Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Ranmaru]

NSG, tell me your thoughts on Action Dan and Quick right now.

[Ranmaru]

I also still want explanations on your reads, and you said you would have Math give a reads list too.

[Gamma Emerald]

ok then, guess the first point is fair. As for the next two things when did you say scum weren't bussing? Because that affects what I think of the statement. Also I can see how you can connect the generalizations. btw I'm gonna start working on covering every scumflip, the slot occupants, and if I determine something wrt you team that makes me rethink you I might reconsider, but there's also AD stepping up all of a sudden to defend you, which he didn't do for Eddie, a townflip.

I forget, it was when i was talking about the marquis wagon.

I don't mean any offense by this, but your logic is incorrect in that last sentence there. Yes, eddie was town and dan did not step up to defend him. Does that necessarily imply something different about my alignment because dan is now defending me? That doesn't make sense – we're entirely different players.

What's more, let's say that it really is me and dan as scum. Making this play would practically be suicide for the scumteam – if people follow what he says and he flips scum, that instantly incriminates me whereas if i were simply to get lynched and flip scum he would be better served by distancing himself from me.

I feel like his inconsistency is scum-motivated. It could be to implicate you though, and it's not just that which is making me scumread him.

[Ranmaru]

I'm going to prepare for work. I will try to have quick posts at work, more in depth responses after work tonight.

[northsidegal]

NSG: I think she's scum due to fence sitting, lacking presence,

Not scumtells in and of themselves.

and not committing to the Eddie wagon without a stance on it.

I've explained the reason for this.

She states her lack of motivation was due to having bad posts, but I never got that feeling, and she was never pressured.

Okay? You never got the feeling that my posts were bad, but that means nothing for the way that

I

feel sometimes typing them.

I certainly think that she is more likely scum who actually lost interest in keeping up. She posts in other games and seems to have more energy for those and leaves this in the back burner.

I've explained the reasons before for why i lost motivation. Do you have reason to believe that it's more likely because i'm scum than because of the reasons that I've given? keep in mind that i would literally never ever choose to play scum.

She also hasn't seemed to re-evaluate her CES read, she seems to be more harping on him and trying to find anything she can on him rather then actually try to determine his alignment. #1963 || I began to reconsider and think if maybe she had a point. My concern is that she doesn't seem as eager to talk with CES as she would expect him to be (since she says he isn't sorting). This looks very bad on her. She's putting off the most important thing, and that's interacting with her main scum read.

I interacted plenty with cogito ergo sum over the course of the day. Do you know what happened to detour me from doing that? Having to hard defend a lynchbait wagon from going through and then getting hard tunneled by someone committing to make me jump through as many hoops as possible and then still just calling me scum (ignoring her teammates, the nightkill whose dying request was that i was locktown and common sense).

It takes myself calling her out to get her in thread. Her #2581 pinged me in a similar way to Action Dan's post after I voted Eddie. (Which put Eddie at 5 votes) #2423 Is a good post from Shea as well, which looks bad on NSG. #2634 Is suspicious to me as I am pushing for CES, she states openness to Dunn. Compromising is a good skill, but not so early in the day. I felt it was out of place with her focus. NSG's #2528 has been going unexplained for a while. It feels like she stated that to appease me rather then to actually do anything with it. (She has said she wavered on him, and her read change back to TSQ is unexplained)

How is openness to compromise a scumtell? I was concerned that if i couldn't get the votes necessary to lynch cogito ergo sum that the marquis wagon would go through, so i was prepared to switch to dunnstral as i also have him as scum. that's me thinking ahead about how to

win the game

and avoid lynching the lynchbait.

I think i said i wavered on tsq on like day two or something. that read is out of date.

i'm pretty sure there was like a 12 to 24 hour gap between me saying i'd make that response and you flipping out on me. like, i went to bed one day and then i woke up and found your readslist flipped upside down again. you can't imply a causal relationship between the two things.

Which you state you deleted, and said was bad, even though you said you were still confident in your CES read.

And? I don't understand how that's a response to what i just said.

Still waiting to hear what a50 thinks of all this. or cheeky, even.

[northsidegal]

NSG, tell me your thoughts on Action Dan and Quick right now.

Why?

Does it matter? You don't take anything i say into account. Sure, I'll jump through your hoops and type up a paragraph or so on my thoughts on them, but i don't think it'll actually change your mind on anything. Btw, talk to a50?

[northsidegal]

I feel like his inconsistency is scum-motivated. It could be to implicate you though, and it's not just that which is making me scumread him.

First question – why is it scum motivated?

Second question – is it even an inconsistency in the first place if he felt that eddie was not worth defending whereas i am?

[northsidegal]

Hey ran, why do you keep ignoring me when i ask you about your team?

[Gamma Emerald]

btw I'm thinking based on your teams flips you might be town, cos I think kmd prefers town? Can some extarnal source tell me if I'm right or rong herre

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like his inconsistency is scum-motivated. It could be to implicate you though, and it's not just that which is making me scumread him.

First question – why is it scum motivated?

Second question – is it even an inconsistency in the first place if he felt that eddie was not worth defending whereas i am?

Either he's defending his buddy or acting strange to implicate you. As town it feels weird. And he seemed like he considered Eddie worth defending with his comment on the Eddie and LQ wagons being bad, which is another reason I scumread him

[Ranmaru]

A50 would bet the tournament on you being town. I disagree, I think you are relying heavily on the preference to try to clear yourself. I am asking your thoughts on AD and quick because I am willing to compromise to them today.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: AD
Unlike LQ I think we can swing this.

[Thestatusquo]

those cases probably happened during the time when i was only kind of skimming the thread. i'll go back and read them now to try to refine my own read, i've just so far kind of put off talking about it because i don't really like just sheeping other people's reads – i like to have my own reads on things and i haven't had that for eddie so far.

also, you make it sound like i just resorted to theory as a defense, but you were the one who put forward theory as to why i'd be scum – your theory was that my fence sitting was beneficial to me as scum no matter how eddie flipped, because if he flipped scum i could take credit for the wagon and if he flipped town i could say that i wasn't on it. my response to that is that, at least for myself and the way i've dealt with the eddie wagon, there's no world in which i would reasonably get any "credit" for it, whether he flipped scum or town.

Ok so my problem with this is that when I jump back into a game as town, whether that be as a replacement or from my own inactivity, my first job is to understand what is going on and why, and that involves understanding where the current wagons are coming from and figuring out if they're good or not.

The fact that you seem to have no curiosity about this what I would call fundamental part of a catchup is another part of why your catchup doesn't feel genuine to me.

If you're town, why don't you care about sorting the player that is L minus freaking one?

You have now responded saying that you ignored the wagon because you assumed the lynch was inevitable, but that doesn't actually interact with what I'm saying. The fact that you ignored it because you assumed it was inevitable was my whole point. You just came into the game, did a "catch up," assumed the lynch was inevitable, without determining whether the points were good or not (you mentioned a couple of times that you had not even read the various cases on him despite me asking you to do so like 2 times and despite me asking you for your opinion on those cases)

Despite the fact that you had called eddie various levels of town all of the day and the previous one?

You thought there was no benefit in reading why he was being attacked and disagreeing with it? How did you know the lynch was inevitable when you DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER to read peoples reasons for it.

[northsidegal]

Either he's defending his buddy or acting strange to implicate you. As town it feels weird.

What's with this dichotomy? Why is it impossible that he's defending someone he townreads?

[Gamma Emerald]

Either he's defending his buddy or acting strange to implicate you. As town it feels weird.

What's with this dichotomy? Why is it impossible that he's defending someone he townreads?

Because why wouldn't he take the same defense day 2? it's oddly timed I feel.

[northsidegal]

You have now responded saying that you ignored the wagon because you assumed the lynch was inevitable, but that doesn't actually interact with what I'm saying. The fact that you ignored it because you assumed it was inevitable was my whole point. You just came into the game, did a "catch up," assumed the lynch was inevitable, without determining whether the points were good or not (you mentioned a couple of times that you had not even read the various cases on him despite me asking you to do so like 2 times and despite me asking you for your opinion on those cases)

Despite the fact that you had called eddie various levels of town all of the day and the previous one?

You thought there was no benefit in reading why he was being attacked and disagreeing with it? How did you know the lynch was inevitable when you DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER to read peoples reasons for it.

I considered eddie town initially for a poor reason that others pointed out. I knew postie's team had a meta case on him, which I assumed at the very least was valid. It wasn't a priority for me because there was no way I would be hard-defending him from the lynch in the first place.

[northsidegal]

Either he's defending his buddy or acting strange to implicate you. As town it feels weird.

What's with this dichotomy? Why is it impossible that he's defending someone he townreads?

Because why wouldn't he take the same defense day 2? it's oddly timed I feel.

Like I said, me and eddie are different people. Is it impossible to you that dan considers me with defending where eddie wasn't?

[ActionDan]

Dan, my biggest issue with NSG was her catchup where she displayed a fundamental lack of curiosity about the lynch that was on the block who she was null town reading.

When I as town catchup on games, thats the NUMBER ONE thing I'm interested in, especially as we approach deadline. When I'm scum I tend to just look for my name.

What do you think of that? How can you explain that catch up from a town mindset?

I read back over D2 with your iso and her iso and the vote counts from math blade.

I understand where you're coming from here. If you were ambivalent about the D2 wagon, and couldn't determine whether it would flip town or scum (which is documented in a couple of NSG's posts), I do think a natural reaction would be to try to do your best to determine that. However, if in catchup mode, there's going to be a lot of different priorities, not least of which is documenting and explaining your own scum reads. And in doing that, I think NSG thought if she was able to get something concrete out of it, she'd come to know more about what to think of Eddie and his wagon. In my opinion it's an indirect approach and I can understand why it rubbed you the wrong way, but looking at her posts I believe it's a legitimate approach even as Eddie's wagon continued to grow and grow.

Now saying something like "I think we have to lynch eddie" or that abouts does raise a few eyebrows but a liberal interpretation would be that NSG didn't think anyone would get past that read (think of Postie there) and unto to any of her own without the flip. I still think her posts around then and after with you look very town to me.

I'd ask if you think holistically if you think her play has been scummy aside from this episode. Because though I don't see it there, I get why you would. However, I also don't see it anywhere else, and particularly, currently. Do you?

[northsidegal]

A50 would bet the tournament on you being town. I disagree, I think you are relying heavily on the preference to try to clear yourself. I am asking your thoughts on AD and quick because I am willing to compromise to them today.

I'm obvtown by play. The preferences are just an easy way to get everyone to see it.

Is your scumread on me truly so strong that you'd go against your teammate saying that he'd

literally bet the tournament

on me being town? Someone who has far more experience with and knowledge of me?

If yes, I don't mean to be rude, but that's arrogance to the extreme. Your hubris will be the town's failure.


I'm never voting either of those two today.

[Thestatusquo]

I really fucking hate "I'm obvtown by play" in the face of like 3-4 people scum reading you for your play.

Like, even if you are town thats just not a legitimate defense to being scum read.

And even if you think it is, just flatly stating it isn't legitimate.

Why are you obv town by play? Please explain what about your play is obv town?

[LicketyQuickety]

@Dan, could you get to that thing I wanted you to do?

[northsidegal]

I agree with you normally. Seriously, I do. I'm just trying to drive home a point to Ran.

Ran's proposed scumteam doesn't account for me hard defending marquis and spending a large part of today getting her off that wagon. That's just a face value reason for why it doesn't make sense.

[northsidegal]

Btw, gamma, you didn't quote your reasons for scumreading me.

[Thestatusquo]

Did ran propose a full scum team and I'm missing it?

[northsidegal]

Multiple times, yes. Me / Dan / Quick.