Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Davsto]

Also I don't have time to make a full detailed post tonight (I may do tomorrow) but I implore people to read over CES' defence which they likely skimmed, and look at everything they've linked etc. I've read the first few quote-replies in the first post and it seems to me like a fair amount of his counterpoints aren't really strong and/or are based on technicalities that sort of miss the point (e.g. his saying that nsg was inaccurate as he did explain his vote - while technically true, this is missing out the context that said explanation was 9 irl days later, only brought up when he was specifically asked about by a catching-up Ranmaru, and long past when it was really relevant, so the counterpoint is really missing the point of why she considers it scummy).

Additionally, I think it's very telling that CES seems to have put a lot more effort into defending himself than he has into his only real scumread throughout the whole game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I could say something here about how I prefer to focus on specific things rather than ask scattershot questions but this feels like a fairly arbitrary thing for you to say I should've done. When the votes are 4-4 between me and Marquis and I strongly believe Marquis is scum, why would it be a priority to engage with Marquis?

It helps you provide more evidence for people to vote your scumread (rather than just repeating "hey lynch marquis please" over and over), and helps you get more idea of associatives if he did die.

I did ask him about you precisely because of potential associatives and I didn't even get a response (which is at least some information); this example is not exactly disproving my philosophy that asking less questions is better than asking loads. And I did try to provide a more compelling argument to vote Marquis - that's why I wrote what I did in #3095.

It also feels weird for you to be saying this because you didn't make any attempt to engage with me when I became your strongest scum read.

What the fuck have I been doing with you over my last few posts if it isn't "engaging with you". It's, like, literally what I'm doing. Right now. I didn't do it instantly, sure, but that's a different situation to my main scumread being a lurker who suddenly makes a bunch of posts.

Yes, clearly I'm aware of that, but I'm the one that initiated this conversation. Like, I already invited you to talk to me about Marquis in #2477 and you voted me on Tuesday but didn't speak a word to me until I engaged you Friday at midnight. Since then, I also don't you've barely tried to expand the scope of our conversation even though you've claimed to have multiple examples of me being scummy. In comparison, I asked Marquis a question within 2 hours and I've asked him another question since even though he still hasn't responded to the first question, so yes, it does feel weird to me that you're claiming I'm the one who's not interested in engaging with my main scum read.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, you there? Still waiting.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've read the first few quote-replies in the first post and it seems to me like a fair amount of his counterpoints aren't really strong and/or are based on technicalities that sort of miss the point (e.g. his saying that nsg was inaccurate as he did explain his vote - while technically true, this is missing out the context that said explanation was 9 irl days later, only brought up when he was specifically asked about by a catching-up Ranmaru, and long past when it was really relevant, so the counterpoint is really missing the point of why she considers it scummy).

Nsg never says why it would be scummy if I had never explained my page 3 'marble vote, so how could I be missing the point? It's true that I only explained it much later but we're also talking here about me voting 'marble on page 3 to needle him - I don't think it was

ever

particularly relevant. This is exactly why this is frustrating - all nsg writes is "CES votes llamarble and never explains why." without any sort of explanation of why that makes sense coming from CESscum and I'm forced at least 5 times as much to fully debunk it to everyone's satisfaction.

Additionally, I think it's very telling that CES seems to have put a lot more effort into defending himself than he has into his only real scumread throughout the whole game.

I'm just writing more because this whole stupid situation is forcing me too. I probably spent a comparable amount of time on writing #3095 as I did on #3169; that's what I'm interested in - concise, well-thought out arguments that people have the time to digest in full.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

2. Shows a survivalist instinct. #2431

[...]

Scum motivation: Action Dan can't fake any scum reads and can only push lynchbait. So he stays as invisible as possible and lets others push mislynches for him. His motivation for his mislynch angle on me is to deflect pressure from his own slot, as I made a big push for him. If that had not happened, he would be contempt with my slot. Otherwise, if he truly had a concern, he'd bring it up much sooner. #2746 Shows that he is only intent on talking about Dunn, Marquis, or CES. (Him and partly his team mates) If he truly had a concern with me he'd bring it up there. The only change is I'm a threat to his slot, therefore he tries his best to undermine my slot and fails.

Can you tell me how #2431 shows survival instinct, Ran? I just don't see what you're getting at. I do think your point on scum motivation definitely has merit. I'm pretty sure I remember that AD is indeed more focused on townhunting, but it is a matter of degrees and AD seemed to err on the scummy side of it.

[Lycanfire]

I don't really see it still but in CES's comments about his read on me he said that he'd have liked to see more about the townread I gave Eddie. I have to ask, did you not agree with it? originally it was because I'd never think Eddie would take a scum PM as long as his team had any town PMs, which is why I thought there was 99.9% chance eddie was town coming into the game. But considering your vote D2, I highly doubt I'd have changed your mind and you were cognizant of it, it seems. So why the need to reiterate it to you? would that have made you unvote Eddie?

I just think it didn't stand out to me initially; it's not like I was scum reading him at the time. There were definitely times in D2 where I wavered and was close to switching back to Marquis.

This looks like a really weird interaction.. They both seem to be on the defensive of each other. I don't know what this means. I almost think this is T vs S, but I am usually very hesitant to label things as that because they are so hard to spot.

@Lycan, what do you think of this interaction here?

Theatre. Dan is trying to look concerned about CES' read, maybe pointing out that CES had a good reason to suspect Dan (CES had Eddie high up in his pool D2). Meanwhile CES is making a pass, and still has no aspirations to question Dan, esp. after that hilariously bad flip eod1 Dan had with Gamma-Eddie-Dunnstral and then onto Marquis, while being unable to properly justify Dunnstral or Marquis as scum, even though it's easy to argue. It isn't that they're being defensive of one another, it's that Dan is saying "look everyone, CES had some weak suspicion of me at some time for a good reason! look at how much of a scumshit I was yesterday!" all while trying to be up in his face about it. CES perceives no threat from Dan and rather than say "you can't influence me to vote anybody" or "why didn't you work with me yesterday" he offers this lawful neutral "[at] times ... i wavered". CES is unnecessarily making this about himself.

I made it this far in CES' ISO.. I don't think he is Scum.

So is CES the townie in the above scenario? It's worded

T vs S

. As in, the townie is the one creating the flashpoint against the scum. That's Dan in the above. I don't see how they're defensive either.

I also thought 395 was weak sauce and I hate that Shea is TRing Gamma for that.

Is 395 scummy?

The "No Doubt" post.

snip

This is why Shea needs to die.

Is it unfair that somebody that scumreads you, calls you scum, and says that he has no doubt that you would vote him? I don't like how you boil down his argument to you joining "a bandwagon". Shea at the time wasn't just a random person for you. Shea is referencing a time where you were actively attacking Reck's reads, and saying you would vote him as scum is completely fair. Attacking you for your votes at the time was completely fair. Boiling it down into "would I do this as town"/"would I do this as scum" is pointless, because he clearly defined his read on you at the time. Combating this by trying to create some kind of doubt about your align is just hilariously the wrong angle to make, because it completely sidesteps the need to justify your votes.

Is anyone besides North actually TRing Marquis?

How do you feel about Postie trying to sell Marquis her Eddie read, only for Marquis to ignore it, come back and say he'll post for real, then votes you, Ranmaru eod, only to ignore Postie again D2 to vote yourself and Dunnstral?

THAT is a CASE!!!

VOTE: CES

I applaud you.

Why CES over Marquis? In your own words please. No dodgerino, you're the one putting your foot down for these reads here.

Does Tchill's wagon comp factor into your reads at the moment? How does this affect your read on Dunnstral?

[Lycanfire]

I'll be home in a few hours if anyone wants a jam tonight. I'm mostly caught up and have a tab explosion of posts I think are important. Let's break this game open.

[Gamma Emerald]

Alright. Can you talk to me what you like about the case?

One second
also did I just slip into the twilight zone cos things are weird; why are both Ran and Lycan opposing this wagon now

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire we need to talk tonight. CES, I'll reply when I get home.

[Thestatusquo]

The case isn't very good but CES' reaction to it borders on atrocious.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Davsto, I'd also like you to comment on my two examples in #3182. I also would suggest that the example we just discussed shows you're putting the burden of proof in the wrong place.

The case isn't very good but CES' reaction to it borders on atrocious.

You try getting hit with a post that essentially says "either spend 6 hours writing up an incredibly tedious post that most people probably won't read or get mislynched" and see what your reaction is.

[Thestatusquo]

Have you been paying literally attention to LQ this game? Have you been paying literally any attention to ANYTHING in this game besides marquis?

Because I've had to do that like 5 times.

VOTE: ces

L-1.

If we lynch dunn/marquis/ces/NSG we win the game.

[Ranmaru]

Ok. I understand why LQ was attacking my read on Gamma this day now.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote

Scum is Shea, Quick, Gamma.

[Thestatusquo]

Ran ffs I'm pretty sure you've called 90% of the player list scum with absolute certainty at this point.

Will you get it together?

[Ranmaru]

More when I get home.

[Gamma Emerald]

I recall some of this context and I don't see where you get that it's taking things out of context

I'm sure there's some context she hasn't taken things out of. But I've also now written a superlong post that includes many instances of her leaving out context. Give me some sign that you've at least looked at the two examples I pointed out (the two examples are my fully worked out one at the end (link) and the fact that she claimed I was only scum-reading Marquis based on awkwardness and lurking when e.g. I laid out my stance in detail just a few pages ago in #3095. That stuff is like foundational to my play in this game and she just claims it doesn't exist.

These counterpoints: yes I guess those are fair but I'm still not a fan of you reacting "oh and this is why cases suck btw" because it's that knee-jerk value to you being cased and making that statement that makes it horrible. Why didn't this get stated, idk,

when you accused me of being scum for basically making a TChill case

? Was it because you wanted that mislynch to not get shot down?

[Gamma Emerald]

Intent to hammer

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Have you been paying literally attention to LQ this game? Have you been paying literally any attention to ANYTHING in this game besides marquis?

Because I've had to do that like 5 times.

VOTE: ces

L-1.

If we lynch dunn/marquis/ces/NSG we win the game.

That's fair. It's been a long day.

But as before, there's no need for me to be at L-1. Make people talk to me and justify their vote.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Intent to hammer

If you hammer, it's a scum claim.

[Gamma Emerald]

This massive blowback tells me "you're on the right track, don't ass this up"

[Gamma Emerald]

There is a chance I might not hammer, but the ball isn't really in CES' court right now. not saying whose court it's in cos I want them to make an uninformed attempt at changing my mind.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

These counterpoints: yes I guess those are fair but I'm still not a fan of you reacting "oh and this is why cases suck btw" because it's that knee-jerk value to you being cased and making that statement that makes it horrible. Why didn't this get stated, idk, when you accused me of being scum for basically making a TChill case? Was it because you wanted that mislynch to not get shot down?

I'm not going to talk about mafia theory unless it's immediately relevant to what I'm saying because talking about mafia theory is boring and distracts from what's important. I'm definitely going to talk about mafia theory when I'm super-busy.

This massive blowback tells me "you're on the right track, don't ass this up"

What the hell? Just a few hours ago you acknowledged my request was fair and you definitely haven't responded to the two examples in #3182 since.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma's doing the same thing as in our last game (Penguin Mafia Redux). Similar plan. He just seems townier here, I didn't see it until now.

[Ranmaru]

If he hammers instant lynch him tomorrow.