One hour a day on a game should be more than enough. One hour a day on all games combined honestly shouldn't really be considered that terrible, though if you do that you should really be at <=3 games IMO.In post 44, LlamaFluff wrote:I don't buy that in order to play a game on this site you have to be nearly constantly online. It should be a site where you can spend a few hours after work, or between classes, or things like that and be able to keep up with the game.
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
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Alisaes French Maid Goon
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Legit I have met so many players who have amazing reads.
But they use the same shit tells that don't work for them over and over on other reads and if they just tried to adapt they would be good.
But since they don't there reads will always be 1/2 or lower since they continue to use faulty tells riding on the high of the times when they got lucky.Alisae is my master, if you have reason to believe I am misbehaving, please contact them.-
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Alisaes French Maid Goon
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Weird how RC, Elli and Smith the strong mafia players are the ones with the good mentalities on how to improve and the bad ones are saying otherwiseIn post 49, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like in the end sometimes it's the person who got lyncheds fault but every time you mislynch someone you should be stopping and thinking about why that was and trying to learn better for next time.
I find there's a lot of people willing to just write off the fact that they're mislynching people left right and center and who barely even try to learn from it or improve and that's how your ability stagnates.
You can blame other people for what went wrong but in the end the only person you can change is you.
And tonereads are fine. There's not 1 way of playing mafia Lycanfire
Alisae is my master, if you have reason to believe I am misbehaving, please contact them.-
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Lil Uzi Vert Survivor
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Alisaes French Maid Goon
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RadiantCowbells He/himSmooth CriminalHe/him
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People want different things. I think that MS should focus on trying to offer a playing experience for everyone.In post 50, mhsmith0 wrote:
One hour a day on a game should be more than enough. One hour a day on all games combined honestly shouldn't really be considered that terrible, though if you do that you should really be at <=3 games IMO.In post 44, LlamaFluff wrote:I don't buy that in order to play a game on this site you have to be nearly constantly online. It should be a site where you can spend a few hours after work, or between classes, or things like that and be able to keep up with the game.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.-
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Lil Uzi Vert Survivor
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Yeah I’m consistently scum read as town and town read as scum despite not doing anything drastically different but I know I need to improve.In post 38, Ellibereth wrote:
Meh.In post 36, Mulch wrote:
This is literally itIn post 13, Mulch wrote:The reason towns struggle:
1) Overconfidence in reads
2) People think non scummy things are scummy
Who disagrees with this
For number 2 it goes both ways.
If you're scumread when you're town by another town player both players have room for improvement.
Hard to use meta correctly and certain players you just can’t meta.In post 47, Mulch wrote:Oh yeah
People don’t use meta
People are OPPOSED to meta
That’s a huge reason why towns lose here
No joke
It really is-
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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Yeah you're right.In post 44, LlamaFluff wrote:
It doesn't fully work both ways though.In post 6, Ellibereth wrote:I mean I understand the qualms of the whole geriatric crew and am an absolute supporter of that sort of game being a consistent thing.
But blaming losses hyperposters and "bullshit" in a nongeriatric game because you consequently can't keep up is silly. Someone could argue just as easily the blame lies on the person that's unable to keep up. It doesn't just go in one direction.
If half of the game is making twenty posts a day (good content or nothing), and the other half cant reach that (work, school, etc) the people posting have a decision to make
1) Post less in order to allow the rest of the game to contribute
2) Continue posting while knowing that they are impacting the ability of players to contribute to the game.
You can argue that by intentionally hyper posting knowing that a portion of the game is unable to be effective due to it is in itself an anti-town action as you immediately cripple the amount of information that you get from a few players by your own choice. There is a difference between a lurker and a player who only has a few hours a day to play. Its a bit of hyperbole, but it would be like having a PR which allows you to limit the amount of posts someone could make to a detrimental point, and then arguing that its something that helps the town to use it on a random player.
I don't buy that in order to play a game on this site you have to be nearly constantly online. It should be a site where you can spend a few hours after work, or between classes, or things like that and be able to keep up with the game.
I mean the argument a hyperposter could make there is "the way I'm playing is going to turn out to be so positive that it cancels out the negative for you being unable to read everything" just like the argument from your side is "it's worth it for you to change how you post in a way that potentially is more uncomfortable to you so I can read the game and be more effective".
Either argument can be true depending on the specific case. I think we intuitively think the hyper-poster lowering their volume is the more polite and expedeint thing to do because we feel like it wouldn't signifigantly impact their happiness level and that its fairly easy to do(we're not asking them to chop off an arm!). But who knows, maybe posting less is hard for certain people and would actually ruin their day. In the end of the day if they don't feel like posting less there's nothing you can really do once the game starts.
I agree with you that you should not have to be constantly online. There's the garuanteed geriatric set for that if you want to read everything. And even for "spam heavy games" I think there are techniques to be effective while only using an hour or so a day. Reading everything isn't absolutely required. It's just an adjustment. (One I had to make coming back to this site!)FLASH OF GREEN-
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Creature Solve This Game
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RadiantCowbells He/himSmooth CriminalHe/him
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It's more than that thoughIn post 58, Creature wrote:Not blaming someone for being mislynched is more of a "you should adapt yourself to others, not others themselves to you"
I remember once I was watching my brother play akali mid, and he was like 4-1 killing his lane every once in a while but his bottom lane was like 0-9 or something
and he was like yeah this is the reason I'm (dont remember elo anymore), I always end up with terrible teams
well sure yes your team was objectively bad. some players are objectively worse at towntelling than others. but if I was in that game at that elo it wouldn't have mattered if bot lane was feeding
you can blame others or you can try to improve yourself so that it doesn't matter anymore, and only one of them is a direct link to increasing your personal success
and this isn't even like that where they're directly hurting the team necessarily, they're just different and you have to adjust to the difference. not expect them to conform to you.
I feel like arguments where people say everyone should play like 'x' are people implicitly acknowledging that they can't read people who don't think like them and that's not a good thingLast edited by RadiantCowbells on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.-
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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and the (unfortunate?) adjustment a player could potentially have to make is if they think all the loud people's reads are wrong and that there own are correct would be to shout even LOUDER. And a lot of us are bad at knowing when we're more likely to be wrong than someone else so the cycle goes on.In post 53, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Biggest thing for me is ego and “me first attitude”.
Don’t get the sense that most people are really interested in playing mafia here so much as having shouting circles insisting that they're "more right”.FLASH OF GREEN-
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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You only call me strong because I never rand wolf on MSIn post 52, Alisaes French Maid wrote:Weird how RC, Elli and Smith the strong mafia players are the ones with the good mentalities on how to improve and the bad ones are saying otherwise
Showhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
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mhsmith0 Balancing Act
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I mean I'm a master at blaming others and my town win rate is stuck around 50%In post 59, RadiantCowbells wrote:you can blame others or you can try to improve yourself so that it doesn't matter anymore, and only one of them is a direct link to increasing your personal successShowhttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?-
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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I've usually felt that the more I learn about something, the more I become aware that I still don't know a lot about that thing. That's applied to mafia as well.In post 45, Lycanfire wrote:I should have confidence on a subject I know well.
It's called taking a stand on something. Opposed to being unclear about my motives.
My viewpoint is "this concept can lead you to better evidence but offer nothing worthwhile to yourself or town". If you dispute that by genuinely believing that solving slots isn't in your interest, or that vague reads on players is okay, then keep these posts in mind the next time you find yourself in a situation like this in a game.
My dispute is that I could feel that it could offer something worthwhile and that convincing evidence sometimes isn't the most important thing in the world. I'm also not sure what game situation you're describing.FLASH OF GREEN-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Right. Meta is something that to me sets two baselines for playersIn post 56, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
Hard to use meta correctly and certain players you just can’t meta.In post 47, Mulch wrote:Oh yeah
People don’t use meta
People are OPPOSED to meta
That’s a huge reason why towns lose here
No joke
It really is
1) What I can expect from someone on a basic skill and logic set. Essentially how strong of a player they are, how likely they are to try and gambit, how likely are they to commit common scum tells as town, etc.
2) What I can expect from someone activity wise. Enough to have an idea of if they are suddenly way more or less active which may relate to the game in some way.
Very strong meta tells beyond that are rare to exist with any sort of consistency. There have only been a few players I think can be read near perfectly through a few meta tells. Most of the time meta is knowing enough about a player to be able to identify an irregularity in play, not "X always does Y as alignment Z". Its more of "X has never done Y before, I should dig into that". An example could be something like "Player X almost always attack a player when they bring self-meta into a game as a defense. Player Y just brought self-meta into the game as a defense but Player X ignored it. Why?"-
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Firebringer Trail Blazer
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Yeah I want to be more right than everyone elseIn post 53, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Biggest thing for me is ego and “me first attitude”.
Don’t get the sense that most people are really interested in playing mafia here so much as having shouting circles insisting that they're "more right”.Show"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown-
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smilefires Townie
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I swear someone needs to unbreak random.org so it can't tell what site you're playing on.In post 61, mhsmith0 wrote:
You only call me strong because I never rand wolf on MSIn post 52, Alisaes French Maid wrote:Weird how RC, Elli and Smith the strong mafia players are the ones with the good mentalities on how to improve and the bad ones are saying otherwise
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Also, explaining your own reads helps tons with reading your own posts (or notes) later. After a game, too, you can self-eval by going back and colorizing your reads, and perhaps you realize some indicator is not working out as reliably as you'd like, and adjust accordingly.
Meta's a nice enough baseline but "strong" meta is probably often misused. Ideally those types of tells are hard to escape if they're truly indicative of anything.-
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Espeonage anySurvivorany
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Time reads are among the most consistently useful reads there are.In post 31, Lycanfire wrote:On the subject of meta / town losses / examples of good townplay / goalposts
Tonereads are awfulIn post 517, Alisae wrote:Dear Prof. mhsmith0
What do I do if I get "toneread" as scum in all of my towngames when I am really obvtown and have good reads?
Thanks, Alisae
And your response is typical of the biggest problem, which I feel I can comment on considering I'm recently back from a two year hiatus.
Y'all don't know what the fuck you are doing. People are reading stuff and flat out drawing the wrong conclusions. You read town tone as scum. You read scum motivation as town trying to shake things up.
Like go back to the basics. I'll give you some tips.
Being wrong is a towntell. Pushing misslynches consistently isn't.
Lying is bad when done regularly. Lying is only good if it is going to pay off in almost every situation.
Gambits are bullshit. Only do it if you can close to assure it will work otherwise it will ruin a game. Or if there is little opportunity cost.
Listen to people, you ain't shit until you've proven it.Don't @ me.-
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Espeonage anySurvivorany
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Espeonage anySurvivorany
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This is categorically incorrect.In post 33, Alisaes French Maid wrote:Tone reading is good if you have meta to actually make sense out of it.
Tone reading without meta is kinda garbo tbh.
Like the entire purpose of a tone read is you need meta to know what there tone is supposed to usually be like but most people just use it as a charisma read. Don't think it's fair to shit on tone reads because of that.
Meta is why people that think they can tone read actually can't.Don't @ me.-
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Alisaes French Maid Goon
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I disagree you can't reliably tone read someone without any meta because this isn't real life and a lot is lost between IRL mafia and forum mafia it's really hard to determine if someone is disingenuous based on the words they use while typing alone.In post 69, Espeonage wrote:This is categorically incorrect.
Meta is why people that think they can tone read actually can't.
For example some people can just be annoyed irl, someone may have just walked home in the rain, someone may have just got into a fight irl or someone may jut not like someone in the game.
There isn't really such a thing as "good" or "bad" tone and I feel like general tone reads are just kind of shit.
And I really disagree that meta doesn't help you tone read people post and think in different ways that reflects on there writing when they are different alignments if you actually know what you are looking for. I agree some people just try and force tone reads and don't actually know what they are looking for but that's different.
Although a lot of this depends on how broad we are willing to go with what "tone" is, like for example I don't consider a scum player posturing to be a tone issue and you don't really need meta to figure out if someone is posturing.Alisae is my master, if you have reason to believe I am misbehaving, please contact them.-
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RadiantCowbells He/himSmooth CriminalHe/him
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Alisaes French Maid Goon
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RadiantCowbells He/himSmooth CriminalHe/him
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Ellibereth Deus ex Machina
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I disagree with this. I think people should feel comfortable experimenting with things even if they're not sure if it works or not. There's no mafia "sandbox" or "practice" mode to do that in so the only way to test ideas is in actual games.Oh and don't use a technique until you know how to use it.FLASH OF GREEN
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