Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Toto]

Von, do you have scum reads?

If so, elaborate.

[Toto]

@LUV if you are town (which I think you are) it would help if you point out which things you find scummy or townie as you see them and explain a bit better your reads (i.e. help town see the things you are seeing, and play the game).

[Thor665]

@thor

whats your read on Desp/Von

I disagree with pretty much all the Desp attacks except for Bulba's which...sounds legit, but I equally have reservations that it *is* legit since I don't think scum Desp would be that dumb.
I've come out against the wagon already and generally still hold that view.
I'd rather not see him lynched mostly because the wagon lacks internal unity, and thus feels lazy and hard to assign accountability and assessment to.

I'm fine with the anti-Von energy but see no reason to bother endorsing the wagon for the same reasons I have no issue with the wagon. it's a push on emptiness - I think that's perfectly valid play, but I also see no reason to endorse it over a wagon with a case on it.
Like, say, Ram. Who continues to be dodgy and is refusing to engage with me honestly despite repeated chances being offered.
What do you think of my attempts to engage Ram and his repeated twisting away from it?

[RachMarie]

LUV since you are here for a moment, could you give us more about your reads on group C?

[Toto]

@Thor

I'm assuming you mean these couple of exchanges. Let me know I missed any.

I felt at some point that you were putting words in his mouth.
I feel in general you are talking past each other.
I don't think Ram has avoided engaging with you.

The only thing Ram didn't (directly) answer is if he thinks Ali was town, which I agree is somewhat weird, but not sure if I'm convinced by this given your reputation of making people trip in their own words regardless of your alignment. @Ram can you explain how you think Ali was town, other than your role PM?

@Thor. Can you ask Ram simple / direct questions without assuming what he is trying to do. Also why did you think Ali was scum and what do you think about my replace out explanation for them being town. How is this different from BlackVoid's replace out in our previous game together.

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram - yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there.

Well, i'm town, but you scum probably, so yes, no issue i guess, carry on

I will take that as cowardly admittance that your core "complaint" about my push on you is meaningless and that you were just trying to act like my push was weak, when you recognize it is valid.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you can.

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

I'm just defending from your crass and meaningless case dismissal of me, that you know you did, and now you're playing word games to avoid admitting.

I've played with Alisae quite a number of times.
I actually would suggest that as long as you have people who know how to read Alisae, then town reads are usually what you get.
I don't see that happening here.

What's your experience with Alisae and do you think their play was towny?

In pretty much every game Ali got scumread, so either you have different experience somehow or you feel like you are very good at reading him. That comes from simple fact, you locked on read, you don't think "Ali is scumread most of time, so i will see what his replacement will tell", no, you just ignored me.

Now for the case, can you explain how i can know why Ali scumread people, why Ali townread other people? Or why he changed his read, when he did as momo case on me goes? Sorry, but Ali didn't left notes for me

[Vaxkiller]

Catch up was bad

Yeah, we are looking for Heinz and he gave us Hunts.

[RachMarie]

no response from LUV

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Group C:

Desp - Scum
Ram - Town
Checker - Null
You - Null
Gin - Town
Transcend - Town
Von - Scum

[Transcend]

ketchup in general is horrible

unpopular opinion i have here but how the fuck can you even eat that shit without immediately engaging the gag reflex

[RachMarie]

You and I are on the same page on the scum reads LUV but why so many null reads?

[Thor665]

I felt at some point that you were putting words in his mouth.
I feel in general you are talking past each other.
I don't think Ram has avoided engaging with you.

1. No - I'm not. There is a marked difference between 'putting words in someone's mouth' and 'offering my opinion on what you're saying'. I'm being very clear when I do the latter, and I've not been doing the former at all.
2. Sure - but why?
3. Yet you immediately follow with admitting he, on at least one occasion, kinda did...

The only thing Ram didn't (directly) answer is if he thinks Ali was town, which I agree is somewhat weird, but not sure if I'm convinced by this given your reputation of making people trip in their own words regardless of your alignment.

So because I have a reputation of catching people in their own mistakes you're not sure it's a mistake?
Wouldn't that just make it an obvious mistake, and the only question is whether it's scummy or not?

@Thor. Can you ask Ram simple / direct questions without assuming what he is trying to do.

I think I'm already doing exactly that; let's look at a few of my questions, shall we?

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram -

yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there

.

I will take that as cowardly admittance that your core "complaint" about my push on you is meaningless and that you were just trying to act like my push was weak, when you recognize it is valid.

Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you can

.

What's your experience with Alisae and do you think their play was towny?

Considering how you appear to know how often Alisae is scumread - did you check into, say, my games with her?

Those are all very direct, and I've gotten mush mouth for;
Every.
Single.
One.

Why?

Also why did you think Ali was scum and what do you think about my replace out explanation for them being town. How is this different from BlackVoid's replace out in our previous game together.

I found Ali scum for a number of reasons, but would generally sum it up as Ali (who has a lot of experience) claiming (for no apparent reason) that only scum would push strongly on a weak tell.
Like, she knows that's BS, basically admitted it was BS, yet acted as if it was sweet smelling scumhunting.
That' scummy.

There are a large number of differences between the two replace outs, and that you are acting like they're remotely equal level replace outs makes me squint (I'd love to see you expand on this as an idea you believe in if you can). My very short answer is this; Ali is easy to read when she gets emotional - she chose to escape the game before getting emotional even though she is aware that;
1. People who know how to read her do this.
2. That she is easy to read when this happens.

Which wincon does that seem more likely to support? I'll even agree she could have done it as town, but it also looks potentially strategic, and even if not strategic she also left long before hitting her usual emotional levels that are used to read her which makes me question the level of emotion she actually hit. I know she didn't hit her town level, which means I also know the emotion wasn't as high as you appear to think it was.

[Ginngie]

I like this post from Thor

it makes me happy

[Thor665]

@Toto

Let me even give my version of the discussion between Ram and I - and you tell me how you think it's a conversation with a town Ram and/or show me where I'm misrepresenting what was said;

Thor: Ali slot is scum
Ram: Thor's case is BS because it's based on Ali's play and not my play. Look, he even voted me by voting the previous slot holder!!!
Thor: Yeah, that's true - how is that an issue?
Ram: I'm town!
Thor: What's that have to do with having an issue with me voting due to Ali as opposed to voting due to you?
Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.
Thor: Then why did you complain about it to attack my vote as though my vote were bad or scummy in any way at all?
Ram: ...
Thor

[Ginngie]

Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.

citation plz

[Thor665]

Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.

citation plz

Lern2red

viewtopic.php?p=9800501#p9800501

[Ginngie]

"I can see clearly now"

[Transcend]

Did someone get lynched yet

[Lil Uzi Vert]

You and I are on the same page on the scum reads LUV but why so many null reads?

2 is not many

[Ramcius]

Like, say, Ram. Who continues to be dodgy and is refusing to engage with me honestly despite repeated chances being offered.
What do you think of my attempts to engage Ram and his repeated twisting away from it?

i'm here, we can talk about what i have done in this game, but you don't want, you want talk about Ali play, which i haven't read, i asked people if i should read thread, only answer came from Creature in kinda "maybe" form, i looked at top posters, saw Checkers, Trans, my pred (didn't knew it was Ali at the time), Creature, Eli at top and all names that were relevant (group B) were low posters, so i simply decided read ISOs.

[Ramcius]

@Toto

Let me even give my version of the discussion between Ram and I - and you tell me how you think it's a conversation with a town Ram and/or show me where I'm misrepresenting what was said;

Thor: Ali slot is scum
Ram: Thor's case is BS because it's based on Ali's play and not my play. Look, he even voted me by voting the previous slot holder!!!
Thor: Yeah, that's true - how is that an issue?
Ram: I'm town!
Thor: What's that have to do with having an issue with me voting due to Ali as opposed to voting due to you?
Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.
Thor: Then why did you complain about it to attack my vote as though my vote were bad or scummy in any way at all?
Ram: ...
Thor

Yes, i said, it's valid, in a sense that you can make that read, but i don't have to agree with your read, what i am doing all this time

[Ginngie]

can I just say that's the biggest no shit sherlock moment in this game

[Ginngie]

Player A: I scum read you
Player B: well I don't think I'll agree with you


Like if your ass EVER agrees with Player A, when you're player B, you have a problem

[Ramcius]

Player A: I scum read you
Player B: well I don't think I'll agree with you


Like if your ass EVER agrees with Player A, when you're player B, you have a problem

Yes, we have, Thor: "I scumread Ali", Me: "Why you don't try read me? Ali isn't here anymore to defend himself and i can't talk for him" and we are stuck here

[Creature]

I gave the opportunity for someone to convince me on vonflare. Nobody took it.

[EddieFenix]

@mod Need replaced. Ghosting practically everywhere for awhile.