New York 180 (Endgame)

[T S O]

Yes, your flip will confirm, because I'm not lynching MathBlade on your word today.

[T S O]

What was your n1 track result?

[T S O]

well the good news is either abr or mb is scum

[T S O]

there is no bus driver who magically set this up, no framer either, mathblade. just making it clear.

[T S O]

we have at least 1 doc
a cop
a tracker
a deputy
a vig
and a full bulletproof

[T S O]

*crowd laughs loudly*

[T S O]

Yeah, ABR, I am warning you - if we lynch you and you flip Tracker and this result was a lie too the entire game will blacklist you. And they'd be right to.

[T S O]

goddamn it gm stop procrastinating

[T S O]

To be honest I don't really understand it either. A healthy dose of it is probably paranoia.

Well, could you try? Because in your rush to try to figure me out I've began to realise I haven't really figured you out.

I'm not in that much of a hurry to read you.

I'M DANGEROUS GM
I'M DANGEROUS

[T S O]

I HAVE WON GAMES
IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE
IT MAY EVEN HAPPEN AGAIN

[T S O]

I'll vote ABR whenever.

[T S O]

HOPE NO LONGER
YOUR MESSIAH IS HERE
READY TO SMITE SCUM AND TALK SHIT

[T S O]

(and I'm all out of scum)

[T S O]

From what I've seen of him over the last few pages, scummy? Some of his reversals in stances make no sense, but I know I can do that as town too. It's more that they seem influenced by pressure, and he doesn't seem so weak as to have to give in as town under pressure, so I don't see why town-dragon would do it.

[T S O]

faq you scum

[T S O]

BRAH

[T S O]

oh god that's a lot of effort elusive

[T S O]

it also signposts to scum exactly who to shoot

[T S O]

I was asking you a question.

[T S O]

do they though gm?

PEdit: Good post, Ozgin.

[T S O]

ABR let's not get into counting your mistakes, there has been more than one.

[T S O]

I don't get why people are having such problems reading me this game - I don't particularly find that I'm playing that kamikaze. If you want, I can take you lot out for coffee and maybe cake before we inevitably all declare how Town I am.

[T S O]

See, this is why I think ABR is town! But what you did was SO BAD that it's splitting town down the middle!

[T S O]

Whoooah, how did it come to this
Ohhhh, love is a polaroid
Better in picture
But never can fill the void

[T S O]

Scum already know who to shoot tho

Hypothetical question :

ABR is lynched.
Who's next?

For lynch? Depends on his flip. If scum, idk. If town, MathBlade.

[T S O]

Well, you never know.

I did dislike your play when I said it, though. Any ideas why?

[T S O]

I meant FAQ, gm.

[T S O]

You can certainly try to mislynch a Townie if you want, but besides being deceived by ABR's stunt there's no good reason for it.

If we have a Vig, taking ABR out would be ideal. However, do we know if there's one? If not, we can't count on that happening, and even if someone were to claim Vig we can't know if that person is really Scum instead.

when does this game start making sense

[T S O]

if MathBlade is Vengeful then why did ABR track her to Ellie? How has Math concluded that ABR has gone from 100% scum to town?

[T S O]

Because a Scum tracker is exactly the kind of PR you want to leave alive!

[T S O]

Why does this never happen when I'm scum? Why are town always so derpy when I'm town? Is it because of me somehow?

[T S O]

wait

what

[T S O]

Yeah, that's a surprisingly good analysis.

[T S O]

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

[T S O]

I can make no sense of these interactions unless Cheetory's right - and if Cheetory's right then I'd rather not give ABR the chance to get information for the scumteam tonight.

[T S O]

Can you actually define your read on me?

[T S O]

I told myself I wouldn't go here after having to sift through a mountain of shit the first time, but oh well.

[T S O]

oh my god

[T S O]

I already fucking explained why half of these are wrong - my attitude towards ABR was most specifically -not- go with the flow, I was the first push on Klingoncelt d1, your gut means nothing, refusing to give reads doesn't make me scum, calling stuff shit doesn't make me scum... out of 6 points the only one which I can't immediately refute completely is sheeping, which I'm presuming you're wrong on too as per usual.

[T S O]

So, let's get this straight: ABR got a result last night, which wasn't you, as town, and has decided to lie yet again... ?

[T S O]

Can we all just talk about MathBlade's what-the-fuck stance for a bit?

[T S O]

Cop, deputy, tracker, full bulletproof, doctor, probably another doctor, vig... no

[T S O]

TSO you said you were townreading ABR a while ago.
Why are you voting him over Math if you think I'm right? :/.

Because either he dies from vig or lynch and the vig could do better than shooting him.

[T S O]

I guess who I'd vote comes down to who will tell me the most with their flip.
. Klingon claimed VT, House softed neighbor with Klingon. Besides her reads, I'm not seeing any other benefit.
. NJ was a townread independent of his interactions and reads. His flip will only affect those pushing him.

Vote: Klingon

I'm not sure what connection you see between me and Ellie as there is no in-game connection

Really?

Does this make sense?

[T S O]

Okay.

1) I was not specifically asking you your intepretations - it was a wide thing to everyone. You don't have to give your opinion - I would probably prefer if you did not.
2) You having a FOS on me is literally the most irrelevant thing that's happened ever. Straight up. If I was scum I would feel no need to derail it because of its utter irrelevance to anything.
3) It's called a

fucking associative tell.

I was asking whether pisskop's reasons for voting Klingon over NJ make any sense, because if they don't, it would point to NakedJogger being scum. Just because pisskop flipped scum doesn't mean everything he posted was completely irrelevant.

[T S O]

Yeah, let's kill this NJ guy. He was defended by one too many.

VOTE: NakedJogger

Also, Math makes sense to me. This scares me a little bit. Am I getting better or worse?

Then, let's think more then one role can visit a player without causing death and for other purposes.

Hey town, are you going to wake up today? Or is this another lost cause?

Maybe MathBlade is a Bulletproof Townie with Watcher powers!!!

[T S O]

So, let's get this straight: ABR got a result last night, which wasn't you, as town, and has decided to lie yet again... ?

Yep However when I explain it plainly and you do but attack what is clear it is frustrating.

ABR even said so.

The vig could do better and shoot you as ABR is town.

The vig is never going to shoot me - it's likely the vig is going to shoot you. If I were the vig, I'd already have the action sent.

[T S O]

@TSO -- TSO is desperate to not vote NakedJogger.

Yes, that's why one of my most recent post was asking people to comment on a potential associative tell between NakedJogger and pisskop - because I desperately don't want NakedJogger to be lynched.

And, you know, the best way you can prevent someone's lynch is showing potential links between them and dead scum.

[T S O]

I think MathBlade -did- get tracked to Ellie last night. I think she doesn't want ABR to flip because she knows this is an actual result and if ABR flips Tracker she's dead the next day.

[T S O]

just get a fucking lynch I'm sick of this game

[T S O]

just get a fucking lynch I'm sick of this game

I'm tired of this spectactle of ABR and MethBlade, not of the game.

Unfortunately, that -is- the game right now.

just get a fucking lynch I'm sick of this game

It's not going to get any better if we don't lynch elusive and math out of it.

I agree MathBlade needs death very much.

[T S O]

I just want to let you know that no-one is listening to you.

[T S O]

And by the usage of "no-one", I am trying to clarify the size of the fuck I don't give about you interpreting my posts.

[T S O]

abr can you selfvote

[T S O]

I guess who I'd vote comes down to who will tell me the most with their flip.
. Klingon claimed VT, House softed neighbor with Klingon. Besides her reads, I'm not seeing any other benefit.
. NJ was a townread independent of his interactions and reads. His flip will only affect those pushing him.

Vote: Klingon

I'm not sure what connection you see between me and Ellie as there is no in-game connection

Really?

Does this make sense?

MathBlade derailed this line of questioning - but putting it out there because I want opinions.

[T S O]

Anyone voting No Lynch should be shot

[T S O]

wake go straight to the townpile

[T S O]

I don't even care anymore

[T S O]

[T S O]

That was to let TSO know how I feel about its actions right now.

For example, is it trying to say that NakedJogger is scum? If so why won't it vote NJ? Or?

IT'S ASKING PEOPLE THEIR FUCKING OPINION BECAUSE IT'S NOT SURE

[T S O]

thank you big man

[T S O]

I notice I have no scumreads. I need to get some.

[T S O]

Not happy about being lied to by Town, and losing Cop, Backup Cop, Vengeful, and Tracker.

The game's been ruined for me a bit because of the terrible plays that happened so far.

Ika, I'd like to replace out, please.

I like you, Wake, but this is fucking bullshit - everyone else is in the exact same position.

I notice I have no scumreads. I need to get some.

Why do you need to state this?
Why are previous scum reads no longer scum reads?
Why are none a scumread?
Why are you not doing an effort?

1. Because I have no scumreads.
2. Because they flipped town.
3. What are you trying to say here?
4. Because I literally

just said in that post

I was going to make an effort.

When I first read 3673, I thought it very odd. Thank you for articulating.

This feels a lot like scum-NS.

[T S O]

That's great and all, but what do you think of TSO right now?

I think I'm reserving judgment on him.

Are you scum, gm? Because if you're not, reserving judgement is a joke. If you think I'm scum, cool, if you don't, great, but having no opinion is silly.

[T S O]

I am fairly sure my evolution on ABR has context Cheetory hasn't quoted. Should do that tonight.

[T S O]

I don't know, I haven't done meta.

[T S O]

I don't think I've ever seen you as scum.

[T S O]

I am actually quite annoyed with Wake - he lurked through this shit, I didn't, and he's the one replacing out? I deserve to replace out with the shit I've gone through here.

[T S O]

Yes, the moment Cheetory's case stopped making sense was when he said I'd prefer town-ABR dead than SK-Math as scum.

[T S O]

Because he hadn't claimed yet?
ABR basically admits the copclaim was bullshit, thus implying that he's VT and TSO remains a believer in townABR.
ABR claims tracker and then suddenly TSO becomes much more interested in the lynch.

ABR claimed Tracker day one.

[T S O]

His stance on ABR switched immediately upon the claim, and if lying made him feel like ABR was more likely to be town, I don't know why he would reverse his stance on him at that point. It really feels to me like he was trying to push through a lynch on a PR that he legitimately believed. It was safe to defend ABR when he seemed like VT. The moment that he claimed a PR he was too dangerous to be left alive.

This is the most ridiculous thing ever.

[T S O]

My point is that if I was so scared of ABR-tracker then I would have gone for him when he claimed d1 as scum, no?

[T S O]

Can you also explain why I would want ABR dead when, if I was scum, I had him wrapped around my little finger to the point I was almost certain not to be tracked?

[T S O]

I am procrastinating on answering this since I feel at a basic level I don't really need to. I guess I might. I probably should.

[T S O]

Can you also explain why I would want ABR dead when, if I was scum, I had him wrapped around my little finger to the point I was almost certain not to be tracked?

Maybe to protect other scummates? You might have a point here, but that still doesn't explain why your read on him just randomly switched for no reason.

Then I would have influenced him to do that, given that I was one of his top 2 townreads.

[T S O]

I do have to agree you are approaching this in a pretty town way - if you were scum I would expect you to attempt to shout me down instead of being rational.

[T S O]

It's not really semantics, though.

Your argument is that I was scared of ABR-tracker and so voted him.
My response, as above, is that this doesn't make sense given the gamestate.

The obvious conclusion here is that I was not actually scared of ABR-tracker.

Are you going to change your argument in response to this? Because continuing on your current train of logic doesn't seem to make sense anymore.

[T S O]

I'm going to do my own meta on scum-goodmorning seeing as the reports are conflicting.

[T S O]

I have not really looked back to that time yet, but I will.

[T S O]

Actually, the point about the vig is completely relevant - our vig had "presumably" shot scum on night 1, which shows they are a competent player and shouldn't have to be limited to doing the policy work of the town.

The MathBlade kill was also optimal last night, because ABR did not retract his claim - thus, the vig has yet to really slip up, reinforcing my point.

[T S O]

if MathBlade is Vengeful then why did ABR track her to Ellie? How has Math concluded that ABR has gone from 100% scum to town?

Oh.
Ohhhhhhh.
I think I understand.

VOTE: MathBlade

ABR might still be scum, but I believe that he's a tracker.

Because a Scum tracker is exactly the kind of PR you want to leave alive!

Because a serial killer is the kind of role you want to leave alive?

wait

what

I'm reasonably confident that Math just doesn't give a fuck anymore because she knows that ABR is gonna flip some kind of tracker and then she's dead next.
If she hadn't slipped the whole bulletproof thing then maybe she could have played it off as her being vig.
I don't know why she assumed so quickly that ABR would be town just because he'd tracked her?
Unless I'm entirely off-base here in which case I have no fucking idea what's happening anymore.

Yeah, that's a surprisingly good analysis.

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

I can make no sense of these interactions unless Cheetory's right - and if Cheetory's right then I'd rather not give ABR the chance to get information for the scumteam tonight.

These are the key interactions surrounding what happened. I question MathBlade's weird motives. You respond with your explanation. I conclude it makes more sense than anything I'm thinking.

At this stage, MathBlade!SK is no longer a threat - we can lynch at our pleasure. Out of the two anti-town factions, one has been all but neutralised.

The danger now, for TSO at that stage, are the Mafia. I concluded ABR was indeed a Tracker from MathBlade's bad reactions.

I did not know if ABR was scum. However, I had began to consider the possibility that he was.

Lynching ABR over MathBlade had multiple advantages:

1) If ABR was scum telling the truth about MathBlade being SK, which MathBlade's reactions made possible, then ABR could potentially get his team another night of results. They could get lucky and track the Vig, for example. If nothing else, they'd confirm one player as not-Vig. As I've said, I was more worried about the Mafia than the SK at that point, so my main goal was denying them information.
2) ABR was divisive as fuck. He needed to go. If you read that portion of the game you can just see how angry and volatile the atmosphere is at his multiple lies. I actually got tired of pushing ABR and would have probably moved onto MathBlade if necessary just to get a flip. MathBlade's SK flip would not have remedied that atmosphere and he would still be polarising the game today. ABR's flip would and did.

[T S O]

And, yes, my faith in ABR had began to waver at that point. A mixture of annoyance, anger at lies and paranoia will do that to you.

[T S O]

Because we could have leashed MathBlade, whereas we couldn't leash ABR.

[T S O]

A mixture of annoyance, anger at lies and paranoia will do that to you.

At one point you said him lying made him more likely to be town. What made you change your mind?

A multitude of lies - and like I've said, paranoia etc.

[T S O]

Because I had slowly began to hate the game and didn't feel like playing it.

[T S O]

just get a fucking lynch I'm sick of this game

Anyone voting No Lynch should be shot

I don't even care anymore

[T S O]

Yes. I didn't just think "fuck I hate this game let's lynch ABR." I felt my logic made sense as well. This may have been me rationalising the easy option.

[T S O]

@ Dragonspawn, what's your read on NJ?

I've been saying he is scum from day 1. He has gotten worse.

Calling him scum isn't going to get you anywhere, I'm afraid.

[T S O]

Unless spontaneous lynches are a thing in this game - and with all the bullshit shenanigans that have came before this wouldn't surprise me.

[T S O]

!!!!!

[T S O]

16-4-1 seems relatively balanced - unless scum are powerful as fuck they have to have more than 3 members, and pisskop's role is kinda mediocre.

I don't think it's 15-5-1 but it could be.

[T S O]

Then again we have a shitload of PR's.

[T S O]

Ika said something in a dead PT recently about how he as a mod balances games. I'll look for it later.

[T S O]

VOTE: Nobody Special

[T S O]

"I am trying to pin down a motivation towards asking for a votecount."

Could you fake scumhunt any worse, NS?

[T S O]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

NS as scum, if you want meta.

[T S O]

Cheetory, you can get paranoid about Masquerade if you want. I don't mind.

If you want meta, my profile and then my games are exactly 2 clicks away.

[T S O]

I am trying not to snap here, but I am basically at the end of my tether in response to talking about me being scum and I'm not going to be doing that anymore.

[T S O]

VOTE: Nobody Special

"I am trying to pin down a motivation towards asking for a votecount."

Could you fake scumhunt any worse, NS?

Everyone should really be commenting on this.

[T S O]

Do you actually think there's particular motivation to be found in asking for a votecount over, I don't know,

any other post in the game?

I don't.

[T S O]

Aero you scumbucket for asking for a vc.

Sheesh.........................................

I wasn't calling Aero scum.

[T S O]

My self-restraint has greatly improved from yesteryear but this game constantly tempts it.

[T S O]

I think there's probably one scum in {gm, Aero} because of an uncharacteristic lack of doing -anything-.

[T S O]

Careful, dragonspawn, you need to get paranoid of me for no reason because I played well in Masquerade a bit back as scum. All the cool kids are doing it.

[T S O]

I want NS dead.

[T S O]

That's my prerogative for today, full stop.

[T S O]

i did look at pisskop's iso and i think it points to fa_q2 being scum both from his own and quoted content, though. if anyone wants to check up on that too that'd be fun we can talk about it together later

Go on?

[T S O]

VOTE: Nobody Special

"I am trying to pin down a motivation towards asking for a votecount."

Could you fake scumhunt any worse, NS?

Do you actually think there's particular motivation to be found in asking for a votecount over, I don't know,

any other post in the game?

I don't.

Dearest SilverWolf, here is why I want NS dead, found in my ISO if you haven't looked there yet.

[T S O]

Wow, TSO do I have to point out somethings to you from this Thread on why that might be a bad idea? What we should do is wagon analysis for all three (KC, Vikingfan, ABR) + the last VC on NJ. Since all were town, at least some on that must be scum. Can you do that? I might get to it tomorrow or Sunday probably should v\la though due to rl stuff.

Also, because I hadn't actually read the thread carefully post the VC. I did not ask for mod intervention. I also didn't click on any of NJ's links because of the obvious. That's all I will say on this issue till post game.

Do you want me to do it and then you to do it? That seems counterproductive.

I still don't understand why you're against the NS lynch.

[T S O]

jesus fucking christ

[T S O]

UNVOTE:

I'm sorry, I completely forgot based on that one shit post you made. blegh.

[T S O]

my god where do I go now

[T S O]

Townpoints to gm for that, I guess.

[T S O]

Well not until I'm dead but then it won't matter anymore? Or hunt me if you're not sure? Also, now that you're back. What is your take on Aeronaut\TSO?

TSO, do you have amnesia in this game because all of the drama? Even SW got it at least I think she did, so maybe ISO better?

You have asked me multiple things in this game. Not one. It is not my job to magically tell which one you're talking about.

Do not fucking snark at me, by the way.

[T S O]

i did look at pisskop's iso and i think it points to fa_q2 being scum both from his own and quoted content, though. if anyone wants to check up on that too that'd be fun we can talk about it together later

Go on?

[T S O]

I think I missed a page somewhere, I do not remember reading that.

[T S O]

Apparently not, I just missed that post.

[T S O]

VOTE: FA_Q2

[T S O]

That case is pretty good.

I think we would have eventually settled on FA_Q2 today at some stage, fwiw.

[T S O]

But that's specifically the point, FA. He -didn't- harddefend you. Softdefending like that is classic scum-scum interactions.

[T S O]

I feel the need to link a game.

[T S O]

VT

I know I'm not as valuable as a PR and prob won't be missed but I'm still town.

sorry my game play still needs work

The game was Newbie 1443. It's a short game. Basically I nailed Baezu-scum on page 2, and nearly got tricked by an early VT claim + AtE, before getting my shit together again and finally pushing home the Baezu lynch d1.

[T S O]

And, yes, before anyone says it, I understand Baezu is a different player. That's some impressive detective work. My point still stands.

[T S O]

Also also, I like how FA picks and chooses what he responds to on this last page.
TSO's newbie case against him is pretty bad and if he was legitimately mad at people pushing him, I think he would be pushing back on those points as well. The lack of pushback makes me think he feels awkward trying to directly interact with TSO/wants to make it seem like his points pushing for him aren't as bad as they are.
I think TSO/FA as scummates would kind of make sense.

Nah, this is just you wanting me to be scum badly.

[T S O]

Can someone talk to me about Cheetory? Because I've reached before when I've tunnelled as town, but my fucking god his latest stuff is like leaping a chasm.

[T S O]

also i've been toying with the idea of tso!scum. his treatment of the faq2 wagon and handling post-jump onto it kind of pings.

he's really good as scum too, so right now i'm mostly trying to distinguish my paranoia of that from any legit concerns i have.

I need to start doing worse as scum, this game has literally been one person after another saying this.

Please, do not let paranoia fuel your read on me.

[T S O]

Still support the FA wagon, his dying down is pretty null but I think it's still more likely to come from scum than town.

[T S O]

He's never going to do that, but like the wise old sage I am, I'll let your hope burn brightly until it's extinguished by the cold truth of experience.

[T S O]

My apologies, FA, but like the selfish hero I am, I was talking about his linking us together because you were... "afraid to interact with me" or some nonsense.

[T S O]

Maybe because I fucking explained stuff to you the first time, and it didn't change your views? I first beat your argument, then sought to talk to you about it non-aggressively, and you basically said "oh thanks for that" and continued pushing it anyway? The exact same thing? Why would I then waste my time "talking" to you again when you're obviously convinced you've caught the mighty scum-TSO who is SO good at this game that just about everyone has gone after him at some stage for paranoia?

[T S O]

VOTE: tso

didn't finish reading but i like this right now. a lot.

Okay, you've made your mind, go justify it now. Off with you.

[T S O]

Like, I'm not gonna lie, I probably was stretching a bit, and FA/TSO connection might actually be stupid because 4062 doesn't look like scum/scum level interactions, but holy shit the way TSO chose to engage that feels fucking gross.

"I was stretching, but I hated how TSO said I was stretching."

What the fuck, Cheetory?

[T S O]

TSO might have, but TSO and I aren't particularly interested in voting NS atm.

TSO has all sorts of problems with NS this game, by the way, but yes - the sentiment is correct.

[T S O]

Okay, I'm back, and not-mad.

[T S O]

I feel my manner of dealing with Cheetory this game has been completely fair. To lay it out in a semi-chronological manner:

Cheetory opens the day with a big-ass case on me, which is basically saying I immediately wanted ABR dead when he claimed Tracker d3.
I respond by explaining why that makes no sense.
He says that I am also discrediting anyone attacking me.
I go on to then explain how the crux of his case, quite literally, makes no sense.
Cheetory ...dismisses me addressing the core of his case being wrong as semantics.
I call bullshit on that. - in essence, winning the argument.

[T S O]

I don't just dismiss him after that, I attempt to explain my reasons, which even -I- barely remember, to him. There's a big string of posts if you want to look at them.

[T S O]

Hopefully the tone of this game will get better from here -.-..

@TSO

, can you pitch me what you believe is the difference between your scumgame and your towngame?
Would you also mind linking me a towngame or two? I want to make sure I'm not just getting caught up on general metatells rather than scumtells from metadiving.

@All else

, can everyone give me their read on TSO and why?
I don't entirely believe some of the stuff he was saying in response to me, particularly that he believed that we could leash Mathblade. I think that's reasoning he's putting forward in hindsight to overjustify why he was doing what he was doing. I asked him for specific reasoning as to why he wanted to lynch ABR over Math before deadline and there was no indication as to that being a part of the reason:

Because either he dies from vig or lynch and the vig could do better than shooting him.

Like, I just feel like his explanation today as to what he was doing on D3 feels too elaborate and thought-out for someone who was apathetic and disinterested in what was going on. I think he's trying to adjust to look better after having played in a scummy/sloppy manner. Why wouldn't he immediately responded to me with "I just didn't care that much after all the shit that had happened" instead of "these are all of the actual reasons why an ABR lynch made a bunch of sense that I didn't actually say before voting for him"? It just feels dishonest.

Furthermore, I've started doing a bit of a metadive and I'm seeing a lot of things from NY 178 that seem somewhat familiar to this game (being able to get angry at things, getting into big fights with people he perceives as being unreasonable). Given that he generally eluded everyone's detection as scum in that game, I'm curious as to what exactly is making him seem like he isn't scum to everyone right now?
Can someone with more meta experience with him give some thoughts on what his towngame is like as well?

This was the point where I realised I was completely wasting my time, and didn't respond anymore.

As well as that, he's also read NY 178, and apparently sees parallels. We're never told what these parallels are. We're never told if he's seen my towngame (I doubt he meta'd it).

[T S O]

That's cute.

[T S O]

My point is that if I was so scared of ABR-tracker then I would have gone for him when he claimed d1 as scum, no?

Can you also explain why I would want ABR dead when, if I was scum, I had him wrapped around my little finger to the point I was almost certain not to be tracked?

My point is that if I was so scared of ABR-tracker then I would have gone for him when he claimed d1 as scum, no?

There was also a copclaim? There were also more people in the game at that point?

Can you also explain why I would want ABR dead when, if I was scum, I had him wrapped around my little finger to the point I was almost certain not to be tracked?

Maybe to protect other scummates? You might have a point here, but that still doesn't explain why your read on him just randomly switched for no reason.

Can you also explain why I would want ABR dead when, if I was scum, I had him wrapped around my little finger to the point I was almost certain not to be tracked?

Maybe to protect other scummates? You might have a point here, but that still doesn't explain why your read on him just randomly switched for no reason.

Then I would have influenced him to do that, given that I was one of his top 2 townreads.

Okay, look, I'm not going to be able to realistically argue on a level this semantic. The core issue here is that you're being really sketchy with answering something that should be really easy to answer. If I'm misunderstanding something it shouldn't take 10-20 posts for you to clarify said misunderstanding.

It's not really semantics, though.

Your argument is that I was scared of ABR-tracker and so voted him.
My response, as above, is that this doesn't make sense given the gamestate.

The obvious conclusion here is that I was not actually scared of ABR-tracker.

Are you going to change your argument in response to this? Because continuing on your current train of logic doesn't seem to make sense anymore.

As far as I'm concerned I won this argument a while back, but if you feel I didn't, you get one post to show it.

[T S O]

As well as that, he's also read NY 178, and apparently sees parallels. We're never told what these parallels are. We're never told if he's seen my towngame (I doubt he meta'd it).

Lol. This is why you're full of shit. Here are the parallels I saw:

(being able to get angry at things, getting into big fights with people he perceives as being unreasonable)

If you actually gave a fuck about how I was perceiving you, you would have given me a towngame to look at or answering any of my questions, but instead you just kind of shrugged me off and said "do it yourself".

Isn't your case that I'm extremely concerned with how people perceive me, like you? If this is true, how does scum-TSO have any motivation to -not- give you a towngame? It would certainly have helped with your perception of me. Town-TSO certainly has motivation to do it - it's called "stop being a lazy shit and go look for one."

Cheetory opens the day with a big-ass case on me, which is basically saying I immediately wanted ABR dead when he claimed Tracker d3.
I respond by explaining why that makes no sense.
He says that I am also discrediting anyone attacking me.
I go on to then explain how the crux of his case, quite literally, makes no sense.
Cheetory ...dismisses me addressing the core of his case being wrong as semantics.
I call bullshit on that. - in essence, winning the argument.

Oh my fucking god this is hard misrep.
The core of my case is the CHANGE ITSELF AND NOT THE FACT THAT I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY YOU WOULD CHANGE. God this is so fucking bullshit because I know you're framing this in a way to make it look like I have no case when I do.

It's not that you simply can't explain it - I've shown that, as scum, I had no reason to do it, as ABR alive only benefited me. Your case falls to pieces right there because every single time you fail to explain this, and you attempt to paper over those cracks by yelling loudly that I'm scum, and you're willing to die for the cause to prove this.

If I can prove I had motivation not to do it, and you can't prove I did, who exactly do you expect to believe you?

He's tried a bunch of scummy ways to get me off his case, first he tried saying "oh man you're being real town about this" -buddying, then when I didn't stop there "oh mannnn more people are just getting on my case because of NY 178 blah blah blah" - AtE and now he's OMGUSing because he knows that if he keeps me around I'm going to start becoming more convincing and more people have expressed sentiment that we should off him. It's so clear to me. I was unsure for a bit, but now I'm 100% sold.

The way you initially approached it was quite town, actually. Let me quote what I said then:

I do have to agree you are approaching this in a pretty town way -

if you were scum I would expect you to attempt to shout me down instead of being rational.

Let me quote excerpts from your recent post:

You just want to make people calling you out look bad/stupid/scummy. That's entirely your goal right now and it's so fucking transparent.

If you actually gave a fuck about how I was perceiving you

God this is so fucking bullshit

Fucking. Pleaseeee sheep this. If I'm wrong then lynch me. That's how fucking sure I am that he's full of shit right now.

Lynch me or him. I don't care at this point. Just lynch him tomorrow.

You're doing

exactly

what I predicted scum would do in this situation. You're trying to shout me down. Your facade of rationality has vanished.

[T S O]

As far as I'm concerned I am slam dunking your case into the trash where it belongs.

[T S O]

Dragon why does TSO feel town to you.
Articulate it.

because his posts feel genuinely annoyed with the towns bad play. Scum wouldn't be genuine in the least.

Seriously? There's nothing fun about winning a game because the Town imploded.

I couldn't care less - a win is a win. I can link Faith Plus One's scum QT, where mollie was wtf-lynched as town on day 5, and me and Sthar gloated in the QT, if you want.

[T S O]

Though, I guess I'd probably fake being annoyed? So I'm not sure there's a point to doing so.

My annoyance here, however, is completely real.

[T S O]

Okay, let's clarify here:

Your big-giant ass case and scumread on me is based mainly on my ABR stance d3. Leaving aside the fact that ABR had previously claimed Tracker and I hadn't gone after him that time, which

also

invalidates your case:

You can't show any scum motivation for it.
I have shown my motivation as town for it, which basically was apathy and anger. I have also shown posts and stances backing this up. You've vaguely disputed the authenticity of these without doing... well, anything to show that.

Is it hard for you to understand why I am frustrated? You literally have zero interest in updating your stance. You say I didn't give a shit about you, but

I did.

I first showed you how your case was invalid. That's the threshold you're saying scum-TSO didn't cross. THEN, I went onto to actually talk with you as an equal about it. After pages of this, of me giving up my time pretty needlessly, you then went on to not analyse any of it, throw it out the window, and regress to step one.

And

I'm

the one being unfair.

[T S O]

I think it's unfair in general that I feel like I'm right here and I just don't know how to combine the words to make it make sense.

If the only place it makes sense is in your head, it probably doesn't make sense.

[T S O]

FA, still waiting on those reads/content/something at all.

[T S O]

I'm in two minds about Cheetory - his attempt to yell me down was scummy, his resigned tone on the end of the last page was townish, but that only came after I pointed out that yelling was what I'd expect scum-Cheetory to do. Is he playing to me, or is it legitimate resignation? I don't know.

[T S O]

"oh fa is scum"
"wait no"
"oh tso is scum"
"wait no"
"oh fa is scum again"

What are you doing, Marquis?

[T S O]

Have you read Street Racers? I'm aggressive there, and I'm town.

I'm just aggressive in general really.

[T S O]

I don't deny I'm aggressive towards people scumreading me, but I don't understand the scummy tilt you're getting off it.

[T S O]

I'm here, I'm here, you can all stop worrying.

[T S O]

I'm going to say exactly what I said in Completely Ridiculous: one scum lynch. That's all we need. The game will fall open if we get it.

I choked in Completely Ridiculous like fuck and I'd dearly love to redeem myself for that fuck-up.

[T S O]

There were extenuating circumstances, like no-one helping me in 5-man LyLo, but the point remains that all we need is one scum lynch.

[T S O]

I don't like Marquis' read progression at all - I don't have a particular issue with him jumping around, I often do the same, but his thought process is completely opaque and has been in everything he's done so far.

[T S O]

I would still like to give him a day to figure his shit out because he's a good player. One day. If I'm shot, hold him to that - it's plenty of time for him.

[T S O]

goodmorning reminds me of me, I guess? I'm not completely sure. I have felt mildly uneasy about goodmorning all game, I can't really pinpoint it, but something is a little off there.

[T S O]

Kitz appears to be delighted we're townreading them - newsflash, sweetheart, it doesn't matter if people think you're town if you end up losing.

[T S O]

I have not really read Ozgin's stuff - I think I liked one of his posts once? No real opinion. I'll get one.

[T S O]

I'm going to say exactly what I said in Completely Ridiculous: one scum lynch. That's all we need. The game will fall open if we get it.

I choked in Completely Ridiculous like fuck and I'd dearly love to redeem myself for that fuck-up.

so where do we start for that one lynch?

FA_Q2.

[T S O]

I like the names on the FA wagon a lot more than those on the Marquis wagon.

FA_Q2 -is- being lynched today, and there's towncred available - the only question is whether scum have the guts to bus him or not.

[T S O]

My trust in your alignment this game is dimensions away from what it would need to be for me to believe that without significant proof.

[T S O]

I haven't made a readslist.

I disagree with the idea because this town is too dysfunctional and angry to pull it off - what needs to happen here is we all push a scum suspect and hopefully multiple reads converge onto one.

[T S O]

I'm home alone sick, so I have plenty of time to talk about this game.

[T S O]

I am considering a hard reset here.

[T S O]

Holding the intent to hammer, just in case Kitz isn't really sure about it.

I'm waiting for FA_Q to get a chance to really speak. I really don't like the "Whatever, blegh" attitude he has those (like in posts 4000 and 4014), I also don't get the contradiction here either, where he defends Wake by saying (basically) "What scum would replace out of a winning game?" followed by "Yeah, I think Wake is scummy..." It just doesn't add up.

This sounds like fake sympathy to me.

My least-favorite FA_Q post is probably this one, where he puts ABR at L-1 because (I am paraphrasing his attitude at that point) "Fuck it! Town lost anyways, who gives a fuck, right?! Thbbrrrrrrttttttt".

All in all, I don't really like FA_Q's posts because they're either null or grossly apathetic to the town situation.

I'm not sure if this makes me want to lynch Ozgin over FA_Q2.

[T S O]

Actually, his putting ABR to L-1 post was horrendous - back to wanting FA dead.

[T S O]

I thought his reaction to the wagon was P town. Also, most of the jumps on that wagon were crap. Cheetory literally said "Whee, Momentum!"

Also, TSO you say you like the names on the wagon but right now its Cheetory who you've been shouting at for 20 pages, Goodmorning who you fought with tooth and nail D2, and Nobody Special whose been lurking out of his mind.

Can you really say you like the names on that wagon?

Cheetory is becoming more and more likely to be town again, unless I'm vastly underestimating his capacity as scum. Nobody Special is straight-up town - I won't be going into details, sorry. Goodmorning could be scum, but her game here could also be scum. I can't call her town for sure.

Is Cheetory even voting FA?

[T S O]

Well, I'm not going to share it because if I'm right there's a very good reason not to share it and if I'm wrong it'll make me look stupid, which is not conducive to the ego I'm trying to build up here.

IOW, more useless shit.

You are worthless math and you do need t be lynched but ABR comes first here:

VOTE: ABR

THIS PLACES HIM AT L-1

Town is fucked this game with all the crap play and constantly getting our PR's killed. Math and ABR have essentially destroyed any chance that we have to actually scum hunt.

This post is really bad.

[T S O]

Even if Cheetory didn't justify that I wouldn't care, Aero - we need a lynch soon. This game is melting into apathy.

[T S O]

Everyone, get your fucking vote on someone.

[T S O]

I'm sorry, Cheetory, it doesn't make sense unless you know certain stuff, and explaining it here is extremely pro-scum.

[T S O]

Well, I'm not going to share it because if I'm right there's a very good reason not to share it and if I'm wrong it'll make me look stupid, which is not conducive to the ego I'm trying to build up here.

IOW, more useless shit.

You are worthless math and you do need t be lynched but ABR comes first here:

VOTE: ABR

THIS PLACES HIM AT L-1

Town is fucked this game with all the crap play and constantly getting our PR's killed. Math and ABR have essentially destroyed any chance that we have to actually scum hunt.

This is him absolving himself of responsibility for the ABR lynch, and makes me feel he knew ABR was going to flip town.

This post is really bad.

[T S O]

Hmm, let's do a compromise.
The lynch is leaded and followed with by the most towny person.
If that player we all decide is the most towny decides a lynch, we'll follow.
Obviously we can't think of ourselves as towny.

The most towny out of the whole bunch is Wolf in my opinion.

This game has seen incredibly bad ideas, including people fakeclaiming multiple times - this idea is right up there with them on a scale of "We should never ever do this. Ever."

[T S O]

"TSO is town, but I'd like him to flip." Oh, yes, fantastic idea.

[T S O]

Well, I'm not going to share it because if I'm right there's a very good reason not to share it and if I'm wrong it'll make me look stupid, which is not conducive to the ego I'm trying to build up here.

IOW, more useless shit.

You are worthless math and you do need t be lynched but ABR comes first here:

VOTE: ABR

THIS PLACES HIM AT L-1

Town is fucked this game with all the crap play and constantly getting our PR's killed. Math and ABR have essentially destroyed any chance that we have to actually scum hunt.

This is him absolving himself of responsibility for the ABR lynch, and makes me feel he knew ABR was going to flip town.

This post is really bad.

It was not bad - it was fact. ABR, if he still persisted in this game, would be bringing it down and suspicion would have never left him. Nothing that he claimed at any time would have been trustworthy. Hell, he hammered himself and never revealed his actual PR results (a violation of the general rule of thumb that you must play to your win condition) and you are claiming that me calling his ass out for the damage it did is bad. There was ZERO scum hunting going on with math/ABR taking over the entire conversation. He needed to go, period.

Whatever TSO.

Sorry, it's not my fault I'm getting scum lynched today.

Actually, it really is, but let's not discuss that right now.

[T S O]

Rather apathetic about this game at the moment.

I would rather you not say this, even if you feel it. Thanks.

You need to vote someone, your top scum suspect. Now.

[T S O]

I'll admit I had forgotten - excellent work.

[T S O]

Nope.

Nobody Special, if FA flips scum, I will be surprised and disappointed if I die tonight. Understand?

[T S O]

Sorry, but I have no intention of dying right after I crack the game open.

[T S O]

FA scum.

[T S O]

If FA does flip scum I expect to be a nightkill choice for the way I pushed this wagon.

If FA doesn't flip scum NS can do whatever he wants.

[T S O]

I'm not sure why you can't be more subtle, tso.

I don't want it to be ambiguous - if FA flips scum and I do die tonight I can put my hand up and honestly say I did everything I could for a townwin - lynch scum and direct other stuff correctly. It's as simple as that.

[T S O]

I understand.

Thank you.

elusive i thought you claimed vig? what

let's not discuss this marquis

[T S O]

That's not a Vig kill.

[T S O]

I am starting to doubt the authenticity of the Serial Killer as well - one night of 3 kills out of 5 nights has me skeptical.

[T S O]

4337 is ridiculous, dragon, what are you doing.

[T S O]

I don't understand what's going on with the scum kill - most of the kills have seemed like Vig targets, such as MathBlade.

[T S O]

My theory is: the reason Nobody Special was kept alive until now was because scum didn't know about him. Once they figured it out, they shot him. It would not have been difficult to figure it out - but this does make me feel better about goodmorning-town, given she knew for multiple days.

[T S O]

I mean, if I was scum, I cannot imagine the scumteam who would shoot MathBlade over a Doctor. It certainly wouldn't be one I was on.

[T S O]

Voting for scum.

Nothing has changed since yesterday other than the fact that it's obvious she knew ns was a doc.

What's ridiculous is that town lynched fa when it was obvious by the end that he was town. And now we ignore scum that rubs it in our faces.

This is very true - she did know NS was a Doctor. What doesn't make sense is why she thought it would be a good idea to delay killing him for 3 days while he potentially blocked her team's kills.

[T S O]

I want to spontaneously lynch Aeronaut I just do

[T S O]

I don't know. I just read a recent post of his and the idea suddenly came to here that I don't and I haven't ever really felt Aero is really in this game and really wants to kill scum. He reminds me of me when I play scum sometimes, just chugging along and posting enough to get by, not attracting attention.

It could just be me, but I'd like others to think about it. Yes, gm, you too.

[T S O]

Scum are usually a lot more rational than they're given credit for.

I would bet a significant amount of money goodmorning got that crumb.

[T S O]

@TSO, as someone who knows your scumgame, that's not an accurate representation of yours.

It has been.

VOTE: dragonspawn

goodmorning goes up into town, unrelated to dragon's things.

tso is nullscum again. part of me thinking he was town end of yesterday was related to me being hugely overconfident about fa_q2 scum. i feel like a lot of his recent posts now in hindsight go along with that, like he's pushing easy targets that town has already made a case on or driving a lynch on. just... his recent attacks and scumreads seem to be pushing easy target after easy target.

actually i kind of really want to just lynch tso but nobody's probably up for that.

pedit oh my god that response pings as honest town though gahhhhhhh

UNVOTE:

...recalculating............ this is.....

why do i get the feeling that we just have a lot of town outclassed by scum in experience at looking town?? shinobi, tso? i could see those two easily driving a scumteam.

i'm just going to get rid of my do-not-lynch list entirely and go for the easier, less-potential-disaster option between those two. there's an added benefit in that i don't remember any significant reads on or from him or things he's done. scum removing himself from significant interactions? likely

VOTE: shinobi

Fully support a Marquis wagon at this juncture, will probably push it sooner or later.

Wonder what that'll do to your reads, Marquis.

Marquis are you going to call me scum for bullshit reasons again?

You know how well that worked out for you last time.

Show us?

Yo, if you guys are actually going to suspect me then at least have the balls to question me instead of playing around the possibilities behind track results.

This is a good response.

@T S O -- Why do you say you doubt there's a Serial Killer, exactly? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, if there's only one scum team (Which we have no evidence to support a second team, either), then unless there were TWO vigilante's night one, which seems unbalanced and unlikely in a normal game of mafia, then there

has

to be either a Serial Killer or a Werewolf team, and with this few players and only one anti-town kill (pisskop), then I don't see why a Serial Killer is unlikely?

Because there have been 4 nights and one kill in multiple nights where there should be

at least

2 constantly.

Also, what happened to the TSO/Cheetory conflict? Why did that die out so easily? I'm a little behind (a few pages, I just skimmed from the start of the day to here), but I feel like there's almost no TSO/Cheetory rub anymore and that's kinda strange to me.

Actually, one of my current tinfoil-hat theories which is beginning to gnaw at me is that one of the conduits to Nobody Special's death was scum realising - and Cheetory had a moment where I refused to discuss it and that could have tipped him off.

At the same time, it was beginning to get extremely obvious - that's the counterargument going back and forth in my head.

I've backed off of gm for the moment.

Fair, but why

did

you think she was scum, exactly? Be spiecific, please?

Ask your neighbor.

What the fuck does this mean?

[T S O]

Wouldn't it be apropriate for the Oneshot Vigi to already claim since he's useless anyway now?
So fucking confused.

No, because he becomes conftown in a town of many not-confirmed players and gets shot tonight.

[T S O]

Ozgin is not in a neighbourhood.

[T S O]

Because I have seen no evidence to the contrary, and I do not randomly assume people are neighbours for no reason.

[T S O]

What interests me is how -you- know this.

[T S O]

Can you quote this for me? I cannot believe I completely missed it.

[T S O]

...SilverWolf?