Newbie 1845 - A New Dawn Game Over

[Creature]

Feeling better.

[Creature]

I don't think it should matter how much IC info someone shared.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually it does and within the bounds of the game I've only talked about it as it pertained to the game, besides the throwaway comment about complaining to PP.
I do not think that LUV is giving genuine play advice to the newbies and I think it is because he is scum. My personal views on how acceptable that is come secondary for now to my desire to lynch him for it.

[Sando]

Am I encouraging newbies to selfvote? Fuck no, because largely they can't determine what the correct situation to do so is. And generally I try to set a good role model for everyone and not just myself, like I linked to you in several games where I said that I assessed my own reads as the best in the game and a specific person as scum but chose to lynch the person scumread by the majority of players instead because that's USUALLY the correct play, but I think that me being scumread here is a very teachable moment because it's so flagrantly fucking wrong.

I am the objectively most obvious town in this game by any measure of towniness, I've tried hard to scumhunt, I've been reevaluating reads, I've been trying to make a good newer player experience, I've shown genuine emotion in how I've responded to things. I should not be scumread. Me being scumread isn't just slightly off kilter here it's mind blowing.

Ok so your response to me posting my first real post(s) at a bit over 1200 words:

Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.

I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.

So just to recap, your "creating a good new player experience" plan is:

1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.
2) Self vote to set up a plan where town lynches a townie then blindly lynches 3 other players for the win, because apparently this is fun and interactive gameplay that will teach newbies how to play the game...
3) Complain about a derp-tunnel which in your own reads is 2 scum, 1 townie and yourself (red, LUV being your said scumpool and 2 of the 3 votes on you). I'm sure things have changed since I last played, but 2 scums and a townie (in your reads) running a train on a townie doesn't really meet the definition of a derp-tunnel to me...
4) Not actually reply to my statements about some of your (yes you, not Saul) actions being scummy

[RadiantCowbells]

1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.

Before I continue this response: did I denigrate you, the person behind the game AT ALL?

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually also independent of that response: please cite the points that you've made about how I specifically am scummy if you want me to address them.

My apologies if I missed anything.

[Sando]

1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.

Before I continue this response: did I denigrate you, the person behind the game AT ALL?

Before I continue this response: did I say you denigrated me AT ALL? Or did I say you denigrated my reads? I'm saying you appealed to (your own) authority, if we wanna go full wiki. I'm saying it was scummy, not that you were an ass.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay. I was trying to clarify that because believe it or not I care a lot more about whether or not you think that I was being an ass than scummy.
I was trying to make sure we're on the same page that I wasn't trying to be an ass and if you were I wanted to work it out.

[Sando]

Here ya go:

Saul/RC:

So I wasn’t really onboard with the early Saul train, but threatening sheep with a counter-lynch in 295 was…not great. Basically lurks/drops though so not much more read.

RC though…whoa there boy. Ok the claim strat thing was…weird, but the setups for newbies is very different from when I previously played so I don’t really know what to make of it. The defence in 619 that they’ve recently arrived and basically should be given a pass into day 2…absolutely no way that’s happening. Also apparently we’re close enough to sundown that we should give him a pass, but he’s getting jumpy and stops the L-1 train on Inferno reeeeally late in the day.

Saying he’s going to be forced to claim in 673 is seemingly out of nowhere, and yeah I think pretty scummy.

692 is actually an excellent post, certainly pushed him down my scum-list.

#727 and others RC: “you’re gonna look stupid when I flip town” is not an experienced players response to being pushed. Appeals directly to Inferno’s emotions. Funnily enough from his wiki, appealing to emotions is exactly what RC worked on for his scum-games (1769 - Happy New Year).

[RadiantCowbells]

@673: I was planning from that point to refuse to support any wagons that weren't myself or LUVs. From that point of view with the reads around myself and LUV, yes I 100% believe I would have had to claim before LUV got lynched.
You say it's out of nowhere but it happened because I was trying to think how the rest of the day would go and measure reads and I came to the conclusion that I would basically inevitably be lynched before LUV.
I think that you're largely calling it scummy because you don't understand the way that I play, which I understand for my part but what do you think the actual scum motivation was for me to claim VT there?

@692: yay.

@727: Again, this is a difference of playstyles. I don't recall calling anyone stupid, I did not mean to, and I'm sorry if I did. But I think emphasizing how obvtown that I feel that I've been is important to understanding why I'm playing the way that I am. If I was like having a generally bad game and that was why I was being scumread and the push on me wasn't pure scum motivation then I wouldn't react the way I have because then it's my fault I'm being scumread and my focus would be on showing that I'm town. I resorted to selfvoting because I felt that in an objective sense I had done the best I could to show that I was town and it wasn't working.

And yes: I appeal to emotion as both alignments. AtE is a lot more common now than it was when you played, in no insignificant way because of yours truly.
I think that if you read this game and that game side by side and really think about my motivations when I'm posting it's clear that I come from a different place in this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh and as for the 619 bit, I don't ever say what you say that I say about being ignored to D2. Other people say that.
My 619 just says that I'm town so he should stop voting me.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I look four time

Huh?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

A contradiction is made when you have any two (or more) premises that cannot be true at the same time. Wanting transparency and believing that 15+ pages normally contains enough content to end a day is by no means a contradiction.

I am most certainty not encouraging anyone to tunnel. I was simply just reminding everyone that if a player feels they have a solid foundation for why they scum read someone’s predecessors and we’re close to deadline, there is very little a replacement can do or say to change that.

You’re most certainly attacking my character, RC. You’re claiming I’m being unethical just to win a meaningless social deduction game. You’re essential trying to tarnish my name.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm trying to lynch you. You tarnished your own name, LUV.

[RadiantCowbells]

Besides, again, saying that I was complaining to PP about it: I have said absolutely nothing against you in this game besides what was necessary for explaining my stances on why you were scum.
You seem to feel entitled to me not addressing something that you are clearly doing in the most game related manner I can possibly address it. You are not entitled to that.

I do not believe that there is any explanation for your actions thus far than that you are giving the newbies bad play advice intentionally. If I'm wrong, explain your actions after game.
If I thought there was even the slightest possibility that you were town I would have tackled this a little more diplomatically but I do not think such a possibility coincides with your play this game.

I'm not going to entertain the play advice that you gave following my replace in by debating it as if it's worth debating. If you have a problem with what I've said about your advice, take it up with me after game.

[Sando]

I think that you're largely calling it scummy because you don't understand the way that I play, which I understand for my part but what do you think the actual scum motivation was for me to claim VT there?

I'm calling it scummy because it's commonly accepted as anti-town. Play how you play, but commonly accepted principles should be referenced and explained as to why it's not the case in this instance. "Hey I'm doing this thing that you normally shouldn't do because it gets outcome xyz and that's pro-town", not "hey I'm doing this normally anti-town thing but that's just how I am, so deal with it".

You're simultaneously making claim to being the most obvious pro-town person ever, and defending anti-town plays with "that's just how I am".

No, just...no. Newbies are specifically NOT in a position to understand why anti-town plays are sometimes pro-town and hence SEs are asked and ICs forced to be very careful with them. To claim that it's unreasonable for newbie-townies to not see you as OBVTOWN is in no way an ok argument to make, in your own words you do things typically seen as anti-town. Newbies are slaves to the wiki because they're looking for guidance, and it's ok to manipulate that as scum because that's how people learn, but it's not ok to claim that they should somehow know better.

But this all leads me to one conclusion: You're either a bad town SE or a good scum one.

Self voting in a newbie game as town, D1, without holding the towns hand through it and clearly articulating the reasons for it (without going mental at the IC) would be seen by any reasonable person as bad town SE. Importantly, this is REGARDLESS of whether you are town or whether your play is actually going to help town, you're setting a bad example.

Self voting in a newbie game as scum, well that makes sense.

Lets have a look at the circumstances of your self vote shall we:

RadiantCowbells (3)Lil Uzi Vert , Aviqf , RedFlavor , L-2
Inferno390 (1)sando ,
RedFlavor (1)thenavneet ,
Lil Uzi Vert (1)Inferno390 ,

Note that Red and LUV are in your scumlist, along with creature who isn't voting. So according to you there's 4 town voting (Avi, Sando, thenav, Inferno), and they're split evenly at 1 each on two town (you and Inferno) and two scum (Red and LUV).

This situation is basically begging for an experienced player to step up, explain what's going on, how the train is being strongly scum-led etc. If Red+LUV is true then they've left themselves HORRIBLY exposed and that should be explained to town-newbies. Instead, you rage about how you're the most obviously pro-town ever and we're silly for not recognising that, despite there being a single, solitary, one person from town voting you. So basically you decided to self vote because a sole townie voted you...top job there SE. The current votes on you btw, according to your reads, are 2 scum and yourself...

You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[RadiantCowbells]

If that's how you feel that's how you feel. If you're town I think you find my playstyle so offensive that you're not honestly evaluating me. If you're scum, then you're scum.

Just lynch the people that I've told you to on future days.

[Sando]

If you're town I think you find my playstyle so offensive that you're not honestly evaluating me.

I flat out cannot see how your play is a good example of town play

in the context of a newbie game.

I don't find it personally offensive and I can see how in the context of other types of games what you've done would be seen as less scummy, although I wouldn't go so far as to say pro-town.

[RadiantCowbells]

And no: I don't think any further handholding was necessary. I fully explained why I did everything that I did and where I wanted town to go from there. I also never raged at the IC, I tackled it as minimally as possible to avoid bogging the game down in a discussion of what it means to be a competent IC. Which, for the record, was against my wincondition because I guarantee if I actually blew up on LUV like I want to for how poor of a job he has done this game I would be locktowned by everyone town for it because you can't fake that kind of rage. But I've chosen to keep it to myself in the interest of maintaining a positive game experience for everyone else.

You label things anti-town, I label them pro-town. I don't subscribe to your views on how mafia is played, I don't subscribe to your views on what my job is as an SE. Unfortunately for you my side largely won the culture war and you'll find the styles of play in 2017 MS a lot closer to mine than whatever people you're used to playing with.

You may not like my playstyle but I hope that you can learn to control whatever knee jerk reaction you're feeling.

I flat out cannot see how your play is a good example of town play in the context of a newbie game. I don't find it personally offensive and I can see how in the context of other types of games what you've done would be seen as less scummy, although I wouldn't go so far as to say pro-town.

Believe me, I get it. You're not the first person from your era who reacts the way you have to my play.

[RadiantCowbells]

You do have a point about there being two scum votes on me though. I still hold the view that my lynch is somewhat beneficial for town but in the interests of playing in a way that you will appreciate more

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vet

[RadiantCowbells]

And frankly you being there was a large part of it because I knew your vote was going to find its way onto me. If you're town you need a reset because you're playing this game in a way that doesn't work in 2018. I think making as much fanfare out of my lynch as possible is going to be the biggest influence on how you end up playing the remainder of the game. But I don't think that any amount of explanation of who I am or why I play the way I do will have any impact on you until you know that I'm town this game because you seem to think that everything that characterizes my play is straight up a scumtell. Which is, well, dead wrong. And you seem to think that I'm a bad example, but I'm also considered one of if not the best players who current play.

So I really don't know how to reach you from here besides by giving you my flip.

[RadiantCowbells]

Though, I do find it pretty... odd at best that you are fine with LUV's IC play but have an issue with my SE play.

[RadiantCowbells]

(But again I can see it as 2009 you fixating on the OMGWTFBBQ THATS NOT DONE stuff in my play as opposed to the gentler wrongness of everything that LUV has done.)
I'm flashier in my being opposed to whatever ideals you hold dear I guess.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature: I have difficulty believing that you do not have a strong enough stance on my alignment to take a vote or that you don't care enough to as town, but I do believe that you as scum would be avoiding this situation. If you are town you are a huge difference right here and should get involved. If you're scum, continue to avoid the game and you will be lynched for it later anyway, so.

[Sando]

And frankly you being there was a large part of it because I knew your vote was going to find its way onto me.

Lolwat? I came in, posted a wall of text against Inferno, and posted a couple of things about you I had issues with, and said you had "an excellent post", oh and said that I wasn't onboard with the Saul train. From that, you deduced that my vote was eventually going to come onto you? Anyone reading my post would reasonably assume I was dead-set on Inferno and I was seriously considering Sunlit. Oh here's my actual summation:

Sunlit and Avi are my strongest pings outside of Inferno. RC is a wildcard that I would like more information on (so yeah I'll give you a pass D1 after all lol), but I'm certainly not town-sold on.

So you're not in my top 3 and I've just said I wanted more info and was giving you a pass on D1...but you self voted because you knew my vote was going to find its way onto you.