Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've been very busy today, sorry, so just making a quick pop-in to say the whole swap situation makes me feel better about the Tchilllynch - it's certainly a better one than lynching Lickitung (even if Lickitung does post too much).

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Updated Reads List

Ranmaru

TSQ - He remains town to me for his consistent pushes, activity, and pro-town posts.
Llamarble - Same, remains pro-town overall, and I like him wanting to stick to Tchill.
LYCAN - I still like Lycan for town. His #430 is a really good one. I do like that he is asking Llama about the absense of choice. Would like an updated reads list.
Postie - She still seems townie to me, the only thing is that she's stuck on Eddie.
Dunnstral - His #587 is good, and his #646 is good. His #793 is good.
AD - I do like Dan's #374 and his #927. Slight town.
NSG - Again, I liked her persistence in asking CES about his scumreads, and her response to Llama. She's lacking presence now though, which is concerning.
Gamma - Gamma, I put a bit lower due to his switch to LQ here. Still overall find him townie and can see a townie reason to switch to LQ but not too sure about his feelings on Screen play.



Marquis - Marquis remains null here for me.
eDDIE - Eddie remains null. Also I hate his avatar too.
LQ - In reviewing, LQ's #98 and #104 are good posts. So, if he is town, then he is playing it sloppy. His play looks like mine in a previous scum game but overall, it seems more like he got off to a bad start.


CES - I still have CES as scum, I don't find his last few votes pro-town. I can see it as him not being able to find scum this game if he is town, as it is likey scum are trying to miss the radar.
Davsto - WGEURTS doesn't seem suspicious, but he did lurk out. Rather WGEURTZ early posts seemed null to me. Davsto seems to be stalling with his catch up, making excuses. As I read his catch up, I don't get any town tells from it. I don't get much scum tells, I just get the feeling him and his predecessor aren't trying to be as present, rather trying to be under the radar. Also, Tchill's vote on WGEURTZ is probably a link between the two if Screenplay/Tchill flips scum.
Screenplay - Tchill remains the overall most suspicious and awkward.

[Screenplay > Davsto > CES > LQ]

Vote: Screenplay

[Thestatusquo]

I've been very busy today, sorry, so just making a quick pop-in to say the whole swap situation makes me feel better about the Tchilllynch - it's certainly a better one than lynching Lickitung (even if Lickitung does post too much).

Can you explain this? I have no idea how the swap could make you happier about the lynch

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, what's your read on WGEURTZ/Davsto?

Didn't think much of wge, davsto kinda feels towny

[Ranmaru]

I'm voting Screenplay because I don't think his slot can be salvaged. I still think T-chill was overall weird and apologetic, and his posting seemed like he was posting to have the appearance of being present. I'm down with him being the lynch. Just want to see Davsto, Postie, NSG, and Marquis catch up.

[northsidegal]

yeah, catching up now. sorry guys, i'll admit to kind of putting this game on the backburner.

[Srceenplay]

Like, good on Ran for making end of day interesting but I don't think we should switch to LQ at this time. I promise to check more thoroughly tonight though. I am due for an LQ reread.

No.
I’m not ok with it and you promises don’t make me feel better.
If you genuinely think LQ has a chance to be scum entertain that idea now.
I don’t know why you think my vote on LQ is something ai of scum?
Especially your own words of thinking they are scumy. I don’t understand the double standard.

[Srceenplay]

I've been very busy today, sorry, so just making a quick pop-in to say the whole swap situation makes me feel better about the Tchilllynch - it's certainly a better one than lynching Lickitung (even if Lickitung does post too much).

Stop making the swap ai. Everyone.
The swap was explained and it can be seen as why it happened.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think that is what he's saying. I think that his point was simply that he can't give you town points because he thinks coming in and trying to switch the wagon on to the next most scum read player is really the only play you have in this situation if you're scum.

Llama can correct me if that's wrong.

[Srceenplay]

I mean you might be able to make an argument if we switched games.
Or even if we abandoned this to a new replacement. But I’m here to keep a force replacement from occurring. Not ai at all.
Scum read this slot because of what Tchill13 said in thread but don’t do it for BS.
I’m here to explain and show that those who scum read Tchill13 misunderstood him. I plan to correct it.

[Srceenplay]

I don't think that is what he's saying. I think that his point was simply that he can't give you town points because he thinks coming in and trying to switch the wagon on to the next most scum read player is really the only play you have in this situation if you're scum.

Llama can correct me if that's wrong.

I don’t even remember LQ as being a wagon when I replaced in. That makes no sense.

[Llamarble]

Mmhmm, what Shea said. Not the only play, but certainly the obvious one.

It had Ran pushing it and a number of expressed scumreads; I think it would be the obvious pick if you can tell the gamma wagon has no legs for today.

[Srceenplay]

I'm voting Screenplay because I don't think his slot can be salvaged. I still think T-chill was overall weird and apologetic, and his posting seemed like he was posting to have the appearance of being present. I'm down with him being the lynch. Just want to see Davsto, Postie, NSG, and Marquis catch up.

Well unvote me until there is a catch up then.

Again I think Tchill13 obviously came across wrong and I’m here to try and fix that.
It’s BS that so many people seem against that happening. That’s the whole point of the game. Interact. Reinterpret. Evolve reads.

[Ranmaru]

You can catch up while my vote is on you.

[Srceenplay]

Mmhmm, what Shea said. Not the only play, but certainly the obvious one.

It had Ran pushing it and a number of expressed scumreads; I think it would be the obvious pick if you can tell the gamma wagon has no legs for today.

You are making the assumption I’m up to date with that.
I think it is obvious I’m not.

[Srceenplay]

You can catch up while my vote is on you.

I can also do it with it off me.
Thanks.

[LicketyQuickety]

Again I think Tchill13 obviously came across wrong and I’m here to try and fix that.
It’s BS that so many people seem against that happening. That’s the whole point of the game. Interact. Reinterpret. Evolve reads.

You can't "fix" things like this. The best you can come to this is having people reevaluate you based on your play.

Also, I am really curious if you could share some of Chills notes that he gave on me, thanks.

[Srceenplay]

Also, I am really curious if you could share some of Chills notes that he gave on me, thanks.

Not mentioned in pt at all.

In all total he only has 3 or 4 sentences about this game.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I am really curious if you could share some of Chills notes that he gave on me, thanks.

Not mentioned in pt at all.

In all total he only has 3 or 4 sentences about this game.

And you are basing a SR on me based on 3 or 4 sentences taken from someone secondhand?

[Llamarble]

Dunn has a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Llamarble is essentially a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Postie looks more or less like a naked vote as well.
Wgeurts is voting marquise because there is nothing better to vote atm. This looks kinda opportunistic.
GE vote is prolly the Scummiest of all of them, tbh. Weird that they say Llama is wrong about Postie but right about Marquise. How does GE know Llama is Town if they have such a disparity of reads?

Creature thinks Eddie, Dan and North are Town.

I would never use this argument because it lacks anything concrete, but Mulch said that Llama should fuck off with their SR on us.

What do you think about the parts of the post (most of it) that aren't directed at you?

Well that's an interesting way to sidestep what I said.

What I see is lack of consistency into the methodology to get the reads that Reck is representing. In the first case, Reck is using a mind meld read. In the second, he is using a read based on play. And in the third he is using a meta read. So it's quite confusing why Reck is using three methods to get 3 different reads.

Do you actually think its unusual to use different things to understand your surroundings as they become relevant?

No, I don't. But I do think that it shows that Reck either doesn't know what he is talking about because he is forced to use different methodologies instead of keeping the methodologies the same, or you are Scum and that is the reason for the different methodologies.

In short, Reck is using different tactics, so the goal must be the thing that is the same. See here to know what I am talking about: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69491
Basically, I think it's a bit more Scummy than Towny the way Reck goes about making these statements.

I disagree I guess. Frequently when I'm reading through a game I note things and end up with a list of things that bear no relation to each other. Its not because I'm "switching methodologies" or whatever, its that my methodology is reading the posts and seeing what things stick out to me. For instance, if I player I know well is playing very differently from how I would expect them to I take note of it, but I would also take note of posts by that player that seem to have town motivation behind them. I think most people play this way? I don't want to get too far down the theory rabbit hole but this is game relevant so I do want to talk about it

You have just moved the goal posts. We were not talking about how you get reads but how Reck came to the conclusion to the reads he gave. You don't what Reck's methodologies are for getting reads and there is evidence of the fact you didn't have this conversation because you said you assume most people play the same way you do without mentioning that Reck said he gets reads the same way you do.

I am getting more and more suspicious of you, shea, because you seem to be bringing up points with me only to drop them later when I say something you are not expecting. It's the hesitation that I see in your responses that tell me that you either feel I am on to something or don't know how to respond. Given you never talked Reck in what I said in reply to Reck, this leads me to believe you are not hesitant because you don't know how to respond (because otherwise you would have talked to Reck about what I said), but rather that you are Scum trying to give a believable spin on things.

FoS Shea

LQ I was afraid you had gotten more pleasant to play with since our last encounter lol. Her posts seem very methodical. Also what's the point in not giving postie scum if they're bad at scum but can be coached through the game?

What do you mean they seem more methodical? This is the same thing as saying Posties post's feel a certain way. I have no idea what you are talking about unless you show your work. Otherwise I am going to do what newbs do and look to see if I can see the angle that Posties posts look methodical and then I would ofc see that angle and think you are right.

Postie could be being coached. I am not ruling that out. It's especially true if Postie is on RC's team. I already thought of that, I just didn't comment on it because it's pretty much impossible to prove.

Spoiler: 21-30

You are impressing me with how stupid you are.

Why are you resorting to insults here? You are just sniping him with insults to undermine his position as universal town read.

LQ still looks town to me. Lots of posts I've glossed over admittedly and I probably could use to recheck my read there, but I don't see the scummitude others do.

Can you do that please? Also can you move your vote from Gamma. I don't think he's scum. Give me two scum picks bro.

I still don't know where CES stands in his reads this game and don't know why he thought Marquis was scummy to begin with earlier before the lurking.

Yeah, things aren't really going quite as planned; I thought things would develop more helpfully. The main reasons I found Marquis scummy very early on were 1) his general awkward tone early on and 2) the whole "representative" affectation. I think Signs and Void from last Team Mafia is pretty important context here - his early posts here feel really similar. I think both of those things are more significant than his lurking although his lurking has also felt scum-motivated (but I'd be more hard-pressed to explain the nuts and bolts of that feeling).

You never really explained your early scumread on Marbles. 1) I don't see how an awkward tone would mean it leans towards scum indicative. 2) I thought the representative thing was funny, but don't understand why you find it suspicious. Can you explain those two points?

VOTE: wgeurts

yeah i should have took my vote off postie apologies for that.

This shows that you aren't really caring to scumhunt, just give the appearance that you are.

Eddie, GE, why aren't you voting?

I wonder why you don't ask this question more often. (A good question to ask though)

any particular reason for voting the person being replaced? by the way, tchill has been active elsewhere on site but not here.
VOTE: tchill

As I was following the game I noticed this too. I wondered why he wasn't getting back to defend himself, while I constantly see his posts in other mafia games.

CES -

50/50 on Town/Null

Why is CES town/null?

"6 suspects" / "no CES" in post 430.

Nobody gets upset with someone that gives 11 towns 2 nulls in a mini. They might get upset with which reads fall onto certain people. Saying I can't find >3 people scummy at any given time is disingenuous. I placed a big-ass disclaimer at the beginning of my post that I didn't care about calling a team, working with a theory, and that I was going to put town or scum on everyone. Deal with it. Regarding the lack of CES, if you look closely I spell out "Vote CES" if you apply the Fibonacci sequence to every paragraph.

.... No, seriously, CES is clearly on my mind when I put Tchill in scum territory just for discounting the possibilities of CES. My first point was something I couldn't make heads or tails of, so he landed there purely as a result of my second point. All I was doing was making reads off of interesting developments within 3-4 pages. Deal with it.

:good posting: CES is also on my mind. I have nothing new to add, still lack of presence, not really scumhunting as much because he feels the thread hasn't developed, when it has developed plenty. The game state has been pretty laid back and I am to assume scum are playing it safe.

@lycanfire 606: I was engaging ef,not defending him. shade noted though.

VOTE: LQ
At this point I believe LQ is trying to make the people on his wagon look bad by challenging their opinions.

I agree, good vote.

the way you're challenging them feels like you just want to make them look bad, not that you care to help them

I like this too.

I feel I am doing that by showing them they are wrong. Look, this is pretty standard behavior for me as any alignment. I fight my SR's on me. You can look at pretty much any game and if I am SR then there is a really really good chance that I operate exactly how you are seeing me operate in this game.

It doesn't seem that way to me. You aren't trying to sort them, nor try to get them to see that they are wrong. You are trying to get them off your back, and then when it doesn't work, you vote them. Otherwise, you insult them. That doesn't work if you want to show people that they are wrong.

above post seems like a pretty bizarre overreaction. Forced?

Not beyond the norm for Gamma.

I assume you're asking about the second sentence since the VC should be self-evidently bad with the votes spread across 9 different people.

With Tchill, I see like 2 things that feel definitely scummy to me (the faux catch-up at the start, #212), some big picture "lack of scumhunting"-scumminess but then you also have his off-the-wall theory about Postie being coached (especially in the context of him disavowing team mafia-based theories) which is a nice town tell. It looks to me like a wagon driven by relatively crude heuristics.

What do you think of Tchill avoiding this game and posting in others right now? How does that affect your read on him?

Unvote, vote: Postie

No.

I'm going to hard no sir a postie lynch today.

Same.

Yeah ok.
VOTE: Tchill
My guess going into Night One is Tchill CES AD. Gamma has done a few things that do me a concern but overall is still probably town.
(although AD's "I doubt Chess would give a different read on Eddie" gives me a reservation there, so probably just CES next if Tchillscum)

Let's let Tchill say something before hammer, maybe he's just waiting for his moment to obvtown, but I don't see a better lynch for today.

I don't see scum in AD. More like AD being wrong.

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

No.

Sup Ranmaru.

I can't begin to express how happy I am that you are not vonflare.

Thanks. Nothing much. Nice to meet you.

Spoiler: Reads

Ranmaru

TSQ - Good presence in thread, most active and scumhunting.

POSTIE - Consistent scumhunting since early game, even though some of it is misguided, it is also what I have experienced with town postie.

Gamma - I like his recent contributions to the thread. His frustration seems normal to me. As scum he loses interest and doesn't put that much effort into cases, he kind of lurks until he's wagoned for not doing anything at all, and then makes excuses. He also has good tone here.

Llamarbles - I like his presence as well, although not not as present as TSQ. Yet it compliments him and I can agree to some of his reads. Hey look see Llama, that last game we played in years ago was a fluke.

Lycan - I liked his analysis on CES, and his reads. I only really like his push on CES, though.

NSG - I like her persistence in questioning CES on his scumreads, and I liked her early game response to Llama, it would be similar to what I would have done.
Dunnstrals - I like that he is getting into the game at this point. Don't know why he was less present in early game.
AD - I kind of need a vote from AD to get a better feel on him.

MARQUIS - null, I don't see scum intent but want a bit more from him
WSGEURTS - null not even here
EDDIE - null but can see what postie is saying, just doesn't stick out to me as much as T L C. Don't want no scrubs.

Tchill - Seems to post in thread for the appearance of being present, without any solid analysis. Weird vote on WGEURTZ and weird apology, which signifies guilt. Avoiding the game while playing others, and gives no indication of why.

CES - Lacks presence. Isn't scumhunting in early to mid day. Most recent votes are bad. Trying hard to avoid Tchill wagon, doesn't comment on the fact Tchill is avoiding the thread pretty hard.

LQ - Scum for omgusing Shea, and developing a read on him without being proactive. Instead he was being reactive, and isn't trying to sort him. He also misses important questions and does not try to answer them. His votes don't make sense.

[LQ > CES > Tchill > Eddie]

Vote: LQ

Why do I feel weird about the fact that you have the same Scum reads as most people? I mean, you were a replacement. Usually replacements see things in a different light.

I reread LQ. Saw a few things I didn't like. Saw thinga that seemed town too though. On balance I would still rather do a screenplay lynch today. I do need some help with the buddies if CES isn't one of them though.

[Srceenplay]

Also, I am really curious if you could share some of Chills notes that he gave on me, thanks.

Not mentioned in pt at all.

In all total he only has 3 or 4 sentences about this game.

And you are basing a SR on me based on 3 or 4 sentences taken from someone secondhand?

No. It’s off of the first 12 paged I read.

[Llamarble]

Oh I forgot I Q+ed all that stuff. First couple were scummy. Liked "already considered postie coaching." Didn't like inconsistent methhodologies thing. Liked some stuff I didn't q+

[Ranmaru]

Screenplay how far are you in your catch up? Any updated reads?

[Srceenplay]

I reread LQ. Saw a few things I didn't like. Saw thinga that seemed town too though. On balance I would still rather do a screenplay lynch today. I do need some help with the buddies if CES isn't one of them though.

Now you are starting piss me off.
You can’t quote some posts without commentary and say done.
And
There are no buddies. Think about that for a minute.

[Srceenplay]

Screenplay how far are you in your catch up? Any updated reads?

No.
I stopped at 12 and thought it would be more relevant to interact in real time. If you want me to go back and look at something I can. I already have one thing on my to do list.