Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Toto]

There are a large number of differences between the two replace outs, and that you are acting like they're remotely equal level replace outs makes me squint (I'd love to see you expand on this as an idea you believe in if you can). My very short answer is this; Ali is easy to read when she gets emotional - she chose to escape the game before getting emotional even though she is aware that;
1. People who know how to read her do this.
2. That she is easy to read when this happens.

I think they are similar in the sense that they are both triggered by frustration towards the state of the game which they perceived to be bad for town and there was nothing they could do to change it. In the case of Alisae she was being scumread and probably felt it was underserved, or for bad reasons, as they were trying hard to scumhunt and play the game and felt they were playing as obvtown (they were).

You can see it building up in the game calling people 'lolmafiascum' so it's not an on the spot reaction. There is also evidence this sentiment is not something that has started on this game but they have expressed frustration against the site for a while now.

I feel it's more likely to be "you guys suck and don't know how to read me and will probably lose without me" kind of rage quit, than "omg they got me i'm going to pretend to rage quit so my successor can win" as you are interpreting it.

[Elliberetta]

I gave the opportunity for someone to convince me on vonflare. Nobody took it.

I mean it was just POE when he was afk.

And the amount he's posting stuff vs. the amount of day's left is kinda hard for me to piledrive directly in thread so

[Elliberetta]

Ellibereth has a little over a day and 20 hours to get vonflare to slip

BUT CAN HE DO IT IF VONFLARE DOESN'T POST

find out, next.

^^^

He can't do it if vonflare doesn't post LOL.

I tried a last ditch attempt to see if he was lying about his exam schedule but it looks like he wasn't lmao.

[Elliberetta]

Elli I saw that and I didn’t answer or do anything because I think I’m pretty obvious town here. I very rarely if ever get ran up early on when I’m scum and I’m usually universally town read early on as scum.

I can’t help that old timers want to lynch me because they disagree on how I play.

I mean dude.
You know you thinking you're obvious town isn't enough.

Like I can sit here and wave my arms and say you're obvtown by meta and I can barely convince most ppl when at this point I'm getting some doubts myself.

Like being townread as scum and scumread as town isn't like...a good thing yeah.

Like I don't think this is an old timers thing. I don't give a fuck about the people who disagree that you spamerinoing is bad. You're just HARD AFK here. And that's not how you're known to play.

[Creature]

*joins large theme game*
*has exams and lots of VLAs*

[Elliberetta]

on vonflare

the other way i get him is to do the poe is to show desp is town

but he's afk too

so I'm like ablhablhablbhbalhhahaa

[Elliberetta]

yeah lol I looked up his exam schedule if he said they were all over the last week I was going to get him lynched.

[Ginngie]

I think town LUV was like, 2000 posts in Civ mafia

[Ginngie]

yeah lol I looked up his exam schedule if he said they were all over the last week I was going to get him lynched.

I mean my finals week was this week, or last week considering it's now Sunday

I have no idea what school he goes too tho

[Elliberetta]

fyi I policy lynch lurkers for a reason

If they're replaced asap it's fine.

but when it's just vla into unlimitted prodge works.

an envirionment where scum can do that just shouldn't exist.

[Elliberetta]

yeah lol I looked up his exam schedule if he said they were all over the last week I was going to get him lynched.

I mean my finals week was this week, or last week considering it's now Sunday

I have no idea what school he goes too tho

I looked up his school and the dates for classes in what I think he's majoring in lol

[Ginngie]

l
m
f
a
o

[Elliberetta]

last ditch attempt is last ditch attempt lol

[Ginngie]

yeah lol I looked up his exam schedule if he said they were all over the last week I was going to get him lynched.

I mean my finals week was this week, or last week considering it's now Sunday

I have no idea what school he goes too tho

I looked up his school and the dates for classes in what I think he's majoring in lol

I just want you to know, if you put in this much work trying to appear town as scum, then holy shit.

[Elliberetta]

yeah idk I feel like I could still charisma him down if I really wanted to but my heart isn't totally into it

I only do that when I feel 100% and stuff isn't quite there yet idk

[Elliberetta]

but yeah realistically. desp is unfortunately happening unless there's a massive status quo shift in the next day

[Elliberetta]

something like this
I can probably parse out a few more on the outside groups if i tried but

GROUP A
Eddie
Assemble
WhyMafia

Group B
Jiffy
Snarky
Thor
CMM

GROUP C
vflare
Desp
Gingie
Rach

but yeah
i called rach town after this so the only difference is vflare

ehhhh I guess I can't complain too much
idk
something feels off

I think like 90% of my reads are good here but something feels off

[Elliberetta]

maybe I'll do a mastina and complain that the game environment atm is one of the bad ones for me as player lmao

[Elliberetta]

6:45 am musings of an Ellibereth

whatever I'll stop making excuses sooner than later hopefully

I can still break this game.

[Toto]

your list sucks because:

1) I should not be in the list
2) there is only two scum in each group

So 90% seems a bit optimistic.

[Ellibereth]

no my townreads are sick

[Elliberetta]

like i'm wrong on one person not on there max i think

[Elliberetta]

but yeahyeah you're town until further notice have a cat biscuit

[Bulbazak]

Let's see:

There are players that actually think he's scum and isn't just policy lynching him for not doing anything like we have done with CMM. He has been a major counterwagon to both Ginngie and Ramcius.

You defending Desp lynch, but what info we get? Who is scum, if he flip red? Who is scum, if he flip green?

If he's scum, we either get rid of a traitor, which is one less scum PR, or we get rid of a goon. If Desp is a goon, that gives us associatives to track down all the other goons. If Desp is town, then we look at the reasons he was pushed and see if anything doesn't line up. We also compare the wagon to the Mick wagon and see if anything shakes out. Compared to Vonflare, people have actually taken hard stances on Desp, which means it will be easier to root out scum. Vonflare is a lurker lynch, which doesn't provide us with as much information, because it's easy to lynch a lurker and not give reasons.

I mean you've heard from several people in thread that he tries as town

in response to that he comes in and tries To:townthoughts: for 10m but theyr e all bad and not town thoughts

bad =/= scum

I like this post from Thor

it makes me happy

I think I've worked around to both Thor and Majiffy being town. It didn't make sense for them both to be scum given what we've seen, and I always had a problem buying the scum reads on the slots, because it always felt like there was an agenda being pushed there. There are definitely people not liking how Thor and Majiffy play and equating that as scum, but there's also something else at play here. Those pushes on the slots definitely feel like they weren't earned.

yeah lol I looked up his exam schedule if he said they were all over the last week I was going to get him lynched.

I mean my finals week was this week, or last week considering it's now Sunday

I have no idea what school he goes too tho

I looked up his school and the dates for classes in what I think he's majoring in lol

I just want you to know, if you put in this much work trying to appear town as scum, then holy shit.

That's why I have Elli as a "no duh" townread, and I really don't want to imagine her being scum here.

@Elli: I think Desp is just trying to lay low here and hoping the pressure goes away.

[Thor665]

I think they are similar in the sense that they are both triggered by frustration towards the state of the game which they perceived to be bad for town and there was nothing they could do to change it. In the case of Alisae she was being scumread and probably felt it was underserved, or for bad reasons, as they were trying hard to scumhunt and play the game and felt they were playing as obvtown (they were).

I will agree they are both replace outs citing frustration (which puts them into about 50% of replace outs, as the others cite availability).
But how exactly do you see them lining up after that broad stroke delineation?
Because this is the bare minimum of describing a frustration replace out. And they're not 100% town motivated.

I mean, let's look at the terrible pressure she was under...it wasn't much (unlike the other game).
It was also clearly described (unlike the other game).
It was also possible for her to debate these points, but she opted not to (unlike the other game).
Communication was hard shut down (unlike the other game).
And it happened very early, during a stage where it made sense for people to suspect her (unlike the other game).

But you see all of that as meaningless and the replace out generically townish?
Do you see 100% of frustration replace outs as townish?
Because I saw a scum one, like, just last month. It cited poor town play as the reason. It built up during the game. They happen all the time.
How do you define them as different/disagree with my above?
Because, obviously and objectively they happen, and they cite identical reasons - so you either need to be able to tell me how you tell them apart or you need to be able to admit they're non-alignment indicative. I'm fine with you picking either option or coming up with a third track that I don't see here and describing it to me so I can understand it - but blanket calling them town with no analysis is super empty, yeah?

There is also evidence this sentiment is not something that has started on this game but they have expressed frustration against the site for a while now.

That supports those claiming lack of alignment revelation, which is the reverse of your position - yeah?

Also, as we continue this discussion, I note you didn't address my question as to *why* Ram and I are talking past each other (because I think it's pretty clearly all from his end. Which should beg a question, yeah?) Or how he's continuing to try to hide behind Alisae's play and denigrate the position of attacking Alisae's play at the same time.