Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

[Klick]

There's no chance you're town and make that post

[Klick]

There's no chance you're town and make that post

I dunno I feel the same way about this post

I feel like every post you make towards me is a cheap shot and I think you're town and I'd really appreciate it if you could stop.

[Klick]

As for my own thoughts on Titus, I've felt bad about her IRL circumstances but still ultimately felt she could be mafia in this game. Recently I am considering what Save The Dragons was saying about their posts about mech maybe indicating that they are town. Not sure either way right now.

UNVOTE:

Went ahead and skimmed through your ISO. You're very likely town in this game

I'm interested in who you and your team are currently suspecting and why

Time for sleep

I think I need to make some tough calls on removing people from my townreads because I'm not sure who is mafia right now. I was townreading Feysal yesterday, and before it was cool to do so, but started scumreading DragonEater for what I felt were good reasons near the end of the day - that didn't work out.

For town right now I have Black, You (Klick), Kuribo/Ircher based on claims (I always had a positive impression on Kuribo, not sure if I voiced that, but I didn't like Ircher's slot), Frozen Angel, Pink Ball
And then a tier below that but still not interested in eliminating right now: Firebringer, Save The Dragons
And going back and forth with Thestatusquo (Sometimes I feel they can be mafia but then sometimes I feel they make posts that make me think otherwise. And I'm not sure why they'd put me at null instead of agreeing with me being mafia but maybe that is too focused on myself)
And then I have Drixx low for their own content which I am not a big fan of except that they are going back and forth on Titus and their interactions don't feel like two mafia. And GuyInFreezer who is really uninspiring and I feel could easily be mafia. Actually now that I am writing this out I should really be pushing this slot and am not sure why I have been giving them so much leeway.
And then Titus at the bottom. I feel they are being obstinate and purposely not changing their point of view because it would be hard to come up with new organic thoughts as mafia.

Spoiler:

So far the people I’m not townreading atm and/or needs to be sorted are

{Dunn, TSQ, FA, Black, Drixx, Feysal, Klick}

Assuming 3 scum

Hey that’s not actually that bad
I thought I would be much behind

Subtract Feysal and Drixx

I get Dunn TSQ FA Black Klick

Out of those 5 TSQ is the greenest
This is actually becoming spicy PoE list ngl

GiF why am I in your poe list? Give me a short explanation.

GiF why am I in your poe list? Give me a short explanation.

I think I have better chance at reading you correctly at later game days than D1

Spoiler:

im just outting my role yesterday.
as i said before the flavr was corrupt judge
i basically get to target two people and then they can't target each other the following night.

i asked the mod to confirm if that means that it would only block actions between the two on night 2 and i was told yes. So i couldn't use it to prevent a kill. Unless i can predict a whole other night in advance. Even if it worked last night i didn't target feysal so its w/e

ohh and also the two people i target are informed they are visited by an arbiter when i visit.

Firebringer can potentially be confirmed town if one of their night 1 targets got a targeting role that allows them to tell whether their ability works or not.

This role can't be used to block the kill because your target is informed and mafia can have a different member perform the kill if you target them.

There's something we're missing here. I am becoming leery of the mass claiming the more we get into it.

If the roles claimed are correct there could be as many as 6 conf. town right now just on being able to be confirmed to have taken an action with a role. This simply can't be the setup. Scum has to have some way to fuck with this.

As far as I’m aware from all the claimed role lovers are the only hardconfirmable ones

Scum prob has something like roleblocker to mess with things

So here is something that is of interest to me. In the first set of spoilered quotes GuyInFreezer has a PoE list of 5 players on day 1, and goes on to say that TSQ is the "greenest". We are looking at a game with 3-4 mafia, probably leaning towards 4 being more likely, and GuyInFreezer calls it a PoE list in their own words. I go on to ask them why I am in this list, and they respond that they have a better chance of reading me correctly on later games days.

In the second set of spoilered quotes I show my own post where I explain how Firebringer can be confirmed and GuyInFreezer I feel ignores my post completely in their post shown here.

So my assertion here is that GuyInFreezer, as town, should be paying more attention to me given what they said on day 1 and their supposed closing PoE. Instead they seem to be completely ignoring me... and let me remind you that I am not only in his PoE, but was on an incorrect elimination the previous day. So to me, it doesn't make sense that GuyInFreezer is still coasting and... just straight up not reading my posts. They don't care at all. And I think that points to them being mafia.

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

This is a good start
I read these posts and believe that Dunn has put legitimate solving thought into them

[Klick]

Like wtf is performative solving?

That's just a cheap method to dismiss solving that's town because it looks good and argue scuminess is town.

You're telling me that Dunn isn't solving
You haven't made an argument for this
I see solving in Dunn's ISO, it's not *obvious* but if you're actually looking instead of confbiasing the fuck out of your argument you should be able to see solving
You're not looking hard enough and I think it's because you're scum

Show me Dunn aolving. I have asked several times. You know damn well proving his posts are hollow requires understanding the bulkshit ppl put forth. Hollow posting is like porn.

Hollow posting is also not actually scum indicative!

[Klick]

Point me to some town games of Dunnstral's where you didn't feel he was being hollow in the way you feel he's being in this game

[Klick]

Also I keep going back to this post

So I totally misunderstood you.

UNVOTE: GuyInFreezer

Will think on this more later. Firebringer's role already went off and can't be retroactively roleblocked but I guess the two players they have targeted can be. And there is no way for those two players to know who each other are without claiming. (And no guarantee that those players are even town)

I kinda wonder if my “you misunderstood my one post” and “hi I played house flipper” was enough for him to unvote me there.

The misunderstanding undermined my whole point in my other post

This whole saga demonstrated actual attempts at solving GIF followed by an unvote that was cast for reasons actually related to said solving!

[Klick]

There's no chance you're town and make that post

I dunno I feel the same way about this post

I feel like every post you make towards me is a cheap shot and I think you're town and I'd really appreciate it if you could stop.

You're so lucky I'm trying to shift my meta to being less toxic to my scum reads

My whole deal toward you is like a one on the scale

I read you as scum. You calling that "cheap shots" is just you trying to neutralize that because you know deep down you don't want me on your back.

You asking me to stop reading you as scum isn't going to happen because you fucked that up when you drew a scum role PM.

You want me to back off? Then quit flailing and give me your god damn blood. Only the purity of the flame can absolve you.

You're wrong, you have a poor read on me based on me not looking how you want town to look instead of how town actually looks, and you can either get your head out of your ass or take one step closer to losing this game.

[Klick]

4262 - I can't believe you just said that. Hollow posting is literally what scum do. To say it's not scum indicative is baffling.

No, most scum (particularly skilled players) go to great lengths to make their posting NOT look hollow. Town post what they want.

[Klick]

This argument isn't helping and it's the second time you've made it.

And it actually pisses me off because it's condescending as fuck so I'm telling you knock it off.

Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Don't be condescending as fuck to me if you don't want it returned.

[Klick]

are people arguing that Titus could be a Jailkeepr scum role and that she also rolled an amnesiac JK role. Cause i feel thats less likely than if she is scum she just has the jailkeepr role and pretending its amnesiac

but i want to stop with mech

Ping
I want you/your team involved in this conversation in some form

[Klick]

pLaY sTuPiD gAmES

Buddy you already rolled that dice when you got my attention

Your prize is a one fucking way ticket to hell

If it means not having to deal with town players intentionally pissing me off then I'll take it

[Klick]

That happened to me earlier with an unvote lol

[Klick]

@3602

Post 1: No Conclusion. Hedge. No effort to solve which way.

Why do town post conclusions and not scum

Post 2: 3605 is a case. I'll give you that. But where is the effort to go through why GiF ignored him supposedly. Where is Dunn's follow through? Just posts a case and no analysis. He just backs off.

Why do town actively assert their opinions and not scum

[Klick]

hopefully nobody spits in my face again,

Something our jobs have in common

I appreciate the re-think. Willing to chat through reads if that's something that would help.

[Klick]

Bella still agrees that Titus is just scum
And Bella is always right

[Klick]

4262 - I can't believe you just said that. Hollow posting is literally what scum do. To say it's not scum indicative is baffling.

So in a past game (Not Quite Normal Multiball 2) I asked Titus (Nashville Dreams) what she had done in the game that she wouldn't do as scum. She gave me this answer.

As for 11692, I don't feel I have a townrange or a scumrange. It's more about my relationships. So I'm not going to pretend there's a magical towntell for reading me.

Important disclaimer: Titus was scum in that game, and so had incentive to lie about her answer. But I think it was a true statement and reflects what she actually feels about her own scum game vs her town game. Titus can feel free to correct me if that's wrong.

What I don't understand is how Titus can be of a mindset that 'scum make hollow posts', when she is aware that's not the case

based on her own approach to playing as scum.

Is she saying that players that

aren't her

make hollow posts? She seems to be positing that scum *by nature* make hollow posts. Why is she the exception to that rule?

My interpretation is that the 'scum make hollow posts' thing is nonsense being used to justify pushing through her agenda (the 'I can't believe you just said that' is there to discredit the idea that what she's saying could be anything but common sense).

A more charitable interpretation is that she just has a very inflated opinion of her own scum game and thinks everyone else makes hollow posts but she doesn't.

I'd like to hear if anyone has thoughts on this

[Klick]

I think that making "hollow" posts as scum (or town) is largely a play style issue

I 100% agree!

Titus is claiming the opposite though, that making hollow posts is 'literally what scum do', and using it to push Dunn.

And she knows that's not true, because it doesn't fit her own posting as scum.

[Klick]

Anyway, going to sleep on this. Thanks for engaging with me on it, I feel like this was productive.

The whole Klick / Dunnstral interaction over the past page reads as SvS.

How do I come out of that interaction looking like mafia?

The whole exchange came across as not authentic. Klick is pressing you to explain why you are town (which is rather pointless because most people are going to profess their innocence and manipulate their play in a way that this isn't going to help much.) You then at first refuse but ultimately relent, and the way you executed that comes out as pretty staged. I do think you come out looking better than Klick through the whole interaction, but it still really feels staged and unnatural like two scum buddings distancing from each other but then finding a way to magically town read each other. (Okay, Klick is the one who gets the magical town read on you; I don't think you said whether you town read Klick or not after the exchange, but that's beside the point.)

If your issue is with the self-meta thing itself, I can point you to several recent examples of games where I've done basically the exact same exercise
It is one of my favorite things to do to solve people who are willing to engage with it

[Klick]

Actually I literally pointed to an example of it above when talking about Titus LMAO

[Klick]

I think your takeaway from this should be that I'm town and have a number of accurate townreads btw

You only know if your townreads are accurate if you're scum

???
Where do I imply that anyone should 'know' their townreads are accurate
How is this relevant

It's your wording. "I think your takeaway from this should be that I'm town and have a number of accurate townreads btw." You both could be wrong about some of your reads, but you are supposing that since you two agree on certain reads, that makes them accurate.

I *do* think that if two players come to the same read on the game independently, they are both more likely to be town having the accurate read on the situation

Or more specifically in this case, I think Pink Ball forming a set of reads and then seeing mine and going 'those reads are very similar to mine!' is pretty indicative of us both coming to our conclusions because they are the correct ones

[Klick]

So what, exactly, do you guys mean when you say I am hallow posting?

I wrote up a response to this but would you rather Titus answer first?

[Klick]

What do you expect me to do differently as town there? I did what was asked of me.

Not engage after your initial post or two explaining why you didn't think it was useful.

Dunnstral is a helpful amogus

[Klick]

I think GIF has had some rather towny content this day phase

[Klick]

I'll set aside my disdain for the percentage question for a moment

Probably somewhere in the range of 60-70% confidence?

[Klick]

I think {Titus, Shea, FA, Drixx} is likely to contain like 3, maybe 2 scum
And then I've got a bad read somewhere in the remainder

[Klick]

I'm definitely projecting false confidence, you are correct
I normally don't really like doing that but in the current situation it feels necessary to get people to possibly listen to what I have to say
Confidence is also something I'm working on in general. My usual MO is to sit back for the first few days until I have a very very confident view of the game, and until then mostly vouch for the most confident and vulnerable towneads I have. For a few reasons that hasnt happened in this game

[Klick]

I feel like if I give my actual confidence level in most situations I won't be listened to in Mafia games
Which is fine most of the time but not when I'm about to get mislimmed

[Klick]

I think misrepresenting confidence in pushes is a thing most people on-site do though? Either that or they greatly misplace their confidence very often/otherwise don't think it through

[Klick]

but for you I'm thinking back to hollow knight and I recall from the end game you were very good at projecting the right amount of confidence you were feeling.

I'll also say that I think endgame is definitely the most appropriate time to be fairly open about confidence levels
Unless you're pulling some wacky info-based gambit like I attempted with my public message role lol

[Klick]

Those answers are all really good context Klick and I agree with them generally. At the very least I certainly believe you believe them.

I'm definitely projecting false confidence, you are correct
I normally don't really like doing that but in the current situation it feels necessary to get people to possibly listen to what I have to say
Confidence is also something I'm working on in general. My usual MO is to sit back for the first few days until I have a very very confident view of the game, and until then mostly vouch for the most confident and vulnerable towneads I have. For a few reasons that hasnt happened in this game

This in particular reads really true and is part of why I wanted to poke because it was my impression as well and also squares with what you said earlier about your early town game being accurately described as "flaccid" which is something I think I only remember because describing someone as flaccid is really funny.

I think misrepresenting confidence in pushes is a thing most people on-site do though? Either that or they greatly misplace their confidence very often/otherwise don't think it through

Right but I don't think its generally a thing YOU do a lot. But the context makes sense to me here.

I don't really have a response to this other than I do appreciate the olive branch

[Klick]

I could see something like Titus/FA/Firebringer/??? being it
I have rather liked the content I've been getting from Alisae when it's there but I find myself underwhelmed overall

[Klick]

Shea, I am 95% confident Klick is scum. Look at the wagons. My scumreads have tunneled me all game.

You don't like my accurate conclusions because you don't understand them because I have been a terrible speaker.

OMGUS harder scum

Am I doing it right

[Klick]

4262 - I can't believe you just said that. Hollow posting is literally what scum do. To say it's not scum indicative is baffling.

No, most scum (particularly skilled players) go to great lengths to make their posting NOT look hollow. Town post what they want.

@3602

Post 1: No Conclusion. Hedge. No effort to solve which way.

Why do town post conclusions and not scum

Post 2: 3605 is a case. I'll give you that. But where is the effort to go through why GiF ignored him supposedly. Where is Dunn's follow through? Just posts a case and no analysis. He just backs off.

Why do town actively assert their opinions and not scum

4262 - I can't believe you just said that. Hollow posting is literally what scum do. To say it's not scum indicative is baffling.

So in a past game (Not Quite Normal Multiball 2) I asked Titus (Nashville Dreams) what she had done in the game that she wouldn't do as scum. She gave me this answer.

As for 11692, I don't feel I have a townrange or a scumrange. It's more about my relationships. So I'm not going to pretend there's a magical towntell for reading me.

Important disclaimer: Titus was scum in that game, and so had incentive to lie about her answer. But I think it was a true statement and reflects what she actually feels about her own scum game vs her town game. Titus can feel free to correct me if that's wrong.

What I don't understand is how Titus can be of a mindset that 'scum make hollow posts', when she is aware that's not the case

based on her own approach to playing as scum.

Is she saying that players that

aren't her

make hollow posts? She seems to be positing that scum *by nature* make hollow posts. Why is she the exception to that rule?

My interpretation is that the 'scum make hollow posts' thing is nonsense being used to justify pushing through her agenda (the 'I can't believe you just said that' is there to discredit the idea that what she's saying could be anything but common sense).

A more charitable interpretation is that she just has a very inflated opinion of her own scum game and thinks everyone else makes hollow posts but she doesn't.

I'd like to hear if anyone has thoughts on this

To bring these back into the foreground now that Titus is around again

[Klick]

Klick, nothing in that Nashville Dreams post says anything about posts not being hollow. There's no magical tell when someone has hollow posting. Scum cannot make genuine reads. That's why their posting is hollow, like yours and Dunn's.

The question is who is the last. I have reasons to clear everyone else marginally.

When you're scum do you feel that you make hollow posts? Or do you not have a town or scum range?

[Klick]

Give me a reason why Titus solely tunnels if town.

Ftfy

[Klick]

VOTE: klick

I was looking forward to your grand return and team thoughts but instead you've just placed like your fifth naked vote on me

[Klick]

Give me a reason Klick isn't dead if Klick is town.

For what it's worth I partially agree with the point being made here

I think the flow of the game right now suggests that Klick v Titus is not TvT. This is a gamestate with significance.

[Klick]

Klick is deathtunneling me.

You have it completely backwards who is deathtunneling whom.

[Klick]

Klick - Locktown

The truth comes out

[Klick]

Fwiw here's my response from earlier Dunn

So what, exactly, do you guys mean when you say I am hallow posting?

From my perspective:
You're posting a lot of questions and commentary, but those questions and commentary don't really seem to produce much in the way of observable reads. When Titus was asking me for specific examples of you solving, it was actually kind of hard to find a decent sample of posts that clearly fulfilled that request. It's difficult to verify that you are developing reads and not just making them up.

(Upon closer reading I think you are indeed doing genuine solving and that's something that can be observed, but I can see how it would be difficult for one to identify it. Especially if one were scum and didn't care that much about finding where you are solving.)

[Klick]

Then where are we? I can't vote people who I am damn sure are town. I don’t think I can honestly reassess without a flip. I'm too far deep.

So... deathtunneling?

[Klick]

Shea can I get a sense of your overall reads at this point? Or would the shake-up disrupt doing that effectively

[Klick]

What do you mean by shake up?

You seem to be reevaluating me (not to say that you no longer have me as a scumread, just that your stated thoughts there are more hazy)
I want to know the impact that has on your broader reads
With a potential end goal of seeing where our reads line up and where they differ

[Klick]

I was intrigued by you saying you townread Dunn
You probably did discuss it a fair bit but its not something I remember you saying
I want to know if there's anything else interesting about your current perspective

[Klick]

Pickleball is fun my mom got me to play it when I went back to the US last month

[Klick]

Okay cool, thank you
I don't think we're that far off from each other

I think I agree with the idea that Firebringer makes the most sense as scum if he's paired with Titus, and if Titus is town he's probably also town.

DV seems fairly confident that Drixx is town? I had things that pinged town for me sort of late D1 and I do understand the arguments about Titus/Drixx being an unlikely pairing even if I'm not fully convinced by them. I don't think he's impossible but I also probably wouldn't go there without more info.

I want more STD content generally

[Klick]

I'm town and I want you to vote scum and not town
You're projecting a lot of uncertainty in general

What are the reads you feel most strongly about in this game?

[Klick]

Eh maybe it is worth talking about even though FB will probably try to hammer me for more making up town reads.

I'm pretty worried we're falsely clearing PB and Black because I think this setup does not make a lot of sense if the scum does not have extremely good ways to mess with the PoE. Titus is right that if everything is how it is on the surface with this game and there are 4 goons or like 3 goons and a RB then the setup is utterly broken. My inclination is not think "oh mods have made a broken setup lets out everything and try to mech through it." its to think "these clears probably aren't as good as we think they are" and I honestly have not liked pink balls contribution much today at all.

In general I am hesitant to trust clears in this setup as well

Fortunately I am also now in a place where I actually townread every mech 'clear' player by behaviour as well

You mentioned not liking PB's mech-based approach today earlier
Tbh I wouldn't really expect differently from anyone who had Jingle on their team? I suspect Jingle is ensuring his thoughts on how to break the setup are in play in this game regardless of PB's alignment

I think when he isn't talking about mech PB's solving reads as really genuine.

[Klick]

Like if Shea came back, we'd have a Klick lim but for some reason I can't get Shea to see the light. He'd rather fight fire than flip scum because he townreads Klick's robotic tunnel, bullshit Dunn defense, and kissing Drixx ass.

This isn't much better than the buzzwords you accuse me of

[Klick]

You know I'm town and you act like this when you know I'm ill. Wtf

@Drixx: do you, in fact, have reason to believe Titus is town based on her play/your experience with her, or is this just an AtE

[Klick]

I disagree I think the point she was trying to make is that you should know she's town from experience and she's not explicitly saying it makes you scum but she's implying that you should 'know better'

As scum she could definitely be using this to make people question you as scum who is wilfully ignoring evidence that would make Titus town
But I think the position she's trying to present herself as having is confusion about why you don't have her as locktown

The personal stuff also seems like it's still about what happened on D1 and not about today

[Klick]

Regardless there is definitely an intent from her to make you look bad with it regardless of either of your alignments

[Klick]

I agree that 'scum have a blocking ability they could use tonight' is likely enough that Titus' target getting blocked at night wouldn't actually be clearing for Titus

[Klick]

You and Klick are like yes men to each other.

I think I've like hardly interacted with Drixx for most of this game??

[Klick]

Titus, what about your play should make Drixx realise that you're town?

[Klick]

You and Klick are like yes men to each other.

I think I've like hardly interacted with Drixx for most of this game??

And it doesn't bother you that you both have exactly mirrored reads. That's a problem I have with you both. You HAVEN'T talked. You haven't asked each other reads. The closest you come is agreeing with each other right after posting

I don't think I could tell you a read Drixx has off the top of my head other than you!scum and vague conflicted feelings over myself

Where are you getting that Drixx and I have 'exactly mirrored reads' anywhere other than thinking you're scum

Titus, what about your play should make Drixx realise that you're town?

Our history. As scum, I rarely flub. Definitely not to this extent. Even in Space Dandy, we both broke the setup. If we could have agreed to a plan, we would have won. Instead, we devolved into camps.

Drixx has no plan and refuses mine. That's fucking baggage or scum.

I'm not really sure what this means
How have you 'flubbed' here in a way that doesn't happen when you're scum

[Klick]

I don't know what anyone expects. The plan could never clear anyone. Titus' insistence that the plan would clear her, or anyone else, is frankly baffling.

I agree that 'scum have a blocking ability they could use tonight' is likely enough that Titus' target getting blocked at night wouldn't actually be clearing for Titus

This is the wrong assumption y'all are pushing as scum.

Scum don't have a blocking ability because the jk is confirmed.

This is a nonsense point
You don't have valid reason to assume scum don't have access to a blocking ability

[Klick]

@Klick - Part 1

Drixx literally just said me and Fire are aligned after you FoSed him. Not seeing things like that make me think you aren't sorting him.

So first of all I didn't FoS Drixx
By your own metric, misreading my posting that badly is an indication of not sorting me

My attention is very good at staying focused in one area and ignoring practically everything else
I regularly lose memory of things that I've been told five minutes ago
This is something that is true in my personal life as well as in Mafia games
I don't have a consistent map of where everyone's thoughts are in my head unless there has been some importance to them in the narrative I've been engaged with. I constantly have to go back and refresh on that kind of info when it is more relevant to what I'm trying to solve.

This still doesn't answer how mine and Drixx's reads are 'perfectly mirrored', but I suppose if you were more interested in getting a jab in than actually making that a meaningful point there wouldn't be much more to that.

@Klick Part 2- Flubbed is getting the setup wrong repeatedly. I don't do that as scum. Maybe once.

Be more specific
Make a case
What things specifically did you get wrong in this game that you wouldn't have gotten wrong if you were scum
And

why

is that the case
What about your scum play means that you wouldn't do that as scum.

[Klick]

Literally std confirms jailkeeper.

Scum aren't going to have a block too.

Unless you think StD is my partner, there's no way I am scum.

You getting STD's role card does not in any way impact the likelihood that scum have a blocking ability.

[Klick]

I'm pretty lost in this game atm. I feel like there's a lot of pages I need to read from over the weekend but when I skim over them there's so many words

I get the vibe that Klick is in survival mode which really isn't alignment indicative but it gives me bad vibes

I'm way more convinced in Klick!scum than Titus!scum I think

I've pretty openly admitted that part of why I'm doing what I'm currently doing is because I think if I go down here it's rather bad for town considering how my PoE is lining up

'Isn't alignment indicative but it gives me bad vibes' and 'way more convinced in Klick!scum than Titus!scum' give off two really different vibes and feel weirdly dissonant

What is your actual read on myself and on Titus?

[Klick]

@Klick Part 1- Him applies to Fire not Drixx. Please respond properly rather than twisting.

I misinterpreted what you said because it wasn't clear. Please respond properly rather than twisting. Which has essentially been your approach to every single response you've made to me in this day phase, fwiw.

@Part 2 - It's not about specifics. It's the amount.

Ok

How many things did you get wrong in this game that you wouldn't have gotten wrong if you were scum, and which specific things are they
And 

why

 is that the case
What about your scum play means that you wouldn't do that as scum.

You're avoiding the point of most of the questions I ask you.

[Klick]

Literally std confirms jailkeeper.

Scum aren't going to have a block too.

Unless you think StD is my partner, there's no way I am scum.

You getting STD's role card does not in any way impact the likelihood that scum have a blocking ability.

Yes it does. No safe claim.

You're going to have to be more clear! This doesn't mean anything to me

[Klick]

'Isn't alignment indicative but it gives me bad vibes' and 'way more convinced in Klick!scum than Titus!scum' give off two really different vibes and feel weirdly dissonant

I don't think those things are dissonant at all. Both town and scum can go into survival mode but I think when talented, logical players do it, it reads a certain way. Like calm, but also desperate. Also, me being way more convinced that you are scum over Titus has much more to do with [

other stuff than

] my read on your survivalism so there is no harmony intended with these two statements

What is your actual read on myself and on Titus?

I think you're probably scum, and Titus has been floating between null-town, null, and null-scum for most of the game. I'm having a very hard time reading here and I think I'd just rather outsource my read here tbh

So what is it that actually *does* make you feel that I'm probably scum

[Klick]

@Klick Part 1- Him applies to Fire not Drixx. Please respond properly rather than twisting.

I misinterpreted what you said because it wasn't clear. Please respond properly rather than twisting. Which has essentially been your approach to every single response you've made to me in this day phase, fwiw.

@Part 2 - It's not about specifics. It's the amount.

Ok

How many things did you get wrong in this game that you wouldn't have gotten wrong if you were scum, and which specific things are they
And 

why

 is that the case
What about your scum play means that you wouldn't do that as scum.

You're avoiding the point of most of the questions I ask you.

Literally std confirms jailkeeper.

Scum aren't going to have a block too.

Unless you think StD is my partner, there's no way I am scum.

You getting STD's role card does not in any way impact the likelihood that scum have a blocking ability.

Yes it does. No safe claim.

You're going to have to be more clear! This doesn't mean anything to me

[Klick]

I admire the commitment to avoiding assumptions
But I also think there is literally only one viable answer to your question

[Klick]

My issue right now is, I don't necessarily like the wagon composition on titus (specially the middle votes) while I like the voters on klick wagon more but I think from my impression klick has more scum quality than titus with the way he was playing day 1. and that's why I haven't been voting so I can make up my mind on the top wagon.

I'm assuming you mean town quality? Otherwise it sounds like you'd quite enjoy being on my wagon

[Klick]

So let's yeet Klick and see what happens?

How about no?
I'm not even top wagon

[Klick]

I feel like there are legitimate issues with Titus' current mindset that are just kind of being ignored by a few people

Something particularly bothering me is that she is insistent on expressing a Shea townread for reasons that Shea himself has said are not valid methods of townreading him. There's no reevaluation or reconsideration from it, just continued insistence and finding ways to justify her position rather than evaluating it.

That's the case throughout today. She is trying to shove through her depiction of the game using brute force. Her potential scum are all the lowest hanging fruit she could possibly have - myself, Dunn, and then one of {STD, GIF, Drixx}. This is the safest possible position for someone who has no interest in evaluating her reads and every interest in pushing through an agenda.

There's no paranoia of Shea, who has a very strong scum game.
There's no paranoia of Firebringer, who has a very strong scum game.
There's no paranoia of Frozen Angel, who has a very strong scum game.
These are apparently the three 'obvious town' who she is basing her PoE on, along with the players who appear to be mech-clear. There's no real concern that one of these players could be getting past her. Because she's not actually attempting to solve for them - it's more convenient to call them town for now, and then when I flip town they're still there to stir up suspicion on in the later phases of the game. Because after all, they have really strong scum games, right?

It's really hard for me to believe that Titus has gotten to her current mindset through a genuine attempt at solving that isn't particularly surface-level.

[Klick]

If she isn't putting in effort and doesn't have strong reasons for what she's doing, why is she throwing her weight around like her reads have authority?

[Klick]

(My answer to that is that she has an agenda that supersedes reads)

[Klick]

The last scum is StD, GiF or remotely Drixx.

This game is solved...why won't people think?

[Klick]

If she isn't putting in effort and doesn't have strong reasons for what she's doing, why is she throwing her weight around like her reads have authority?

(My answer to that is that she has an agenda that supersedes reads)

Would you accept ego as a possible reason? Like if Titus is just town, that would be the reason right?

Yes, I think that's 100% correct.
I think there's a realistic chance of this being town Titus with an incredibly inflated confidence in her own surface-level read on the game.
I don't think it's more likely than her just being scum. But this is the possible world I see where Titus would be town.

[Klick]

If Titus is town, I think she isn't thinking particularly hard about her reads because she feels that the things she is pushing for will be best for the result regardless of the alignments of the people who die in the process.

[Klick]

@Klick Part 1- Him applies to Fire not Drixx. Please respond properly rather than twisting.

I misinterpreted what you said because it wasn't clear. Please respond properly rather than twisting. Which has essentially been your approach to every single response you've made to me in this day phase, fwiw.

@Part 2 - It's not about specifics. It's the amount.

Ok

How many things did you get wrong in this game that you wouldn't have gotten wrong if you were scum, and which specific things are they
And 

why

 is that the case
What about your scum play means that you wouldn't do that as scum.

You're avoiding the point of most of the questions I ask you.

Literally std confirms jailkeeper.

Scum aren't going to have a block too.

Unless you think StD is my partner, there's no way I am scum.

You getting STD's role card does not in any way impact the likelihood that scum have a blocking ability.

Yes it does. No safe claim.

You're going to have to be more clear! This doesn't mean anything to me

I'm assuming I'm just never going to get a response to these

[Klick]

Considering I'm not the only person that questioned it, it's incredibly presumptuous to say me saying that and then quoting it again was 'grandstanding'.

I'm pretty sure games frequently run that have town and equivalent/very similar scum roles. Try again.

Also
How many things did you get wrong in this game that you wouldn't have gotten wrong if you were scum, and which specific things are they
And

why

is that the case
What about your scum play means that you wouldn't do that as scum.

[Klick]

VOTE: Klick

How does Ali feel about it

[Klick]

i have way too many townreads so this is what im willing to do. I am only going to lock 5 players as no go zones for me in reads terms because i feel they are strong enough and i feel at worst case scenario im only wrong on one of them.

i will make that GIF, Titus, PB, Ircher, and StD

This gives me an elim pool of any of Black/Dunnstral/Kuribo/Shea/Klick/Frozen Angel/Drixx
and yes if i gave myself more room for townreads more than half of those i would say i don't want to eiim but i need cull the townreads and be more flexible here.

I know that with various mech reasons which i say is stupid and i don't care, Black and Kuribo aren't being elimmed today. So really Dunnstral/Klick/FA/Drixx and Shea and no one is interested in Shea. Seems like everyone wants Klick.

This feels arbitrary and considering the gamestate and the read you've stated on me feels like a massive excuse.

You've stated you want to wagon elsewhere and shown so with your vote, but you've not done the actual things required to shift the momentum of the thread that has been clear for most of this day phase. And it's not like you're not actively aware of it. You've said yourself that you need to case Shea.

If you're left with townreads that you have clear stated reasons for in your PoE, maybe some of your other reads have gone wrong? Because I think you are the single player/slot in this game that should be fully aware that I'm way outside of what I'm capable of as scum.

I'm not fully satisfied with my PoE either. I think I'm probably misclearing someone. But I'm trying to get someone eliminated who I think is decently likely to flip scum.

I don't really want to be eliminated today, because I think there's scum in the higher-influence players and when I'm gone I don't have confidence that they will be eliminated.

[Klick]

Well that happened.

[Klick]

Why's Dunn Scum

[Klick]

I kind of believe that that's the extent to which you've thought about the game since yesterday ended

Call it a town perspective slip (tm)

[Klick]

I'm not feeling particularly confident in much right now.

I feel reasonably certain that Dunnstral and STD are town right now. And beyond that I feel like I'm stepping in a minefield.

Looking back at wagons with current info (and knowledge that I'm town), it looks like major wagons have literally only been on town. The only potential exceptions are the GIF wagon that popped up D1 and wasn't particularly serious, and the early FA wagon.

[Klick]

feels like it was supposed to be klick that black went to and it rnged to me

I feel like you want me to be scum and are letting yourself fall into that conclusion without proper conviction

[Klick]

I think FB would be a reasonable target for Black

[Klick]

Why wouldn't he be?

[Klick]

feels like it was supposed to be klick that black went to and it rnged to me

I feel like you want me to be scum and are letting yourself fall into that conclusion without proper conviction

why would i want u to be scum

If you're scum you want me open as a mislim

If you're town it's probably PoE related. I want Shea to be scum through PoE without any actual evidence pointing individually towards him, for example.

[Klick]

I don't think there's a reason I'd be a more likely target than anyone else in that PoE in particular

If anything, I think it's likely Black had someone in mind before D2 ended, wanted me eliminated, and wouldn't decide to change her desired target to me upon Titus getting eliminated instead of me

[Klick]

i don't see how that is me wanting u to be scum other than i don't see how ur not scum through a PoE. Like it feels like ur rewriting how a PoE works to be something we want rather than what we see as the game right now.

I actually want Shea to be scum here so i can say i was right yesterday.
But I am also skeptical and feel like my PoE is terrible and i don't like it nor how i think scum are sneaking in my townreads.

My PoE is def not something i want here.

Yesterday you brought up several valid reasons to townread me
But yesterday and today you are also bringing up skepticism towards my alignment/otherwise angling for eliminating me for reasons I don't really get

Decide which townreads are based in something you're willing to bet the game on and go from there
That's where I'm currently at on both Dunnstral and STD

[Klick]

I don't think there's a reason I'd be a more likely target than anyone else in that PoE in particular

If anything, I think it's likely Black had someone in mind before D2 ended, wanted me eliminated, and wouldn't decide to change her desired target to me upon Titus getting eliminated instead of me

Dude how can u not see it.
U were the other leading wagon yesterday. If there was someone i would want confirmed from yesterday it would 100% be you.

Okay but I wasn't targeted by Black last night so I know for a fact that didn't happen

I can see why YOU would want to target me with that role
Black didn't choose to do that and I think 'she already had a different target in mind' makes sense as an explanation

I also think you make a reasonable amount of sense as that kind of target

[Klick]

of course scum could have killed black as a way to make u look sus in hopes black wouldn't visit u and visited someone else in PoE but im trying to really see how thats the case

I think scum kill Black here in most realities!
It's incredibly pro-scum to not actually have the previous Caterer around to explain things

[Klick]

I also think you make a reasonable amount of sense as that kind of target

If you hold this opinion then you can't possibly even call me scum today. I hope you realize the dichotomy u just threw yourself in with this argument.

I lean towards you not being scum!
Not enough to stop considering you
But that's where I'm currently at

[Klick]

You can't simultaneously argue that black actually would 100% mucho target me.
And maybe firebringer is scum guys.

Because since i got the role from black targetting me. That makes me town.

'I think it makes a reasonable amount of sense for Black to have targeted you' is not 'Black would 100% target you'
Don't misrep me.

[Klick]

GIF and FA are both in my PoE, either could be scum who got targeted theoretically
It's also possible that you were targeted and it got randed to you or someone on your scumteam

Both of these are less likely than you getting targeted and being town
But the thing about possibilities is that they are possible

[Klick]

If I take out Dunn and STD and Firebringer and the Lovers here's what I am left with

Drixx
Frozen Angel
GuyInFreezer
Pink Ball
Thestatusquo

[Klick]

If I take out Dunn and STD and Firebringer and the Lovers here's what I am left with

Drixx
Frozen Angel
GuyInFreezer
Pink Ball
Thestatusquo

didn't pink ball claimed to have given Black specifically caterer before she even claimed. That makes Pink Ball 100% town.

No, it doesn't. Black strongly hinted at having the role ages before Pink Ball said anything. I think Pink Ball having the role originally as scum, it randomly going to Black, and Pink Ball claiming to have targeted Black is a viable theory.

[Klick]

Whoever had my role last night should be able to clear me as town or confirm the person they targeted is scum. Unless they targeted Fey in which case that's pretty unfortunate

Black's second post of D2

I'm waiting to see if anyone claims my D2 role as their role yesterday because that should either confirm me as town or confirm someone else as scum

Black, I initially ignored this because I read it backwards, but I saw you claimed VT on D1 so...
A question, should the person that had your role on D1 be conftown too in case there were no interferences?

PB's first legitimate hint at being the one to target Black

There's plenty of time to organise thoughts in theory

[Klick]

viewtopic.php?t=90488

If I am eliminated today, I strongly advise that a plan akin to the one discussed in this thread is put in place.

[Klick]

But why would scum Pink Ball remove Black from the PoE?

Claiming to target Black convincingly enough sets PB up to endgame
Who cares if Black is removed from the PoE if it wins PB the game

[Klick]

But why would scum Pink Ball remove Black from the PoE?

Claiming to target Black convincingly enough sets PB up to endgame
Who cares if Black is removed from the PoE if it wins PB the game

not sure why u think scum!PB had a good reason to remove himself from the pool when he was never very strongly scumread to begin with. Think scumPB was in a good enough position that eliminating someone i would call pretty scummy imo (Black) was more + town points than any benefit gained from scum!PB.

But this is what i mean is how ur keeping too many options open to argue as many people as possible, i feel ur lim pool should be pretty small right now.

My main point is that I think clearing PB off of the claim is hasty and a potential inaccuracy. I'm not particularly interested in arguing a specific point of view of exactly how PB would decide to make a play like claiming Caterer, because there are multiple possibilities.

I think a LOT of people have towntold to some extent. I have called every single player in this game town at some point and given my reasons for believing so. The problem is that scum exist in this game, and I have to decide which reads are actually accurate and which reads have potential to be inaccurate.

I don't get how you can be sitting there going 'my PoE feels shit maybe it's wrong' while also going 'you're keeping options open your PoE should be smaller than 5 people'.

[Klick]

Scum!me would have to make that play taking the risk of being tracked/followed/JKed/etc. I reached Black to conftown her and to work around a mech solve, not to get townie points that I didn’t need

Do you think the Caterer claim situation from yesterday should make you confirmed town?

[Klick]

I don't get how you can be sitting there going 'my PoE feels shit maybe it's wrong' while also going 'you're keeping options open your PoE should be smaller than 5 people'.

really because i think its plain as day that i want to limit the POE as much as possible and kick people out who i don't think is belonging in it or who should be in it. i would much rather just have a scumread

Whereas with u it feels like a deliberate attempt to keep the PoE open for business.

But I was doing that yesterday
That was entirely my rationale for being really comfortable with the Titus elimination. I was down to Titus/FA/Drixx/GIF/Shea.

It'd be great if I could be really confident that FA/Drixx/GIF/Shea houses the entire scumteam
But the fact of the matter is that I have some doubts on like most of even that PoE based on things they've done that have felt towny to me.

Is it really unbelievable that I'd have low confidence in reducing my PoE after being wrong about two scumreads in a row

[Klick]

Klick I think the problem is that you’re leaving Dunn and StD out because you townread them but then putting me in the PoE because “he could still be scum you know” seems opportunistic instead of actually giving reads. To me it seems like you’re townreading Dunn and StD just to be consistent with the reads you had yesterday and because starting the day saying “I have to reevaluate this game, everyone is null from now on” would make you an instant lim

Having STD as a lock townread today isn't particularly consistent with what I was saying yesterday

You want a full reads list disregarding PoE as a concept?

Save The Dragons
Dunnstral
Ircher
Kuribo

Firebringer

Pink Ball

GuyInFreezer
Drixx
Thestatusquo

Frozen Angel

Scum!me would have to make that play taking the risk of being tracked/followed/JKed/etc. I reached Black to conftown her and to work around a mech solve, not to get townie points that I didn’t need

Do you think the Caterer claim situation from yesterday should make you confirmed town?

No, I talked about this yesterday. But I don’t like that you started this day by reiterating that particular fact

I was literally asked 'isn't Pink Ball 100% confirmed town' by Firebringer and have been responding to that proposition.

[Klick]

@Klick I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not reduce your PoE and looking for other options after being wrong twice. What I find weird is that your PoE doesn’t include either Dunn or StD

I think the things I'm townreading the two of them for are reliable and can't actually realistically see either of them flipping scum.

[Klick]

viewtopic.php?t=90488

If I am eliminated today, I strongly advise that a plan akin to the one discussed in this thread is put in place.

What do you mean by this?

The tl;dr is this: scum-favored endgame scenarios are waaay more scum-favored than is commonly accepted. Without a plan, town need to unanimously or near-unanimously agree on who to eliminate in the later stages of the game, and doing that isn't actually very feasible. Town benefits much more from sheeping behind a consensus townread determined in as unbiased a method as possible; their individual chances of hitting scum are actually pretty high, much higher than the odds of every town player coming together and agreeing on eliminating scum. I'm proposing that we prepare for that scenario in advance.

I just read that. Klick if you’re not sure about your own reads, who would you sheep?

The problem is that town has been pretty universally wrong so far in this game, at least on who they have decided to pursue as a vote. No one has a good solid scum read that is also correct.

This is a complicated question because it involves several factors like how likely the person is to be town, how likely they are to be sheeped, and how accurate they're capable of being. I think it's important that the person being sheeped is someone that first and foremost can be generally agreed upon as town on a more objective level.

In terms of dead players, I haven't looked back at what his reads actually were but I'd consider sheeping Feysal's perspective on the game.

Letting me get a more thorough solve out and then sheeping me after I flip today is probably the most practical way of doing this sort of thing, but I also have doubts about whether that would actually happen.

[Klick]

I just read that. Klick if you’re not sure about your own reads, who would you sheep?

I’m was being cheeky with this question but I think you don’t deserve it.
You proposing to follow your strat tomorrow, which would be ELo, instead of today, which seems more appropiate towards the example given in your post (a 6v3), looks like an attempt to not get limmed today rather than actually being concerned of how the situation will be tomorrow in case you’re limmed. Specially knowing that if we followed that strategy today, the most likely scenario is that you would get limmed

I'd love to not get limmed today but I suspect that's not happening
I proposed it happening tomorrow specifically because I don't think anyone will follow it today over just eliminating me lol

[Klick]

The problem is that town has been pretty universally wrong so far in this game, at least on who they have decided to pursue as a vote. No one has a good solid scum read that is also correct.

That's because we let you off the hook yesterday. We're rectifying that today by murking scum.

Your contributions are always appreciated

[Klick]

The problem is that town has been pretty universally wrong so far in this game, at least on who they have decided to pursue as a vote. No one has a good solid scum read that is also correct.

This would be true in the situations you propose we sheep a leader as well.

Well hopefully the leader can reflect on that fact and make better choices

[Klick]

its really hard for me to see a world where klick isn't scum.

Why's that?

[Klick]

I thought the way you immediately theorized that black must have targeted fb when I do not think thats even remotely the most likely outcome is self-serving and opportunistic. That is narrative you have to have if you're scum and it felt like you didn't even feel interested in considering other possibilities.

Know what's really telling there?

Klick went straight to "she must have targeted firebringer" instead of suggesting Black's other scumread, GiF.

We're assuming I had conscious awareness of the fact that Black scumread GIF

[Klick]

I think you are by far the most likely target for black.

I thought the way you immediately theorized that black must have targeted fb when I do not think thats even remotely the most likely outcome is self-serving and opportunistic. That is narrative you have to have if you're scum and it felt like you didn't even feel interested in considering other possibilities.

I don't really understand how these two thoughts go together. If I'm town, and I do not have the Caterer role, and I see that Firebringer is claiming the Caterer role upon the start of today, what should I be thinking?

I think part of why it's really easy to be like 'Firebringer wasn't targeted by Black' is because you already have a different target in mind (myself). If that's *not* an option, I'd be surprised if you still thought Firebringer wasn't a sensible target?

But then I also think Firebringer is a sensible target for Black regardless. *shrug*

I think it's really easy for people who see what they think the best use of a role is to assume that it's obvious and everyone would see it. Black frequently asks questions about things that some people think have obvious answers. (This isn't a dig, I do this as well.) I think Black targeting Firebringer makes quite a bit of sense from Black's perspective and I can't see why that is obviously not the case or particularly unlikely from your perspective.

Black literally said 'I'm going to target someone in my PoE', and Firebringer is in the PoE.

[Klick]

I thought the way you immediately theorized that black must have targeted fb when I do not think thats even remotely the most likely outcome is self-serving and opportunistic. That is narrative you have to have if you're scum and it felt like you didn't even feel interested in considering other possibilities.

Know what's really telling there?

Klick went straight to "she must have targeted firebringer" instead of suggesting Black's other scumread, GiF.

We're assuming I had conscious awareness of the fact that Black scumread GIF

Took like two seconds to get to the part where she said it

I understand that's a lot to ask of scum so you're forgiven

Yeah but you're the one with incentive to go through Black's ISO to look for that
I have opened Black's ISO zero times in this conversation

[Klick]

When I flip please remove kuribo's platform that he has used exclusively to remove mine

[Klick]

I want a massclaim of yesterday's role to see if we can get more conftowns. Roles and targets in the same post this time please. Klick, you start

VBC

[Klick]

Popcorn Frozen Angel (hi!)

[Klick]

hmmm.

if black is less stupid than I am that does make targeting fb a little more likely than I was giving it credit for. Although maybe not because she did still put gif in the poe.

Still think the most likely thing is she targeted klick but if she did forget and target gif that would explain it being randed to fb as well.

I'm surprised that you think 'Black forgot about GIF's commute and targeted him' is plausible but 'Black targeted Firebringer' isn't.

[Klick]

We kinda also limmed the jailkeeper so that’s one less interference. I think role magically randomly on FB is kinda too coincidental so I think it’s safe to assume FB is town and got the role?

This!

People are talking about FB randing it as someone in the PoE like that's some particularly likely occurrence.

[Klick]

My claim cant be fixed its litteraly on that post in a pretty obvious manner already so I don't think I need to rush it

If it were obvious you wouldn't feel the need to slow roll it

[Klick]

Let's clear up mech a little here. Let's assume Firebringer is mafia and is in possession of the Caterer. The role does

not

need to specifically, coincidentally rand onto Firebringer. Any of Firebringer's teammates could have received the Caterer role, and then Firebringer can "switch" fake claims with that mafia player as a more advantageous player inside of the PoE. This increases the odds from 1/15 to hitting Firebringer to something like 4/15 of hitting Firebringer's team.


I'm not saying that this is what happened. I think the most likely explanation is that Firebringer simply received the Caterer normally, and 4/15 is still pretty low odds.

Yes this is fair and I was saying it yesterday

I agree that it's still rather unlikely

[Klick]

Popcorn Frozen Angel (hi!)

hi!

I claimed few posts above. I doubt you would miss that so this is wierd

I am reading these posts chronologically
I saw you in post preview

[Klick]

We kinda also limmed the jailkeeper so that’s one less interference. I think role magically randomly on FB is kinda too coincidental so I think it’s safe to assume FB is town and got the role?

This!

People are talking about FB randing it as someone in the PoE like that's some particularly likely occurrence.

If FB is town and got the role cause black targetted them, I still think the black night kill means scum were worried he would target a scum and they didn't want her to claim action.

So I think regardless of how FB got the role there is a scum in klick's POE

I think killing Black brings scum mechanical utility regardless of whether she's likely to get a guilty or an inno?

Like my immediate thought which I discussed last night was that they killed Black to stop her from confirming someone as town by being present to discuss who she targeted

Stopping a Cop check brings value whether or not it is likely to hit town or scum

[Klick]

I still think the black night kill means scum were worried he would target a scum and they didn't want her to claim action.

This I can get behind.

I disagree that this is conclusive, see above
Scum being in that PoE is still likely by play but not for those reasons and not more than any other particular configuration of 4 scum.

[Klick]

hmmm.

if black is less stupid than I am that does make targeting fb a little more likely than I was giving it credit for. Although maybe not because she did still put gif in the poe.

Still think the most likely thing is she targeted klick but if she did forget and target gif that would explain it being randed to fb as well.

I'm surprised that you think 'Black forgot about GIF's commute and targeted him' is plausible but 'Black targeted Firebringer' isn't.

She literally put him in a list of players she was considering targeting. I think it is pretty clear at that point she HAD forgotten.

Firebringer is also on this list

[Klick]

I think there are two somewhat reasonable possibilities

1 - Firebringer is town and was targeted
2- Firebringer is scum and him or one of his buddies randed the role, so they knew the Caterer hit scum

[Klick]

I have a theory on the setup as a whole but I want to see all D2 roles first.

[Klick]

hmmm.

if black is less stupid than I am that does make targeting fb a little more likely than I was giving it credit for. Although maybe not because she did still put gif in the poe.

Still think the most likely thing is she targeted klick but if she did forget and target gif that would explain it being randed to fb as well.

I'm surprised that you think 'Black forgot about GIF's commute and targeted him' is plausible but 'Black targeted Firebringer' isn't.

She literally put him in a list of players she was considering targeting. I think it is pretty clear at that point she HAD forgotten.

Firebringer is also on this list

This is so disingenuous. Whether firebringer is on the list or not is irrelevant to whether or not black forgot gif was a commuter. It is also irrelevant to the fact that GIF and you were the two people who black was most strongly scum reading from looking back over her posts and therefore are in my opinion much more likely to be targeted by black despite the fact that you are all in the same list. It's ALSO irrelevant to the fact that given the game state you are a far more valuable and therefore likely clear attempt than firebringer or GIF as well.

Are we back to trying to hit me with random gotchas? This is such a shit response.

You want me to argue against your representation of what Black would be most likely to choose to do last night

I'm not fucking Black
Neither are you.

Firebringer is an entirely viable target for Black to have chosen based on

him being in the PoE

and

Black saying she was going to target within the PoE

. Based on Firebringer getting the Caterer, I think that is the most obvious and likely conclusion to come to.

You can make whatever additional hypotheses you want from the info we have. If they include Black targeting me, they're wrong (barring some kind of blocking shenanigans), but I can't really argue against them effectively.

[Klick]

I'm not really sure what Cop meta I've been missing all these years where people's biggest suspects are *the most likely by far* to be targeted by a check. I've never known that to be a particularly common strategy for using a Cop or equivalent.

I suspect Black just thought I was scum and figured she would target someone who was more of a question mark.

[Klick]

You've also now chose to focus on one minutia of my response to your question about why I think you're scum for like 3=4 responses now and entirely ignored the rest of it.

I've only got so much time in the morning before I go to work and decided to respond to things that seemed important.

[Klick]

GIF as someone in POE why didnt you ask/hint town to not target you?

Because that list was black’s PoE reads provided upon being asked, not a list of peeps to target from.

She did later say that she intended to target within that PoE

[Klick]

Combination of things.

I thought the game state didn't make a lot of sense yesterday unless you or titus was scum.

I was here yesterday but with my new shiny confirmation bias my new interpretation of what happened yesterday is that scum kind of assumed I'd be a very open and shut mislim but then Titus became much more viable than they expected and they rolled with it.

My PoE is not particularly wide and you're in it. I struggle to create scum teams you're not a part of.

I'm not sure what response you're expecting to this from me

I think the way you've played this game doesn't make a lot of sense from a town perspective. I think you have been consistently advancing anti-town outcomes. I just went back and reread the way you interacted with the DE wagon and I don't think you were particularly open to the possibility of him being town. I know you'll probably disagree with this but I think the way you utilized meta to find yourself onto that wagon and end up on it at the end of the day isn't alleviated you of a lot of responsibility and imo doesn't square with your later explanation of how you approach meta in general.

How does it not square with my explanation of how I approach meta

I'm not really sure how being wrong about DragonEater being scum and 'not being open to the possibility of him being town' makes me scum

[Klick]

You're saying that Black likely targeted Firebringer based on him being in her PoE

We're saying that Black likely targeted you based on you being in her PoE AND her outright saying you were scum.

I'm saying that Black likely targeted Firebringer based on him being in her PoE AND Firebringer having the Caterer role.

Black outright saying I'm scum makes her less likely to target me, not more. People don't normally use Cop checks on people they already feel sure are scum. They use them on uncertain slots.

[Klick]

Since fucking when is the meta that people use checks on the slots they're most certain are scum lmfao

[Klick]

Do you want to argue WHY that is wrong or do you just want to call it bullshit and COMMON FUCKING SENSE and completely disregard it when I flip

[Klick]

Show me a single game in the last like 3 years where a Cop-equivalent chose to target their strongest scumread and I'll self-vote

[Klick]

/inb4 you link to this game

[Klick]

Ok Klick assume you're already dead and we're on D4, I think this day will be more useful if you do that but this continous back and forth between you and everyone who suspects you is doing nothing for both parts

The reasons people suspect me are lazy and complete bullshit and make me have little faith that tomorrow will be any better without me around

[Klick]

People need to be challenged on bad reasoning

[Klick]

But I'll spend the weekend solely solving, not responding to things. That seems like a fair compromise.

[Klick]

That's probably fair PB, I'm just annoyed

[Klick]

'Little reasons' don't exist
They aren't real
Things either mean someone is scum or they don't

[Klick]

If people have several different 'little reasons' to scumread me and all of them are inaccurate then am I just meant to sit there and go 'oh ok I guess you believe that!' or am I meant to go 'hey, that doesn't actually make me scum'

[Klick]

People need to be challenged on bad reasoning

I don't see bad reasoning, I see a lot of little reasons that add up to a pretty self explanatory conclusion, but you're picking every little reason as if they were independent and acting like they aren't big enough to scumread you which is not the point

It's frustrating when I have you going 'you don't need to respond to every reason someone scumreads you' while I also have Shea going 'you only responded to one of my six reasons for thinking you're scum! You're not engaging with me!'

Sorry been holding this one in all day at work

Starting right now, no responses related to reasons people scumread me for like 3 irl days.

(No promises)

[Klick]

I'm inclined to believe that FA genuinely doesn't understand the wider implications of the Caterer role?

[Klick]

It's whether that's a plausible mindset for scum to be in at this stage that's the question

My gut says no but I'm not sure

[Klick]

Pink Ball, why is there zero sign of you trying to signal to Black about targeting her for the first like 24 hours of D2?
Part of what has me concerned about that whole situation is how long it took for you to have an approach to it
Can you chat to me about what your plans were surrounding your interaction with Black?

[Klick]

so FB got the caterer and the original owner of role died?

My mind is not really in game like the rest of you, but why would scum kill black if they couldn't use that for a gambit/fake clearing themself attempt? Black seems like a very weird choice of kill tbh

Do I want to fall for this?

I'd like your opinion on 4930 specifically GIF

You could say I'm 'falling for this' but am not sure if it makes her town, whereas you seem to think it'd make her town if it was genuine but you're not sure that it is?

Does that sound accurate to where your head is at on this post?

[Klick]

I'm inclined to believe that FA genuinely doesn't understand the wider implications of the Caterer role?

And if scum killed Black surely the Caterer role would’ve been the hot topic in scum PT ain’t it

I agree

Is it viable that FA would not be keeping up with the scum PT?

[Klick]

Pink Ball, why is there zero sign of you trying to signal to Black about targeting her for the first like 24 hours of D2?
Part of what has me concerned about that whole situation is how long it took for you to have an approach to it
Can you chat to me about what your plans were surrounding your interaction with Black?

If Black was scum and the scumteam randed the caterer, making it too obvious who I targeted last night would give them a hint of what to do around it (like making Black claim she got the role and get herself fake cleared). I saw Black's first post and I thought "oh she didn't get it" and went looking for who else could've got it, that's why I started interacting with Titus who was suggesting it was important to pair herself with whoever had her role on D1 which made sense for the caterer, but since Black didn't get it, it made no sense to reveal who I targeted if I could get Black limmed (I put Black as my biggest scumread here).

I was not interested in revealing I had a guilty because 1. I didn't know if it was actually a guilty (I could've been roleblocked/jailkept/whatever) and 2. the caterer is the only role that requires someone claiming they got it to actually know that it worked, giving information to the scumteam on who has what and know what to do during the night. The plan was to reveal D1's roles and targets, not D2's roles, and the ideal world would have been one where Black hints she got the role but doesn't reveal how it works, but she didn't get the hint until too late.

So you read Black's first post D2 and decided she didn't have your role, but didn't consider her second post two minutes later which made it really clear that she did have your role?

This really confuses me

[Klick]

I don't understand how you could have targeted Black and then read 2565 and concluded that she didn't have your role.

[Klick]

Klick are you kidding right. I'm not saying that this

Third smh

Is her first post. I'm saying that this

Whoever had my role last night should be able to clear me as town or confirm the person they targeted is scum. Unless they targeted Fey in which case that's pretty unfortunate

Is her first post. You actually read what I just posted and thought "Pink Ball read Black post "third smh" and assumed immediately that she didn't get the caterer"?

How could you have possibly interpreted clear signals that Black had your N1 role as the opposite of that???

[Klick]

And no, I was in fact not kidding, I just think your actual explanation makes even less sense than thinking 2562 was the post you were referring to.

[Klick]

I don't understand your perspective and that is the reason I'm asking questions about it
I'm not doing it as some gotcha to get to conclude you're scum
Understanding why you interpreted Black's claim as explicitly not having your role when it said a lot of things related to your role will help me sort you

[Klick]

How could you have possibly interpreted clear signals that Black had your N1 role as the opposite of that???

I'm not a native english speaker, and even if I was, I'm not the only one who has been confused by this fucking mechanics, thank you very much

Explain how you interpreted Black's post then
What did you think she was claiming? Why did you think it didn't fit with Caterer?
I'm not trying to poke a hornet's nest I actually just want to understand what you were thinking

[Klick]

I hear and process that you misunderstood it and it had to do with English not being your first language

What DID you think Black was claiming. IN WHAT WAY did you misunderstand it. That is what I'm asking and I don't feel like I've received an answer to that.

PEdit: okay, thank you.

[Klick]

That tracks very well with your posting at the time and I am back to thinking you're just town.

[Klick]

You told me I'm not meant to respond to posts like that

[Klick]

I wasn't trying to jab at your fucking English reading comprehension I'm not an absolute asshole.

[Klick]

My problem with your behavior there is more on a logical level than on a comprehension level

Like my immediate thought upon having your role and seeing Black's first post would be something along the lines of 'okay, she is claiming something *very similar* to what she should be claiming if my target went through...'

Instead of 'her claim doesn't 100% match up so she obviously didn't get my role at all'

But I'm not you
Which is why I wanted to understand more about why you did it

[Klick]

Like, Black is the one who explicitly failed to comprehend the role correctly at first, not you

[Klick]

Ok Klick but this all started with you stating concerns about how I dealt with Black:

I think Pink Ball having the role originally as scum, it randomly going to Black, and Pink Ball claiming to have targeted Black is a viable theory.

Part of what has me concerned about that whole situation is how long it took for you to have an approach to it

But you're not acknowleding what I've stated a couple of times now: how, if I'm scum and originally had the role on D1, misunderstand what Black said in her post when I'm looking the get myself cleared in the first place? How do the rest of my team don't get it? Why do I get chosen by my team to get myself cleared instead of my teammates?

This EXHUDES not aligned with anyone, so your conclusion about your "concern" should be "PB is obvtown", not "PB could still be scum"

I agree with the logic in this PB!
But I am a stubborn prick who likes to actually understand things before letting myself process the implications of them
I felt like I wasn't getting a straight answer to 'how did you misunderstand Black's post'
And so I pressed for an answer to that question until I got an answer to that question
And then I properly thought about what it meant
In the back of my mind I thought 'this probably makes PB town'
But I don't like getting messed about by potential scum dodging questions that should be answerable
So I get answers then I make judgements

That's the extent to which I'm going to explain my thoughts on this matter because otherwise we're going to get into another argument about nothing important
The takeaway is that I understand your thinking a bit more and believe you're town.

[Klick]

I'm inclined to believe that FA genuinely doesn't understand the wider implications of the Caterer role?

And if scum killed Black surely the Caterer role would’ve been the hot topic in scum PT ain’t it

I agree

Is it viable that FA would not be keeping up with the scum PT?

Even if she can’t keep up herself her teammates could keep her posted

I've not seen evidence that the rest of FA's team is invested in this game at the level that they'd be keeping FA informed of role interaction

[Klick]

That tracks

I think FA's lack of awareness of the setup is more likely to come from town than from scum. I'm hesitant to say it never comes from scum, but I see it as a lot more likely to come from town.

[Klick]

I think it's pretty clearly genuine lack of awareness though.

[Klick]

Either way what I meant back there was “do I want to treat this dum- uninformed-tell as towntell” so

Do you have any conclusive thoughts about it?

I believe she's actually uninformed, and I believe that's a towntell

What's your take?

[Klick]

Radical Rat is very suspect of Shea's 4622. They believe there was no benefit to today's Caterer claiming until tomorrow and think Shea was fishing for it.

I don't know where I stand on that but I'll put their thoughts out for consideration.

[Klick]

Radical Rat is very suspect of Shea's 4622. They believe there was no benefit to today's Caterer claiming until tomorrow and think Shea was fishing for it.

I don't know where I stand on that but I'll put their thoughts out for consideration.

hint, I thought it would be you and didn't feel like tunneling you all day if you were somehow confirmed.

But keep grasping at straws my guy.

Radical Rat's pronouns are they/them.

[Klick]

Fiiiiiine

VOTE: Klick

Vote2: Klick

See y'all D4.

[insert reaction here]

[Klick]

I'm not the one making the fucking point. And that's really fucking obvious from context.

[Klick]

Likewise.

VOTE: Klick
I'm not tactically using shit. Piss off.

[Klick]

I believe Drixx and Shea are the most likely players to be scum here. Beyond that, fuck knows. Good luck town!

[Klick]

STD is never ever scum here
I think {Dunn, GIF, Pink Ball, Firebringer} contains 1 scum at most

That leaves Drixx, FA, Shea, Lovers

I think all three of those have potential
FA feels towny but it's not really like ironclad

I also think there are worlds where the Lovers are scum, they have yet to be confirmed and confirming them has inherent risk
It's not particularly likely but it's possible

I think it's worth investigating the possibility that the same 15 roles do in fact exist in this game and additional roles are fakeclaims by scum. I think dead players 'receiving' roles is evidence that one role goes to each slot in the game and there aren't more than 15. Scum could have received fakeclaim ideas. Mech players can run the numbers on potential teams of players that would have to be lying for that to be true. I think it makes more sense than the mainline narrative that there are more than 15 roles.

I apologise for contributing to this game being unpleasant at times. Most of you are lovely. I'll go back to avoiding the rest.

Peace.

[Klick]

It doesn't really move the needle much at all from what I can tell?

[Klick]

You're saying that like me getting eliminated today wasn't a foregone conclusion

[Klick]

I self voted because I don't think it is of much relative harm to town compared to not doing so and I no longer want to be in this game

[Klick]

You're fine
Make sure tomorrow is better.

[Klick]

Well played scum.