Open 702: Vanilla Nightless Game Over

[cytheflyguy]

Archwing(4)

~ Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez, mozamis, Sesq, Luca Blight

Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez(2)

~ CultOfAthena, LaserGuy

Time to get a bit real here already. 2 scum are in this group of 6. Possibly 3 scum. But 2 for sure.

Check. Your turn scum.

VOTE: CommKnight

Sorry, but this rubs me the wrong way.

[cytheflyguy]

Do you have any counter reasons to my logic? It's only page 2 and I am making early reads to help my own process with it. I could keep it to myself or I can make it public. Fine by me either way really.

I can't counter what's not there. It's not what you said but the lack thereof. This game is a group effort. If you make a statement like that, please share with the rest of the class your reasoning. Otherwise, it looks like random fishing for a reaction.

[cytheflyguy]

So if I were fishing for a reaction, how do you think you'd fare in that department?

Also am I wrong? Can you prove it?

I fully realize I'm taking the bait, but I'm not one of the people you targeted so that holds no water, sadly.

And that's the thing. I cannot prove or disprove you being right or wrong. I'm simply pretty sure you just took a wild guess and now that someone is asking for reasoning you're trying to back yourself into a corner.

Your argument is a logical fallacy. Specifically Ad Ignorantum, where you are acting as if something is true simply because it has not been proven to be false. Of course I can't prove you to be wrong, regardless of role. Because of that, you would probably say something along the lines of "Well if it can't be proven false, then it must be true", when, in fact, that's not how logical arguments work, I'm afraid.

All I'm asking for is reasons, my dude. You looked suspicious for what you did and I asked for proof to back it up.

[cytheflyguy]

I'm not a fan of the cy townreads at all. It doesn't take a townie to point out logical fallacies. Trying to turn a game of mafia into debate club is actually a scumread for me - scum's knowledge of the game won't affect their posting at all if all they're doing is arguing logic or theory.

Impede, zaraki, LG, mind explaining what makes cy town in your eyes?

Okay so if this isn't debate club then what is this? The entire point of the game is to figure out who's lying. I can't pull a Phoenix Wright atm so I'm doing the next best thing.

[cytheflyguy]

@cy
Why did you vote Comm in 35?

Previous games with people like that. I didn't realize it'd end like it did but that's Mafia for you.

[cytheflyguy]

OK, so P.O.E time:

Town= Moz, Sesq, Lucca, Lucky, Zaraki, Comm

So scum in: archer, impede, cyber, cult, voyager, laser guy

thats four scum in 6 , good odds!

out of those 6, gun to head i would say scum team is: archer, impede, cult and voyager

Note: My name is cy

the

fly guy. Not

cyber

fly guy.

[cytheflyguy]

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

[cytheflyguy]

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

Oh shit typo with Lucky. I had comments on half of the people but then felt that my reasoning was too weak and tried to delete them. Obviously, I didn't do well enough :T

[cytheflyguy]

Cy, what makes you think CoA is towny?

Because of posts like this:

TT | Ts
--------
Ts | ss
-snip-

This is a fallacious or at best meaningless application of statistics, as bad as saying "he can't be scum, he rolled scum the last two games!". I'm not sure whether you belive it yourself or not but I'm inclined to think so. I'm not entirely sure what that says about your alignment, if anything at all.

he's gamesolving, argumentative, transparent and not doging the issue.
comm is town.

That's his personality you're seeing, not necessarily his alignment. Just because people were scumreading Comm for bad reasons doesn't mean townreading him for similarly bad reasons is a good idea either.

zaraki is prob town as well, very gamesolvy and arguing the toss and being emotional

Are you calling 90 gamesolving?

@cy
Why did you vote Comm in 35?

nevr mind the questions, what are your reads, opinions, analysis?

LAMIST.

MOD NOTES

UC Voyager replaces lucca261. Please thank and welcome UC Voyager!.

*sigh*

Because the reasoning in cy's response is only true if he is Town. Scum!cy obviously knows whether or not scum would be on the wagon and could easily prove it if he really wanted to.

What? Elaborate on this - cy's 39 seems entirely separated from his alignment.

The only way that cy cannot prove this to be true is if he is Town. Scum can easily prove this, they just wouldn't want to. The phrasing suggests that cy did not consider this.

No scum player with two brain cells to smash together would consider it either - it's such a far fetched idea that I don't think it's worth basing your read around.

Post #90 from Zaraki is a hot mess. There's a lot that's weird here... like he says he townread cy between 39 and 50 when he posted that read on #43. Gives cy credit both for my reasoning (dumb tell), but also having a well-composed post which... isn't really something that is hard to fake. Big probability argument that doesn't prove anything. This all looks like bs to me, and this seems like a really excessive explanation to his initial read in #43. I don't believe for a second this was his reasoning at the time he posted his townread of cy. Leaning scum on him, and if Zaraki is scum, would not be surprised if one of cy or Comm turns up scum as well.

I like this.

Sesq looking good. Lucky looking scummy, Luca too. (Did we seriously have a Lucca, Luca and Lucky? Can we lynch of these characters on general principle?)

Interested to hear the reasoning on your Luca read - it's opposite to the seeming consensus.

@laserguy lets not policy lynch, plus lucca replaced out, so there is just a Luca and Lucky

Where did you get the idea of a policy lynch from Laser's 167?

giving lucky a town pass for sheer effort.
he copuld be very good scum, but hes not a day 1 lynch

...what? Thanks for town reading me, but this is absolutely the wrong reason to.

I'm pretty sure I like this - it's not often that I see scum questioning townreads on them.

I like the bit about scum trying to get on a townblock. The only problem with it is that there are two "blocks" forming in this game right now that are buddying each other pretty heavily, and the way I see it, you could have scum in either or both.

That's true. The important part to look at is how each person joined (or attempted to join) the townblock - through interactions or through sheeping the general consensus.

Nyegh. After looking at 90, it is a hot mess. I think I fucked up along the lines. (won't lie, I'm not the greatest with percentages so I had an easier time with cy's 4 posts). I was honestly trying to go for an objective analysis, but I guess I fell into the confirmation bias anyways.

Although I feel I townread too early, as he hardly posts. Then again, still a town lean.

I feel Sesq and Luka are def town. As for the other reads? I haven't got my thoughts organized yet. Maybe Impede too? He seems to be getting townier and townier.

Don't try to play mafia like a game of sudoku. I know it feels better to base things off of objectivity but this is a subjective game - put your reads out there, focus on your personal opinions and try to analyze the opinions of others.

I find it very strange how you kept rather silent until this case formed on you, and you started to post again. It makes little to no since.

Does it really not make sense? Think about it.

Oh hell RVS is over. Need to remove this.
UNVOTE:

It always seems bad to me when people do this, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell or not.

@Laser:

why do I look scummy?

In this type of game, I feel it is very likely there is going to be a lot of SvS infighting early on. You and Lucky's interaction has this vibe to me... you start with a discussion about Comm's intentions, but very quickly Comm is sidelined out of the discussion without any really input from him and you proceed to tunnel each other for the next six pages. The fact that Comm actually commented on your discussion at #100 and neither of you either asked him a question or wanted him to weigh in seems to suggest that neither of you are really interested in Comm at all. This is particularly unsettling since as of #172 don't actually think Lucky is scum, in which case it's not clear to me why you've spent so much energy on this. I'm leaning SvS on this whole interaction.

Good analysis, with the caveat that I think at some point Luca and Lucky's interaction stopped being about Comm and start being about theory or the validity of reads.

MOD NOTES

UC Voyager replaces lucca261. Please thank and welcome UC Voyager!.

*sigh*

?

Don't worry about it.

So many of their posts seem the same as Luca, who I see as the most town -- prodding without seeming defensive. I respect the style and I see town motivation.

[cytheflyguy]

wow athena, that's a lot of nothing you've said.

That's certainly one way to interpret it. An incorrect interpretation, mind you, but an interpretation nonetheless.

jesus fucking christ. nevermind we're lynching athena today.

VOTE: cultofathena

What's the reasoning behind this?

[cytheflyguy]

UC Voyager

122, 171, 191, 266 - A continuing theme of

'town should/shouldn't be doing this!'

. This is something UCV does when he is scum.

129 - Completely fake scumhunting. Looks contrived with one townread, one null read, one scum read, and no real reasoning for any of it.

141, 143,152, 155, 199 - Buddying me. As I explained before, he knows I know his meta well and that I tunnel on him once I catch on that he's scum, and he entered into this game with the plan of trying to appease me, no doubt about it.

146, 147, 174 - Fence-sitting. This is something I know he does as scum.

159 Asking if Impede's play is lurkscum; why can't he judge this for himself?

189 - non-committal and unexplained reads list where he gives scum leans but says he has no solid scum reads, but is apparently 'still hunting'.

222 - Responds to my vote on him for buddying with a further attempt at buddying, saying it's good I don't always consider those who side with me as being of the same alignment. He's also using emotion here to try and get me to change my mind.

Other than that, I have played with him many times now and can read this guy like a book. UCV is today's lynch - let's make it happen.

Unless anyone can give any good reason why we

shouldn't

lynch UCV today?

Statistics are irrelevant - just because you draw scum one game doesn't mean you're less likely to in the next.

I made a lot of points not involving meta - you haven't addressed them.

I kept an open mind and tried to consider you might be Town, but I just strongly believe you are scum this game. Am I supposed to suppress that feeling in case you get annoyed?

No. Being scumread is part of the game. Deal with it.

Hmm...tbf you only referenced 4 posts that had nothing to do with metaing. These were all the points that had only one post to back up the claim.

The first one made me raise an eyebrow was "no real reasoning for any of it". I'm sorry, but...

OK, so P.O.E time:

Town= Moz, Sesq, Lucca, Lucky, Zaraki, Comm

So scum in: archer, impede, cyber, cult, voyager, laser guy

thats four scum in 6 , good odds!

out of those 6, gun to head i would say scum team is: archer, impede, cult and voyager

Finally caught up. Here's where I'm at as far as reads. Not going to post a ton of rationale since I need to get back to work (on lunch right now), but most of it is in my previous posts from the past hour. Feel free to question anything in particular that doesn't jive and I'll explain.

Town

to

Null

to

Scum

:

Sesq, Moz

UCV*, Luca, Cy

----slight

Laser*, Comm

----leaning town

CoA*, Arch('s slot)*

----leaning scum

Lucky, Zaraki

*indicates a need for more content. Don't feel great about these reads.

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Obviously, I don't have the same meta experience as you do (well, none of which I'm allowed to speak of), but you are the only one who has had experience with him out of all of us, as far as I know. I cannot truely take you at your word regarding the meta. Your three posts that I have not addressed do hold some water, but I interpreted them differently. I saw it as more unsure and testing waters more than anything else. I am slightly convinced, but I don't want him lynched just yet. With how fast votes are going for him, for my best interest in using time wisely, I will abstain for now.

[cytheflyguy]

Holy fucking shit.

I'm too tired to actually respond to what happened.

But holy shit.

[cytheflyguy]

It has to be said that Cy looks pretty bad here. The only time he really talked about UCV was in this defence of him here:

Spoiler:

UC Voyager

122, 171, 191, 266 - A continuing theme of

'town should/shouldn't be doing this!'

. This is something UCV does when he is scum.

129 - Completely fake scumhunting. Looks contrived with one townread, one null read, one scum read, and no real reasoning for any of it.

141, 143,152, 155, 199 - Buddying me. As I explained before, he knows I know his meta well and that I tunnel on him once I catch on that he's scum, and he entered into this game with the plan of trying to appease me, no doubt about it.

146, 147, 174 - Fence-sitting. This is something I know he does as scum.

159 Asking if Impede's play is lurkscum; why can't he judge this for himself?

189 - non-committal and unexplained reads list where he gives scum leans but says he has no solid scum reads, but is apparently 'still hunting'.

222 - Responds to my vote on him for buddying with a further attempt at buddying, saying it's good I don't always consider those who side with me as being of the same alignment. He's also using emotion here to try and get me to change my mind.

Other than that, I have played with him many times now and can read this guy like a book. UCV is today's lynch - let's make it happen.

Unless anyone can give any good reason why we

shouldn't

lynch UCV today?

Statistics are irrelevant - just because you draw scum one game doesn't mean you're less likely to in the next.

I made a lot of points not involving meta - you haven't addressed them.

I kept an open mind and tried to consider you might be Town, but I just strongly believe you are scum this game. Am I supposed to suppress that feeling in case you get annoyed?

No. Being scumread is part of the game. Deal with it.

Hmm...tbf you only referenced 4 posts that had nothing to do with metaing. These were all the points that had only one post to back up the claim.

The first one made me raise an eyebrow was "no real reasoning for any of it". I'm sorry, but...

OK, so P.O.E time:

Town= Moz, Sesq, Lucca, Lucky, Zaraki, Comm

So scum in: archer, impede, cyber, cult, voyager, laser guy

thats four scum in 6 , good odds!

out of those 6, gun to head i would say scum team is: archer, impede, cult and voyager

Finally caught up. Here's where I'm at as far as reads. Not going to post a ton of rationale since I need to get back to work (on lunch right now), but most of it is in my previous posts from the past hour. Feel free to question anything in particular that doesn't jive and I'll explain.

Town

to

Null

to

Scum

:

Sesq, Moz

UCV*, Luca, Cy

----slight

Laser*, Comm

----leaning town

CoA*, Arch('s slot)*

----leaning scum

Lucky, Zaraki

*indicates a need for more content. Don't feel great about these reads.

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Obviously, I don't have the same meta experience as you do (well, none of which I'm allowed to speak of), but you are the only one who has had experience with him out of all of us, as far as I know. I cannot truely take you at your word regarding the meta. Your three posts that I have not addressed do hold some water, but I interpreted them differently. I saw it as more unsure and testing waters more than anything else. I am slightly convinced, but I don't want him lynched just yet. With how fast votes are going for him, for my best interest in using time wisely, I will abstain for now.

And it came at a very telling time - just after a few had joined me in voting UCV (he was L-3 at the time), so as scum he would have a motive here in trying to stem the flow.

The fact he has also generally been lurking throughout but suddenly popped up to make that defence makes it stand out all the more.

FOS cytheflyguy

It's not my fault your faulty logic turned out to be correct. Your entire logic revolved around knowin UVC's meta, which isn't a good arguing point to convince other people. You only had four points that didn't include meta. Majority of that was tunneling. I didn't think it was right but didn't have the support for it.

And what do you mean it happened at a "telling time", I responded as fast as I could when I got off from school. You posted around 1 am my time. That's NAI. Just because you were right once doesn't mean you're right again.

[cytheflyguy]

I realize I'm not the best when it comes to arguments, so I wouldn't try to wk scum pals willy-nilly? Regardless of alignment, I'd want to only defend people who I think deserve to be saved.

Also

Holy fucking shit.

I'm too tired to actually respond to what happened.

But holy shit.

This is manufactured.

Oh my god, I actually didn't expect UVC to flip scum. Chill.

P-Edit: Oh my god

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Sesq already remarked this in his own way, but most of the readslists you posted actually did have rationale associated with them, but they were in that person's ISO. It's not uncommon for someone to form opinions on events/posts as they transpire and then summarize them in a readslist at some point. I can't see how you'd be so detached from this game to actually hold this opinion...

This also aged poorly, as now that we know UCV is scum, it comes off as Alignment-Informed. "I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but

these should be addressed as well down the line

if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not." I could be wrong, but that bolded portion almost says "once we lynch UCV and he flips scum, we should also scrutinize these people".

On the other hand, it's kind of obvscum to come to the defense of a partner on D1, but Occam's Razor and all....
VOTE: cytheflyguy

I'm sorry but this is such a bad argument. Are you're saying I made a good point at a time but it's too good because it seems like I knew UVC's role? I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit. I was pointing out his hypocrisy as well. We could only judge UVC off of what we knew unless we did the meta ourselves. Luca never once gave quotes from other games with UVC. UVC did the same thing other people did with the four fucking posts Luca called UVC out on. But however they, for some unknown reason, did not appear on Luca's radar as hard. He was truly blinded by his tunnel. He was also correct. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

That being said, I had no real reasonings as to why UVC was town, so I never truly defended him, I only defended how stupid a read was that happened to be correct. If we go by his logic we should look at those slots as well.

[cytheflyguy]

@Cy:

As I said previously, all you did was use half of one point to dismiss my entire case.

How is the timing NAI? UCV was being voted by multiple players and obviously whoever his buddies are will have been feeling the heat, so it's very likely someone would step in here to try and slow the wagon down.

It's all the more suspicious given how inactive you've been generally this game, while at times intentionally lurking, for you to suddenly pop up to hard-defend a null read of yours who turned out to be scum.

It was NAI because I would have responded whenever I got out of class. I get out at 12:45 and I get to my dorm around 1. I responded like 10 minutes later. As soon as I saw it I didn't agree with it. Regardless of alignment, I would have said the exact same thing.

The second parts a more fair point, but I'm better at detecting illogical arguments then piecing together people's lies, which is something I'm improving on. My two biggest posts have been just about that.

Also, you're missing the piont when I talked about how unreliable your meta is? Like that was a huge part of my argument too that you keep on forgetting to address?

[cytheflyguy]

I'm sorry but this is such a bad argument. Are you're saying I made a good point at a time but it's too good because it seems like I knew UVC's role?

Definitely not saying you made a good point, so you can rest easy there.

Thanks!

[cytheflyguy]

I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit. I was pointing out his hypocrisy as well. We could only judge UVC off of what we knew unless we did the meta ourselves. Luca never once gave quotes from other games with UVC. UVC did the same thing other people did with the four fucking posts Luca called UVC out on. But however they, for some unknown reason, did not appear on Luca's radar as hard. He was truly blinded by his tunnel. He was also correct. These are not mutually exclusive terms.

Who cares? He was right, and IMO he was right for the right reasons. Do you still question his rationale? You must see that it wasn't purely meta-based. There were a couple conclusions that were easier to come to based on meta (i.e: that it wasn't JUST UCV's personality that made him fence-sit and buddy).

Why are you getting so worked up? We're just following logical conclusions. No need to get all defensive. There's not even a wagon on you yet, and if there was, it would be reckless to pursue it overly quickly when we still have the entire day left. You have plenty of time to try to act town before L-1.

Oh yeah sorry I'm not actually angry/upset/etc. I am worked up. I don't see any of this as logical. I'm not playing the game for my sake, but for the sake of the town, yeah sure whatever I get lynched, but I don't like how it all is dependent on a read that's 3/4th meta without anything being backed up. If I or anyone acts scummy and they're correctly called out, then it's deserved. This is not correctly called out doe.

Also I stopped caring about acting town. I have a tendency of being scum read over town read (surprisingly with no previous lynches or being night killed), so my goal is to make sure the game isn't bullshit and not worrying about what is and isn't town like.

Also, I fully believe that his line of logic wasn't the best. Yeah, he came up with some good reasons, but there were reasons that applied to everyone.

I already talked about one, so I won't get into detail about that.

1 & 2) (AKA 129 189) It's day 1 and UVC just transferred in. Like I wouldn't expect him to come up with too many reads off the top of his head. I usually don't, so why would I expect him to do so when he just came in a couple of days prior. He came up with some shitty reads that are unexplained but so do a lot of people and that's seen as towny to other people when I call it out (These usually come from "big name" players, however, so people make the mistake of trusting them/dealing with the fact that they won't change) but regardless, I'm not sure how this example is scummy over others.

3) (AKA 159) I've seen this as a slight push to getting people's mind on the idea of it. To get people talking. People tend to respond more to questions than statements.

4) 444 UVC already expanded on this before he died. Like, yeah he's scum, but his reasoning isn't wrong imo.

If you really wanted to, you could have pressed anyone else, but it's the person you have the most experience meta-ing, which I feel clouds your judgment. So many other people, especially those you mentioned today, acted way scummier, but you chose someone who didn't draw too much attention to themselves because you knew their meta game. To me, it looked like you did a lot of reaching to prove why he was worse than other lynches.

[cytheflyguy]

I don't know moz... Impede seeming good in his last few posts. I really liked what Luca is saying about Cult. After getting a day 1 scum lynch on UCV, I'm willing to just sit in his pocket for another wagon.

Cy's effort ramping up is pinging me. Though I can tend to do the same as town. So maybe NAI. He is definitely acting like there is more pressure on him then is warranted for his responses.

Again, I don't care about pressure on me. If I'm town then it doesn't matter because I still win if town does. I care that we will follow faulty ass logic

[cytheflyguy]

It has to be said that Cy looks pretty bad here. The only time he really talked about UCV was in this defence of him here:

Spoiler:

UC Voyager

122, 171, 191, 266 - A continuing theme of

'town should/shouldn't be doing this!'

. This is something UCV does when he is scum.

129 - Completely fake scumhunting. Looks contrived with one townread, one null read, one scum read, and no real reasoning for any of it.

141, 143,152, 155, 199 - Buddying me. As I explained before, he knows I know his meta well and that I tunnel on him once I catch on that he's scum, and he entered into this game with the plan of trying to appease me, no doubt about it.

146, 147, 174 - Fence-sitting. This is something I know he does as scum.

159 Asking if Impede's play is lurkscum; why can't he judge this for himself?

189 - non-committal and unexplained reads list where he gives scum leans but says he has no solid scum reads, but is apparently 'still hunting'.

222 - Responds to my vote on him for buddying with a further attempt at buddying, saying it's good I don't always consider those who side with me as being of the same alignment. He's also using emotion here to try and get me to change my mind.

Other than that, I have played with him many times now and can read this guy like a book. UCV is today's lynch - let's make it happen.

Unless anyone can give any good reason why we

shouldn't

lynch UCV today?

Statistics are irrelevant - just because you draw scum one game doesn't mean you're less likely to in the next.

I made a lot of points not involving meta - you haven't addressed them.

I kept an open mind and tried to consider you might be Town, but I just strongly believe you are scum this game. Am I supposed to suppress that feeling in case you get annoyed?

No. Being scumread is part of the game. Deal with it.

Hmm...tbf you only referenced 4 posts that had nothing to do with metaing. These were all the points that had only one post to back up the claim.

The first one made me raise an eyebrow was "no real reasoning for any of it". I'm sorry, but...

OK, so P.O.E time:

Town= Moz, Sesq, Lucca, Lucky, Zaraki, Comm

So scum in: archer, impede, cyber, cult, voyager, laser guy

thats four scum in 6 , good odds!

out of those 6, gun to head i would say scum team is: archer, impede, cult and voyager

Finally caught up. Here's where I'm at as far as reads. Not going to post a ton of rationale since I need to get back to work (on lunch right now), but most of it is in my previous posts from the past hour. Feel free to question anything in particular that doesn't jive and I'll explain.

Town

to

Null

to

Scum

:

Sesq, Moz

UCV*, Luca, Cy

----slight

Laser*, Comm

----leaning town

CoA*, Arch('s slot)*

----leaning scum

Lucky, Zaraki

*indicates a need for more content. Don't feel great about these reads.

{Luca, Cult, Sesq}
{cy, UC}
{Zaraki, Impede, Laser}
{Lucky, moza, Zulfy}

Getting a better feel of people now and moza and Lucky are definitely on the bottom right now. Luca, Cult and Sesq are off the table for today (though Sesq is definitely being looked at more in future days), Cy and UC are more town leans and the rest are more meh. Zulfy is more of an educated gut feel.

People should vote Lucky.

Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.

Fair

I'll be honest, I'm not too confident in my reads as of late so I wanted to wait things out for a bit.

However, I might as well post some reads just to be relevant again.

Town

Luca Blight
Impede
Laserguy
CultofAthena-Town/Null

Null

UC
Zulfy
Sesq

Scum

Lucky2u-Honestly putting him here
CommKnight
mozamis

I feel like a sheep since this is popular consensus. I work better when there's something I want to contradict.

Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.

Obviously, I don't have the same meta experience as you do (well, none of which I'm allowed to speak of), but you are the only one who has had experience with him out of all of us, as far as I know. I cannot truely take you at your word regarding the meta. Your three posts that I have not addressed do hold some water, but I interpreted them differently. I saw it as more unsure and testing waters more than anything else. I am slightly convinced, but I don't want him lynched just yet. With how fast votes are going for him, for my best interest in using time wisely, I will abstain for now.

And it came at a very telling time - just after a few had joined me in voting UCV (he was L-3 at the time), so as scum he would have a motive here in trying to stem the flow.

The fact he has also generally been lurking throughout but suddenly popped up to make that defence makes it stand out all the more.

FOS cytheflyguy

It's not my fault your faulty logic turned out to be correct. Your entire logic revolved around knowin UVC's meta, which isn't a good arguing point to convince other people. You only had four points that didn't include meta. Majority of that was tunneling. I didn't think it was right but didn't have the support for it.

And what do you mean it happened at a "telling time", I responded as fast as I could when I got off from school. You posted around 1 am my time. That's NAI. Just because you were right once doesn't mean you're right again.

"b-b-b-b-b but meta bad!"

think once before you post please. if you're town.

VOTE: cytheflyguy

because i dislike reading your posts. they annoy me. also you're pretty scummy.

regarding impede, i cant tell if he's dickriding me/luca after day one, he's a really good dickrider of me/luca, or if he really is in his own way. we'll have to see.

Mmhmm. Your anger at my posting is clouding your judgment, which is a shame. I'm not saying that meta in itself is bad, I'm saying that his execution of it was poor. There was nothing to take him on other than his word.

[cytheflyguy]

this is a perfect example.

you make an assumption, and then rattle off pompuous bitchery about it

and the weaseling isnt helping too much either

Look at the pot calling the kettle black doe? I'm not sure what I'm missing, but this entire game is nothing but assumptions. You assume you're right, as do I.

I'm not trying to weasel, but I apologize if it comes across that way.

[cytheflyguy]

I'm not saying that meta in itself is bad, I'm saying that his execution of it was poor. There was nothing to take him on other than his word.

Why are you still arguing this? You're such a broken record tbh. You are arguing a moot point. We lynched scum BECAUSE Luca successfully scumread UCV. Are you saying it was purely dumb luck?

Let me break it down...
• We lynched UCV because of excessive buddying/fence-sitting as well as fake scumhunting/sheeping. <---- This is an absolutely solid scum case on someone D1.
• UCV mounted a half-decent defense of his behavior, which may have caused the wagon to waiver a bit. However, Luca used meta to completely defuse these arguments.
• Why would we take Luca at his word? Who's to say he's not just scum going for an easy ML? <--- First, this would be dumb af because he would be a prime lynch candidate D2. Second, he was very widely townread at this point. What is the point in townreading someone if you can't trust what they say?

All that being said... What's your read on Luca now? Are you content with him more or less leading the charge on scumhunting today and likely D3 as well? Or are you still hung up on your "misgivings" about his (highly effective) use of meta?

You know where I stand. I'll just stop replying to it now.

[cytheflyguy]

VOTE: zulfy

Normally I would say "we should have done this day 1" but since we caught scum, I'll let you guys off!
but really, this guy has doen LITERALLY no scum hunting all game, less than when town lurk.
i've seen scum lurk like this many times.

obv, there is a chance of him being town and lurking, but if so, we have 1 mislynch available, yeah??
but, as i say this is mainly a genuine "this guy is scum" lynch, with a twenty per cent PL Lurker lynch as well.

Cult is still my other top pick for scum.
Who the last scum is I'm less clear now.

hang on, zulfy replace archwing, right?
then we should def. lynch him.

Hm, so I can see this being a good vote, but Archwing replaced out after 5 posts and his slot is apparently too busy to play the game he signed up for, so I'm not sure if this is a correlation of unfortunate events, or repetitive scummy behavior.

[cytheflyguy]

Also I retract my statement on Luca's meta reads for the most part. My brain was hella fried yesterday by stress and I didn't realize it until I woke up this morning.

[cytheflyguy]

At the moment? Zulfy seems a bit too quiet. If they can afford to prod dodge, they can afford 1 or 2 posts.

This.

VOTE: Zulfy

[cytheflyguy]

Fellas! fellas I'm here. I've been gone but now here I am, see.

Well, you're here.

UNVOTE:

[cytheflyguy]

This is the most obvious scum wagon I've ever seen. We are lynching the guy that has posted basically nothing? I get policy lynches and all but we can't find a single candidate better then this? Everyone else on Luca's lynch pool is so much better and more of a quality lynch then the guy that gets us nothing.

i hear what you are saying. why dont we agree to have zulfy as the last minute "compromise" lynch if all else fails.
How do you feel about Cult or Impede?
Cults last few posts once again post very littel in content really, not any reads, just arguing and point scoring.

Ehhh this worries me. I voted to push him. He shouldn't be a compromise while we try and get a feel for his posting and play. If he comes out as more scummy, then yeah, we should use him as a BWCS, but it shouldn't be him right off the bat.

[cytheflyguy]

This goes well with my philosophy that town should make scum hunting their priority, not avoiding their own lynch.

I am scum hunting. Any townie ought to look through the game and see this for themselves rather than just accepting what other people say about my play.

Also, here's a nice little bit of irony that I found looking back through the game:

classic "legalistic, rhetoric" scum
no town motivation for this post, just leaves it hanging "oh, look how Moz contradicted himself". Shade throwing.
this guy is scum.

VOTE: cultofathena

No town motivation? I'm pointing out an inconsistency - like I've said, town act differently because their reads may have changed. Scum act differently because it's convenient to them. You can talk about the validity of the point that I made, but to imply that there's no town motivation is either ignorant or disingenuous. Either way, it's false.

I'm sorry but I don't get how CoA is scum. I'll read back some more but I don't really buy it...

Also,

I don't like anyone on this new list? That being said, if I had to vote for someone out of there, then it would be Zaraki, but I'd have to read back again to see if I missed anything.

[cytheflyguy]

I'm sorry I'm just not able to get into this game.

I may have to replace out if I can't get into it by tomorrow.

[cytheflyguy]

Semi prod dodge for now, but from the looks of it, it seems Luca's lynch pool was wrong this time. I need to see what was the cause of it before making any accusations.

Also classes are over (whoop!) and I found my motivation for this game.

[cytheflyguy]

Zulfy and cy both three days without posting again. Surely these two should be force-replaced by now?

I'm struggling to motivate myself to play while there are such lurkers/absentees in the game.

I take full responsibility for forgetting to go into V/LA again. Reading back now.

[cytheflyguy]

Eh, thinking about it... With Luca being a highly unlikely scum to the point of conf town, and us getting scum day 1 we can just throw darts at the board and probably still get... (Wait for it)... Lucky... ... enough times to win.

Okay, so I don't know if this should count as scum oriented, but I don't like this and I will see it as such. I understand playing with BWCS, but to "just throw darts at the board" doesn't seem to actually be hunting for scum. I'll look into your ISO to see if I should change my mind, but for now:

VOTE: Lucky

@Moz:

Do you think Zaraki would be so quick to hammer town?

On the other hand - He posted this:

I honestly find Laser scummy, not hammering this post to see if any last arguments.

My next post I will hammer if nothing new.

Then it looks like he got too excited and wanted to get his hammer in (posted 20 mins later... hardly a ton of time for "any last arguments"):

Hammer.

Vote: LaserGuy

I find the speed of the vote interesting as well. However, with how the speed of the game is going, I'm not surprised, nor do I see this as AI.

Semi prod dodge for now, but from the looks of it,

it seems Luca's lynch pool was wrong this time.

I need to see what was the cause of it before making any accusations.

Also classes are over (whoop!) and I found my motivation for this game.

This is an ignorant comment.

Why would LaserGuy being town mean the whole lynch pool was wrong? You're also ignoring the fact that a) LaserGuy was a perfectly legitimate target as he admitted himself, and b) I was townreading Laser by the end of the day and wanted to switch the lynch away from him, which none of the other active posters were interested in doing.

You're looking into the wrong part of what I said. I did not say that your whole lynch pool was wrong. I said that A) "I need to see what was the cause of it before making any accusations." and B) "this time". I won't make any excuses for my absence, but I will say that I had no knowledge of what had happened leading up to his lynch. All I knew was that he was both dead and in your lynch pool.

[cytheflyguy]

Looking into Lucky's ISO I found something that should be of interest. Btw this starts off as an ISO of Lucy but turns into something else.

I like posts 74 and 77. Both are good at defending a point and sticking to it. Although 78 does seem like comfbias, so does Luca's posts about RVS, so that kinda nulls each other out. Following the rest of the day 1 debate between Lucky and Luca, I think Lucky was in the right. Luca kinda comes across as backtracking with saying in 71 "What's to say he wasn't looking for reactions, though?" and defended that to make it feel like a rhetorical question. He then misread what Lucky was saying in 75, saying "You're saying he's scummy for apparently looking for reactions, when that is something that is commonly done in and around RVS." when Lucky clearly stated in post 63 "claiming to be looking for reactions is scum garbage". There is a clear misinterpretation of logic here. I mean, he tried to backtrack in in 82 where he said, "I am reading; that was what I meant by the word 'apparently'." When someone uses the word "apparently" in the same way Luca did, they mean it as a summary of what the other person is saying.

It only gets weirder from here: Luca also asks in 82 to "You have no evidence Comm wasn't really looking for reactions; it's pure conjecture.". Lucky then states how too early in the game it is for "evidence" in 87. Luca then responds with "Something to show his intentions are not as he claimed them to be." as a way to show evidence in 88. Lucky says, "Give me an actual example of this that could happen on Day 1." The punchline to all of this is, "You're asking for examples of valid reasoning? Jesus. I'll give you an example of how ridiculous your position is: Lucky and Comm are both scum - Lucky is bussing his partner. I have absolutely nothing to back this up with but it's D1 so f*ck it, I can say whatever the hell I want." (92) How is this reaction townlike? This goes on for the next page.

This is how I summarize what happened (as an extended tl;dr,

Disclaimer: Paraphrasing how I interpret what was said

): Lucky made an accusation towards Comm after Comm's interaction with me. Luca then counters with asking what if he was actually trying to fish for a reaction. Lucky then said "Well you can say "What if for a lot of things, that doesn't mean it's true". Luca then misinterpreted what Lucky said, asking "How is he scummy for apparently looking for a reaction". Lucky then told him that he wasn't reading properly and then re-explained what he said, which was consistent with what he's been saying, which was "I think it's bullshit that he said he was fishing for a reaction." Luca then says that Lucky "has no substance and lacks evidence", to which Lucky responds with "What evidence are you looking for?". Luca says, "Something to show his intentions are not as he claimed them to be." [Direct quote]. Lucky was like, "But give me an example of the evidence you're talking about." Luca then goes waaaay into defense mode, ignores Lucky's question, which he accused Lucky of doing the same thing earlier. Luca kept on backtracking and going into the defense. He went from "Show me evidence" to being unable to give a valid reasoning. Lucky stood his ground and kept a consistant argument.

I wasn't the only person who saw this. Impede sees it too in 137. Yeah he calls them AtE when they're not, but he's almost on the nose when he says, "All of his retorts are attacks", where most of them are.

I firmly believe that Luca got lucky on two accounts. He would be less town read if it wasn't for UCV. When he replaced into the game, Luca was ready to attack because he got meta. I'll admit, as I did earlier, that it was more legit then I originally gave him credit for, but after that, he was on the same grounding as us. That leaves us to the second way in which he got lucky: activity count. This is by far the least active game I've ever played in. I'm part of the problem as well. Luca is the most active person in the game. Because of this, he has more footing to appear more town then everyone else. Yeah, he looked hella town when LaserGuy was about to be lynched when he considered more options, but he knew it'd be next to impossible for the votes to be changed in such an inactive game. He said so himself in 756.

The only thing that truely makes him look town is how he got the UVC lynch and how he's trying to control the votes.

Yeah, I'm litterally making a case against the strongest townread that most people have, but this has always rubbed me the wrong way and I plan on defending it unless enough evidence proves that I'm wrong.

VOTE: Luca Blight

I'll address this too

@Impede

, if it was not for what happened to UVC, would you still regard Luca as such a high townread?

In fact, I'll open that to anyone. If it wasn't for what happened to UVC , would you still think of him as "comftown"?

[cytheflyguy]

that's a leading question if ever I saw one...

I will respond to that shit later when I have time, but it feels like scum desperation to me.

Of course it is. I'm keeping an open mind here don't get me wrong. I'm not even in danger here. There's no reason for me to be desperate.

[cytheflyguy]

Unless you and Lucky are partners, or you're just scum who sees the walls closing in with less and less lynchable targets being available so you want to create some uncertainty.

Fair. I can't disprove either of those without showing my role PM. That being said, I wanted to look more into Lucky's ISO, but I couldn't start without looking at the debate that the two of you had. Your arguments seemed very flawed. I don't like how you do that and try to become the leader of this game.

[cytheflyguy]

Unless you and Lucky are partners, or you're just scum who sees the walls closing in with less and less lynchable targets being available so you want to create some uncertainty.

Fair. I can't disprove either of those without showing my role PM. That being said, I wanted to look more into Lucky's ISO, but I couldn't start without looking at the debate that the two of you had. Your arguments seemed very flawed. I don't like how you do that and try to become the leader of this game.

My argument was basically

'Comm claimed to do something that most people do during RVS (fish for reactions). Please produce something to show that he was lying about doing this'.

Lucky could not do so, therefore it was his argument that was flawed, not mine. Even if my argument

was

flawed, how would it make me scum? Can Town not have imperfect arguments?

Surely from my position as 'almost conftown' I should naturally become the leader of the Town? That's kind of how it works, or at least how it should. Again, why does this make me scum? Why would I invite such limelight on myself if I had something to hide?

I'll address this and then try to address your post before after my last exam tomorrow afternoon, (it's currently 6 am and I'm running off of insomnia).

First off, I have given credit when I realized I was wrong. The idea of someone openly trying to control the lynch pool seems counterintuitive, because just because you're almost conftown doesn't mean you're always right. And especially in a game where all you have is your words, I don't trust that as it feels like it is a sure fire way for scum to take over the game. Yes, you have been questioned before, but there are some things that I want to fully address before I can trust you. But still, even if I do trust you, it doesn't mean that I can always trust your judgment. From the way I read the situation, it feels like you couldn't produce anything for Comm fishing for reactions either. I don't think going off of intuition is a bad thing early in the game, and I still feel you made it too big of a deal.

Also, you contradicted yourself. You said, "Can Town not have imperfect arguments?", followed by "Surely from my position as 'almost conftown' I should naturally become the leader of the Town? That's kind of how it works, or at least how it should." Yeah, leaders can be imperfect, but there shouldn't be leaders in this game because if a lynch happens and you control it, scum can make some bs logic to lynch a town in your lynch pool, or sheep one, and the responcibility falls on you. It's no longer "Person X caused this lynch, so looking throught their ISO, I don't feel they're as town as I thought.", but rather, "Well the lynch was caused by the comftown, so there's no one I can blame for causing the lynch." And you only can go off of why people went for the limited pool, which is easier to bullshit vs a larger pool. You admit you can be flawed but still hold an iron grip as what is and is not acceptable as a lynch. These two statements don't feel towny to me, as it limits options on how to catch scum imo. especially in a game that the only thing to catch scum with are words. Am I making sense?

Also, let me be clear before I continue this tomorrow: You're not a huge scumread for me, which is why I stated that I'm keeping an open mind. I just don't trust the position of power you have given yourself and don't see town motivation from it. I still want to push this for a bit so I can understand your judgment more, but I don't want it to be said that I'm tunnelreading you.

Anyway, Imma study some more, so I should be back in 18-24 hours.

[cytheflyguy]

Also, regarding your last part, I feel it could be hiding in plain sight. It's a good strategy if done right.

I'm not ignoring anything else you said in that post on purpose btw.

[cytheflyguy]

Well shit lol. I kinda pitty scum, that was....sad.

I don't like that he used my terribad "AtE" post as justification for his point, especially since I full-on retracted it after the fact.

This is fair. It was in a spoiler that I skimmed through. I still don't feel comfortable townreading Luca, but that could be paranoia with the power he obtained. To be fair, with the constant inactivity in the game, I was giving him too much credit for the power he had. For that reason, and the holes in my logic that I noticed when I was trying to type up a response, I won't push him.

It looks like today seems to be between Lucky and Sesq. I can clearly see what people are saying about Sesq, and I know why I have FoS on him (748), but what was the main argument against Lucky again?

[cytheflyguy]

It looks like today seems to be between Lucky and Sesq. I can clearly see what people are saying about Sesq, and I know why I have FoS on him (748), but what was the main argument against Lucky again?

What are your opinions? I mean, it's anothe r infor without analysis post from you.
Damn it htought i had th e scum team but Cy pushes his way back in.

It's both a blessing and a curse. You do seem to be cherry-picking tho. I have made several analysis posts (mainly against Luca) in this game.

Anywho, I don't know what to make of the situation, tbh. I've stated my opinion on Lucky before, and I don't want to vote Sesq as of now because it feels like it's kinda too ballsey to act like that and be scum. If I had to vote for either right now, it'd be Lucky, but he's at L-2 rn so I'd rather not.

There's nothing I can say atm that wouldn't make me sound like a broken record or a parrot. If I had to choose a scum team of 2 then it'd be Lucky and Zaraki, doe.

[cytheflyguy]

To state what feels wrong about Zaraki exactly, as others have said, 90, tho after being called out, does call it back in 198. He seemed a little bouncy day 1, too. 881 feels kinda weird as he says Moz flip flops but he "still" scumreads him. Idk that seems kinda weirdish to me. Nothing strong doe.

Also, looking back to day 3, I think Sesq townslipped? Like I think scum would be more observant in hammering their own team. I'm more willing to lynch Lucky.

[cytheflyguy]

Oh yeah

@Mod: I'm going to be V/LA until the 17th

[cytheflyguy]

I say we lynch Sesq and cy, and if the game still isn't over then we pause and reflect.

Honestly, I'm fine with this. With the amount of scum taken out, we have enough chances to take out as many liabilities as possibles, including myself. As I said before, as long as town wins, I win, so I'm fine with being lynched.

I'll vote for Sesq because she's the only one with votes.

VOTE: Sesq

I'm a little concerned that speedlynching benefits scum. Want to drag this out a bit. UNVOTE:

Scum has lost at this point. End justifies the mean.

[cytheflyguy]

@Cy

– There's a good chance that you could be today's lynch. Last thoughts? Things we should keep in mind?

No, not really haha. At this point the game is kinda...finished. I think this will be my last nightless game. It kinda ends up going in a system that makes the game more of a bureaucracy then mafia itself.

Again tho, end justifies the mean. I'm fine with being lynched because this is already a done deal.

[cytheflyguy]

We MUST hear from Cy before we lynch.

Again, dude, when I flip town, it'll change nothing in the end. Arguing will just belabor our inevitable victory. If we still have not gotten scum by final 4 people, then we should stop doing this method, but until then, we need to get rid of all loose ends.

[cytheflyguy]

No, not really haha. At this point the game is kinda...finished. I think this will be my last nightless game. It kinda ends up going in a system that makes the game more of a bureaucracy then mafia itself.

Again tho, end justifies the mean. I'm fine with being lynched because this is already a done deal.

sounds like disheartened scum gving up.

You haven't played with me. I'm kinda opportunistic. My death will benefit the town. I've said this like 3 game days ago when I wasn't on the chopping block. This is a really effective process and shouldn't be wasted.

[cytheflyguy]

or we could get scum now and win? Dont understand the suicidal approach. I have seen town lose from here. THATS WHY I POSTED THAT GAME which obv no one looked at.
WHo do you think is scum anyway?

Okay, so my thing is if I die, we have 5 people left. If we can believe that there is 1 scum left, we'll have 2 more chances until lylo. There are no night kills. Because of this, we can try to find scum without the repercussions of losing obvious town. No matter if we catch scum today or 3 days from now, we still win regardless. If scum still isn't caught by around the 4 people left mark, then we should take as much time as possible, but by then, the line of suspects will be limited and it will be easier to find who scum is.

[cytheflyguy]

Moz, do you accept that the next three lynches need to be cy, Athena and yourself?

This is bad. Three planned lynches put us in LyLo if scum still isn't caught. You should make a list of 2 and then play it by ear after that. If scum isn't in that pool, you could give them leverage by having wagons to hide behind until LyLo and not look suspicious.

[cytheflyguy]

Okay, yeah, this past interaction has done Luca no favors tbh. What is the town motivation for keeping townreads to yourself? I don't see you changing your read on me, so I can't say I agree with Moz on that one, but I am in agreement that a question like that should be answered in earnest.

p-edit:

So as Town I should share every thought that pops up?

And you went from cy being 'disheartened scum giving up' to suddenly being Town. No explanation given.

I don't know you're Town. I haven't trusted you for most of the game actually, but I've kept those thoughts to myself for the most part.

There's a difference between sharing everything that pops up and keeping thoughts to yourself for the most part.

[cytheflyguy]

There's a reason I keep certain thoughts to myself - I don't like to let people know I suspect them, or in some cases townread them, as it alters their behaviour.

This on it's own is fair. What I want to know is A) What do you think would have been altered from Moz knowing that you don't trust him? and B) What benefited the town in telling that now?

[cytheflyguy]

Can I just point out the irony of cy criticising me for not sharing every thought I have - he was the one who earlier admitted to lurking and following the thread to see how it progressed without posting anything.

Tbf, I wasn't simply just lurking, I was busy with finals too. This is 2 different things. You omitted something when I said nothing at all. You were saying other things but just not that. That being said, I'm not criticizing you simply because you haven't shared something, but because it seems to be against your standard in the game as one of, if not the most active person here. I just feel as if this is a kinda big thing to ignore? Is that unreasonable?

There's a reason I keep certain thoughts to myself - I don't like to let people know I suspect them, or in some cases townread them, as it alters their behaviour.

This on it's own is fair. What I want to know is A) What do you think would have been altered from Moz knowing that you don't trust him? and B) What benefited the town in telling that now?

a) How do I know what would have been altered? I just didn't trust him, even when he was pushing UCV, and wanted to observe his behaviour further.

b) I was responding to Moz saying I know he's Town.

A) Well I mean you should have an idea, right? Like you said that people can change their acts and shit, but you clearly stated reads on other people. What about Moz exactly makes you want to withhold information?

B) That's fair.

[cytheflyguy]

Moz is a bit too defensive of his lynch for my liking. He hasn't said a word recently til we wagoned him. Someone hammer please. I've heard enough. I'm convinced we need to lynch Moz and Cy. Although I'm liking Cy less and less. I might prefer Athena to him if Moz is green. But I have a feeling Moz will flip scum.

Wait, what? If you like me less and less, how am I better than CoA?

[cytheflyguy]

Like I get it's a condition if he's green, but why specifically me over her because of that?

[cytheflyguy]

Cy, I wanted to withhold that info because I suspected others far more, and letting Moz know I didn't trust him would give me no immediate benefit and could only negatively impact my ability to read him in future.

Hm. I can see that.

Regarding Scum!Luca or Scum!Comm, I just don't see ANY reluctance during the Zulfy and Lucky lynches. A double bus seems like it would not be agreed to in the Scum PT which means we could've expected maybe a bit more outrage from the two of them than we saw. I just can't see Scum premeditating that move. I think we win before a Comm, Luca, Impede MYLO. If not, I'm flipping a coin probably lol.

But alas, I think the game ends today with Moz. Although he's pocketing me which is a little odd...

Pedit: @Cy - Sorry I meant liking you as a lynch lol, not as a person.

Oh, kk. I knew you didn't mean as a person, but I thought you meant liking my posting less.

[cytheflyguy]

Moz is today's lynch.

Cy, feel free to hammer.

Okie dokie. I'll give him half an hour to post last minute stuff, since he's already online. (expired on 2017-12-16 02:18:19)

[cytheflyguy]

Oh well.

VOTE: Moz

[cytheflyguy]

But yes, I think Athena is next.

Time to slow down and consider things a bit now.

Associations with lucky have got me back to thinking cy is scum...

Please explain this thought process

[cytheflyguy]

We need to actually make Scum/Town cases before lynching today. No more quicklynching.

Also, sorry Moz. Botched that one. I should've townread the buddying, but you were too hard to sort from the start of this game. RIP

I think I can agree to that. Might as well get to know where everyone's head is. Idk where everyone went for like...20 something hours.

So we have 5 people. 2 more lynches until LyLo. I might as well be the first one to make a case on people.

It's funny. Almost everyone I'm reading back on has said at one point or another that they can't really get into this game. I'm glad it wasn't just me.

In a particular order:

Comm: Although I wasn't a fan of how he started the game, after looking at it again and from the perspective of Luca, I can see how that comes from the perspective of town. Although I did not notice it myself, the townslip he did on day two, and the way the mod responded to it, seemed like a legit town-slip. Scum would know if their own is dead, and mod would know that too. If we get to LyLo, I want him to be there and if he's scum then mod would be kinda biased towards scum imo. I will say he is the only person I hard townread.

Impede: The mistakes he made early in the game seem to be that of not fully reading. Idk if this is NAI or not, but I feel scum would be a little more...cautious reading posts? I find it kinda weird he thought CoA was towny in 734 but wanted to make a case against her in 752 which he then retracted with a wall of quotes without much analysis. I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum, but a lot of his missteps seem unintentional. I don't have a strong case for him either way but he seems null town to me.

CoA: Okay so I'll admit, I'm trying to piece what the case against her is because I just see a lot of people throwing shade but nothing actually happening. I swear to god she is like on everyone and their mother's scum list and yet so many other people have been lynched before her. I don't get why? Was every other person too big of a target instead of her? I kinda want to hold on getting a case on her until I can get a proper explanation because she looks slightly town to me?

Luca: I'll be honest. I don't trust his play style. He took his advantage of the UVC thing to call himself confirmed town. He does have a habit of scumreading people who do the same to him. He doesn't like people questioning his authority, as if taking charge equals being town. Yeah, he's good at making cases, yeah he helped find scum, but to be fair one was because he was inactive and the other after trial and error. Yeah, I pushed him twice now and I've had to back off because my specific arguments weren't the best. But at it's core -- his self-acquired power bothers me. Out of everyone, he's the one I'm the most worried about -- and I don't think my fear is unfounded. Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think this is a powerful educated guess that we shouldn't have at LyLo. If there is a better case, I won't mind going to that, but I want to push Luca for now and see how everything transpires. I want this to be said now: I don't want to mindlessly push him. I just don't see a better option right now. Maybe I'll move to CoA if I can understand what the argument is.

VOTE: Luca

[cytheflyguy]

1) I never called myself confirmed town.

2) Of course I'm skeptical of people challenging me - if I was scum and there was someone with a huge amount of towncred in the game, I would want to unsettle that situation.

3) I'm not sure what your point is about me helping find scum - it's like you're unwilling to give the credit due to me for my part in those lynches.

4) My 'taking charge' only really happened on D2, which I think was fair enough seeing as I almost single-handedly pushed through a scum lynch on D1. You are exaggerating this point; in case you hadn't noticed I haven't been trying to control everything since then.

5) Even if I was demanding as much control as you're making out, why would I use that control to lynch all of my scumbuddies? I don't see the logic behind that; surely I'd be better off going with the flow and hoping Town was lynched instead?

6) Nice little disclaimer at the end. It seems as though you're just fishing for reactions to see if a Luca lynch is possible, while giving yourself an easy jump-off point with Athena.

1) You damn near said it in 568, 455, and 958 (This one is interesting because it looks like you're saying it sarcastically but the implications are genuine). You've danced around it several times but the implications are clear.

2) That's such a flawed argument tho. If you really wanted to make sure that you held your position, wouldn't you embrace challenge to showcase how town you are?

3) I've given you credit before but it feels like you're giving yourself too much of it. Like, this is the first game I've played in with a "leader". Granted I've only played 6 games so far, so it may be more common then I think it is. Starting day 2, you set yourself up to be the leader of the town with no signs of stepping down. Maybe I'm more passionate about this because I finished government this semester but anyone who secures their power like that and fights off challenge the way you do is a tyrant (no offense, btw, you look like a good enough person but I'm talking about your play style). What we need, if anything, for a person of power to be a president. Yeah, don't let people walk all over you, but you shouldn't get so irrirated if people question you. If this game is about democracy, then so should the leader, right? Anyone who fights off challenge has a fear that they will be exposed as weak, so if they start the war on early attackers, then other people will be less motivated to challenge your power until people have enough. It's government 101. What you did or did not do honestly doesn't concern me, it's how you do it. Here, the end does not justify the means.

4) Yes you have tho. Even though you've long stopped doing that official voting pool thing, you've still tried to take control of what you could. I don't even have to look far for a previous example. On this same page in 1291 has you trying to take over power and control who's being lynched and not the why. Also did it in 1078. Yeah, you have posts why's before, but most of them are earlier in the game and I'm not saying that you don't at all. You've done it other times but I think you get the picture. All I'm saying is that you act first and then explain later, which I don't think is a good policy? That being said, a lot of top level players do that, but not to this extent. I'll be fair and tell you that you're not all about lynch pools, but you've done it to an extent that it doesn't feel natural to me.

5) This is a game with a huge element of bureaucracy -- i.e. a fixation of fixed rules. Eventually, after day 2 or 3, we will start having lynches to take out those who are the most suspicious but not exactly a scumread (ie Zulfy). There is nothing else to this game other than talking. Yeah, it will be harder to make it towards LyLo, but if you have the trust of the town -- by force if needed -- then you would be able to win. No one could just check you like a cop. Besides, you need that control somehow. If you keep on being incorrect, then other people would draw suspicion on you faster. Again, day 1 happened because you knew UVC's meta and day 3 happened because Zulfy was inactive and it was a policy lynch. And no, it would not be better to go with the flow as wouldn't that make you fense a lot of issues which would put suspicion on you, especially someone as through as you. I think you're a really good player and want to use that to your advantage, but I think there is an ulterior motive. Again, I'm not trying to tunnel you, but this is what I think you could be doing. I don't see any town motivation from trying to base lynches off of how confirmed town you are (which you did more earlier in the game) or being so flustered when people question your status. Then again, that was a reason why people were pushing Moz and he flipped green.

Yeah, it's possible for you to be town, but you have my FoS atm. No one else has triggered it more than you.

6) Yes? It's like I'm sticking to what I said earlier and trying to figure out who's the best lynch before we get to LyLo (Or is it MyLo?). *gasp* And I honestly want to see what you'd say because this is more of a FoS (I forgot what the term was so I was trying to explain it). As I also quoted and agreed with Impede, I'd like for us to get reads on everyone before we push another lynch.

[cytheflyguy]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cy

Hm?

[cytheflyguy]

Also, Cy is trying too hard

I am. I don't trust Luca and I'm trying to put my reasoning for it. I'm still good with my lynch today, however, to prove that I'm not just bullshitting.

[cytheflyguy]

Also for my idea final three, it would be Impede, CoA, and Comm, lynching Impede

[cytheflyguy]

Also for my idea final three, it would be Impede, CoA, and Comm, lynching Impede

I retract this.

1) I was referring to the fact people have been calling me such things as 'confirmed town' and 'almost confirmed town' this game.

2) Why should I want to showcase how Town I am? That would only be the case if I was scum, which I'm not. And it isn't a flawed argument - it's a natural inclination to suspect people who suspect you, especially when you are in a strong position in the Town in such a game as this.

3) The reason I played this way on D2 is because there were still three scum at large - easily enough to misguide any lynch. I knew I could only trust myself, and everyone ele could only trust me, therefore I should the the one to decide that particular lynch. In the end I didn't want a Laser lynch but couldn't persuade the others to jump off, so my influence ultimately failed anyway.

4) This is something everyone does to some degree. If it was me controlling the lynch then I would demand everyone vote one particular player, but instead I narrow down a list of three good lynch choices and suggest people vote one of them. This is no different from anyone else suggesting who they want lynched. I've actually been following the likes of Comm and Impede since Lucky's lynch.

5) It would be a silly strategy to lynch my three scumbuddies within the first four lynches of the game and expect to survive mislynch after mislynch without being suspected. Comm, who I townread, has already stated if the game goes to MYLO he will set out to lynch me. Everyone else in the game also seems pretty cool with my lynch at some point, so don't you see as scum I'd be basically setting myself up for the loss here?

6) My point stands. Lining up Athena's lynch after saying you don't understand why people are scumreading her seems like a calculated move.

I wanted to wait a bit to respond to this but point 4 and 5 makes sense. A lot of things you do bother me but I need to be able to separate them. I now null/town read you. I also don't like not having a scum read at this point and no one else pings me like you did. And yes I will stand by this? After you, she's my closest thing to a scum read at null-ish. I'm fine with eventually compromising with her. Like this is what we've been doing all game. It's about taking out those who seem the most suspicious. If you're no longer my most suspicious person, then she'd be next. Hell, you wanted to lynch her and then changed your mind minutes later without expanding on it. If you're saying I'm calculated then you should look in the mirror. I'm not even saying to lynch her now, but that I'd be supportive of it after a discussion.

[cytheflyguy]

I'll flip green (sorry). But again, don't know if I can be a super active participant in this game this week, so probably better to get it out of the way now.

VOTE: Impede

This is not good to vote yourself now. Regardless of who the vote is today we still should make a plan for the next two days if you flip green. I personally still slight town read you but as now the only two people I trust are Luca and Comm I'll be okay hammering down the line.

[cytheflyguy]

Fair. I'm fine with being lynched today as it would be better to not have these suspicions during final 4 or 3. My reads have also been pretty shit all game so I can see why I'm on the chopping block.

I'm not giving up, mind you. I just am at a loss of what to push before I die...

[cytheflyguy]

That....was so tense. I don't even know how I got so far??? I kinda choked today bc I didn't know how to throw Impede under the bus after saying I townread him.

But yeah, thanks everybody haha

[cytheflyguy]

No objection on mafia thread

Same here

[cytheflyguy]

I also made the mistake of not voting for Impede when the opportunity presented itself. I put too much on the hopes that it'd make me look town. Ugh..I was so close and could have pull clutch. :/

[cytheflyguy]

Well... I wouldn't say he'd win because I had Cult locked at town with only Luca under suspicion. So he'd have to get my mislynched in a MYLO situation which I don't think would happen.

But yeah, this game was a pretty solid one. I think scum of future games need to be more willing to bus because they have ZERO kill abilities, so they need to be in a hard town-bloc or they lose.

Fair. But hey, at least I could have made it to LyLo

[cytheflyguy]

Good game.

I agree cy did well, although we should have nailed him earlier really.

Hindsight is 20/20