Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Auro]

I'm talking about a decision point at N1, not relatively *right after the soft*.

Even then, my argument wasn't that they'd only not NK him because they'd try to mislynch him, it's that the gamestate seemed to head towards him claiming.

[Auro]

this was fun tho

Oh definitely!

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Not protested what? Moving off when you see a TPR soft as scum, you don't see the benefits of that from a dayplay perspective?

werne't one of you just arguing with me that scum would have kept on to try to see if they could mislynch him?

That would be me, and I was just trying to figure out what implications acryon backing off the allo wagon had, and I've already said it's a moot point if acryon truly didn't see the soft, but you keep hounding me about it as if the conclusion of the argument is going to help you read us but like... it wasn't a fully formed thought when I said the thing, I was just posting something off the top of my head about who looked the most suspicious around the time the allo wagon deflated, so I don't really know what you want from me here or how that's going to help sort us.

- Smarter

[BBmolla]

Hey all I'm here and relatively free today, hit me up if you wanna talk about something

[BBmolla]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

unfortunately I feel it's gotta be you :/

^town doesn't make this post

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@skitter:

It should be fairly clear I scumread your slot strongly on D1 based on our interactions. I was actually waiting to see what Titus posted about your slot since I agreed with bbmolla and thought the scumteam might be you/titus based on how you defended rex from me in D1, and the reactions from the two of you now as well as titus’ lack of interest in pushing your slot seem to align with that.

i mean, why haven't you pushed me this whole time?
i was under the impression we came to a mutual understanding that we misunderstood each other
if this has been simmering under the lid the whole time why haven't you brought it up or tried to address it until other people starting throwing my name in the mix?
like day2 has been slow as anything, the last like three irl days would have been a good time to try to resolve this, no?

No, I came to the conclusion that me directly pushing you in a 1v1 wasn't going to achieve anything besides wallposts. I tried to put aside my D1 read on the basis that it was emotional, but my point is that it shouldn't be a surprise that you're not in my townreads.

I have been trying to engage your slot today in a more rational way in an attempt to sort you, the same way I've approached everyone else, so it's false to say that I "haven't pushed you this whole time." See all of these:

Spoiler: Quote wall of trying to engage with skitter to sort slot

What’s your read on Karnage?

- Smarter

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

so that we wouldn't be having this conversation ....
and even with the cop-bloc we were having wagons earlier on in the day, i could vote someone without ultimately ending up on the lynch wagon

Uh I don’t think you’re understanding my question.

Wouldn’t scum who saw the soft just let the wagon go so they can use the NK? What need is there to force a claim?

So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

that is a ... remarkably backwards way of looking at acryon's vote there

also have you two discussed the flip at all together?

A bit but not much.

What about it do you think is backwards? It seemed like acryon was getting cold feet about a nom wagon as we got close to deadline and he tried to restart an Allo wagon. It’s possible that at that point scum could have pushed a deadline Allo lynch without getting a hardclaim. Do you disagree?

- Smarter

VOTE: karnage

Are you scumreading Karnage?

You basically didn't mention him after your pressure vote yesterday and now presumably he is your strongest scumread, can you explain your progression there?

- Smarter

Thirdly, as I've said, I've been looking at Titus to see if there's a possibility of you/Titus team and I even asked her about your slot in order to see her reaction about you.

Spoiler: Quote wall of asking Titus about skitter slot

Why do you consider GL to be voteparking but not skitter?

- Smarter

Why do you consider GL to be voteparking but not skitter?

- Smarter

I think this is it.

I consider GL's votepark more of a scummy votepark. Skitter looks more like a tunnel than a lazy votepark if that makes sense from just eyeballing the VCA.

Thanks. Can you explain what about the VCA makes them seem different to you?

- Smarter

nsg took the pagetop away from me

Anyway I think my original point still stands - skitter and GL have made similar pushes on the same people since late D1, starting with karnage/nom yesterday and continuing with karnage today. I don’t really understand how one is lazy voteparking but not the other.

- Smarter

I did this because, as I said before, hard pushing you like I did D1 almost 100% turns into another 1v1 which I think would just give me an even more emotional read on your slot. Again, I may be taking a more circuitous route but it's misreppy to claim that I haven't touched your slot at all or that my willingness to lynch you was coming out of nowhere. Like, all I'd said was that I could be willing to lynch you when Auro directly asked me about lynching you. It should not have come out of left field that you're in my lynchable pool - I haven't done or said anything that implies that I'm townreading you. Now that I've seen your and Titus' reactions, I do think you are probably the scumteam though.

Fourthly, I've had some shit happening in RL and hadn't posted much anywhere.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Multiple people were suggesting allo as a lynch and I’m pretty sure that could have been the lynch if I hadn’t been opposing it. I think it’s false to say allo wasn’t a viable wagon towards the end of the day because he definitely was. And acryon was one of the people suggesting it.

no, he really wasn't?
he had already softed and besides for a throw-away vote by acryon nobody was really talking about him at that point

like i don't think that scum!acryon thinks that that's going anywhere really

can you update me on your reads plz?

(and i guess if you/smart have a difference of opinion somewhere, say that too?)

See 1652 for how I feel about this entire line of questioning. It seems like you're pushing me because you think my line of thinking is erroneous? Or do you think it's actually scummy for me to be pointing this out? I don't think I'm wrong about the viability of an Allo wagon at day-end (and even if I were wrong, why would I be making this up? to push acryon on false pretenses?). Since you are so adamant that I'm wrong, I went back and found these posts, which all occurred

after

the Allo soft, to show that the Allo wagon was still fairly viable even after his wagon collapsed.

Spoiler: Quote wall

I think we need to hang Allo or Eve, and check nom/Karnage off the wagon if we don't get scum.

couldn't we just have voted allo and went to day 2.

bbmolla who's scum?

One of Allo/Eve + a skilled scummer

My preference is to lynch Allomancer.

I believe I had considered your reasons myself at one point beforehand, and dismissed them. I would strongly say he belongs to the cop bloc lol.

Oh? What made you think the reasons shouldn't be considered? If you're right then I'd rather lynch allo still.

- Smarter

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't really wanna lynch Nom can we lynch Allo or Eve?

Nom should be the lynch and if not, Allo

I'm not into a Karnage lynch. As much as my gut is telling me Allo could be town, I think due to time's sake we have to go there.

I agree with a die roll, but are we sure we don't want people like Sauce/Karnage in the copbloc as well?

I don't see how the Allo situation gets better tomorrow either, so at the very least we remove a distraction.

We definitely don't need GL on the wagon for an Allo lynch. Plenty interest there, especially this close to deadline.

If we lynch someone other than me it should be Eve, Karnage, allo or skitt.

My opinion is back to Nom goes in the copbloc we lynch Allo.

and here's the post where he actually votes allo at deadline.

Really unfortunate I can't be around past 15 minutes from now. Sorry for any issues that causes.

VOTE: Allomancer

I think this is what needs to be done.

Sure, I'll agree with you that it would have been better for scum!acryon to vote for allomancer earlier, but 1) scum don't always do the 100% optimal thing! like saying "scum's best play would have been this" doesn't mean that that's what scum did; and 2) there were plenty of people who were willing to lynch allo at the end of D1 and he may have been hoping that his scum partner would help successfully swing the lynch there after his vote, or that him voting there and saying "I think this is what needs to be done" would make the Allo lynch feel like the only option that close to deadline. I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make about my line of thinking regarding acryon or the viability of a D1 deadline Allo lynch?

---------------
Reads, which I believe Smart and I are fairly aligned on:
GL
Auro
everyone else
skitter*
Titus

*Smart is not sure about your slot, probably somewhere around null/weak nulltown for him

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

unfortunately I feel it's gotta be you :/

^town doesn't make this post

Explain please?

- Smarter

[BBmolla]

heya Titus

I actually think you're pretty town here you're just following some faulty VC logic when the VCs this game are inherently borked due to us negotiating wagons. I don't think my play is fairly characterized as 'vote parking' or following onto lynches cause I was pretty vocal about Karnage throughout D1 as well and this is just kinda the lynch I want. Can you work with me on looking through Karnage's ISO and see whether you have reasons to townread there?

TLDNE/Skit, I think both of you all are town, I'll let you two continue to hash it out if it'll help you reach that same conclusion, but I just want it on the record y'all my townbloc and we're gonna win this game against Karnage and whoever the partner is

unfortunately I feel it's gotta be you :/

This feels like a nontown stream of thoughts, I've never as town been like "Oh this guy is one scum... oh no due to PoE the other has to be you " I've had that happen multiple times as scum where you're just mathematically making your scumreads and you end up having to scumread a player who you didn't want to, but if he genuinely believed Karnage was scum I imagine he'd have come to the conclusion of 1571 eons earlier than these posts imply.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I also have Auro and acryon above GL.

-Smart

[Atarashi Hajimari]

So when I sent the PM saying I'd replace in, I was starting to catch up on reading and I may or may not have spent 8.5 hours reading everything. Then I made the mistake of sleeping and I forgot all the points I was gonna bring up. So while I go skim back through a few ISOs to refresh my memory, I'll drop the summary of it here:

VOTE: Acryon

I don't know how this slot has slipped under people's radars but I'm really not seeing how this slot is town.

[Titus]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

unfortunately I feel it's gotta be you :/

^town doesn't make this post

Help me sort whether the hydra or Auro is his partner please. I'm leaning towards Auro. They both want to invalidate my VCA but Auro has some unique suggestions that make me favor him. His VCA discredit sounds like a robotic recycle of the hydra's complaints. He also objects to how I caught GL (with the VCA) while having GL in his scumpool. He's diverting attention onto Skitter while having enough distance for cya.

Thoughts?

[Titus]

I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

No. Just 1000% no.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I've probably forgotten stuff, but to summarize the reasons: I think people were onto a good lead in the early game pressuring Acryon and then it just kinda died and I still don't really know why. Since then he's just kinda parroted other people's ideas while simultaneously trying to low-key lynch the softed solo TPR in the game.

Spoiler: Acryon stuff

I think Karnage also screams town so far. Fairly straightforward posting.

Agreed.

I’m not really seeing the reasoning for town!nom.

I think a big cause of my uncertainty is the lack of push from acryon, who’s defending himself from GL and voting GL for it but didn’t even react/respond to nom’s comments on acryon’s post (which were in line with GL’s comments). The more I think about it, the weirder it seems.

- Smarter

Nom voted for me because of 107, which I could see someone having a hard time with, especially not knowing me. GL voted me for content before that. Different people, different reasons.

Nom voted for me because of 107, which I could see someone having a hard time with, especially not knowing me

Please detail on the "especially not knowing me" part.

This line especially I think is my personality showing: I'm maybe honest to a fault in mafia. I try to play the same as town or scum so I don't think it says much there, but if you were familiar with me, that post likely wouldn't ping you as much.

I think calling what I'm doing "scumhunting" at all would be an overstatement.

These two posts (primarily 190, but 187 a little bit as well) just come off as trying to hand-wave away pings from other people as "oh you just don't know me well enough". Really reminiscent of I think it was my second beginner game where someone did something extremely similar to this and was scum.

Acryon, your posts are not doing anything to change my mind. I apologize for misremembering the posting order/which post that nom had originally voted you for, but even in the most recent conversation, you were answering questions but not adding anything of substance or asking questions. As I said, I would expect town to be reaching out more and putting out feelers even on D1 - doesn't have to be "making a big case" like you're implying I said (also, way to put words in my mouth, because that is not what I said), but just engaging with others. And I'm not seeing that from you, it feels like you're being super passive in terms of interacting with other players.

I don't disagree with you as much on how the game should be played as I do your characterization of how I've played the game. Ideally we'd agree on both if we're on the same side (which I think we are), but c'est la vie. Moving on.

This also just doesn't feel genuine in any way. If I think someone is mischaracterizing the way I'm playing the game, I'm challenging that not just saying "oh well moving on".

If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it

is

going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.

1. I'm really not a fan of people making analogies like this that are (self-admittedly, and correctly admitted) bad without elaborating as to why it's an accurate analogy almost immediately after. It's a cheap distracting tactic from back in my high school debate days.

2. But to revisit the analogy anyway since other people seem to have liked it - we're ~1500 posts beyond the planting of this proverbial garden. Ask yourselves this question: what's come of this proposed scumhunting of Acryon's that pinged so many of you? The veggies have grown, ripened, and rotted back down to compost and literally nothing has come from it. Unless it's 'still growing', in which case GL's argument of acryon planting 'rocks instead of seeds' seems pretty likely.

142 from GuiltyLion doesn’t feel great. I’m always wary of people trying to paint a big picture based on a post or two early on. RVS stage is far from useless, but it typically doesn’t lead to these kinds of revelations.

what "big picture" do you think I was painting with that post? I was answering a question directed at me.

and would it change your mind if I showed you numerous examples from my past where town!me tries to make reads as quickly as possible? I hate RVS

Eh maybe. I put very little stock in anything meta-related, but it's good to know.

I really dislike this. Shades GL for trying to 'paint a big picture' from RVS. GL asks "hey what big picture am I painting?" and doesn't get an answer. This question never get answered, in fact.

I think trying to call someone out for "fake scumhunting" with my extremely minimal body of work seemed disingenuous.

what do you think of my blank vote on you?

I actually have less of an issue with a blank vote than a vote with what I see as bad reasons.

This doesn't actually answer skitter's question, but this one is admittedly pretty nitpicky.

Oh, and: Crayon, suppose I am scum, with the devious plan of forming a "townbloc" that lets me slip by.
I have never advocated for being on it myself, for starters. So, at the very least, I must be shoving my buddy in there (otherwise there's a 2/5 chance of a guilty which is just bad strategy).

Who do you think it could be? Or is it that I'm yet to add them?

This is silly. There's no guarantee that you can't change your reads, or that people will listen to them, and 2/5 chance of a guilty isn't so high that it makes no sense to run the risk as scum.

-Smart

That is true, but I'm not sure why this would ever be a strategy out of the gate.

For me, it's enough to back off for now. Auro isn't a town-read for me just yet.

This pings me as disingenuous and fake. If you aren't townreading Auro off of Auro's responses, why are you backing off on the pressure? What about his responses was sufficient to earn a relief from pressure if it's not that he seems like town?

Stuff that isn't included in the spoiler but I think is worth mentioning: I don't think his push on nom at the end of D1 has even a shred of genuine townieness to it. He's stated multiple points in this game that he doesn't put much weight on meta when the push on nom was

at least

50% meta related. It reads a lot more like scum!acryon pushing what looked like an easy EOD mislynch, backing off when other people were buying into the AtE (to be clear, I townread the AtE the entire way. I think I tend to townread AtE a lot more often than I don't so maybe I'm a little biased but also not the point), then hopping back on once other people picked it back up.

[GuiltyLion]

TLDNE/Skit, I think both of you all are town, I'll let you two continue to hash it out if it'll help you reach that same conclusion, but I just want it on the record y'all my townbloc and we're gonna win this game against Karnage and whoever the partner is

idk
i'm kinda having a hard time with limit here again, why are you townreading them again?

Lilith feels so brazenly honest in her reasoning and reads that I have a hard time imagining it coming from scum!her. The level of indignance at certain points in arguments, mindmeld on interpreting different game events and posts, hydra dissonance between her and Smart, all of it just feels very unlikely to be fake together holistically.

Also this is a much weaker point bc I haven't seen scum!Smart in some time but I think Smart as scum is a bit more pushy/agenda-y. Here he's playing to what I generally see in his town game of kinda just poking holes at different people's opinions and otherwise okay with taking a backseat to watch most of the game unfold.

[GuiltyLion]

heya Titus

I actually think you're pretty town here you're just following some faulty VC logic when the VCs this game are inherently borked due to us negotiating wagons. I don't think my play is fairly characterized as 'vote parking' or following onto lynches cause I was pretty vocal about Karnage throughout D1 as well and this is just kinda the lynch I want. Can you work with me on looking through Karnage's ISO and see whether you have reasons to townread there?

Titus can you work with me here?

[Eve]

VOTE: acryon

i'll sheep Atarashi

[Eve]

btw if Rex was scum doesn't he want allo to be wagoned until he has to claim unless he was extremely confident allo was traffic guy?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: acryon

i'll sheep Atarashi

Eh?

Do you have history with them?

-Smart

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

unfortunately I feel it's gotta be you :/

^town doesn't make this post

explain why "town doesn't make that post"?

[Eve]

no but what kind of masochistic scum spends 8.5 hours reading to form thoughts

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@Eve:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around you. Why are you sheeping me? Do you agree with what I posted or do you just wanna see where it goes/what happens?

Also can you just give me some general thoughts on the game thus far?

[Eve]

i haven't actually read it yet

i'll read it now

[Atarashi Hajimari]

no but what kind of masochistic scum spends 8.5 hours reading to form thoughts

To be fair I GM tabletop RPGs like D&D for friends so some say that I have masochistic tendencies.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

i haven't actually read it yet

i'll read it now

...