Your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag of surrender and without any warning at all, you're suddenly a fat bastard...
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Post Post #696 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:47 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In post 697, mozamis wrote:
this is scum "survivalism"
I've already responded to this idea in - also, please look at .
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Post Post #697 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:49 pm

Post by Luca Blight »

I'm still undecided on Athena. I want a LaserGuy lynch today.
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Post Post #698 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:58 pm

Post by mozamis »

hey I'm "a jack of all trades" how/why did that happen?!
You've reached that age, Listy. 24, 25...Your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag of surrender and without any warning at all, you're suddenly a fat bastard...
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Post Post #699 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

Given that nobody seems to be picking up on what I've been saying, I'll say it a little more explicitly -
mozamis is scum
.

He's not actually playing the game in any manner that realistically comes from town. His scumread on me supposedly comes entirely from my relation to the UCV lynch, but anyone actually thinking things through would realize that this isn't even itself a scumtell, nor a reason for someone to be your top scumread. It's fake. He's also twice now dodged giving any concrete reasoning for why he suspects me (in more obviously, in by commenting on my post more than responding to it), I assume because it would reveal how little reason he actually holds.

Even more, the zulfy wagon was terrible. is practically a scumclaim, especially in the light of what I quoted earlier:
In post 573, CultOfAthena wrote: Also, here's a nice little bit of irony that I found looking back through the game:
In post 330, UC Voyager wrote:VOTE: Zulfy
im leaving this here until he makes a post or two.
In post 344, mozamis wrote:so why are you voit ng somone who has barel yposted and who has no chance of getting lynched?
In post 346, mozamis wrote:doesnt really look like scumhunting tbh
Mozamis claimed that he had reasons and that it was a genuine scum lynch as opposed to just a lurker lynch, but again has avoided providing any sort of reasoning (for the same reason, I suspect). These aren't the genuine thoughts and progressions of an uninformed townie, these are the efforts of scum.

Other people seem to have avoided giving opinions on him so I'd appreciate if everyone could give their opinions on this.

In post 695, Luca Blight wrote:And who's the voice scum would have chosen to silence if they had a NK? Undeniably mine, which is why I must be the strongest voice for today.

I'm not shutting down or discrediting anyone. This argument in itself is more anti-town than my lynch pool ever was, so let it drop and talk about something relevant, please.
Quite easily deniable, but I'm entirely willing to leave the conversation as it stands.

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