Newbie 1839: Game over

[GuiltyLion]

I don't have much chance to win

possibly a silly question, but you understand that town players win when the town wins even if they've died, right?

[GuiltyLion]

Welp. I know who my next wagon is on.

This is an odd comment - if you're scumreading someone more heavily than talon you should vote them instead. If you still want to flip talon then how could you want to wagon someone else before you even know what talons alignment is?

[Impede]

No rush though. We have over a week remaining in D1.

pedit: @guilty: You'll see. Not every witch hunt is intended to hunt witches.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: acidphoenix

starting to think 3M might be town

Impede is gonna be a tough one for me this game

[JunkoChan]

Impede is gonna be a tough one for me this game

I blame replacements.

[wavemode]

V/LA til Saturday for finals

[nancy]

Votecount 1.04

talon152 (4)

~ HeWhoSwims, acidphoenix, Impede, 3 Masons in a Trenchcoat

3 Masons in a Trenchcoat (2)

~ wavemode, RedFlavor

RedFlavor (1)

~ JunkoChan

acidphoenix (1)

~ GuiltyLion

Not Voting (1)

~ talon152

With 9 alive, 5 votes are needed to lynch.
Day 1 ends in (expired on 2017-12-21 20:42:18).

[talon152]

Impede - Townlean - Mostly based on tone tbh
Guilty - Townlean - Maybe just because I agree with most of his reasoning so far but don''t really agree with his backing off on both junko and mason
Acid - Null read - Posting tier lists without much reasoning. Nothing overtly scummy I guess.
Wave - Null read - I like that he is not afraid to argue against popular opinion, but not sure how to read it.
Hewhoswims - null read - He has been making valid points but seems like he is trying to defend junko just enough but also keep the proper distance. Maybe a scumteam with Junko. A good player either way I think though.
Red - scumlean - Started pushing right away, got defensive and backed off when challenged.
Mason - Scumlean - I feel he has been following the bandwagon but also seems unclear of why. when called out on it his attitude of "whatever I am dead anyway" seems like he is trying to put on a front of a townie that is just confused (mislynch).
Junko - Scumread - I feel that she has been active without contributing that much to find the scum, trying come off as townie. She wants to elect a town leader which i imagine might be less likely to lynch the person advocating to put them in power. (also maybe scum partner?)

<vote> Junkochan </vote>

[talon152]

VOTE: Junkochan

[Impede]

UNVOTE:

That's more like it. Let's see if we can keep you engaged going forward Talon. No one likes a lurker.

[Impede]

Yeah. I think this is the right move today.

VOTE: 3 Masons

That's L-2 again.

[GuiltyLion]

The posts aren't convincing in that "this player is scum because these reasons." It's convincing in a strategic sense. People want to see more out of talon, and I'm able to put him at L-1. Being at L-2, it makes the most sense to set someone else at L-1.

I've been thinking about this, especially revisiting it again after seeing Impede pivot off of talon and back to you and I'm definitely gonna need more here. Initially I thought this was a townish post in its brazen honesty but I can also see how scum could be honest about this being the motivation for their vote while still making a scum-motivated vote. And if arguments about voting talon were "convincing in a strategic sense", that wasn't really clear by your 127 because you explicitly then refuse to actually go on and vote talon (because you were worried about how it would be perceived).

I'd still like you to cite the literal post(s) that actually made you convinced to vote talon prior to 127, and I'd also like any thoughts you have on my 137. Why didn't you respond to it?

less on the fence about Impede now, I like the quick turnaround on talon and I think if he were scum he'd be a bit more cautious around the hypocrisy of his 129 by coming back to vote Mason. If Mason is scum then Impede's definitely in the Cool Kids Club

also still down for an acid wagon if anyone wants to join on that

[3 Masons in a Trenchcoat]

The posts aren't convincing in that "this player is scum because these reasons." It's convincing in a strategic sense. People want to see more out of talon, and I'm able to put him at L-1. Being at L-2, it makes the most sense to set someone else at L-1.

I've been thinking about this, especially revisiting it again after seeing Impede pivot off of talon and back to you and I'm definitely gonna need more here. Initially I thought this was a townish post in its brazen honesty but I can also see how scum could be honest about this being the motivation for their vote while still making a scum-motivated vote. And if arguments about voting talon were "convincing in a strategic sense", that wasn't really clear by your 127 because you explicitly then refuse to actually go on and vote talon (because you were worried about how it would be perceived).

I'd still like you to cite the literal post(s) that actually made you convinced to vote talon prior to 127, and I'd also like any thoughts you have on my 137. Why didn't you respond to it?

less on the fence about Impede now, I like the quick turnaround on talon and I think if he were scum he'd be a bit more cautious around the hypocrisy of his 129 by coming back to vote Mason. If Mason is scum then Impede's definitely in the Cool Kids Club

also still down for an acid wagon if anyone wants to join on that

I didn't respond to 137 because I already cited two posts within 127. I cited 118 and 122 because both Impede and HWS stated their reads. However, like I said in 127, I was cautious to do so because I was accused of sheeping by Red in 108, which started the wagon rolling against me.

My reaponse would have been something along the lines of "reread my post," and I put that in the back of the line mentally as I replied to other posts. Then it just slipped my mind.

However, going back through these posts, I've noticed something interesting. I have a question for you, Guilty. Why am I town for post 153 and 153 alone? You started thinking I'm town, then 161 is back to hammering me. Is it really because I ignored uour post?

[3 Masons in a Trenchcoat]

I don't have much chance to win

possibly a silly question, but you understand that town players win when the town wins even if they've died, right?

As a late response to this, yes, I know. I just made a mental mistake. I've been making a lot of those.

Honestly, I've been sick as a dog since the game started. I want to attribute my awful playingto illness, but that's just making excuses. Believe me or not, I don't care. Don't let me being sick affect your judgement.

Seriously, I'm not fishing for pity. It's just that this cough is keeping me up past midnight. It's the only reason I'm posting right now.

[RedFlavor]

Impede - Townlean - Mostly based on tone tbh
Guilty - Townlean - Maybe just because I agree with most of his reasoning so far but don''t really agree with his backing off on both junko and mason
Acid - Null read - Posting tier lists without much reasoning. Nothing overtly scummy I guess.
Wave - Null read - I like that he is not afraid to argue against popular opinion, but not sure how to read it.
Hewhoswims - null read - He has been making valid points but seems like he is trying to defend junko just enough but also keep the proper distance. Maybe a scumteam with Junko. A good player either way I think though.
Red - scumlean - Started pushing right away, got defensive and backed off when challenged.
Mason - Scumlean - I feel he has been following the bandwagon but also seems unclear of why. when called out on it his attitude of "whatever I am dead anyway" seems like he is trying to put on a front of a townie that is just confused (mislynch).
Junko - Scumread - I feel that she has been active without contributing that much to find the scum, trying come off as townie. She wants to elect a town leader which i imagine might be less likely to lynch the person advocating to put them in power. (also maybe scum partner?)

<vote> Junkochan </vote>

What do you mean by saying backed off

[HeWhoSwims]

The only reason I'm not putting Junko at nullscum as opposed to null is that she's allowing herself to be read - a lot. I'm not sure if that would be a good play for scum if you're already drawing attention... Although it's hard to tell. I can definitely see everyone's suspicions though but I just have others as more suspicious.

]

[JunkoChan]

Impede - Townlean - Mostly based on tone tbh
Guilty - Townlean - Maybe just because I agree with most of his reasoning so far but don''t really agree with his backing off on both junko and mason
Acid - Null read - Posting tier lists without much reasoning. Nothing overtly scummy I guess.
Wave - Null read - I like that he is not afraid to argue against popular opinion, but not sure how to read it.
Hewhoswims - null read - He has been making valid points but seems like he is trying to defend junko just enough but also keep the proper distance. Maybe a scumteam with Junko. A good player either way I think though.
Red - scumlean - Started pushing right away, got defensive and backed off when challenged.
Mason - Scumlean - I feel he has been following the bandwagon but also seems unclear of why. when called out on it his attitude of "whatever I am dead anyway" seems like he is trying to put on a front of a townie that is just confused (mislynch).
Junko - Scumread - I feel that she has been active without contributing that much to find the scum, trying come off as townie. She wants to elect a town leader which i imagine might be less likely to lynch the person advocating to put them in power. (also maybe scum partner?)

<vote> Junkochan </vote>

Okay, this post screams self-aware to me, too carefully prepared, you started with pointing out how Wavemode got into de "likely town" list and made a list with your "reads" completly against what's been said.

You also picked me as your target, coincidentally the same person who said that Wavemode was being brave going against the current.

I'm not buying it, also at this point we want to reach a veredict and in my opinion, the votes being so split probably means that at least one of the players being pressured is scum and you know what you are doing? splitting them even more.

You also seem to be appealing to the players under less controversy as your "townreads".

maybe you thought this way your vote would be "less suspicious"?

Of course this could be all a newbmistake but if we take everything as a newbmistake we will never lynch someone

I'm now even more convinced that we are on the right track here.

[3 Masons in a Trenchcoat]

Impede - Townlean - Mostly based on tone tbh
Guilty - Townlean - Maybe just because I agree with most of his reasoning so far but don''t really agree with his backing off on both junko and mason
Acid - Null read - Posting tier lists without much reasoning. Nothing overtly scummy I guess.
Wave - Null read - I like that he is not afraid to argue against popular opinion, but not sure how to read it.
Hewhoswims - null read - He has been making valid points but seems like he is trying to defend junko just enough but also keep the proper distance. Maybe a scumteam with Junko. A good player either way I think though.
Red - scumlean - Started pushing right away, got defensive and backed off when challenged.
Mason - Scumlean - I feel he has been following the bandwagon but also seems unclear of why. when called out on it his attitude of "whatever I am dead anyway" seems like he is trying to put on a front of a townie that is just confused (mislynch).
Junko - Scumread - I feel that she has been active without contributing that much to find the scum, trying come off as townie. She wants to elect a town leader which i imagine might be less likely to lynch the person advocating to put them in power. (also maybe scum partner?)

<vote> Junkochan </vote>

Okay, this post screams self-aware to me, too carefully prepared, you started with pointing out how Wavemode got into de "likely town" list and made a list with your "reads" completly against what's been said.

You also picked me as your target, coincidentally the same person who said that Wavemode was being brave going against the current.

I'm not buying it, also at this point we want to reach a veredict and in my opinion, the votes being so split probably means that at least one of the players being pressured is scum and you know what you are doing? splitting them even more.

You also seem to be appealing to the players under less controversy as your "townreads".

maybe you thought this way your vote would be "less suspicious"?

Of course this could be all a newbmistake but if we take everything as a newbmistake we will never lynch someone

I'm now even more convinced that we are on the right track here.

I find it suspicious that you are now firm in believing talon is scum, yet you're still not voting for him. If you're looking for a verdict, why don't you make one?

Are you unsure in your position and you don't want to hammer him? Or perhaps you're scum who knows talon is town and you're trying to avoid being the hammer on a mislynch.

[JunkoChan]

I find it suspicious that you are now firm in believing talon is scum, yet you're still not voting for him. If you're looking for a verdict, why don't you make one?

Are you unsure in your position and you don't want to hammer him? Or perhaps you're scum who knows talon is town and you're trying to avoid being the hammer on a mislynch.

huh? I already said I WANT the hammer for today, how is that incoherent or suspicious? talon is at L-2 right now, so how can you logically think that I'm scared to be the hammer on a mislynch?

how can you logically think that I won't be okay hammering talon after the posts with my reads?

btw this is yet another silly question but, are you implying that the other vote was correct? cuz if I'm not hammering talon, I'm hammering you. And yeah I'm confident in my position, thank you very much.

Explain your logic because right now this sounds like a desperate cry for survival.

[JunkoChan]

to make things clear as a sort of TL/DR I would be okay with any of the last four getting lynched today.

Like I said before

I would swap my vote for pressure here but that would put us at L-1

Just fot reference: the last 4 were talon, 3 masons, Red Flavor and acidphoenix.

[Impede]

Decided I needed to be confident in this 3M wagon, so I did an ISO dive. Dude is all but confirmed scum imo. I also think Guilty is his scumbuddy (if he flips red). I scumlensed pretty hard though, so someone more objective should make sure I'm not insane. See below.

Spoiler: wall post

Well, well, well, everyone. The game is afoot. Seven of us are town, two are mafia. So far, we have a 22.22% of guessing a scum in the random voting stage.

I don't consider myself a betting man, and slightly better than 1-in-5 is not the type of gamble I'm willing to take. We don't have any sources for town-reading or scum-reading, so I suggest we introduce ourselves. We can't very well read anyone if there's nothing to read.

Call me Mason. I'm new to the site, as is clear, but I've had a decent amount of experience in Town of Salem. I'd be glad to meet you all, even if you're scum. Mafia, feel free to introduce yourselves as well.

This is LAMIST (Look At Me I'm So Town). It's also pretty eager for a disappointed newb townie who just got their VT role PM, and a town PR would want to stay under the radar and not draw a ton of attention to themselves. He makes a point of saying "even if you're scum"

VOTE: 3 Masons in a Trenchcoat

I suppose that I earned that vote by my first post somehow. Are you trying to read, or just going at random?

This is epically paranoid. I wouldn't expect experienced scum to ever say this, but newbscum... maybe...

Oh! The mythical Day Cop! Well, wavecop must clearly be town-aligned then. I'm so glad we can trust him.

The first of many posts where he talks a LOT about alignment. Talking about alignment in terms of absolutes rather than feeling, even in a joke post, is a tell from someone who is alignment informed (scum). More on this further down.

VOTE: JunkoChan

this is not a random vote

But why

I want to know your reasoning behind your "non-random" vote as well.

This comes off as distancing to me. Might be conf bias though.

First I want to know if you two can see where I'm coming from

in either of your opinion(s), what are her posts actually doing?

Well, IMO she's trying to lead the thought of the group. That isn't necessarily scummy behavior, and isn't always a bad choice. I think your'e drawing too much attention to yourself, Junko, but I'm not confident enough yet to put in my vote.

Weird post. Maybe alignment informed.

3.What's your read on Redflavor?

He was fine until he went full R with this line:

And I think lionGuilty was bussing their friend so junko is other scum

which contradicts his previous post:

Yes I really think you are scum trying to find a reason to vote junko

VOTE: GuiltyLion

so which one is it? a scum looking for a reason to bw a townie? or a scum busing his partner?

he also brings the wifom possibility, I believe the odds of one of you being mafia is worth looking into.

@GuiltyLion I still don't know how I feel about you town reading the person who townread you but I'm also leaning towards townreading Hewhoswims.

I agree with Junko here. Redflavor seems like a strong scumread with his actions. Alongside that, there's the fact that he brought up the BP reveal out of nowhere. A BP reveal seems like a bad idea for the town in a game like this. The BP reveal would benefit the mafia, as Junko and HeWhoSwims explained earlier, so I think that he's scum.

Also, to use his own logic from Post 39, isn't it possible that Red is a scum trying to start a bandwagon against a townie? Or perhaps by Post 42 logic, Red is bussing GuiltyScumLion. Either way, I have my vote.

VOTE: RedFlavor

Well looks like I might be wrong about Junko, that's a good post

VOTE: 3 Masons

If Junko is town, 36 looks worse. It feels awkward and the "you're drawing too much attention to yourself" comment only makes sense if 3 Masons thinks (or perhaps knows) that Junko is town

Well, you're not wrong. I believe Junko is town. I believe you're town as well. Both of you are discussing the benefits of options from the town perspective in your arguments. Redflavor is focused only on who gets lynched, and not whether thay would be good for the town. He's scum and already knows who he is going to lynch. If this were D2 or beyond, then I would understand having someone you're targeting without discussion. The first night could give you information, especially if you're the cop. Unfortunately, Wavemode's Day Cops don't exist. Therefore, Redflavor is most likely a scum who is confident in his vote.

Lots of buddying here. Throwing just the right amount of shade. Going after Red seemed opportunistic then, and even moreso now. This logic just doesn't hold water and it reeks of scum trying to drum up vote rationale.

So I want to lynch scum and I'm thinking that a scum lynch will not be good for town?

Well, if you bothered to read the second half of that post you quoted, I believe Guilty isn't scum. Whether or not it's correct, and whether or not it is a smart choice, most of us five active players believe Guilty is town.

Guilty claims Junko is scum. You, Red, claim Guilty is scum who is bussing other scum. Why would Guilty bus Junko D1? I find your claim hard to believe.

Either 1) Provide further evidence that Guilty is scum
Or 2) Explain why scum would point out other scum D1
Or 3) Explain why the hell you brought up revealing BP
Or 4) All of the above.

What's that smell? Oh it's the smell of scum towncredding their partner.

RedFlavor in post 39 seems to imply that Junko is town and that Guilty (who he sees as scum I guess) is finding an easy reason to vote and potentially start a BW on Junko/town. At least that's how it seems to me.

Yeah maybe we're reading it differently

Like, there are times scum will bus their partner in the early game just to create distance

So sometimes a read on someone will be "this guy A's reason for voting B this early in the game is really shitty, but I think A is too experienced a player to be making this bad of a push on a townie and risking his neck... so maybe he is bussing his partner"

That's honestly how I read what Red was saying there, that Guilty didn't have a good reason to vote Junko so perhaps this is just scum theater

I'm admittedly surprised to see this sort of reasoning in a newbie game, but it's very common in normals... and is

usually

wrong lol

So, Red did have legitimacy in the BP claim, but like HeWhoSwims I'm still seeing a lot of scum in Red's posts.

Though I feel like the whole discussion over Guilty pointing fingers at Junko is moot when his vote is aimed at me.

Drawing attention to Guilty's vote lends credence to the possibility of distancing. 3M also heavily uses townread players as backup for why he's justified. Possible buddying, definitely sheeping.

So, Red did have legitimacy in the BP claim, but like HeWhoSwims I'm still seeing a lot of scum in Red's posts.

Yeah so that's part of what I'm trying to understand more, I suppose. What specifically do you find scummy about Red's posts

You have yet to voice anything in your own words, besides the BP claim thing. You've simply said you agree with what others have said. So your specific reasoning is unclear to me

My read on RedFlavor is primarily through tone and voice. My basic reading strat so far has been reading the people who have been on the offensive as town actively searching mafia, while those who stick to few words and stay on the defensive are scum trying to not get scumread and lynched day 1. Red has had very small posts and (from what I understand) barely reads posts. Perhaps this is just a lazy player, and not a defensive one, but it's the reason my vote has been on Red.

I also had other reasons, but going back through them I have noticed flaws. I'm willing to change my vote if a morr likely candidate arises.

Blaming your read on a toneread is a free out. "Well it sounded like to to me, soooo...." It's completely subjective, and allows scum to participate in wagons even when their rationale might break down.
He also gives Guilty a free townread here based on his reading-offensive-as-town logic.

you can toneread me just most people are bad at it (to the point where I'm apparently a villagery wolf but an easy mislynch as village .-.)

his posts basically look like super easy mislynch bait and not actually scum (based on previous experience with lolmislynchbait)

the most mislynchable player if town is you red so

and obviously there's two scum but that doesn't mean there's two players I consider actively scummy(or even two players I consider not villagey but that's why I go by tiers in micros)

@junko I was prepared to actually reword it but then I couldnt find the incoherent thing so ?_?

Yeah. I'm inclined to agree that Red is more likely ML bait.

I think we can safely pursue this one for the time being:
VOTE: talon

Based on the evidence above, I believe that I was on the wrong track regarding Redflavor.

UNVOTE: RedFlavor

Town

GuiltyLion - He is missing in action but has contributed and enabled discussion. Have barely seen anything classifiable as scummy in there. I think we all agree on this one.

Nulltown

Impede - hasn't been around for long yet has contributed and given reads and opinions. 94 screams town to me imo. Putting him at nulltown for not having been around as long as the others --> therefore I'm just less confident if you see what I mean.

RedFlavor - I agree that he might be more of a townie being shaped up as ML target. He did that himself in the beginning with the contradiction but I'm turning around on him. Posted good reads.

Wavemode - Has been around, and although someone (Junko?) said he was focusing too much on the BP claim and even if so, I feel most of his content has signified that he is open to discuss (see me and him discussing the BP claim).

Null

JunkoChan - Has both positive things (in activity, and allowing people to get a feel of her) and negative things. There is still your content:contribution ratio that GuiltyLion mentioned and I feel you are really still onto the BP claim. Also you suggest me leading a lynch as a town leader. While as I said you are posting and being a presence in the game, both the BP claim and the town leader idea could be trying to push responsibility/blame onto others. For now, positive and negative balance each other out so here you are.

Acidphoenix - Hasn't contributed much and I'm not digging his content as much as that of other people with few posts.

Nullscum

Talon - Has been online but mostly been posting empty content. Barely more than a few sentences...

Mason - I can see what others are saying, that he is sheeping his leads which could be a maf trait; not coming across as suspicious at all when the lynch being sheeped is actually a suspect (RedFlavor was one) but still sliding by and possibly getting a mislynch... yes I can see what is being said and I wholly agree. It is suspicious.

Vote is still on Talon and I'm keeping it there for the time being.

So, if I understand correctly, HWS is reading me as potential scum because I've been following bandwagons, but I haven't been doing so intentionally. I'm pretty clearly the VI this game, but I've not been sheeping. If other people are voting for players who I also believe are scum, why shouldn't I agree?

I could have been completely wrong in my logic, and I'm pretty sure I was, but that's honestly me just being new. I do have reasons behind my behavior. It's just that all the ways I've thought of defending myself will pretty clearly lead to my death by either lynch or mafia.

At this point, the arguments I've seen towards Talon are convincing, but I'm in a catch 22. If I vote now, I'm sheeping. Hell, even if it's three days from now and I vote, it might still seem like sheeping. Trying to avoid the immediate bandwagon is reason I waited until post #51 to vote when five people voted on their first or second posts. I suppose I've learned not make the same mistake next time, but it seems a bit unfair to say I'm sheeping.

I'm sold now that this is actual real scum self-awareness. The "I'm pretty clearly" comment is presumptuous. I feel good about this right now.

[Impede]

I find it suspicious that you are now firm in believing talon is scum, yet you're still not voting for him. If you're looking for a verdict, why don't you make one?

Are you unsure in your position and you don't want to hammer him? Or perhaps you're scum who knows talon is town and you're trying to avoid being the hammer on a mislynch.

This reinforces my belief even more. You are scum. Let's lynch this.

[3 Masons in a Trenchcoat]

I find it suspicious that you are now firm in believing talon is scum, yet you're still not voting for him. If you're looking for a verdict, why don't you make one?

Are you unsure in your position and you don't want to hammer him? Or perhaps you're scum who knows talon is town and you're trying to avoid being the hammer on a mislynch.

huh? I already said I WANT the hammer for today, how is that incoherent or suspicious? talon is at L-2 right now, so how can you logically think that I'm scared to be the hammer on a mislynch?

how can you logically think that I won't be okay hammering talon after the posts with my reads?

btw this is yet another silly question but, are you implying that the other vote was correct? cuz if I'm not hammering talon, I'm hammering you. And yeah I'm confident in my position, thank you very much.

Explain your logic because right now this sounds like a desperate cry for survival.

Sorry. This is my mistake. I didn't see that Impede revoted against me. Mentally, I still had Talon at L-1.

[3 Masons in a Trenchcoat]

I find it suspicious that you are now firm in believing talon is scum, yet you're still not voting for him. If you're looking for a verdict, why don't you make one?

Are you unsure in your position and you don't want to hammer him? Or perhaps you're scum who knows talon is town and you're trying to avoid being the hammer on a mislynch.

This reinforces my belief even more. You are scum. Let's lynch this.

See above. I'm an idiot, not a scum.

[HeWhoSwims]

Impede definitely makes some good points and Mason is still on my suspect list.

Buttttt I'm really ticked off by Junko's reaction to Talon's reads. We want reads, no? Even reads by scum which might tell stuff. Your reaction resembles something OMGUS and if you're town, you're really discrediting yourself.

For me personally the suspects are acid, talon, Mason and a bit of acid (get active bud!).