Mini 1991: Taking Justice Into Our Own Hands (Town Win)

[Alexcellent]

Hi everyone. I've skimmed the thread, am busyish right now but will post more later.

In the meantime I want to join in on this VOTE: Lexa

[Alexcellent]

I'm getting caught up now everyone, apologies for the lack of posting!

[Alexcellent]

So my thoughts on the whole Lexa thing -

She likes Awoo's case on numberQ, votes for numberQ, but then shortly after abandons that endeavour in a kneejerk reaction to Mumble's vote? When I was initially skimming, I figured dropping a vote on Lexa right after Mumble would be good for a laugh and to see how she reacts to more pressure. Don't really like the 1v1 between Mumble and Lexa. I don't understand the anger there on Lexa's part, but then I don't really have any meta to go on with her. Maybe worth checking out some of her old games. But I don't like 123, trying to dismiss pressure I generally find to come from scum more than town IMO. And I don't like the 163 jump from Mumble to me. As Awoo mentioned it does appear like Lexa comes across as being cornered into that vote. I don't really like leaving Mumble with the reason that scum wouldn't be so obtuse. Sounds like a phony excuse to get out of a vote that you regret. And moving to someone that's basically inactive doesn't seem to serve much purpose.

I just dislike that Lexa appears to have viewed the most scummy thing in the game to that point as being a few empty votes and it makes me think she had no real reads or nothing to gon before. Granted its early still but I felt more relevant things happened than Mumble and I voting her. And the way she reacted to the votes is pretty bad. I'm keen to see how she responds to her wagon though.

I feel like Mumble vs Lexa is TvS, so the current wagons are interesting.

[Alexcellent]

How is not giving someone a chance to claim playing to your win condition, if you're town?

Long story short.

The early Day 1 claim from threat of quick hammer isn’t very trustworthy anyway.

And I HATE seeing PRs outed on Day 1. So I prefer this method very early on.

It’s controversial, I understand that. But it’s my preferred approach to Day 1.

Is killing a PR D1 better than outing a PR D1? (just wondering)

[Alexcellent]

Just a few other things

I don't hate the numberQ case. And in particular 54 struck me as off.

Everyone who was or is on Havo's wagon: why were you or are you on Havo's wagon? None of those votes looked random, so why'd you do it? I'm on it because I wanted to form a wagon so I could ask questions like this.

When you answer why you're on a wagon before anyone's asked you why you are on said wagon, it makes me think that you feel like there's something wrong about being on that wagon, and hence need to pre-emptively give an explanation for it. I just got a very guilty and self conscious vibe from this.
So, maybs scum in numberQ

[Alexcellent]

What's everyone's thoughts on Luca Blight?

Apart from being a pretty good villain in Suikoden 2.

Null at the moment, don't have enough to go on

[Alexcellent]

getting townie feelings from awoo, havo and cedrick. I think Mumble is probs town based on the 1v1 with Lexa feeling like TvS, and I think Lexa is the scum in that interaction.

scummy feelings from Lexa and Q.

Still looking into others.

[Alexcellent]

A lot of it is gut based on Lexa's reactions and like she's immediately trying to kill Mumble's vote's credibility. I guess frustrated town could react in that way, but I feel it's more of a scumtell. That and the fact that I just don't view Mumble's vote on her as being strong enough cause to drop everything and go after unless she's just posing as town, doesn't have a town motivated reason to be on the numberQ wagon or scumhunt elsewhere and therefore aggressively reacts to the wagon on her.

[Alexcellent]

prod doge sorry, should be able to post later tonight

[Alexcellent]

I have a bunch of catching up to do, but I've skimmed the last few pages

Both claims suck and I don't really get them at all. I kind of bought Lexa's rage claim for some reason? I dunno
UNVOTE: Lexa for now. I still don't feel like Mumble's scum either though.

I'll have a load of time in the next day or two to do a proper read through and actually post for real.

[Alexcellent]

I think Eddie's town and I was probably wrong about numberQ. Really like his posts and reads.
Pretty decent town lean on fitz too.

The GNR wagon makes me uncomfortable, but 626 does suck, and his inability to produce any sort of reads to Awoo earlier doesn't help. But then I'd think scum could at least post a few bullshit reads on the spot if they had to, so I don't know. A lot of the votes on him could probably apply to me too. I can see him being scum? But I'm on the fence.

[Alexcellent]

Kind of want to lynch Lexa still, but I think I'm on team "don't lynch PRs" for today.

I could see value in a Cedrick lynch though

[Alexcellent]

I also challenge the people who town read mumble to explain what he’s done that’s protown. Cause I don’t see anything in his iso.

He hasn't done anything protown, he hasn't done anything that I view as scummy either. Town read on him is gut and I can see his aggression being town aggression. To be fair I can see his play coming from both alignments. Except for his claim. His claim makes no sense from any alignment.

[Alexcellent]

Mumble info for those who don't know him

I've played with Mumble twice. Once me S v him T; I, to quote Transcend, dominated him. Second, I subbed due to other reasons (lol hi Havo you were one of the other reasons xd), he S v me T. I don't know if this is a rule for his meta, but I do know he lurked the FUCK out of that scum game and not as much as the town game. He wasn't a beacon of activity, but he posted what I'd call "sparsely" as town and essentially prodged as scum. And, as town, I remember fighitng him as scum was the most annoying shit ever because kinda like Fitz he kept throwing completely garbage arguments and acting like he'd made some god catch off a false positive. The thing is, he got EXTREMELY emotional and angry, and it was believable. I firmly believe off of a p e r s o n a l i t y a n a l y s i s that activity and emotion will sort Mumble accurately later on, so he's off the table for now for me. This is also because I townread him so far; the comments about him I've seen ITG are best demonstrated by Zito's "a bunch of snark". IIRC, and havo or mumble (lol) can correct me if I'm remembering wrong, he did not have that same type of snark as scum at /all/. I think his dickishness and Lexa interactions are pretty likely town. At the very least, everyone voting him can fuck right off for now unless you explain why he's scum and not bad.

so ? ^

so what? your post means nothing to me. I am not really a fan of meta personally and I certainly can't trust meta reads of people who I think could be scum

I find this weird. "Not a fan of meta personally" but 62 - one of Cedrick's first posts in the game - is digging up another player's meta.
Just find this post to be a bit too dismissive.

[Alexcellent]

It's sort of meta right. I mean you were investigating another player's games to check for consistency with this game yeah?

[Alexcellent]

Yeah soz PZ VOTE: Cedrick
Cedrick's ISO is a mixed bag, but given his hard defense of Lexa I think his flip will be pretty informative. And the GNR wagon just feels a little too... convenient at the moment?

VOTE: guy_named_riggs hi )

Awoo, you seemed pretty keen on Eddie's slot dying, why the change to GNR?

[Alexcellent]

Sorry all, im around, dont mean to keep neglecting this game
At work at the moment but free to post after that

[Alexcellent]

i heard i think on the wiki or sth its a good strategy to fake losing intrest in the game as scum, kinda scumreading myself for that reason.

ctrl-effing myself on pages 31-35

i changed to GNR 'cause he failed my test which was

"prove to me that you have been playing the game"

and everyone thinks my case is bad i feel targeted harrased and bullied im going to tell the teacher on you and maybe push him when he stops hyperposting (never) or tomorrow or sth. iso is so big and im so small; praying that no cops implies the existence of a vig and one of us wont wake up tomorrow

Is playing the game alignment indicative though?

[Alexcellent]

@Luca, can I get some reads from you?

Tons of questions and stuff in your ISO appears townie but I'm having a hard time figuring you out

[Alexcellent]

Going for the easy way out and hoping a lurker slot flips scum

Nice

Yah I'm liking this. Think that's why the GNR wagon made me uncomfortable.

[Alexcellent]

1110

Anyone disagree with this

If there's a fake claim between Mumbles and Lexa, it's Lexa. I CAN see potential scum motivation. Scum!Lexa sees Mumble suddenly claim doc, and pre-emptively claims to avoid the potential of anyone from Mumble's wagon changing to her. Lots of talk of quickhammers this game as well, so maybe she felt threatened that she may get quicklynched following Mumble's claim. I can see that kneejerk reaction coming from town though too... but it hurts town more than scum? So more than likely comes from scum?

And yeah. The immediate dismissal of the idea that Mumble's doc claim can't be true followed by the wall either means they're town super hard tunnelling Mumble or scum.

The 826 change to GNR feels opportunistic as well.

So I dunno, I don't disagree, Lexa's probs scum. Need to think about it though.

[Alexcellent]

@Fissure, what do you think of Cedrick defending Lexa?

[Alexcellent]

@Luca, with Fissure's replacement, do you find their slot more scummy, less scummy or about the same?

[Alexcellent]

Happy birthday!

[Alexcellent]

I'm not keen on a fissure lynch, I think that slots town.

Why awoo or nsg? I probably need to look further into them, but had gut town leans there for the most part.

I'm mixed on Lexa, can defs see the scum but not confident enough to want to lynch a Pr D1. Im thinking maybe that claim needs to be revisited tomorrow?

I need to do some mulling

[Alexcellent]

I kind of want to revisit this based on yesterday's Lexa defending

VOTE: Cedrick

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: awoo

thinking awoo has a good chance to be scum here, i noticed some weird dancing around the lexa wagon from him early game and i'd like to examine that again.

side note – will this finally be a normal game where town is the one that stomps scum?

Eh actually I change my mind for now, I'll sheep this. VOTE: Awoo
I can definitely see the dancing around that Lexa wagon and the GNR/Fissure vote still reeks to me. Still okay with a Cedrick wagon though. Both avoided Lexa, both voted Fissure (who I'm like pretty damn sure is town), both voted Mumble at one point or another. Both seem like a pretty good start for today.

[Alexcellent]

I'm like, somewhere here today

{Fissure; RB; Eddie Cane; HavingFitz}
{Luca Blight; NSG; Papa Zito}
{Cedrick; Awoo; Havo}

[Alexcellent]

So looking at that wagon on Lexa at the end of day, pretty good town read on most of the people on it. But these points stand out to me:

You and me both. Your iso is pretty empty though and we're most of the way through the day, who have you found for your town reads?

It hasn’t been easy. I haven’t played with most of this list, usually by now I have a few decent TRs.

Right now I’m -

Town - PapaZ, Eddie
Lean town - Luca, RB, Fitz, Lexa
Null - NSG, Ced, Awoo,
Lean scum - GNR, mumble, Alex

VOTE: lexa

But I’m willing to get on the Mumble/Mulch scumhunting train.

The flip will answer a few questions

I want to see specifically if Mulch is right here.

This feels like maybe a last minute bus vote, considering Havo's townlean on Lexa for most of the day and all.

Alex, I've already talked a fair bit about Awoo. NSG is more of a gut feeling - I liked her opening but I've felt nothing from her recent posts.

I'm willing to give Mulch a pass for today to give him a fair chance.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lexa

I can see this flipping red.

I've become very confident Zito is Town based on his recent posts - his thought process is pretty much the same as mine.

The only thing that's kept me from voting Mumble has been the fact he seemed fairly assured with his claim (he could always be Mafia Doctor though, which would explain this) and the fact Cane, who I'm town leaning, meta defends him while meta attacking Lexa. However, Cane says Mumble essentially prodges as scum, and apart from his argument with Lexa that is what he's essentially done this game.

I don't trust Fissure's urgency to have Lexa lynched at all - I hoped cutting him some lack would give him a chance to calm down and lay out his thoughts properly, but I was wrong so I'm back here again.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Fissure

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lexa

L-1

Also the above votes and unvotes from Luca irk me. The 1205 unvote and re-vote onto Fissure comes after PZ unvotes Lexa. So, scum!Luca sees a chance to change wagons and avoid lynching his scum buddy? Then the L-1 Lexa vote in 1239 comes right after Havo's vote. So I dunno. Luca was scum reading Lexa but that shuffle in votes rubs me the wrong way like potential scum trying to find a way out of lynching fellow scum?

PEDIT: @NSG - I agree with a lot of his posts and reads, I read him as town in his interactions with Cedrick and if he's scum then he hard bused Lexa like all day long.

[Alexcellent]

You don't have a leg to stand on there, Alex - if I don't switch the momentum back to Lexa in 1158 then I'm pretty sure Lexa doesn't get lynched; she was under hardly any pressure at the time, and most people agreed with leaving the pr claims for D1. You yourself had an hour before said she should be '

revisited tomorrow

' in 1153 which reflects worse on you than any of this does on me.

My L-1 vote came because Mumble's final posts actually seemed seemed pretty town (bad town, but town).

This seems a bit defensive.

Hardly any pressure? So all the other votes on her wagon were just there for decoration until your vote came along and applied the real pressure?
How many people agreed leaving the PRs? I think there was me, Cedrick, who else? (genuine question, I remember people saying it but I can't remember who exactly)

And convenient that you didn't at all mention you finding Mumble's final posts to be pretty town until now, after he's flipped town.

[Alexcellent]

The vote count was this:

Fissure (4): Luca Blight, Awoo, Lexa, Cedrick
Cedrick (4): rb, Alexcellent, Papa Zito, Mumble
Lexa (2): havingfitz, Fissure

Fitz wasn't applying any pressure, the only pressure came from Fissure who had zero credibility and was himself fighting off being lynched.

Most people seemed content to leave the pr's; hence all the unvoting following the claims.

Why is that convenient?

When you re-voted her, the vote count was this:

Official Vote Count 1-20

Lexa

(4): havingfitz, Fissure, Mumble, rb

Fissure

(4): Lexa, Cedrick, Luca Blight, Awoo

Cedrick

(1): Alexcellent

Not Voting

(4): Eddie Cane, northsidegal, Havo, Papa Zito

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2018-02-23 09:00:00)

Previous Vote Count

+ Havo's vote right before yours.

You were the sixth vote on the wagon, hence the L-1.

I think we've gotten our wires crossed. I'm less suspect of your initial Lexa vote and more suspect of your L-1 vote of her. In a vacuum I think your 1158 is probably fine, but in conjunction with your following shift to Fissure, then shift back to Lexa is what I find suspicious.

There were some but I'm not sure that I'd call it "most".

I just find it convenient that I guess you had something of a town read on Mumble towards the end of the day but you're only sharing it now in retrospect after his town flip.
Like it's probably nothing since at that point Lexa was almost definitely the lynchee, but I just find it to be convenient/interesting post flip for you to say that. I don't know if that makes you scum though.

[Alexcellent]

Maybe equal. I have to ISO NSG, I don't really have a solid read on her.

[Alexcellent]

Luca how do you feel about Havo's vote on Lexa?

[Alexcellent]

What makes the timing of his vote townie?

[Alexcellent]

I might as well just come out and say this now. I am a one-shot Gunsmith and last night I used my ability on Awoo and was told he does not have a gun.

Now either he is a Mafia Doctor, which appears unlikely given there was no vig kill, or a Traitor (which I guess is possible?) or he's Town. The reason I haven't been going for him today is because he simply has less chance of being scum based on this result.

Hmm UNVOTE: Awoo

Kinda changes my reads. I need to re-evaluate

[Alexcellent]

I dunno if I'd be sold on an rb lynch, although I don't know why. Gut keeps telling me he's town but I have no good solid reason to back up that read.
I'm gonna take a nap and go through D1 again later.

[Alexcellent]

Coolio VOTE: Eddie Cane

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: fissure <-- last mafia

haha i stayed up until the flip

luca is conftown for clearing me up
fitz is conftown for literally killing both the mafias

havo i expect you to claim 1-shot vig that killed cedrick today, whoever shot should probably claim it 'cause im assuming you're 1shot like everything else in the game

that leaves only

Why Fissure?

[Alexcellent]

Pretty much everyone that isn't fitz or luca blight is in the lynchpool for me today. Awoo's not fully cleared, I agree that a mafia doc makes sense in this setup.

I'm probably more inclined to lynch somewhere in PZ/RB/Havo though.

And yeah I think the vig should claim but probably only if they're a 1-shot

[Alexcellent]

'cause he replaced into GNR which was scum. Eddie tricked me with that and why should I let it happen again?

I thought he was also only being townread/unvoted after something eddie said but that wasn't true. (thought I remembered eddie saying something like mulch towned his slot up)

Alex: top lynch today: name it, and why am I not in your lynch pool? Im not clear but im more town then pz/rb/havo?

GNR was a mildly scummy lurksack at best but I think he was just disinterested town probably? I still don't see this obvscum slot that others seem to be seeing here.

Top lynch: probably Havo but I need to think about it and am waiting for others to show up and a potential vig claim

You're like right on the edge of the lynch pool. I think Luca's result on you helps slightly but doesn't fully clear you. I think I'm somewhere like here right now:

{HavingFitz; Luca Blight} = won't lynch
{Fissure; Awoo} = probably won't lynch
{Havo; Papa Zito; RB} = fine with lynch


^subject to change

[Alexcellent]

yah im not sure mass claim is necessary. vig claim is probs enough to narrow things down

[Alexcellent]

I probably won't be around for 24 hours or so, just a heads up

[Alexcellent]

I think I'm overthinking this game. My thing with Havo is that 1238 hit me as being a really weird vote based on them having a town read on Lexa most of the day and it seems like it could be a bus? Buuuut they could have just as easily joined the fissure wagon which did have equal votes at the time. But then I could see scum motivation for not wanting to be on that wagon either? So really I think I've just overthought everything and Havo might not be my "top lynch" for today. I wouldn't mind seeing other people's thoughts on that vote though.

But I dunno. PZ probably makes sense as scum. 1181 looks really bad in retrospect.

Probably leaning more towards a PZ lynch I guess VOTE: Papa Zito

[Alexcellent]

I think the thing with RB as well is that 1218 is an unnecessary bus IMO if he's scum. Similar to how I view Havo's vote on Lexa from D1. Like could be a bus? But also not super necessary and I think he easily could have voted elsewhere.
And PZ bailing on Lexa wagon seems more dodgy looking back.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah I'm not sure I see scum making an unprovoked Gunsmith claim out of nowhere like that

[Alexcellent]

Is there such a thing as a Mafia Gunsmith? Is that a thing?

[Alexcellent]

Only reason I could see would be for Vigs, but yeah agreed it seems unlikely. Just wasn't sure if that's a thing.

[Alexcellent]

I wanna lynch zito, time to claim dude

i will hammer any claimed slot in

{maki havo fissure}

Not zito?

[Alexcellent]

Going to give this another read tomorrow and wait for more from Maki

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Maki

[Alexcellent]

Good game and well played all!