Micro 768: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless - Game Over

[insanity018]

Hi everyone, it's my first game in about 2 years!

VOTE: Aristophanes

Only person I think I've played with before.

[insanity018]

UNVOTE:

I don't think Jingle's VT claim is alignment indicative. In this setup, what else could he possibly have complained?

But I really don't like this post. It's prefaced as 'serious votes time' but the reasoning doesn't really make much sense.

Serious votes time.

VOTE: Korts

Assuming I’m right there, reck is probably town. I don’t see two scum jumping so blatantly for such an obvious piece of bait. I do find Korts’ line of questioning incredibly superficial, to the point where it overshadows recks lack of RVS vote.

If it's such an obvious piece of bait, why do you assume that any scum would have jumped on it in the first place?

Is it bad to have 'superficial questioning' when not many others questions have been asked in the game yet?

Also, what is bad about Reck not voting during RVS?

[insanity018]

That said, Reck's 13 also looked pretty tongue in cheek to me so Korts's follow on was unexpected and felt out of place.

I see Korts's post(s) as similarly tongue in cheek. Why do you think that Korts sounds more out of place than Reck?

I like Jingle's posting so far – he's getting the game moving.

VOTE: Keychain
Why no vote?

In what ways has Jingle got the game moving? I see Jingle making 1 RVS post, 1 discussion-ny post and 1 'serious vote' with dubious reasoning.

Why is it scummy to not be voting atm?

[insanity018]

I am liking Reck for town at the moment. Townlean on Aristophanes as well.

In particular, I feel that Reck's 20 has genuine intent to probe at Keychain's play.

[insanity018]

It's not a question of what's good or bad, but what is scummy, and superficial questioning is scummy.

I definitely agree that superficial questioning is generally scummy. But to me, timing and context is relevant. I don't see superficial questioning when the game is barely out of RVS stage (which is where Korts's posts were) to be particularly alignment indicative.

Speaking of superficiality, I think that CultofAthena's posts are the most scummy atm.

You asked earlier is it bad to have superficial questioning early on, so I ask you is it bad to have dubious reasoning early on?

What I find bad is that Jingle starts his post by saying 'serious votes time' and then follows up with a vote based on reasons that are dubious at best. Saying 'serious votes time' feels like he's trying to signal 'look, I'm being serious! I'm scumhunting!' but the scumhunting and reasoning isn't actually there.

--

My slight townread on Aristophanes comes here

I honestly keep going back to Jingle's VT claim and feeling uneasy about it! It just feels wrong. Their play otherwise is alright so far but nothing stellar.

I like Reck and Korts thus far!

Athena, why is getting a game moving towny, and how do you think he is doing so? I don't see as much forward movement as you seem to in their posts

.

This is exactly what I was thinking and I liked the intent to challenge players from Aristophanes.

[insanity018]

VOTE: CultofAthena

I think she is scum. Her posts may seem lengthy but their content is extremely superficial.

Athena asks questions. But they are very empty questions, they don't have any heat or intent behind them and she doesn't lend any of her own opinions.

Also, Luca may be scum.

Mind explaining this?

I am liking Reck for town at the moment. Townlean on Aristophanes as well.

Why do you think Aristo is town?

And then are these -

Athena, why is getting a game moving towny, and how do you think he is doing so? I don't see as much forward movement as you seem to in their posts.

Well, to be pedantic for a moment I never called it towny – I said I liked it. Perhaps especially under geriatric rules, it would be easy to just let the game stagnate, or to just wait until something else pops up for you to respond to rather than starting something yourself. To already be getting into the game on page one is something I enjoy.

You says you like something, but then you sat it's not alignment indicative The aim of the Town is to find scum, not find the most enjoyable player. So, basically Athena is posting 'opinions' while managing to not commit to a town or scum read either way. Alternately, she could be backtracking because she's seen that people (eg me and Aristophanes) don't agree with her reasoning.

Luca, while he is putting things in my mouth, is largely correct. As an explanation to the reck is probably town bit, the associative there is not that both of them are voting for me. The associative is that Korts appears to be piling on in direct response to reck voting for me. Especially given daytalk, there is absolutely no reason for Korts scum to tie himself to reck scum that early over such a trivial thing. If either of them flips scum, it's a fairly safe bet at this point in the game that the other is town, more so than anyone else in the game.

This is weak. If anything, this would be the time in the game where scum might associate themselves the closest, given the volativity of wagons and the ease of dissociating yourself from your partner in choosing which early game wagon to follow. A shift in opinion at this stage in the game is to be expected, meaning scum could easily partner up now only to shift away later – a large shift in opinion later in the game would be subject to far more scrutiny.

Meaningless discussion about Mafia theory that doesn't contribute anything to solving the game. Athena doesn't even try to make an argument as to whether Korts or Reck are scum and whether they fit into her theory.

[insanity018]

Well, you're a bit defensive.

How do these not have intent behind them? I'm trying to get people to reveal their thought processes – trying to get a feel for if what they're saying makes sense or not, feels forced or not, et cetera.

I say that you have no intent because you're only asking players to clarify themselves. You're not challenging anyone or putting pressure on. You are also not sharing any of your thought processes. Compare -
You: "Mind explaining why Luca may be scum?"
Intent: "I don't have any problems with Luca's posts. His posts all sound genuine. Can you explain why Luca is scum?"

You ask empty questions where you avoid challenging anyone too hard, because that might put attention back onto you. That's what I mean by lack of intent.

Even though I start the game without posting a lot of reads, I assure you I'm still attempting to figure the game out. If you'd like a read, however, I think you're probably town for this – in my limited experience scum seem happy to leave me be more often than town, and your push seems entirely genuine.

This reads to me as "Oh no, insanity is scumreading me. Reads will make insanity happier. Let's give insanity a townread."

[insanity018]

Meaningless discussion about Mafia theory that doesn't contribute anything to solving the game. Athena doesn't even try to make an argument as to whether Korts or Reck are scum and whether they fit into her theory.

It does contribute something towards solving the game – I think that anyone going off of what Jingle said would be lead to false conclusions, so I pointed that out. What I was saying wasn't even mainly about Korts and Reck, it was about Jingle. I'm mainly looking to see how Jingle responds. If, for example, he continues to push his point and his reasoning doesn't feel genuine, that begs further questions about his motivations and why he might be pushing that narrative. If he responds and his thought process feels genuine, that indicates to me that he's probably town, even if I disagree with what he's saying – that kind of examinating of the game seems more likely to come from town than to be fabricated by scum, to me.

@CultofAthena

, so Jingle's made quite a lengthy post in response to your theory questions in 40. You made a lengthy post in 51 where you didn't follow up at all. So, do you think Jingle's thought process is town or scum?

--

@RayFrost

Luca's posting involves a lot of putting words into other people's mouths and doesn't feel like a lot of words coming out of his own mouth and this is questionable and worthy of suspicion.

I haven't had this impression at all. Were there any specific posts that made you feel this way?

[insanity018]

I'm not loving Korts's most recent posts. 44 and 46 feel very non-committal, just dropping in to answer questions and respond to people that are scumreading him.

Korts said that he would be returning soon with deeper thoughts soon so I'm interested whether he will say anything more.

[insanity018]

I'm still happy voting CultofAthena. I still don't see any scumhunting intent in her posts and not following up on questions that she said claimed would be useful for her to sort out town thought processes from scum isn't good.

I saw Reck describe Jingle's play as being 'theatrical'. I think that's a good way of summarising why I feel uncomfortable with his play.

Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording, I'll get back to that sometime later or forget and then get back to it when someone asks

The question came from me. Well, what were you meaning to say then?

I don't really get insanity's CoA case. I relate to CoA's 37 response more, and insanity calling it defensive is unfair considering she just made a case to be defended against. Then again,

Ray's support of the case in 41 indicates either that there's something to it

,

or a potential Ray-insanity connection

That's two polar opposites

I don't really understand your Luca Blight case. Your 59 summarises all of his posts. But, what exactly are you finding scummy about them?

[insanity018]

@Mod - in case this has been missed, the votecount at 47 is still incorrect. I voted CultofAthena in 36

@CultofAthena

, I noticed that you are still voting Keychain. You first voted Keychain not because you thought they were scum but because you wanted to pressure them into responding (29). Has this changed into a scumread? Given that Keychain has been absent from the thread regardless, is there anything else that's happened in the thread that you think worth pressuring?

Why does Korts as scum feel the need to fabricate something just to scumread you?

This is a horrible question. Isn't the entire point of this game that town are genuinely trying to scumhunt and scum are faking it?

[insanity018]

@Jingle

Your post above was mostly about your suspicions for Keychain and Luca Blight. So, why are you voting for RayFrost?

Key is clearly dancing around a scumread on me, but isn't doing anything to further said read or put pressure on me. I'll go back and double check, but assuming she knows I like to be put to L-1 early and often as both alignments, the reasoning for that is spotty.

Have you played with Keychain before for her to know this? Assuming she does know this, wouldn't Keychain!scum have been more likely to put you at L-1 for easy towncred?

--

@Korts

You have conveniently failed to address the biggest indicator: undermining my questions. My reading of everything else comes from that.

Can you point which posts in particular you think Luca has done this?

Spoiler: Is this the type of stuff you are referring to?

Sigh. Jingle, if you're going to play the look-at-me-I'm-scum-but-scum-wouldn't-say-that reaction test game, let people weigh in and allow the situation to develop before you jump in with your grand analysis.

"Superficial" questioning, really? What exactly were you expecting in response? I asked you to confirm that yes, you are claiming a scumtell on yourself, which you did, and now you're shocked that your wagon took off. Pull your head out of yourself, dude.

By the way - if Reck's "probably town," why mention his lack of RVS vote? What does that indicate, exactly?

Bolded

- this is a good point.

Italics

- Your questioning was pointless as I stated above.

Underlined

- The fact I could answer this myself means this is probably another pointless question.

To me, it feels more like a reason why he thinks your question was superficial as opposed to undermining the question itself.

--

I'm going to continue to be a wee bit scarce until the holiday period is done, sorry about that

I'll be around later today.

Keychain

, I get that it's the holiday period but I would like to see more of your thoughts on the game. Apart from Athena, do you have any town or scum reads?

[insanity018]

Happy New Year everyone!

I liked the tone of Keychain's 84, but that could be because she's agreeing with me. I thought she made a very interesting comment about Jingle in 85, "Mostly what I find kind of funny is that you're so upset about me "dancing around" a scumread on you without sealing it with a vote but you're equally dancing around one on me."

Spoiler: Non game-related thing I just realised about Keychain

I didn't realise that Aotearoa is New Zealand!

@Jingle Your post above was mostly about your suspicions for Keychain and Luca Blight

and Korts

. So, why are you voting for RayFrost?

Bolded mine.

The point still stands. You have spent most of your time talking about Keychain, Luca Blight and Korts. You have since called Aristophanes caught scum in 89

So, why are you voting RayFrost? From what I can see, you have only talked about Ray for meta reasons and to ask him a question in 58

xRECKONERx

[10 Posts] (1) -

Aristophanes

Ari, I was liking you before but what are you doing?

Why are you vote-parking an RVS vote on Reck when you have stated that you read him as strong town?

[insanity018]

There's not much happening except Jingle being obstructive. I hope people will be coming back from New Year's holidays soon.

@Korts, thanks for explaining the Luca posts more.

Do I actually syill havs a Reck vote ? Lmfao
UNVOTE:

I like you insanity. Jingle feels like scum pushing a narratinmve tbh.

I dont lime their conclusions. They feel xoncenuevt.

Why aren't you voting Jingle then?

Also, what do you think of CultofAthena?

[insanity018]

I think Jingle makes a fair point in 103 that Ari is waffling quite a bit and has been poking at Jingle without voting for him. I'm still trying to get my head around the meta-related case though.

--

@Ari

Do I actually syill havs a Reck vote ? Lmfao
UNVOTE:

I like you insanity. Jingle feels like scum pushing a narratinmve tbh.

I dont lime their conclusions. They feel xoncenuevt.

Why aren't you voting Jingle then?

[insanity018]

I thought it felt off but I don't feel it strong enough to warrant a vote. Apparently I'm vote-shy this game.

Is there anyone you do feel strongly about then? What's your thoughts on CultofAthena (now getting replaced?)

[insanity018]

My scumread of CultofAthena is less to do with empty reads, but with emptiness of her questions, particularly earlier in the game. Questions such as "Mind explaining this?" (30) and "Why do you think Aristo is town?" (29) feel like empty pokes - Asking questions, but without genuinely applying any pressure, which is easy for scum to hide behind. I will agree that some of CultofAthena's questioning got a bit better in later posts, but there is nothing from her that changes my scumread.

As I noted in 36, many of CultofAthena's original thoughts seemed to be attacking Jingle's understanding of mafia game theory. Again, focusing a lot on discussion theory is very easy for scum to hide behind and use to fake content. However, Athena insists in 37 that discussing mafia theory would be useful for solving the game and allowing her to formulate a scum or townread of Jingle. Given this, Athena's failure to follow up is inconsistent and shows that she wasn't intending to use the theory discussion to form reads after all.

CultofAthena continuously assures us that despite her flimsy questioning that she is trying to solve the game and form reads. However, re-reading her ISO, it incredibly sparse of any type of read. The only examples I can find is Athena throwing a townread at me (37) and a very brief opinion that Rayfrost's comments on availability might be scum-motivated (51, 57).

Hopkirk replacing in and voting Aristophanes might be opportunistic, giving the timing that Jingle's just made a big case on why Aristophanes is confirmed scum and RayFrost's vote just above.

@Hopkirk

, I found it interesting that you're voting Ari but you haven't mentioned anything about Jingle's scumslip case. Do you have any thoughts on the case and does it have any impact on your read of Aristophanes?

[insanity018]

@Mod, can we please get a votecount?

I'm interested in what Jingle has to say now that RayFrost has posted.

I can support voting Aristophanes. I don't find Jingle's meta case particular compelling. However, Ari's recent waffling and reluctance to have a serious scumread or put down a serious vote is concerning.

What the hell is LAMIST? I've seen it used several times now and can't for the life of me figure out what it's supposed to stand for.

I had assumed this just meant very lame.

[insanity018]

VOTE: Aristophanes

Jingle, I like you more when you're being open, rather than when you are being more obscure and reaction testing. Previously, you have refused to answer questions about your scumread on RayFrost until Ray posted (eg 96). What were you looking to find (or not find) in Ray's posts?

However at the same time there's quite a few words in his posts such as 59 and 76 which appear to just be the game summarised. Summarising as content is easy to manufacture as scum, far easier than analysis, and in particular the large amount of notes in 76 do not seem to translate to a large amount of meat in the reads section, so the entire act of including the summary feels purposeless and for show.

What from his summary section do you think is not translating into the reads section?

, (post where Hopkirk says everything that CultofAthena did was because she's new)

Okay. I acknowledge that CultofAthena is a newer player. However, looking at her topics, she has played in a few games before so she's not completely new. And that does not change the fact that I don't see her doing anything that feels town.

I would like go back to your 120 and your scummier and townier reads. Aside from Aristophanes, your scumreads seem to come down mostly to people that you disagree with their reads. For example, me because I still scumread CultofAthena, Reck because he concludes opposite reads to you (especially his read on Ari). So, is there anything else in our play that concerns you or is it just because of the different reads? Why is disagreeing with you more likely to come from scum than from town?

[insanity018]

In regards to (scum)reads:
Ari: Not about scumreading my slot.
Korts: Nothing to do with voting my slot.
You: Largely about scumreading the slot since you seemed far too committed for the reasoning you were giving. Also seemed to be at the expense of other stuff. Trying to develop this read (as I said, that was all a first impression).
Reckoner: Don’t really follow his thought process. The read on CoA partially plays into it. Probably my weakest read due to lack of material though.

I didn't say that your scumreads are people who scumread your slot. But your scumreads are people that you disagree with.

Spoiler: Extracts from Hopkirk's 120

Insanity in 36/8 on Athena is a bad push. Reads as pushing an obvious newbie for typical newbie behaviour. Response in 52 after Athena responds is on a minor thing and trying to make conflict. Doesn’t read as a natural extension.

Still focused on a bad read

at the expense of anything useful.

Korts feels a bit calculated casual. Also at times (76 especially) feels uncaring towards developing reads. Commentary but with stances you could say I guess.

Don’t really like the reads either though.

Throughout I get a general sense of saying a lot but not doing a lot.

Reckoner in 55-

concludes opposite of me. Don’t like the Ari townread in particular.

What do you not follow about Reck's thought process?

Given scum have daytalk, I also don't really see why a self-hammer is a danger.

How would daytalk affect whether or not somebody self-hammers? I notice that Jingle's pointed out the same thing just above my post.

For example, he talks a lot about Jingle in his summary, but his read is apparently distilled down to "overdone but genuine". He doesn't really link it to all the things he noted such as Jingle's dislike of me not voting him, and the "playing coy" and "baiting" he mentions later in the summary. Despite what he says on Athena and her actions, his read is "I don't have a reliable read. Hoping that changes." I don't see what the point in including the summary is if it's not backing up the reads.

That is an interesting spot.

@Korts

, in 76, you mention, among other things, that you felt Jingle is playing 'in a very weird and unsettling way to me'. So, why do you later conclude in your reads summary that Jingle's intent seems genuine (or his purpose seemed genuine in 115)?

[insanity018]

Ari has been posting around the site, but still refuses to contribute anything here.

I lied ab9ut catching up. Drunk, but off tomorrow.

I'll do things then

Jingle, why do you rule out RayFrost being scum with ASP? True, Ray votes CultofAthena as an RVS early and then stays voting her, but I didn't feel that Ray was pressuring Athena much or genuinely trying to get her lynched.

[insanity018]

I still think the case on me is bull though.

How do you feel about the votes on you and the players who placed them? For reference that's RayFrost, Hopkirk, insanity and Korts. You've only really mentioned Jingle, but he's not even on your wagon, he's just pushing it.

Keychain, you have commented on Jingle's case but I can't see what your current read of Aristophanes is. What is your read of Aristophanes at the moment?

The post quoted was supposed to be spiilered and my response was to call the vote alright bus the case dumb.

Why do you think RayFrost's vote is alright if you think his case is dumb?

[insanity018]

I was spending time trying to articulate this better.

Aristophanes' posts are really uninspiring. He basically calls all the votes alright, but off in some way. There's no comment on whether some votes feel more off than others, or whether some are more likely to be scum-motivated.

I think that at least one of Hopkirk (CultofAthena) and RayFrost are likely to be scum.

My issues with CultofAthena were documented here. Since replacing in, the big issue I've had with Hopkirk is the way he has formed his reads. He scumreads me for scumreading CultofAthena 'at the expense of other stuff.' (120,138). But I haven't done that at all. I have talked about and engaged with plenty of other players. So, this suggests to me that Hopkirk is preoccupied with my scumread of his slot, at the expense of analysing anything else in my play or genuinely trying to work out of I am town-motivated or scum-motivated. The fact that many of his scumreads (at least in part) flow off the fact that they are townreading me, shows again that he is more interested in my scumread for his slot, than trying to look at people's actual actions and solve the game.

To me, RayFrost's posts have a flying-under-the-radar feel. It seems like his posts are very safe and non-controversial - feels like posting content, without trying too hard to engage with players in the game. I dislike that what I see as the most original comment he made was "Luca's posting involves a lot of putting words into other people's mouths and doesn't feel like a lot of words coming out of his own mouth and this is questionable and worthy of suspicion" (41). But after getting questioned on this statement, RayFrost backpedals, "Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording" (56) and then later just adopts Korts' argument (119).

[insanity018]

I'll be able to properly catch up and post over the weekend, response to one question I can respond to quickly:

Hopkirk, my lack of response to your posting was due to my choice to wait and see what further contributions you made to the thread before placing a judgment.

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

I have no idea who you scumread right now, and I don't like that in this scenario. As far as I can tell:
You like Jingles/Insanity/Reckoner, somewhat like Korts, haven’t mentioned RayFrost or ASP/Luca,
You also imply in one post that you dislike Keychain/CoA, but without making any attempt to push either of them or develop the read, despite it only coming in 48- and even there it’s agreeing with someone instead of mentioning either of them.

This should have been quoting Ari's post above, rather than RayFrost. I’m surprised/suspicious Insanity didn’t notice since she was the next post, and should have noticed given her suspicion of my slot.

What's there to notice?

The formatting is screwed up but - Ari's response to Ray's vote is in 172 which I have already commented on. Whatever response Ari made in response to you has been lost in his formatting issues. You are correct to observe that Ari has been really wishy washy on developing reads or pushing players. Something I have mentioned plenty of times 101 116 124

Also @Insanity: what are your thoughts in response to 156- that I made in part in response to your question? I’m kind of suspicious that you haven’t really mentioned me much since starting to vote Ari.

What I got out of your response is that you don't follow Reck's read of Jingle. I think I understand what he was getting at, but I accept that it might not have been very clearly expressed. I disagree that it's strange for Reck not to have voted CultofAthena at that time, since he was expressing suspicion of more than one person (including Jingle).

I have posted 4 times since voting Ari. You are mentioned in 2/4 posts.

[insanity018]

I'm too tired to post today. I will be here tomorrow.

[insanity018]

Keychain, you have commented on Jingle's case but I can't see what your current read of Aristophanes is. What is your read of Aristophanes at the moment?

I still find him town.

Jingle phrases it in a very condemning way but reading through Ari's ISO, I don't really see anything wrong with how he responded to the meta case. 88 is a reasonable response. He admits he got it wrong in 90, while iirc Jingle was using the lack of such a statement as part of his case. I might be wrong on that.

I can understand the thought pattern behind 91 and 93 - and he appears to be scumreading someone for using meta conclusions, which is a really odd tack to take as scum if the meta is true.

I find your response interesting because I disagree with many of your points.

Well, while Ari admits he is wrong in 90, straight afterwards in 91, he immediately goes back to his old position, "Like, I see where I selfmeta'd incorrectly (I guess my playstyle has evolved without me noticing) and I do believe it is dependant on the game and situation."

The thing is despite Ari hating Jingle's meta case and calling it dumb multiple times, he still doesn't express a scumread on Jingle. What do you make of the fact that Aristophanes doesn't vote for Jingle after getting rid of his RVS vote? I don't understand the thought pattern at all. Ari describes Jingle as 'scum pushing a narrative' and 'convenient' (93). But ultimately, Ari tries to placate(?) Jingle "I think you have a chance of actually scumhunting but my gut says yoy may be faking it" (95), before saying that Jingle feels off but not strong enough to warrant a vote (114). This doesn't feel like the thought pattern of town thinks scum is pushing a narrative on him at all.

The whole "oh no you're going to mislynch me " kind of argument gives me pause, but at the same time I think scum would be pretty loathe to let a partner go down on D1 so why would the game be so still if this were a scum lynch?

I'm not too worried about the timing. I think this wagon has formed quite slowly and there has been a fair amount of resistance, particularly at the start. (If Jingle is town and Ari town), I would have thought scum would have been more likely to jump onto a 'scumslip case'. There's also quite a few inactive slots, which is contributing to the game being still.

Also, what is your current read of Jingle?

[insanity018]

@Insanity: I don’t ‘scumread’ you. That’s too hard a term. I’m suspicious and working on sorting you. I’m most suspicious of Ari/Reckless right now. You seem like a less likely partner for either.

I don’t scumread people for townreading you. Why did you conclude that? If you’re talking about my Reckless comment, that’s about not following why he townread you, not

that

he townread you. Do you agree Reckless hasn’t followed up well on his Jingles read?

‘What's there to notice?’: It seemed a bit weird you didn’t pick up on it. Not bad weird though.
I was mistaken that you didn’t mention me much after voting Ari.

Well, I said that in part your scumreads on Korts and Reck are based on not liking their reads/conclusions 120 and clearly townreading me is one of those conclusions you don't like.

Thanks for clarifying the Reck comment. I don't have an issue with Reck's dealing with Jingle up until 71. I agree that he hasn't followed up well on it since then. That said, he has been quite absent from the thread since that time, so there's a lot that has happened that I would like to see him comment on.

Also, I still haven't figured out what you thought I should have noticed.

[insanity018]

Welcome to the game TheGoldenParadox.

I don't believe this hammer should happen yet. From my understanding of the game Ari looks too much like town for this nonsense, which looks slightly like a scum-piled wagon. I'm pretty sure we'll find scum currently on this wagon, because I'm not sure of Ari's guilt.
UNVOTE: Aristophanes
I'm ok with Korts, pretty townie posting from what I can see. Reck looks fine too.
Hopkirk is slightly leaning scum to me.
ASP is null: not enough posts to determine yet.
Jingle looks townie. I like their game progression.
That leaves Keychain.
I'm almost 100% sure scum is within Ari, Key, Hop.
Right now I prefer lynching hopkirk simply because they look more scummy. key+Hop is a viable scumteam.
VOTE: Hopkirk

There's quite a few inconsistencies here.

If you think Aristophanes is 'too much like town', why do you then conclude that you're '100% sure scum is within Ari, Key, Hop'?

What are you finding scummy about Hopkirk? Especially, why do you think he's more worth voting than Aristophanes?

If you believe that this is a scum-piled wagon, why 2/3 of your scumreads off the wagon?

[insanity018]

TheGoldenParadox feels like he's hedging his bets on Ari

But you're right in that it's really weird that he'd then make that comment in 93 about Jingle being scum but not acting on it. That suggests that the lack of retaliation I townread might be a deliberate choice.

Like despite voicing a scumread, he's not acting on it.

Is that what you mean regarding it not seeming like a town thought process or am I missing your point?

Pretty much the bolded, yes. Ari has not put a serious vote on anyone. The closest he has come to seriously scumreading someone is calling Jingle scum pushing a narrative or that his case his convenient. But, Ari still doesn't vote Jingle or really do anything that might be helpful to sorting Jingle. Really, Ari doesn't seem interested in sorting anyone or finding scum. This doesn't seem consistent with a town thought process to me.

Why do you see Aristophanes' thought process as coming from town?

I@Insanity: My dislike of those reads is largely like the first point- how they form the reads. It’s not that they have reads I disagree with, but that they have reads I disagree with that I don’t really buy the thought process for.
What I thought you should have noticed is a pretty minor point. You didn’t comment when I quoted the wrong post, despite it making the post look quite confusing. It seemed slightly odd you didn’t notice if you scumread me substantially- since you’d probably then be reading my posts more closely (and you made the post after it). I can see plenty of town reasons for not mentioning it, but I’d kind of like to know which one it was.

Okay, your posts just gave the impression that the reads themselves were part of the problem.

It just was pretty obvious to me that you had misquoted. Compared to trying to parse Aristophanes' misquotes and jumbled posts above yours, yours was easy to work out. Unless you're trying to make your posts confusing on purpose? And, screwing up formatting is not alignment indicative so I didn't think it was worth mentioning.

[insanity018]

@Mod, can we get a prod on xRECKONERx?

@Keychain, thanks for your response. I still disagree with you that those things make Ari more likely to be town. I notice that you're still voting CultofAthena/Hopkirk. Do you have any thoughts on Hopkirk's play since replacing into the slot?

[insanity018]

Dang

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

I think TheGoldenParadox's response to Ari's wagon reeks the most. The way he unvoted despite thinking that there is a 'very reasonable chance he's scum' feels like someone who wanted to get off a town off mislynch wagon, while leaving his options open. The fact that he doesn't give any reasons for why Hopkirk was apparently scummier excerpt for 'meta' is also not good.

I still dislike CultofAthena's play, but I am mostly happy with Hopkirk's play for now.

I'm looking forward to BlackVoid posting and also want to re-read Korts when I have time.

[insanity018]

I need to reread TGP/Ray's slot and the game as a whole at some point.

@Reckoner: What do you think about my thoughts on you from yesterday?

Still waiting on TGP to go over which games he's talking about. If he just meant the one we were in together, that's finished now.

Gest Idea
Dragon Hunters
Marked for Death #1

Why do these games make you think Hopkirk is scum here? Why did these games make you switch your vote to Hopkirk, when Aristophanes already had a large wagon and you believed Ari had a very reasonable chance of being scum?

CoA wasn't new enough to use it as an excuse. They had played several games already, so I don't think it's that telling and I think it undermines your argument.
My read is that CoA did a bunch of empty questioning, got pressure/flak for it, then replaced out under pressure.

Adding to this, CultofAthena also played in the recently finished other geriatric game (which makes her more experienced with this ruleset than the rest of us!)

Just wondering - what is your current read of Jingle? Are you still scumreading him from the start of Day 1?

[insanity018]

I will be here after I get home later tonight.

[insanity018]

<snip>

@Insanity: I don’t ‘scumread’ you. That’s too hard a term. I’m suspicious and working on sorting you. I’m most suspicious of Ari/Reckless right now. You seem like a less likely partner for either.

Backing off when confronted seems like he's avoiding conflict with you, and the later picking over whether you'd noticed his formatting was broken feels like kind of a weak attempt to find something to poke at which was easily resolved.

Hmm

I agree that Hopkirk seemed to be focusing on scumreads on him and the formatting thing was weird. I didn't get the sense he was trying to avoid conflict there though, I might have to read that again. But, I think TheGoldenParadox is scum here and they look unlikely to be on a team together.

Reread Rayfrost and I still like him. TGP has a lot of odd phrasing and perspectives, but I can see that being newb-town. This is partially meta based since I just finished a game where the only scum was his top townread. Want to get more from him on what I’ve asked though since I don’t understand the point he’s trying to make with the meta stuff- or rather why he’s trying to make a point there.

What do you make of the timing? The fact TheGoldenParadox used his vague, unexplained meta points to jump off Ari's wagon.

I could be convinced to wagon anyone outside of {me, reck, insanity, hiplop) at this point, btw.

Maaaaybe replace Hopkirk with Keychain and that's where I'm at.

[insanity018]

...

You haven't even answered the main question TheGoldenParadox.

Still waiting on TGP to go over which games he's talking about. If he just meant the one we were in together, that's finished now.

Gest Idea
Dragon Hunters
Marked for Death #1

Why do these games make you think Hopkirk is scum here? Why did these games make you switch your vote to Hopkirk, when Aristophanes already had a large wagon and you believed Ari had a very reasonable chance of being scum?

[insanity018]

Why do these games make you think Hopkirk is scum here?

Why did these games make you switch your vote to Hopkirk, when Aristophanes already had a large wagon and you believed Ari had a very reasonable chance of being scum?

B/C his meta here shows that his behavior as town is very different from his behavior here.

What exactly is different? Also, the second part of the question is bolded.

If you were willing to scroll back to look at a larger timeframe of Hopkirk's town games, why haven't you also decided to look at a scumgame?

[insanity018]

I have been in games where the 'obvious' 'too scummy to be scum' really was scum. Nothing that TGP is saying makes sense from a town point of view.

VOTE: Korts

Been feelin' like I'm being blinded by how much I love Korts and I think his recent attack on Hopkirk was weak. And he knew it was weak. It was for show, not for real.

What made you think it was not real?

I agree that the Korts push on Hopkirk was weak, as it's hard to see scum intentionally lying about something that could so easily be verified. But reacting to thinking you had caught someone in a lie and then going back after getting an explanation also seems somewhat reasonable.

[insanity018]

I'm here. Sorry for lack of posting. I don't know why I wasn't prodded before replacement. The mod seems aware of how prods work given he posted it in the OP. Will be catching up today since I have free time.

Okay, you're clearly following the thread.

Do you have any thoughts on the game? It doesn't have to be a really long catch-up post if you don't have time for that.

[insanity018]

I'm here. Sorry for lack of posting. I don't know why I wasn't prodded before replacement. The mod seems aware of how prods work given he posted it in the OP. Will be catching up today since I have free time.

Okay, you're clearly following the thread.

Do you have any thoughts on the game? It doesn't have to be a really long catch-up post if you don't have time for that.

VOTE: BlackVoid

Where are you?

[insanity018]

...

Seriously?

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

VOTE: BlackVoid

Where are you?

Why?

Because there's a slot that is following the game that's refusing to post.

I agree that the Korts push on Hopkirk was weak, as it's hard to see scum intentionally lying about something that could so easily be verified. But reacting to thinking you had caught someone in a lie and then going back after getting an explanation also seems somewhat reasonable.

Korts push seems surface-level, but that doesn't have to be a scum maneuver.

Thank you for essentially re-stating my point using different words.

Are you going to tell us what meta reasons you have for why Hopkirk is scum?

[insanity018]

I don't believe that TheGoldenParadox could have thought that was the hammer. There's Jingle and Hopkirk's just above which are talking about a future hammer.

I would be happy for him to be hammered.

[insanity018]

I am going to do a reread and/or look at ISOs over the weekend.

Playing around a bit with coloured spreadsheets, and I could (physically) see Korts/Void/Key.

This was posted before the mod posted the flip. Did you no longer see TheGoldenParadox as scum?

[insanity018]

I don't have time to do a post by post ISO. But this is what I found noteworthy when reviewing everyone's ISOs considering flips and recent events. I ran out of time to do Korts and BlackVoid (thought the latter shouldn't take too long )

Jingle

Jingle's Day 1 is full of times where he doesn't explain himself properly. For example, in 69, he Has 2 townreads, 3 strong scumreads and 2 scumleans, but doesn't want to talk about who they are. Jingle votes for RayFrost in 69 without explanation, and keeps the vote there even after finding meta that means Ari is caught scum 87, 89 I ask on several times why he is voting Ray, especially after he finds Ari to be caught scum. He doesn't explain as he is supposedly waiting to see how Ray reacts in the thread 94, 96. This doesn't happen several pages later on 127. The things he was waiting so long to analyse 141 actually don't seem necessary to have withheld the information so long for. I think Jingle could have gotten just as interesting reactions from posting the case earlier and seeing how he and other players reacted to the case.

271 feels off in the sense that Jingle claims to be have become apathetic because of players not interacting with him for days at a time - yet, Jingle did his part in stopping people from being able to interact with him at a time. It's also where he votes TheGoldenParadox, so could be also him trying to add onto the wagon, while not taking much heat or responsibility for the vote.

Conclusion: Earlier in the game, I had not liked Jingle's theatricality, but ultimately thought he was almost too brazen to be scum. Now, I'm wondering whether he was just stringing us along.

xReckoner

20 continues to feel like very genuinely probing intent.

Reck also goes from an early townread of Ari 55 to deciding he wants to hammer. 224. No reason given at all - not sure if he actually thought Ari was scum or just wanted to progress the game?

Reck has an early scumread of Jingle in Day 1 in 55. He still has a scumread of Jingle in Day 2 244, but doesn't vote or consider Jingle.

But, votes RayFrost (not realising there has been a replacement) slot at the start of Day 2 in 233. Reck previously didn't like one of RayFrost's posts in 55 but I'm not sure whether this vote is still because of that post, or subsequent RayFrost posts? 287 feels like a decent attempt to sort TheGoldenParadox after realising the replacement. 326 - I think that's a sound impression as well.

339 is really good analysis as well.

Conclusion: I still think Reck is town. Reck's early play still resonates strongly as town with me. Some explanations for some of the above would be good though?

CultofAthena/Hopkirk

I still don't like CoA. The 'I like Jingle' 18 and then backtrack 'I like Jingle but never called it towny' is really weird 29. CoA scum with Jingle? And then attacking Jingle's game theory understanding 30. The interaction is still weird in some way. 51 I don't really see CoA's accusation of RayFrost being LAMIST.

Hopkirk enters the thread - 120, 121. He votes for Ari. Ari is listed in his scumreads, but the only reason given for Ari-scum is that Ari's tone was different in posts 90-93. I don't know if that makes any sense for Ari to be top scumread, as it seems Hopkirk has explained more about his scumreads on me, Reck and Korts? This actually looks a very opportunistic vote.
132 - Hmm, Hopkirk explains more why he thought that the tone was scummy.

132 - Hopkirk also tries to defend his slot by arguing that CoA is a newbie. It's worth noting that CoA has played quite a few games on site, including another geriatric.

I also think that Hopkirk's entry seemed preoccupied with scumreads on his slot. Hopkirk's explanations in 156 181 seem somewhat reasonable.

Hopkirk's concern with the formatting thing in 177 and 181 is still weird - Is he looking to create a reason to scumread me again?

Hopkirk trying to sort TheGoldenParadox looks okay. However, I don't like the 'we can't take TGP into LYLO' 295 and repeated in 344, could be trying to set up TGP as a policy lynch, as opposed to genuinely thinking he is scum.

Conclusion: I think Hopkirk is probably scum. There is too much fluff in CoA's play and opportunistic moments in Hopkirk's. I feel like I should stuck with my CoA read on early Day 1.

Keychain

49 - Joins me on CultofAthena. It's a little bit sheepy, 84's questing of CoA seems solid though.

Has a townread on Ari in 84, doesn't seem to have a reason for it though? 131 and 168 look like good trying to work through Jingle's case on Ari. I ask Keychain what her current read of Ari is. in 180 and 198 210- she argues that Ari is town. I disagreed with her analysis at the time. Reading back, the defence seems genuine while still trying to reassess when given different information. I don't feel that it's for town cred.

243 274 In Day 2, Keychain still thinks Hopkirk is scum, but doesn't vote.

293 - Keychain votes for TheGoldenParadox for L-1, seems opportunistic since she didn't vote Hopkirk. Eh, I scrolled back up and there are some interactions with TGP at the end of Day 1 eg 198 so maybe it's not as opportunistic as I first thought and there is a progression.

In 85, Keychain deals with Jingle. It is interesting/odd that they both seem to think that they are dancing around a scumread on each other, without voting each other.

Conclusion: I think I like Keychain for now. The only thing is her post count is on the low side - trying to fly under the radar? I would also like to know why she didn't vote Hopkirk on Day 2.

[insanity018]

I need to do a full reread, but right now I'm struggling to see any scumteams without Korts. Currently thinking Korts/Reckoner/BV.

I am going to do a reread and/or look at ISOs over the weekend.

Playing around a bit with coloured spreadsheets, and I could (physically) see Korts/Void/Key.

This was posted before the mod posted the flip. Did you no longer see TheGoldenParadox as scum?

That team was based on that thing. I'm leaning slightly more toward Reckoner that Key.

Oh, okay. I had originally interpreted that as 'after playing with spreadsheets, I think scum is Korts/Void/Key.'

#136: What the fuck, insanity just emptyvotes Ari? Ari was a townread... then she called him out for still having an RVS vote on me, says he's waffling, and BLAM we flip a townread into the strongest scumread out of nowhere. Wowee zowee. Maybe insanity was in my blindspot?

I actually thought Ari had gotten into my blindspot. It seemed like he was coasting though after I gave him an early townlean after liking 1 sentence. And I realised he'd actually done nothing else all day.

See my analysis above. You had an early townread on Ari too and ended up hammering. Did you think Ari was scum by the end of the day?

[insanity018]

Sorry, I've been surprisingly flat out for the past day and a half. Will be here later today.

[insanity018]

@Insanity: If TGP was in the game right now then he’d already be voting someone. Given his behaviour yesterday as town, we just wouldn’t be able to win a lylo with him in it. Clearly not going to actually do/be receptive to analysis if she can’t even answer a question in a week. His behaviour was scummy, but I’ve played with him before- which is why I was cautious about actually lynching him since he seemed like he could still just be a hard VI. In the end I thought he was plausible scum since he seemed more VI than I’d seen him before, but it was part policy that I wanted him lynched towards the end. Although I could have lynched him at pretty much any point for a week. Legitimately wanted to hear properly from him before I could fully sort him, so my scumread of him even towards the end was partially policy I suppose.

Hmm, okay, fair enough.

CoA/Hopkirk

Haha I didn't realise but 29's "Well, to be pedantic for a moment I never called it towny – I said I liked it." reminds me of 26's "It's not a question of what's good or bad, but what is scummy, and superficial questioning is scummy." from Luca. Early defensiveness and again a repeat of a Luca comment on insanity's Ari townread - "Explain this Ari townread to me." in Luca's 26 -> "Why do you think Aristo is town?" in CoA's 29. In 30, "Why? What's the end goal of that?" is a rerun of a similar comment by Jingle in 28 - which she clearly read, because she then goes on to comment on it. That's a fairly shocking lack of independent thought.

I like this observation. I didn't even notice the similarities the first time around and obviously I didn't see it in ISO just then. This makes her fluffy questioning look much worse.

I am wondering though - why didn't you vote Hopkirk in Day 2?

Why is Luca(BV)/Korts not likely?
Why is Key/Hop likely?

To the first, check the giant 1v1 that dominated the early game (before my Ari push, so pages 1-3).

The fact that it only lasted 3 pages is a major reason why I don't want to rule out Korts and Luca/BV as possible scumbuddies. It only lasted a short time and then Luca went V/LA. I think it's plausible that they could be early-game distancing. The actual substance of their fight seems really surface level. For Luca it's 'Korts has superficial questioning.' For Korts it's 'Luca is undermining my questions'. And then, for Luca, 'I'm undermining them because they are superficial.' They also don't seem to try to create traction for wagons on each other. The only 'case' made is Korts in 59. But the post seems to just describe things that Luca has done/said without really arguing why they make Luca scum.

[insanity018]

@Jingle, thanks for explaining more. I am planning to do an ISO of Korts later today and will have a closer look then.

@Anyone who disagreed with my assessment of CoA due to him having played a couple of games before. Why didn't you look at those games?

Unless I've played in those games, I don't generally read other games for meta. I found that I can be biased to seeing what I want to see. I'm also aware that people can try to play to their town meta, especially if they are aware of it.

[insanity018]

^

Looking at Luca Blight's ISO does make it seem unlikely that Korts and Luca/BV are scum together. Outside RVS, Luca focuses pretty much exclusively on Korts. The only exceptions are 2 statements to me in 26, responding to a meta question from Jingle 42 and responding to statements from Jingle 34 and RayFrost 43 regarding his play. So, Korts and Luca does seem unlikely - unless they had planned to distance until Luca went V/LA but when Luca returned he just couldn't get back into the game.

Korts ISO

In reading through this, I was surprised that Korts seemed to be fence-sitting on Day 1 more than I had remembered.

59 Korts doesn't get my CultofAthena case. But also says that because RayFrost agrees with my case, there might be something to do with it. This is strange - I don't see why Ray agreeing with my case should have any impact on Korts' read of CoA?

76 Korts' makes a read list ranking everyone from town - scum. Yet, in this reads' list 4/8 players are listed as basically 'don't have a read on them.' It is interesting that Korts also says 'I don't have a reliable read' on CultofAthena. This despite the fact that Korts has commented on not getting my case on CultofAthena and liking some of her posts? There Could be a possible Korts and CoA/Hopkirk connection.

Aristophanes

- Pretty uninvolved so far. Hoping that changes.

CultofAthena

- I don't have a reliable read. Hoping that changes.

RayFrost

- Doesn't seem immersed in the game, 3 posts total. I have mixed feelings about the direction of some of his responses, and he is yet to provide much analysis. Hoping that changes.

Keychain

- Her ISO is also surprisingly sparse with 3 posts. I am not quite convinced by the case against her, but I see the points, and her lack of activity is hindering the progression of the discussion around it, so I'm putting her below Ray.

Korts votes Aristophanes in 161 after finding Jingle's case compelling even though Jingle's attitude is unsettling. This seems consistent with Korts' 100 and 143.

253 Day 2 votes TGP, after quoting my read of the slot, putting TGP at L-2. The vote looks a bit sheeplike but to be fair everyone was talking about lynching TGP.

275 A weak push (and vote) on Hopkirk for lying about his alignments in the games TGP was referred to. Korts instantly revotes TGP after Hopkirk clarifies in 277. I'm trying to look at whether that could be Korts-Hopkirk distancing, knowing that that push wouldn't be able to go anywhere or whether that is a genuine reaction to Korts thinking he had spotted a lie.

[insanity018]

Someone who's played in like three games isn't going to be trying to play towards their town meta.
The scumreads were for a new player have a typical new player playstyle.
The refutation of that was 'she isn't new' without looking to see whether she seemed new.

I don't know why you are focusing so much on CultofAthena's degree of newbieness.

Even if CultofAthena's newer player status explains her fluffiness, it doesn't change the fact that she has been liking people for completely non alignment-indicative things (18, 29), copying or rephrasing other people's questions (in 29 and 30) and doesn't do what she says she will do. She says that she is using her questioning style to form reads (37) but we never see her do any of that.

[insanity018]

Maybe a scumteam of Hopkirk, Korts and either Jingle or Keychain?

Someone who's played in like three games isn't going to be trying to play towards their town meta.
The scumreads were for a new player have a typical new player playstyle.
The refutation of that was 'she isn't new' without looking to see whether she seemed new.

I don't know why you are focusing so much on CultofAthena's degree of newbieness.

Even if CultofAthena's newer player status explains her fluffiness, it doesn't change the fact that she has been liking people for completely non alignment-indicative things (18, 29), copying or rephrasing other people's questions (in 29 and 30) and doesn't do what she says she will do. She says that she is using her questioning style to form reads (37) but we never see her do any of that.

Because literally all of those things are explained by her being a newbie. Liking things for NAI reason- take a look at any player's third/fourth game and show me that doens't happen. Weak logic and not forming reads

well

at all

is NAI for a newbie.

You make it sound like newer players can never be scummy.

What do you think would be alignment-indicative for a newer player then?

[insanity018]

Woah - a fair bit has happened.

Okay Jingle, why are you voting Keychain over Hopkirk? You say you are 99% sure that Hopkirk and Keychain are scum. You're also 80% sure that Korts is scum, but think Korts is only scum with Hopkirk. From what you've been saying, I would have thought that Hopkirk makes more sense to vote.

I also can't find anywhere in the past 2 game days where you've spoken about any read of Keychain. So, please elaborate on why you think she is most likely to be scum? I see that you have asked her questions in 384/386 regarding ruling out scumteams. Did you see something in her posts or in her answers?

@insanity018- Talk to me about me. I'd like to resolve this read if possible, so that we can move on.

I feel conflicted about you mostly because I often feel I completely don't follow your thought process or understand what reactions you are looking for. For example, the Ray thing on Day 1 and the above - why Keychain?

[insanity018]

I feel more confident that Korts and Hopkirk are scum here. Hopkirk's progression on his read of Korts doesn't really make sense to me.

I kind of had you as default scum due to overlooking the Reck/Key/BV possibility- which now seems more likely.
I'd been putting off the isos. Now that I've actually read them, my thoughts have changed.

From what I can see, your Korts/Keychain/BV scumteam was based on a case that Korts and Keychain had scummy associatives/interactions with each other. So, why do you now see a scumteam where Korts has been substituted for Reck?

Why RBK: Rereading you and I was comfortable to eliminate you/Insanity. Assuming Reck/Korts aren't scum together leaves two scumteams. BV/Key are in every likely scumteam. Therefore, changing from Korts to Reck makes that the scumteam.

Why Reckoner>Korts

Korts side:
- Interactions with Luca could come from either alignment, but are more likely to come from town given Luca is scum.
- I like his vote on me in 275. Shows he’s actually looking at things rather than going for the mislynch purely for the mislynch (like Keychain).
- Reads seem reasonable consistent, if not fully developed on some slots.
- Interactions with BV/Keychain are better than Reckoner’s.
- A lot of his stuff is pretty nullish, but it’s not scummy-null like I thought.

Reckoner side:
- Dislike 55 as I have all game. Keychain/Korts interactions are especially bad given he puts them as null/light scum with no real follow up. Also still dislike the way he makes the Jingles scumread. The CoA scumread/Insanity townread without pushing it feels like he’s waiting/opportunistic for whatever wagon happens. Fits with his general sitting on the sidelines. This is reinforced by him not trying to interact with me or to push me.
- Flip to Ari is badly justified. Doesn’t consider Ari relative to Jingle- who he was voting just beforehand.
- Reads feel like they’re strategic/flexible rather than consistent. Eg, votes Korts in 281 for a weak attack on me- despite Reckoner seeming to have a scumread on me there. I don’t understand where his Jingle read went either.
- Claims in 289 he didn’t realize Ray had been replaced by TGP when he voted Ray in 233. Weird given he says in 287 that Ray didn’t do a lot, and Reck seems to have scumreads. Not a major point, but seems inconsistent/like the above. Don’t like the way he interacted with TGP in this exchange, as I mentioned at the time.
- 338/9- Says scum within 4 (Korts/Insanity/him/me)- very suspicious Key/BV are not in this pile. Comes out with BV/Key in the ‘could be scum but lets lynch other people first’ position. 339 hasn’t had the promised follow up after 6 days which fits with the other two scum who aren’t posting substance and waiting to see what happens.

I kind of had Reckoner as scum at the day start then forgot about him for some reason when I agreed Korts/Reckoner were unlikely to be together. I hadn’t actually reisod Korts or Reckoner properly until now. I think I was getting some of Korts/Reckoner mixed up with one another actually.

What do you like about Korts' vote on you in 275? It seemed like a pretty weak reason to vote someone to me.
As you have previously spoken about not liking the interactions between Korts and Keychain, why do you now believe that their interactions are better than Reck?
Well, you have re-iso'd Reck recently. In 356, you stated that you re-read Reck and said you now liked him as town. Why did you like him as town in that read through and why has he switched back to being a scumread now?

356: This is where the problem happened. I reread your iso

specifically

looking for Korts interactions. I was mistakenly only looking for scumteams that contained Korts (literally just ctrl/f Korts). I’d overlooked other possibilities. I concluded you were town since you/Korts seemed unlikely. You moved to scum when I realized Korts isn’t confirmed scum since there’s scumteams that don’t contain Korts. I’d been treating Korts as confirmed scum for some reason up to this point.

What. In 356, you specifically said

'Liked it

,

and

seemed less likely with Korts than I was thinking' so Reck is 'probably town'. So, what were you liking something aside from the Korts interactions?

I'm not sure where to put Hopkirk backing down from me as confscum so easily. It initially pinged my radar, but giving up on bad logic as soon as it is called out

can

be a reasonable pro-town move. It seems, however, that rather than just demoting my guaranteed position in all his scumteam calls, he's now transitioned his main focus to a scumteam without me? Not sure how that works.

Not a fan of Korts' response either. I would expect someone to be more suspicious about someone doing a 180 on their slot without any noticeable reasons, whereas Korts seems quite non-committal here.

Korts, where do you see Hopkirk giving up on bad logic after being called out?

[insanity018]

Okay Jingle, why are you voting Keychain over Hopkirk? You say you are 99% sure that Hopkirk and Keychain are scum. You're also 80% sure that Korts is scum, but think Korts is only scum with Hopkirk. From what you've been saying, I would have thought that Hopkirk makes more sense to vote.

I've decided the chance you are scum is remote enough to not need consideration. The only way Key is town is if you are scum or my pairing reads are flawed. None of the arguments for my pairing reads being flawed have been in any way substantial or convincing. Hence, Key is scum.

UNVOTE:

Hmm, okay, I had to go back and check your list of possible scumteams to see this.

It is definitely possible that Keychain is scum, I'm just more confident with the others.

--

@Hopkirk, you made a strong case of Korts and Keychain being scum together based on ISO-ing them both.

Spoiler: Hopkirk's posts

Korts/Keychain from Kort’s iso.

Korts mentions Keychain a couple of times early game, but not substantively. Doesn’t really follow up on anything. Interactions are not with Keychain, they’re just about Keychain without trying to directly engage. Differs quite a lot to other interactions he has.

209 is Korts responding to Keychain’s request he outline his scumcase on Ari. Keychain does not follow up once Korts outlines the case. Neither seem to care. The interaction there seems fake. Seems like Key pushing for the Ari wagon by getting a partner to justify it since he can’t. Aligns with Keychain not making any effort to push against the Ari wagon despite allegedly townreading Ari.

277 is the next and last time Korts mentions Key. They’re working together on the TGP lynch this time.

At no point in the game does Korts really express a read on Keychain. He doesn’t try to interact with him or read him, and doesn’t seem to care. Given his multiple comments on even BV/TGP, it seems unlikely he’d be happy not to have any thoughts on or interactions with Keychain.

@Insanity: If TGP was in the game right now then he’d already be voting someone. Given his behaviour yesterday as town, we just wouldn’t be able to win a lylo with him in it. Clearly not going to actually do/be receptive to analysis if she can’t even answer a question in a week. His behaviour was scummy, but I’ve played with him before- which is why I was cautious about actually lynching him since he seemed like he could still just be a hard VI. In the end I thought he was plausible scum since he seemed more VI than I’d seen him before, but it was part policy that I wanted him lynched towards the end. Although I could have lynched him at pretty much any point for a week. Legitimately wanted to hear properly from him before I could fully sort him, so my scumread of him even towards the end was partially policy I suppose.

Keychain reread- (any use of she/her not referring to Key here is a mistake as I initially got Key’s gender wrong and had to find/replace. This might mistakenly confuse/change meanings in parts I missed).

Keychain has Korts as scummy early on (49). Interactions with Korts in 84 by answering Kort’s question about CoA, but doesn’t ask Kort’s anything. Reads Korts as null/wants to sort at the end of 84. I really don’t get the sense from this post that she was legitimately trying to sort Korts. Earlier scumminess she said Korts had also disappears here without any clear intent to follow up. Her interactions with Jingle between here and the next section feel a bit empty since I don’t get the impression Keychain is developing her reads during it.

Townreads Korts after reading in 131. Does not appear to have reread Luca as well and doesn’t look like she intends to so only rereading Korts here feels like it’s intentional/partner. Makes a couple of points for Korts town- general points, but scumpoints on Korts are given specifics. Pointing out specific points here gives the impression it was easier for him to find evidence for scum Korts, yet read Korts as town- which makes me think partners. Similarly in 145 Insanity questions Keychain and she can quote more things to support the scumreasons on Korts. Yet she’s still pushing CoA at this point when it sounds like she has reason to be pushing Korts. Instead, she’s not really trying to interact with Korts.

I still don’t like her Ari town stuff in 180. Saying ‘why would scum ever be this honest’ doesn’t strike me as something town says. Obviously if Ari had been scum there she’d be saying it since she’d been on L1 for a while, and would be willing to try anything not to get lynched. Despite being against it here, she said in 168 she agreed with part of the case- though this part was one of, if not the, most significant parts of the case on Ari. Further, despite ‘not being a fan of this lynch’ Key isn’t doing anything to actually oppose the lynch. Her posting at this point is entirely devoid of any attempts to push someone over than Ari/form a counterwagon. I get a strong sense here that Key is just saying she doesn’t like the Ari wagon while actually being happy it’s going through- or rather her actions in regard to it going through don’t resemble her words against it. Backing off from me I could definitely see as an excuse/not legitimate if he really townread Ari.

Next interactions with Korts is in 198, just a quick question about her read on Ari. Doesn’t seem to be interested in developing the Korts read from earlier. 210- Reading the end here as ‘if someone doesn’t hammer soon I’m flipping this read and hammering’. Don’t see much development on reads over day two. Supports the TGP lynch D2 after being off the wagon D1 is consistent with Scumchain. The specific post quoted isn’t the worst of TGP’s evasion.

I’m now thinking Korts/Keychain/BV (BV being kind of POEish)

Re-reading and re-evaluating is all good, but the 180 on Korts feels rather convenient and makes me think a you/Korts scumteam.

What were the main things you thought about Korts that made you suspect him at the start of today? (These things being so scummy that you couldn't see a scumteam without him)
On your re-read, what specific things in Korts' ISO did you find that made you completely re-think your read? (These things making it so that Korts now isn't in your likely scumteam at all)

[insanity018]

VOTE: Hopkirk

I am most comfortable with voting Hopkirk today, on the chance that the other scum is not Keychain, but Jingle or a distancing BV slot.

Hopkirk, I asked you those questions because it wasn't clear from scanning through your recent ISO. I wanted to know how you specifically got from not seeing any scumteams without Korts (344) to not seeing a scumteam with Korts (344). This is a massive 180.

Hopkirk's had a 'bad gut feeling due to vague memories' (424) for suspecting Korts. In other words, he didn't have a clear, specific reason. So, if his suspicion of Korts was so vague, how could this cause such a strong scumread that he could not see any scumteams without Korts? How could this suspicion be so concrete that Hopkirk started doing ISO's to find Korts's partner rather than find scum generally? This doesn't seem like a town-motivated approach to looking for scum.

So then, Hopkirk becomes pushing a Reck/Key/BV scumteam. Korts has been relegated to unlikely to be scum. Hopkirk's explanations of his change in thought process is unconvincing. He says that he did a complete re-read of the game, which caused him to re-evaluate. He insists that his previous read of Korts had been without any ISO basis. However, he had at least read Korts's ISO to conclude that he was probably scum with Keychain (367). He claims that the unlikeliness of Korts and BV being scum together was a factor influencing this change. This is despite the fact that he has vocalised the possibility of them being scum theatre or scum distancing on multiple occasions (385, 389). Hopkirk claims that this Korts read was influenced by a growing read that Reck was more likely to be scum. He gives these reasons in 398. Hopkirk's insistence that Reck's interactions with BV/Key are worse than Korts, seems illogical considering how when Hopkirk did ISO Korts, he had made arguments that Korts/Keychain had bad interactions with each other. The other reasons Hopkirk gives for preferring Reck are also weak for example disliking the flip to Ari (already explained as wanting to move the game along), Reck's lynchpool (already explained as relating to who had been on what wagon) and not realising Ray had been replaced. Basically, I don't like this leap from Hopkirk at all.

Hopkirk is either lying about his thought process or is pushing a clearly scummy thought process. I think that there is a Hopkirk/Korts team. I think that it is most likely that scum-Hopkirk realised that people had been contemplating the possibility of Korts-scum at the end of Day 2. He started talking about not seeing a scumteam without Korts in order to distance and get cred in case Korts did get lynched. But as the day went on and it seemed people weren't that interested in a Korts lynch, he conveniently re-read and came to a conclusion that Korts wasn't scum at all. I think he tried to make the 180 look less suspicious by talking about Reck and talking about re-evaluating, but there is no clear town thought process from Hopkirk's changes in read.

I also dislike how he's tried to handwave suspicions on CultofAthena as her being new, unprompted. This seems very defensive minded. I'm also having alarm bells of the number of times he's focused on talking about lynching BV. If BV is town, he will be the scumteam's easy mislynch. And if he's scum, there is so little information of him in the thread to get a solid read. It's white flag anyways.

[insanity018]

Hopkirk, I asked you those questions because it wasn't clear from scanning through your recent ISO. I wanted to know how you specifically got from not seeing any scumteams without Korts (344) to not seeing a scumteam with Korts

(344)

391

This is a massive 180.

Fixed wrong post number from above.

[insanity018]

Insanity:

There's a pretty clear divide between when I'd fully reread and when I hadn't reread.
I already told you why I flipped on Korts. Explained in detail. Don't bother asking the same question if you can't be bothered explaining how it's different to the last one OR why you didn't like the last answer. Say you didn't like it, don't pretend I didn't answer. Alternatively, read stuff before voting in daytalk lylo.

Don't try to misrepresent me. I have quoted your posts, referenced your posts and specifically talked about why I think your posts are showing a scum narrative.

I find it hard to believe that a townie who can't put a finger on why they felt someone was scum, would also be so convinced that they spent the first part of this day phase doing ISOs only to look for that person's partner.

VOTE: Keychain

Insanity/Keychain/Reckoner (team without BV) is more likely than Korts/BV/Reckoner (team without BV) or BV/Keychain/Jingles (team without Reckoner).

Oh look, another conveniently changing scumteam.

How did Blackvoid's 438 change your mind? How did you go from voting BlackVoid and saying that 'your posting does suggest you aren't town'? (439) to now thinking scumteams without BV are most likely?

[insanity018]

I am also finding strange Hopkirk's reaction to being voted strange. As town who thought I was town, he should have been more worried about me voting him. He should have been trying to convince me that I was wrong and that I should unvote him. As even if he wanted to vote BV scum, he should have been more worried since my vote would have still meant town lost if scum quickhammers.

When he suddenly starts thinking I'm possibly scum in 440, 441, this is a sharp transition. And seems like an attempt to discredit and get a jump on why there has been no quickhammer as he knows I'm town voting scum.

[insanity018]

@Jingle, I completely agree. Hopkirk's reactions have definitely been strange and panicky this today.

I can see Hopkirk as being scum with Korts and Keychain.

Korts

Early Korts is wishy washy on his read of CultofAthena in 59 and his reads list in 77. The short back and forth between Korts and Hopkirk regarding game links in 275, 276, 277 appear to be distancing. Hopkirk liking this vote later is extremely weird. In Hopkirk's opening post, he has a scumread on Korts 120, but doesn't follow up on it at all until this game day.

In terms of Hopkirk's strange progression on Korts today, I considered the possibility that Hopkirk-scum had been hoping to get Korts-town lynched, but switched scumteams when that wasn't getting much traction. I don't this possibility is as likely due to their various interactions.

Keychain

Keychain seemed to sheep me onto Hopkirk early and vote parked there. But, she really didn't try too hard to get Hopkirk lynched. On Day 1, she thought Aristophanes was probably town, but she didn't do much to get people back interested in Hopkirk. On Day 2, she was still expressing a scumread on Hopkirk, but never voted for him and voted for TGP instead.

Jingle

I don't think it's Jingle at this stage. The way CultofAthena tried to interact with him early game is probably the only thing that pings me at the moment - liking him but not putting a townreading him, trying to have a mafia theory discussion with him.

[insanity018]

Jingle

I don't think it's Jingle at this stage. The way CultofAthena tried to interact with him early game is probably the only thing that pings me at the moment - liking him but not putting a townreading him, trying to have a mafia theory discussion with him.

Huh, adding to this it's also a bit odd that Hopkirk consistently puts Jingle as soldidly town eg 120, 389 but I can't find anywhere that he states why. I still think Hopkirk being partners with Korts and Keychain is more likely though.

[insanity018]

Hi Titus! Thanks for replacing in!

Well, scum have daytalk which means it is very likely they would have been able to co-ordinate a quickhammer. Hopkirk is scum.

[insanity018]

Yay! Thanks for modding Gurgi.

I really enjoyed playing with all of you!

insanity if you were scum well fucking played

Thanks!

gg town. It was lovely playing with you all! Thank you for modding, Gurgi.

insanity if you were scum well fucking played

Right?? She was amazing and a great partner as well.

<3 You were a fantastic partner as well. It was great discussing with you in the scum qt.

I'm happy to release the scum qt if you are?

I called insanity like day 1

[insanity018]

Nightless is such a hard slog wow. White flag mechanic was also tough considering even insanity towning it up wouldn't matter if the other two of us got lynched. If town had lynched me we would have been in such a precarious position with the lurker slot and all.

Yep, it was definitely a challenge!

@Blackvoid if you're still reading this, you were clearly too busy to replace in. I like that you wanted to catchup properly but by not replacing out when you couldn't manage, you made it stressful for us because we still needed to protect your slot.

Thanks to Titus for replacing in though!

[insanity018]

My aim was to look as townie as possible from the start. I tried to be aggressive and go after stuff that I would have genuinely attacked if I was town (eg early CultofAthena posts). I'm glad that it worked and I had a lot of people townreading at the start of the game.

I think that I could have been caught on some of the interactions. On a few occasions, I was soft-defending my buddies. For example, Luca Blight during the argument with Korts. I also gave Keychain the benefit of the doubt a lot, even though I should have been more suspicious of someone who looked to be sheeping/buddying me.

It's hard to tell what would have happened if BV was replaced earlier. I believe his lurkiness caused problems for both town and scum equally. If anything, he should probably have been policy lynched on Day 2 (but TGP helped us out by looking even worse and pretty much trolling). I genuinely don't think he would have been the right choice to lynch in Day 3 given the white flag mechanic and the lack of information.

In terms of the apathy problem, I think it would have been fine if the 48 hour prod rule had been implemented. I think the geriatric ruleset is fine!

[insanity018]

@BV

I feel like catching up as much as you could- slowly but doing something- would have looked a lot more pro-town than a big catch up. The way you approached it looked manufactured or scum who didn't want to rock the boat. A big catch up with in-depth reads would just sound like you'd spent ages making it and were more interested in how it looked than it letting us know what you were thinking.

I agree! Or even posting impressions like "A and B are town, X and Y are scum" and the interacting with other players in order to flesh out the reasons why would have been useful. It's just your slot had been inactive for so long that we didn't have the luxury of waiting around for your slot to produce content. It was sliding further and further into the default-scum pile the longer you didn't post.

And again, I appreciate that you wanted to catchup properly rather than just lurk-coast for the win.

Luckily everything worked out