Micro 767: Spyro the Dragon Mafia - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

Prodding Wisdom

[Wisdom]

here

[BuJaber]

We don't really know town's power though so how do we know if it's op. One IC means a little easier to lynch scum which probably delays mylo. (Even if desperado shot town). Especially that there aren't any nights so scum need lynches just as much as town do.

[Kublai Khan]

What I know about setup is that I had to publicly state my dayvig. Looking at Alisaes French Maid's role PM, she did not.

UC Voyager's double vote is accounted for by the mod (7 alive, 5 to lynch). Which means that we (as town) have to convince UC Voyager to go along with a lynch. If UC Voyager was scum, then it's really odd that we'd have to convince the last remaining scum to vote a certain way to get a lynch.

If UC Voyager is exactly what he says he is, then he is a VT tomorrow and we can deal with that later.

Right now, with the remaining time, I'd like to encourage a wagon on lurking Wisdom.

[garaputo]

What I know about setup is that I had to publicly state my dayvig. Looking at Alisaes French Maid's role PM, she did not.

UC Voyager's double vote is accounted for by the mod (7 alive, 5 to lynch). Which means that we (as town) have to convince UC Voyager to go along with a lynch. If UC Voyager was scum, then it's really odd that we'd have to convince the last remaining scum to vote a certain way to get a lynch.

If UC Voyager is exactly what he says he is, then he is a VT tomorrow and we can deal with that later.

Right now, with the remaining time, I'd like to encourage a wagon on lurking Wisdom.

We did get that intensely powerful contribution when prodded of "here"

I don't know if we want to deprive ourselves of such insight.

[UC Voyager]

What I know about setup is that I had to publicly state my dayvig. Looking at Alisaes French Maid's role PM, she did not.

UC Voyager's double vote is accounted for by the mod (7 alive, 5 to lynch). Which means that we (as town) have to convince UC Voyager to go along with a lynch. If UC Voyager was scum, then it's really odd that we'd have to convince the last remaining scum to vote a certain way to get a lynch.

If UC Voyager is exactly what he says he is, then he is a VT tomorrow and we can deal with that later.

Right now, with the remaining time, I'd like to encourage a wagon on lurking Wisdom.

We did get that intensely powerful contribution when prodded of "here"

I don't know if we want to deprive ourselves of such insight.

Please explain what you mean

[northsidegal]

@ucv

here

[garaputo]

To clarify - <s>I don't know if I can live with myself if I were to deprive the town from such obvious effort to solve the game as 1 word responses to a prod. </s>

[Kublai Khan]

please shoot me quickly so i can conftown

Just a reminder that Wisdom had the exact same reaction to my day vig claim that Alisaes French Maid had. And she turned scum.

Is UC Voyager is lying about being a Day 1 Double Voter, we can find out and hash it out on Day 2.

But Wisdom is scum.

[northsidegal]

please shoot me quickly so i can conftown

Just a reminder that Wisdom had the exact same reaction to my day vig claim that Alisaes French Maid had. And she turned scum.

Is UC Voyager is lying about being a Day 1 Double Voter, we can find out and hash it out on Day 2.

But Wisdom is scum.

it's not that i think ucv is

lying

about being a day 1 doublevoter, it's that i think that makes him scum. now, i've certainly been burned in the past many times by being too adamantly against lurker / low-content lynches, but i feel like from wisdom's reaction to the massclaim idea he's town. beeboy went against it but not really in any sort of "attempt to convince town that this is a bad idea" way, but moreso in a "i'll state the obvious and take the position that seems more likely to be townread but without doing so with real conviction" way. compared to wisdom's reaction, it seems townie to me.

Spoiler: beeboy's reaction

Scum likely have some kind of anti claim.

I disagree with this being good play tbh.
If we get 1 scum flip and see a role pm I will reevaluate my opinion.

I mean I guess?

I think the mass claim is going to go one of 2 ways.

We are vanilla setup with your role being the town power in which case we all say "VT".
Or scum have some way to interact with us and claiming is bad.

There is no world where we claim real roles and having a mass claim not be a bad idea.

Spoiler: wisdom's reaction

im against a mass claim; the mod isn't an idiot and has probably accounted for it

i don't, and i find mass claim d1 stupid in any game

im not claiming either

garaputo is right; all youve managed to do is halt the game and let scum hide in "lets claim" posts

"It's not mafia!" is not a good argument given that I can likely search up and find plenty of games that have done a mass claim Day 1.

ive played in like 150 games and none of them did it

the good argument is that its crap. Its a closed setup and you dont know how scum benefit or not from knowing who is what. And its also against the spirit of the game.

Just because the game is nightless, it does not follow that vomiting all the role information into the thread won't hurt the town.

This; usually games that are nightless have some other mechanic in place; we know nothing about the setup right now

its like youve never played mafia before

Leaving aside how wrong mass claim is and pretending its something town should want; its ridiculous to think that every townie will be pro massclaim and every scum against it

[northsidegal]

VOTE: radical rat

[Radical Rat]

I suppose you're right about Voyager being essentially vanilla tomorrow.

Idk, I still think he's scum though, and his balance argument is... not convincing.

I'll sheep on Wisdom if I have to, but I'd prefer not to since he's town by PoE

[northsidegal]

I'll sheep on Wisdom if I have to, but I'd prefer not to since he's town by PoE

what does your process for that poe look like?

[BuJaber]

We know for sure that UCV can double vote (at least in day 1, we aren't 100% sure he will still have it going forward) because he used it on me earlier. So there's no question of his ability. The question is can he also be scum. He's saying no obviously but he's using game setup reasons to back it up when I think that's the right way for town to go about it. Town imo should just focus on scumhunting and generally being pro town and by doing that we can believe their claim.

His posts have been lacking in general for me to be convinced he's town. It feels like scum lurking.

[BuJaber]

We know for sure that UCV can double vote (at least in day 1, we aren't 100% sure he will still have it going forward) because he used it on me earlier. So there's no question of his ability. The question is can he also be scum. He's saying no obviously but he's using game setup reasons to back it up when I think

that's NOT the right way

for town to go about it. Town imo should just focus on scumhunting and generally being pro town and by doing that we can believe their claim.

His posts have been lacking in general for me to be convinced he's town. It feels like scum lurking.

Ebwop

[Kublai Khan]

it's not that i think ucv is lying about being a day 1 doublevoter, it's that i think that makes him scum. now, i've certainly been burned in the past many times by being too adamantly against lurker / low-content lynches, but i feel like from wisdom's reaction to the massclaim idea he's town. beeboy went against it but not really in any sort of "attempt to convince town that this is a bad idea" way, but moreso in a "i'll state the obvious and take the position that seems more likely to be townread but without doing so with real conviction" way. compared to wisdom's reaction, it seems townie to me.

The only reason Wisdom reacted so much to it was because I pushed him to do so. And I disagree that it was a town reaction. His arguments against were vague and generalized, which suggests that he's leaving himself ample room to not corner himself into a story should a mass claim actually happen.

Also, compare his participation. At the beginning of the game, he was busy taking little digs at people. But after a scum turn he becomes immediately aloof and pops in only to prod dodge and continue a meaningless one person wagon. I realize that lethargy is NAI, but the fact that it starts immediately after a scum death is suspicious. It's like he felt his chances of winning diminish.

[northsidegal]

The only reason Wisdom reacted so much to it was because I pushed him to do so. And I disagree that it was a town reaction. His arguments against were vague and generalized, which suggests that he's leaving himself ample room to not corner himself into a story should a mass claim actually happen.

even if you think his arguments were vague, i'd say that his stance on it was pretty solid. for me, it's the fact that it was this thing that it really seems to me that he has genuine convictions on that got him to start posting that makes him town. like, it feels really genuine that he held the strong opinion that massclaims are bad and that we shouldn't do one. beeboy did what i would think a scum taking that position would do, make their position known but not really attempt to prevent a massclaim at all, given that it still benefits scum for it to happen. if wisdom with scum with beeboy and knew that they had the day-2 vig, i think don't think we would have seen the slight playstyle change that i think exists.

could you elaborate on what you mean by "not corner himself into a story"? it's not like he would have had to claim anything.

[Kublai Khan]

even if you think his arguments were vague, i'd say that his stance on it was pretty solid. for me, it's the fact that it was this thing that it really seems to me that he has genuine convictions on that got him to start posting that makes him town. like, it feels really genuine that he held the strong opinion that massclaims are bad and that we shouldn't do one. beeboy did what i would think a scum taking that position would do, make their position known but not really attempt to prevent a massclaim at all, given that it still benefits scum for it to happen. if wisdom with scum with beeboy and knew that they had the day-2 vig, i think don't think we would have seen the slight playstyle change that i think exists.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but remember that Alisaes French Maid's actions didn't quite make sense either. A Day 2 dayvig should have been pro-massclaim because it would give her the best target to choose from if she was alive tomorrow.

So either her partner was pro-massclaim and she was taking a divergent path. But it comes back to Wisdom's really bad post that "both scum are hiding on the 'pro-claim' side". It just strikes me as a super WIFOM comment to make. And the "shoot me so I'm conftown" idea is also super-WIFOM. When I add together all the red flag, Wisdom is the way to go.

Also, I do think that the UC Voyager situation is something we can punt to tomorrow. And we need a lynch before deadline.

Join the Wisdom wagon.

[BuJaber]

Actually I'm playing with the assumption that one was for amd one against the pro claim, which is what led me to AFM in the first place.
So imo this clears wisdom and garaputo even if they don't have other towntells (which they do).

Nsg called it "too scummy to be scum" logic but I don't see wisdom being scum. I think someone who even when he was posting was generally quiet and had short posts would likely be more lethargic as you call it if they're town knowing that we already caught 1 scum.

I'm not gonna fight strongly on his behalf; I've learnt from experience how almost-criminally deceptive scum can be and he might be scum, but I'm just saying that after you (conftown) he's currently my top townread, with gara being a close second.

Ideally I see this lynch being between Rat and UCV. After his latest post Rat is winning the who's scummier game, but let's see how he responds to nsg.
Rat knows that at the very least there's one person (me) scumreading/pushing for his lynch and his only post of late is to throw suspicion at UCV and declare willingness to lynch wisdom? The 2 people who if anyone paying attention to the game would conclude are the other possible lynches today. That comes off as very self-serving.

[Wisdom]

eh i could lynch rat but north is better

[Not_Mafia]

VC 1.13

garaputo (0)-

northsidegal (1)-

Wisdom

Wisdom (1)-

Kublai Khan

Radical Rat (1)-

noerthsidegal

BuJaber (0)-

UC Voyager (3)-

Radical Rat, BuJaber, garaputo

(L-2)

Kublai Khan (0)-

Not Voting (1)-

UC Voyager

With 7 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2018-01-10 13:15:00) - Jan 10th 13:15 GMT

[garaputo]

I'm happy with lynching any of UC Voyager, Radical Rat, and Wisdom. I think that wisdom and radical rat are jumping up the list fast, so I'll go with the conftown vote for now:

VOTE: Wisdom

[UC Voyager]

VOTE: both on rad rat

I have explains my suspicion of him and believe this is justified.

[BuJaber]

If rat gets another vote I intend to hammer.

[garaputo]

VOTE: Radical Rat