Mini Normal 2325 | Game Over

[JacksonVirgo]

because that'd be way too many confirmable towns in one go.

My current thoughts is that you're macho for that exact reason but not sure

[JacksonVirgo]

would jailkeeping a mason stop them talking in the night

Nah

[JacksonVirgo]

How about we both post a synopsis at the same time

[JacksonVirgo]

Then what's the point of u asking him to do that anyway

[JacksonVirgo]

Lmfao

[JacksonVirgo]

Then what's the point of u asking him to do that anyway

like, what i mean is that it doesn't change anything if you two do it together

Then allow me to do the synopsis instead

[JacksonVirgo]

this also means luca is absolutely pocketed by jackson but that's nothing surprising

Jacob would have had to have pocketed Luca to set this all up

[JacksonVirgo]

I got the whole synopsis in my clipboard

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Page 1 Synopsis

Luca and Jacob greet each other with a simple "Hello" (like exactly that lmfao). Jacob apologizes for being on Luca as he didn't mean to but tells Luca that he can press Psyche if he'd like. Luca acknowledges this and just says that Jacob can do whatever he's comfortable with, and he in fact likes Psyche's reaction. Jacob thinks that bug/OW are scummy. Luca then things he should leae a crumb in their 24th post to encode some way to claim masonry later. Jacob then says he should probably do the same (woah pro gamer strats). Luca then goes an explains typical masonry softing to Jacob the newbie mason. Luca thinks that bug is wolf, jacob then decides to sheep this read for the sake of the masonry (pro gamer strats). Jacob calls out post 88 as his soft, while Luca realises he did his 24th post but forgot to crumb like an absolute chump but will recover in his 42nd post instead, and in 170 he quote the 24th post in reference to Jacobs username (what a cool soft) but then decided to start distancing to avoid getting killed by the mofai (oh no so bad) Jacob then asks if he should hold the mason card in reserve in the event that Luca had bit the dust. End of Page (wow super cool)

[JacksonVirgo]

Post numbers are post numbers in this thread, not the masonry. Very cool

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't want to convince you that we're real, I want you dead

[JacksonVirgo]

I've been banking the masonry claim for so fucking long that I got blue balls from it, getting called out for the reasons I have is actually

insane

knowing I had this up my sleeve. I just couldn't do it, the plan was to try our best to try and get Gypyx out without claiming so that a non-confirmed but likely town person dies and we keep the masonry in tip top shape but that was pressured out because of Ketchups insistence (not blaming you, just what happened) on Gypyx as Town and as they're near confirmed town minus possible pairing with OW then we figured that it was no longer beneficial to keep it hidden. We had decided to ease the claim in somewhat to seek for possible TMI as I had caught Gypyx possibly TMI'ing in a few places but nothing substantial there just a feeling.

[JacksonVirgo]

I was stuck between the huge urge of just claiming, and holding back and seeing what comes from it. Holy hell that was difficult to do

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Page 1 Synopsis

Luca and Jacob greet each other with a simple "Hello" (like exactly that lmfao). Jacob apologizes for being on Luca as he didn't mean to but tells Luca that he can press Psyche if he'd like. Luca acknowledges this and just says that Jacob can do whatever he's comfortable with, and he in fact likes Psyche's reaction. Jacob thinks that bug/OW are scummy. Luca then things he should leae a crumb in their 24th post to encode some way to claim masonry later. Jacob then says he should probably do the same (woah pro gamer strats). Luca then goes an explains typical masonry softing to Jacob the newbie mason. Luca thinks that bug is wolf, jacob then decides to sheep this read for the sake of the masonry (pro gamer strats). Jacob calls out post 88 as his soft, while Luca realises he did his 24th post but forgot to crumb like an absolute chump

but will recover in his 42nd post instead

, and in 170 he quote the 24th post in reference to Jacobs username (what a cool soft) but then decided to start distancing to avoid getting killed by the mofai (oh no so bad) Jacob then asks if he should hold the mason card in reserve in the event that Luca had bit the dust. End of Page (wow super cool)

Then why did Jacob never make the effort to get to post 42? he was only 8 posts off

That was Luca's plan, not Jacobs

[JacksonVirgo]

Or maybeI'm not understanding your question?

[JacksonVirgo]

I've been banking the masonry claim for so fucking long that I got blue balls from it, getting called out for the reasons I have is actually

insane

knowing I had this up my sleeve. I just couldn't do it, the plan was to try our best to try and get Gypyx out without claiming so that a non-confirmed but likely town person dies and we keep the masonry in tip top shape but that was pressured out because of Ketchups insistence (not blaming you, just what happened) on Gypyx as Town and as they're near confirmed town minus possible pairing with OW then we figured that it was no longer beneficial to keep it hidden. We had decided to ease the claim in somewhat to seek for possible TMI as I had caught Gypyx possibly TMI'ing in a few places but nothing substantial there just a feeling.

WHY ARE YOU HOLDING OFF ON CLAIMING THE MASONRY WE'RE IN ELO

this is idiotic behaviour and anyone who belives this masonry story loses any credibility for their mechanical views in my eyes

Mafia is a game about information. Withholding information from the mafia is a strong tool, it trapped you in a shitty position did it not lmfao. It was optimal, there was no need to claim.

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Page 1 Synopsis

Luca and Jacob greet each other with a simple "Hello" (like exactly that lmfao). Jacob apologizes for being on Luca as he didn't mean to but tells Luca that he can press Psyche if he'd like. Luca acknowledges this and just says that Jacob can do whatever he's comfortable with, and he in fact likes Psyche's reaction. Jacob thinks that bug/OW are scummy. Luca then things he should leae a crumb in their 24th post to encode some way to claim masonry later. Jacob then says he should probably do the same (woah pro gamer strats). Luca then goes an explains typical masonry softing to Jacob the newbie mason. Luca thinks that bug is wolf, jacob then decides to sheep this read for the sake of the masonry (pro gamer strats). Jacob calls out post 88 as his soft, while Luca realises he did his 24th post but forgot to crumb like an absolute chump

but will recover in his 42nd post instead

, and in 170 he quote the 24th post in reference to Jacobs username (what a cool soft) but then decided to start distancing to avoid getting killed by the mofai (oh no so bad) Jacob then asks if he should hold the mason card in reserve in the event that Luca had bit the dust. End of Page (wow super cool)

Then why did Jacob never make the effort to get to post 42? he was only 8 posts off

That was Luca's plan, not Jacobs

Ok, what was Jacob's soft in post 88?

I'm not sure, I didn't check post 88

[JacksonVirgo]

You already considered me confscum, what's the difference

[JacksonVirgo]

Ketchup if you vote psyche then it'll be clear psyche is scum.

Holy fuck you're desperate lmfao

[JacksonVirgo]

Possible scenarios:

a) Luca and Jackson are masons
b) Luca and Jackson are scum.

I guess they can't be apart actually

I fear Luca sprinkled in mason claims early as scum, prepared to use if necessary with one of his teammates. he never crumbed who he was mason with

Mhm, why would we pair so strongly just to get this elim when Luca had a pretty free ride to victory given they just let Gypyx's solve win the game for them.
Psyche dies, I die, Black dies. In that order or until town gets flipped. There was no need for this claim.

Gypyx is just wolf here

[JacksonVirgo]

Ketchup if you vote psyche then it'll be clear psyche is scum.

Holy fuck you're desperate lmfao

? If I'm scum then scum still can't win with a ketchup vote

Did I call you scum? I said you were desperate

[JacksonVirgo]

And even so, taking that as you will they wouldn't be clear scum. Your alignment isn't confirmed.

[JacksonVirgo]

Ketchup if you vote psyche then it'll be clear psyche is scum.

I can't risk a team like Gypyx/Black/Outworld punishing my vote

That's ironically the solve Luca suggested

[JacksonVirgo]

Only way I'm scum is if I'm scum with gypyx and ower I think

Why ower?

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Page 1 Synopsis

Luca and Jacob greet each other with a simple "Hello" (like exactly that lmfao). Jacob apologizes for being on Luca as he didn't mean to but tells Luca that he can press Psyche if he'd like. Luca acknowledges this and just says that Jacob can do whatever he's comfortable with, and he in fact likes Psyche's reaction. Jacob thinks that bug/OW are scummy. Luca then things he should leae a crumb in their 24th post to encode some way to claim masonry later. Jacob then says he should probably do the same (woah pro gamer strats). Luca then goes an explains typical masonry softing to Jacob the newbie mason. Luca thinks that bug is wolf, jacob then decides to sheep this read for the sake of the masonry (pro gamer strats). Jacob calls out post 88 as his soft, while Luca realises he did his 24th post but forgot to crumb like an absolute chump

but will recover in his 42nd post instead

, and in 170 he quote the 24th post in reference to Jacobs username (what a cool soft) but then decided to start distancing to avoid getting killed by the mofai (oh no so bad) Jacob then asks if he should hold the mason card in reserve in the event that Luca had bit the dust. End of Page (wow super cool)

Then why did Jacob never make the effort to get to post 42? he was only 8 posts off

That was Luca's plan, not Jacobs

Ok, what was Jacob's soft in post 88?

I'm not sure, I didn't check post 88

I'm not seeing anything

It's likely he was very scared to be too obvious and made it super small, I don't really care too much to look personally

[JacksonVirgo]

Only way I'm scum is if I'm scum with gypyx and ower I think

Why ower?

Hu claimed jailkeeper

Ower claimed macho

there wouldn't be a macho role without any protectives

I think the team is actually Gypyx/Black/OW, I think Luca is on the ball

[JacksonVirgo]

can i get more page synopses from that mason thread? specifically interested in d2

Sure, want from the point I repped in? It was top of page 3

[JacksonVirgo]

What's ur thoughts on what Black is doing then

[JacksonVirgo]

can i get more page synopses from that mason thread? specifically interested in d2

Not D2 but I think this is better? I can do both just lemme know

Spoiler:

Thomith announces my arrival like a champ. I ask if we're claimed or not, deducing before I got an answer that we weren't because Drew was voting Luca but he told me that he had crumbed quite thoroughly D1. I was told that Drew was vigi but I said that I wanted to try and pretend that I didn't know as to not risk leaking TMI to the wolves that I'm in a masonry. I then noted my silly lil masonry soft in 1338 which I felt was super clever ahahaha. Luca said he believes the towncore to be ketchup, drew, psyche, black and then the masonry which I agreed with for the most part. I then talk through my thoughts as to not feeling it's Titus anymore, Luca suggesting to vote Hu Tao instead as Luca had also had her and gypyx as a scum-read. I note my town-read on Ketchup but was unable to get through a few behavioural issues that kept tripping me up and that I wanted to test it a bit (of which I did). Luca says that he thinks Gypis softing PR (and a small bit later ketchup too) of which I agreed and thought it had to be a clear on Hu Tao but decided to disregard it until they were to claim because we already had a masonry and a vigilante. He thinks it's probably logical to throw titus to the grave and then massclaim tomorrow but it was an unsatisfiying elim which I agree with but I didn't post that on this page. He said that he thinks that if he's wrong on a TR it's probably black but he doubts it cuz of her recent posting.

[JacksonVirgo]

Fypov why can't it be psyche black and ower

I'm confident in my reads, I've heavily scum-read them since I came in and it kept getting worse and I town-leaned psyche a lot of the game. Just based on my reads I don't think I'm ever wrong here, and thought that even before the red-check

[JacksonVirgo]

Which is why I said that if I'm wrong, I was never going to be winning this

[JacksonVirgo]

@jackson / actually @everyone

ok so, let's go, i'm gonna entertain you being truthful for 1 minute, counting now

why the fuck would i be so agressive on you, especially since you think i'm scumbuddy with someone who's fakeclaiming neap, i KNOW there is more unclaimed town power and yet when i see a townie who very clearly is looking for something specific, i wonder what that is

psyche knows what is going on and as such can tailor his responses to best fit the situation

I don't know who you're paired with, I can only speculate but I think you're a wolf nmw and everything else needs to fit alongside that.

[JacksonVirgo]

can i get more page synopses from that mason thread? specifically interested in d2

Not D2 but I think this is better? I can do both just lemme know

Spoiler:

Thomith announces my arrival like a champ

1

. I ask if we're claimed or not

2

, deducing before I got an answer that we weren't because Drew was voting Luca

3

but he told me that he had crumbed quite thoroughly D1

4

. I was told that Drew was vigi

5

but I said that I wanted to try and pretend that I didn't know as to not risk leaking TMI to the wolves that I'm in a masonry

6

. I then noted my silly lil masonry soft in 1338 which I felt was super clever ahahaha

7

. Luca said he believes the towncore to be ketchup, drew, psyche, black and then the masonry which I agreed with for the most part

8/9

. I then talk through my thoughts as to not feeling it's Titus anymore

10

, Luca suggesting to vote Hu Tao instead as Luca had also had her and gypyx as a scum-read

11

. I note my town-read on Ketchup but was unable to get through a few behavioural issues that kept tripping me up and that I wanted to test it a bit (of which I did)

12

. Luca says that he thinks Gypis softing PR

13

(and a small bit later ketchup too)

14

of which I agreed and thought it had to be a clear on Hu Tao but decided to disregard it until they were to claim because we already had a masonry and a vigilante

15

. He thinks it's probably logical to throw titus to the grave and then massclaim tomorrow

16

but it was an unsatisfiying elim which I agree

17

with but I didn't post that on this page. He said that he thinks that if he's wrong on a TR it's probably black but he doubts it cuz of her recent posting.

18

and this is supposed to take multiple pages?

almost sounds like there was a 3rd player you don't wanna acknowledge

Just over half of page 3 from when i repped in to the end of page. There's like 2-3 posts above responding to Jacob

[JacksonVirgo]

Don't patronise me

[JacksonVirgo]

Don't fuckin' patronize me

[JacksonVirgo]

why isn't luca voting me?

He wanted to hammer

[JacksonVirgo]

That's rude as fuck, how dare you

[JacksonVirgo]

Genuinely, how dare you

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm leaving. Mislim and win your fucking game Gypyx. Hope this makes your win really feel good

[JacksonVirgo]

Did our best to keep it lowkey so that we could survive with the entire masonry intact after you go out

You don't know that you'll survive the night, though

Sure, but that doesn't mean I can't try. Claiming without reason is suboptimal, keeping information away from mafia where possible is beneficial as they hold the advantage with information inherently

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, Luca, one of you. What were the last things Jacob said in the mason thread before he replaced out?

On night start, he said that he was here and that it probably makes sense to look at Dann's reads since he's confirmed town. Then he was goneso and in I pop

[JacksonVirgo]

I see Luca beat me to it but there you go nonetheless

[JacksonVirgo]

work on Jackson unvoting her then

What benefit does it have anymore?

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, Luca, one of you. What were the last things Jacob said in the mason thread before he replaced out?

I remember without looking that he said maybe we should take Dann's reads into account as he flipped town.

despite the fact that Dann's 3 main scum reads were all confirmed town?

Now look at the thread and tell me, specifically(if paraphrased), what were Jacob's last two messages in the mason PT?

We can't tell you specifics, that's against the rules. I paraphrased the last two messages though

[JacksonVirgo]

Hu Tao, who did you block

[JacksonVirgo]

You are very much not, who did you block

[JacksonVirgo]

If it doesn't matter, just say who you blocked?

Pedit: If you're wolf it'd be gyp/ow and yourself. But I don't think it is the case but I do wanna know who you blocked

[JacksonVirgo]

Can you fuck off, I don't care what you think after you directly insult me

[JacksonVirgo]

Can you fuck off, I don't care what you think after you directly insult me

i don't care either i'm reaffirming that hu tao doesn't need to claim

I'm going to be taking a step back from this game, I don't like it when I get mad at somebody and I like you a lot as a person and as a player but this game has been fucked. I don't appreciate you going out of your way to insult me without due reason. You believe I am a wolf, there is no need to directly insult me as a player, it was uncalled for. If you're doing this specifically get me riled up and increase your chances, I am disappointed that you went this far and I am probably going to avoid playing with you in the future. I am sorry for telling you to fuck off, that was uncalled for and I knew it would only would escalate things which is why I had been trying my best to soften my words regarding you, which you also decided to pick on. All in all, you upset me and I'm not okay with that anymore. If I upset you, I am also sorry I never intended to I was always trying my best to keep civil discourse where possible and if I slipped up when doing that out of me being emotional then I'm sorry. I'm taking a step back as I said, see you all tomorrow. I'm saying this, and leaving in the hopes you do not abuse this fact like you seemed to try and do previously not just with me but with multiple slots.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm writing up a deeper analysis of Gypyx as we speak, I want to try and write it in a way that removes as much bias as I can as well as outlining the assumptions that I can catch that I am using to come to the conclusion that I have but I'm only human so if anyt hing seems confusing please just ask me, I'll disclaim this again when it's ready to send. I'm about halfway done but I'm not fully expecting it to be finished before I go to sleep.

[JacksonVirgo]

That's fine, I just want this game to conclude in a way where if I lose here I did the best I reasonably could

[JacksonVirgo]

i mean, this game is basically me vs psyche on one side and JV + Luca vs Hu Tao + Outworld on the other

speaking from a mechanical sense at least

This is just outright wrong if you're insinuating we think the solve is hutao/outworld. We're currently under the current assumption, both of us so we're fairly confident, that it's Gypyx/Black/Outworld as the likely solve. I personally think that if you're a wolf, there has also got to be a wolf in your initial solve which is Psyche, Black and myself and well we both know (luca and I) that it's not me so I'm trying to sort between Psyche and Black. I am thinking Black is the most likely given the two choices considering how everything has gone down so that's where I'm lined up at the moment

Hu Tao makes a good point that it's unlikely to be her without Outworld, but I also don't see both being paired so I think it's just Outworld and the neapolitan was made specifically to find the three roles that would otherwise be confirmed town which would be the masonry and then the vigilante. I am not sure why they are Macho which is the one thing tripping me up but considering it's either true, or a fake-claim I think it's just gotta be a fakeclaim made for a specific purpose but I am tripping myself up over that in particular. If it's not you as a wolf, and it's truly Psyche it would need to also be Psyche/Black because you are not hammered.

With this in mind, as a rogue thought it might genuinely be optimal to eliminate Black moreso than either one of you in the off chance that I am wrong but I doubt that gets swung and that does make me feel a little uncomfortable because it's less certain to me than my read on you for instance.

[JacksonVirgo]

Idk I’ve never played before, is this normal?

Yeah this isn't typically out of the ordinary given the information that's public*
Waiting on Luca and then I'm gonna analyse the game

This was also a soft that I was withholding information, forgot to call this one out. The asterix in particular

[JacksonVirgo]

and me i guess since i think Outworld wouldn't claim a role with such anti-synergy with the claim of his partner (psyche)

You stumbled onto the solve that luca and I are currently at, we love to see it

[JacksonVirgo]

anyways now that the rage is kinda going down i'm still a bit pissed at the delayed mason claim but at least it's consistent with jackson's play through the day

I don't think, if they are masons, to delay is completely unreasonable, although they did leave it perchance a bit late, scary times.

I think this day would've been way more productive for all of us if jackson confirmed himself as town rather than what's happening now where i just don't know if he's scum or town

It's why we decided to claim when we did to try and minimise the harm to the town and maximise utility

[JacksonVirgo]

That isn't a lot of power at all. Vig is a typically negative utility role, JK can block the kills in two ways and there's a possible scum neapolitan. Having a weak investigative with a masonry makes sense, I expected there to be

none

when I was doing setup speculation with Luca which is why I distrusted you having a clear on Hu Tao which luca and I theorized about. The scum would have roles to compensate and I don't think that's such a farfetched idea even with just a neapolitan and some other weakish PR role that scum may have.

[JacksonVirgo]

hopefully this give me town points

I was meaning the reverse, the thought process we're having is genuine because you had also then come to the conclusion yourself. Not saying you believe it, but the conclusion of the thought process

[JacksonVirgo]

yeah that's fair but i'm just exausted especially since this just looks like i dug my own grave with important peoples

Can you elaborate on this?

[JacksonVirgo]

hopefully this give me town points

I was meaning the reverse, the thought process we're having is genuine because you had also then come to the conclusion yourself. Not saying you believe it, but the conclusion of the thought process

good logic can still be wrong, in this case it is

I know it can be, I wasn't meaning anything by it except that if we are town and we're at each others throats perhaps this is your calling to fix your read on my slot

[JacksonVirgo]

It can be positive utility in outcome, but the existence is inherently negative utility

[JacksonVirgo]

It's why when I am a vigilante, I often shoot the counterwagon of a town flip regardless of my reads unless I'm almost certain.

[JacksonVirgo]

It can be positive utility in outcome, but the existence is inherently negative utility

killing scummy towns isn't neg utility

I don't have the time to go into detail but the role is generally negative utility that can still benefit the town, it's incredibly swingy

[JacksonVirgo]

I'll explain post-game if necessary, I don't have the energy to do so rn

[JacksonVirgo]

What's so hard about claiming who you blocked?

He does raise a good point. If Hu Tao and OutWorld both fakeclaimed, they'd know there was hidden town power, and so be reluctant to reveal the block

Mhm, I was under the impression scum knew there were some sketchy shit happening. It's why I was skeptical of Gypyx's seeming TMI about "the setup as we know it" but because of the timing and Luca not claiming yet I had to throw that feeling away as circumstantial at best

[JacksonVirgo]

I was never asking for no reason, and the refusal to answer a simple question looked horrid

[JacksonVirgo]

so assuming jackson is town mason black must be scum since other i would've gotten quickhammered by now (this is Gypyx pov)

Mhm, I did say that in my post before that if it's Psyche, it must also then by extension be Black (from my pov)

[JacksonVirgo]

I am baffled at how the game is suddenly shifting to sanity

[JacksonVirgo]

Anyway, got a "date" that I gotta go to so catch you all later

[JacksonVirgo]

Before I go though, I town-read both Black and Psyche and if you're town that would mean I would have to go against a red-check, my town-reads and my strongest scum-read to flip my vote from you to psyche. So if you're town, good luck with that one

[JacksonVirgo]

But because of that exact line of reasoning, that is the reason I unvoted when psyche first claimed. I am not stupid, I know when I could be getting played

[JacksonVirgo]

Anyway, got a "date" that I gotta go to so catch you all later

What happened to your girlfriend? ):

Lmao I call it a date cuz it's funny, just hopping in a voice call to do weekly meetings with my co-owner of my discord mafia server. We call it e-dating cuz it's hilarious and we have a warped sense of humour

[JacksonVirgo]

I want to try and think about all the worlds where you're a wolf (gypyx) and see if Black is in most of them. I'm willing to take the risk of shooting them if the chance is high enough if anybody else would be willing to do the same. But that does mean delaying handling the 1v1 until tomorrow and I am not yet confident that this is the right move, just throwing an idea out for in case Ketchup and I don't align our reads. I don't think it's a great idea at all to vote seperately considering he is likely confirmed town and well I'm in a masonry. Splitting votes where we need all town votes to hammer somebody is a stupid idea

[JacksonVirgo]

No elim might be the best option here, actually no. It is the best option

VOTE: no elim

[JacksonVirgo]

UNVOTE: sure

[JacksonVirgo]

Will in a sec, on call

[JacksonVirgo]

And by a sec, three hours approx

[JacksonVirgo]

My full Gypyx case

Spoiler:

[JacksonVirgo]

My full Gypyx case

Spoiler:

I am deliberately not going to open this post for now, I'm going to try to get my own thoughts and if blah then blah thoughts down that I haven't done yet. Excited to read all your thoughts though, this should be really useful. But I want to ignore bias

ketchup just need you to know that you're comedy gold and i actually love you

He's gonna be blown away by my perfect analysis skills here

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: My actual case

I am so attracted to this man, my god

[JacksonVirgo]

Hu i think we're past the point where logic is gonna make ketchup back down, you probably don't gain anything from holding off anyways

you tell her mummy scummy

[JacksonVirgo]

The day I call someone mummy is the day I curl over and die

[JacksonVirgo]

We love emotionally fulfilling relationships here

[JacksonVirgo]

Ketchup, that answer should be obvious given the circumstances

[JacksonVirgo]

There's literally only one answer

[JacksonVirgo]

Well, two

[JacksonVirgo]

Everyone should supply their suggested solve, mine is { Gypyx, Black, Outworld }

[JacksonVirgo]

potentially most likely but wouldn't be surprised if I were wrong: Hu Tao, Outworld, Gypyx

You're SRing gypyx now?

[JacksonVirgo]

Aren't you in agreement with a lot of what I've been saying now anyway?

[JacksonVirgo]

Will get to you soon my guy, dw still busy

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: OutWorldEr

the walls are closing in my friend

It seems the likeliest scumteams are 1, 4 and 7

Remove your vote

[JacksonVirgo]

anyways i think i wanna kill outworld today as it's probably something me and jackson can both compromise on

Why Outworld?

[JacksonVirgo]

btw hu you absolutely should be using your jailkeep as a roleblock tonight methinks since there's 2 masons with roughly equal chances of getting killed anyways

Nope, they should very much not

[JacksonVirgo]

Deeper thoughts from Jack will come relatively soonish

[JacksonVirgo]

Delaying the 1v1 does the opposite of hurting you, you can just pick off the masonry which at the moment are the only people actively pushing for your elim, this also matters since you're pushing for the JK to go for a roleblock instead of protecting the masonry AND you chose outworld of all people and not black like I had previously decided was the elim if not for you. I don't have hope that with all of that, that you are treating this in a really genuine light

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: OutWorldEr

the walls are closing in my friend

It seems the likeliest scumteams are 1, 4 and 7

Remove your vote

Tell me where I erred in my logic and I will.

I'm never voting there

[JacksonVirgo]

of course that's incorrect, she doesn't know who the 2 scum are so it's worse than a 50:50

Took the words right out of my mouth

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: OutWorldEr

the walls are closing in my friend

It seems the likeliest scumteams are 1, 4 and 7

Remove your vote

Tell me where I erred in my logic and I will.

I'm never voting there

Jackson do you trust me

In what way?

[JacksonVirgo]

If Gypyx is town, Black has to be wolf alongside Psyche. That's the reason to vote there specifically, the outworld feels incredibly out of place to vote today. Especially paired with the fact it's already uncomfortable to even imagine a world where we don't flip Gypyx today. I am increasingly getting uncomfortable with the fact that the masonry

will

get picked off and thus it's exponentially more likely that mafia just wins because you and Hu Tao are both town-reading Gypyx to a degree that I feel will lose us the game when we lose our (the masonry) voice.

[JacksonVirgo]

This is what I had so far on the case, I don't think I'm going to be finishing it because I have other priorities now but I hope I eventually do

Spoiler:

[JacksonVirgo]

You've made assumptions that I'm not comfortable deciding the game based on

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not fighting with you anymore gypyx

[JacksonVirgo]

a lot of the reason for why i got so tunneled on you in the first place is cause a lot of the reasoning you were using to interact with me just wasn't fitting with my expectation of Vt!jackson, looking back it makes way more sense with mason!jackson

Can you elaborate on this thought?

[JacksonVirgo]

Whenever you can

[JacksonVirgo]

Can you remove your vote in the interim, I'll be back soon

[JacksonVirgo]

Well there's 25 new pages since I last checked. Not going to be able to read them today

Why are we voting outside the 1v1? Either Psyche or Gypyx have to be scum, if not both

Town dissonance is being a pain in the ass in regards to being able to flip one or the other

[JacksonVirgo]

I haven't seen the analysis but I don't think it makes any sense to risk misfading OWER when there's guaranteed scum in Gypyx/Psyche

I agree, I want to resolve the direct 1v1 but ketchup and I are at opposing views about Gypyx and as we're both Town, and we need all 5 votes of Town to push a vote through without a wolves vote being on the wagon, that's dangerous

[JacksonVirgo]

Not just ketchup, hu tao as well.

The split is approximately { ketchup, hu tao, gypyx } + { black, psyche, mel, luca } and then outworld as like a middleman that has seeded themselves into both sides.

[JacksonVirgo]

I refuse to vote psyche

[JacksonVirgo]

woah that's fucking crazy, i wonder why all the scummy people are siding with you jackson

got any idea?

All the scummy people? You mean luca, myself and my two stronger town-reads throughout the game?

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm even willing to compromise that i was wrong on one of my town-reads, don't say shit like that. You're picking a fight with me

[JacksonVirgo]

I think the solve is black, gypyx and outworld. I'm fairly confident now

[JacksonVirgo]

Ok so OWER just needs to decide who he thinks is scum. He can either hammer Gypyx or he can vote Psyche and I'll hammer

That would mean you would be hammering Psyche without either mason on the wagon

[JacksonVirgo]

I wanna hear ketchup out but I plan to place my vote back on you

[JacksonVirgo]

I think the solve is black, gypyx and outworld. I'm fairly confident now

Does this mean if Gypyx flips scum you're coming after me? Why are we partnered

If Gypyx flips wolf, I'll be probably focusing Outworld specifically but then I gotta sort if it's a bus from Psyche or you're wolf. It's one or the other imo. I don't think it's hu tao, but you can argue that still

[JacksonVirgo]

You've made assumptions that I'm not comfortable deciding the game based on

Which assumptions?

I’m assuming you two are masons, but that shouldn’t be a problem for you.
I’m assuming that those two setups are too overpowered, yes, if you think I’m wrong please tell me.
The only assumption that might be eh for you is me being townie. Please, I need you to believe me. I’m VT.

I agree with your outcome, it's just I'm getting this wave of bad mumbo jumbo and it just doesn't feel right to not flip Gypyx here. It actually feels awful to consider a consolidation wagon, like genuinely awful. I think Gypyx's statement to vote Outworld specifically is a mindgame and I told Luca that specifically and I'm no sure what to make of it. It's tripping me up as previously I feel it was very clear my consolidation vote was stated to be only on Black and even then it was an uncomfortable proposition. It doesn't feel right

[JacksonVirgo]

Don’t trust your gut trust the logic

My read on Gypyx is

not

gut, it's been based on logic I've accrued since I replaced in

[JacksonVirgo]

Bloop

[JacksonVirgo]

@ketchup, do you town-read gypyx

[JacksonVirgo]

ketchup you probably have better stuff to do with your life

than slowly crumble the scum team piece by piece? no way

jackson is not gonna listen

I've asked multiple times, can you drop this. I don't want to fight, and you are being incredibly antagonistic towards me

[JacksonVirgo]

Don’t trust your gut trust the logic

My read on Gypyx is

not

gut, it's been based on logic I've accrued since I replaced in

I appreciate your confidence, but regardless of how well you think you’ve read her, there is

LITERALLY NO SCENARIO

from your p.o.v where OutWorld is scum, except the one that has 5 town power roles. It has to be safest to get out OutWorld, surely, please, admit some margin for error, please, please

Please answer my question

[JacksonVirgo]

Not saying you should be anything

[JacksonVirgo]

Do you acknowledge the fact that if you don't have Luca and myself on the wagon, any wagon is filled with scum?

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson you do realize scum has to kill Hu Tao night 4 otherwise they just lose cause she can just jailkeep the last scum even if we mislim in 4P ELo

basically the masonry is not dying you'll still have time to tunnel me out

No they don't, as it's an odd-night they can just kill them tomorrow. Scum have the freedom of action here not us

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson you do realize scum has to kill Hu Tao night 4 otherwise they just lose cause she can just jailkeep the last scum even if we mislim in 4P ELo

basically the masonry is not dying you'll still have time to tunnel me out

No they don't, as it's an odd-night they can just kill them tomorrow. Scum have the freedom of action here not us

You mean they kill hu tao tonight?

No, I don't

[JacksonVirgo]

The main fear I have is that Gypyx has you and Hu Tao by the reigns, especially Hu Tao. I fear that if they don't go out today, they won't go out and we lose

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm literally leveraging Black's vote here, someone who I think is a wolf to get Gypyx out of the game. This is literally going to be the only chance we get

[JacksonVirgo]

5 votes. We have 5 remaining town

[JacksonVirgo]

And Hu Tao is off wagon

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson you do realize scum has to kill Hu Tao night 4 otherwise they just lose cause she can just jailkeep the last scum even if we mislim in 4P ELo

basically the masonry is not dying you'll still have time to tunnel me out

No they don't, as it's an odd-night they can just kill them tomorrow. Scum have the freedom of action here not us

You mean they kill hu tao tonight?

No, I don't

ok so let's say we kill scum today / tommorow by going outside of the shit 1v1 and actually figuring this out

D3 kill scum

N3 - Hu tao misses her jailkeep, mason1 dies
(6players)

D4 kill scum

N4 - mason2 dies
(4players)

last 1v1 between me and psyche
if we miss the kill hu tao can jailkeep anyways the last confscum

THEY NEED TO KILL HU TAO OR THIS IS A FUCKING MECH WIN FOR TOWN OK?

Nope.

N4 the JK will be killed

[JacksonVirgo]

Odd-night JK. Can't act when there's 1 wolf left if we chain-lim wolves because of that

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Gypyx

[JacksonVirgo]

It's 5 to hammer

[JacksonVirgo]

unvote until black reads my analysis at least

Nope, and give Black the freedom to jump off? No shot

[JacksonVirgo]

Luca will be voting Gypyx when he's back on. If you refuse to consolidate your vote Ketchup, then town's vote is split and we lose.

[JacksonVirgo]

I already said my solve

[JacksonVirgo]

And I already said my reason why I want you specifically, quit being manipulative

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't believe another world, I considered it

[JacksonVirgo]

Even if this game goes on without Gypyx being eliminated, this toxicity will continue and continue and I am honestly sick of it. I want this over with

[JacksonVirgo]

VC

Huge L

[JacksonVirgo]

NOONE VOTE GYPYX

Quoting this one for the lulz, hammer this brother

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh ur here

[JacksonVirgo]

I respect your input Ketchup and I will do my best to hear you out like I have been, and ultimately I understand the frustration but I do believe this does need to happen

[JacksonVirgo]

congratulations to honorary scumteam members jacksonVirgo and Luca Blight for their win in mini 2325

that would probably be a scummy worthy performance if you actually had a red PM

I'm sorry but like. If you think this is scum, that's wild.

You keep saying that

[JacksonVirgo]

1. Hu Tao / Gypyx / Outworld
2. Gypyx / Luca / Jackson
3. Gypyx / Psyche / Black
4. Gypyx / Psyche / Outworld
5. Gypyx / Black / Outworld
6. Luca / Jackson / Psyche
7. Psyche / Black / Outworld

Removing the masonry
1. Hu Tao / Gypyx / Outworld
3. Gypyx / Psyche / Black
4. Gypyx / Psyche / Outworld
5. Gypyx / Black / Outworld
7. Psyche / Black / Outworld

Gypyx is in every single one bar one. Outworld is also in every single one bar one. One is in a 50/50 who happens to also be the one that is acting toxic to the thread health. The only way Outworld is confirmed to be a wolf in all worlds is if you assume that this is impossible to be a bus, which I don't want to commit to the idea of just yet but I'm also aware this could be just because I want Gypyx out above all else.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not convinced Gypyx vs Psyche isn't a bus.

[JacksonVirgo]

I do still think ur a wolf tho

[JacksonVirgo]

1. Hu Tao / Gypyx / Outworld
2. Gypyx / Luca / Jackson
3. Gypyx / Psyche / Black
4. Gypyx / Psyche / Outworld
5. Gypyx / Black / Outworld
6. Luca / Jackson / Psyche
7. Psyche / Black / Outworld

Removing the masonry
1. Hu Tao / Gypyx / Outworld
3. Gypyx / Psyche / Black
4. Gypyx / Psyche / Outworld
5. Gypyx / Black / Outworld
7. Psyche / Black / Outworld

Gypyx is in every single one bar one. Outworld is also in every single one bar one. One is in a 50/50 who happens to also be the one that is acting toxic to the thread health. The only way Outworld is confirmed to be a wolf in all worlds is if you assume that this is impossible to be a bus, which I don't want to commit to the idea of just yet but I'm also aware this could be just because I want Gypyx out above all else.

No Jackson, I also had the logic that case 3 is a wack setup:
3. Odd-night vig, Odd-night jailkeeper, Neapolitan, 2 Masons

I give you that but there's much more to the game than just the mechanically optimal push. What's gonna happen given we flip outworld and the game continues? If I survive, Gypyx and I continue to bash our heads together and make the game absolutely miserable to play. I'm just done dude, I just want her out

[JacksonVirgo]

Bruh

[JacksonVirgo]

4. If you wish to replace out, request replacement via PM. Do not discuss replacing out in thread or suggest that another player replace out.

Just fyi

[JacksonVirgo]

Luca unvote right fucking now

[JacksonVirgo]

I am in anguish

[JacksonVirgo]

Blegh, I wanted to force ketchups hand not have my hand forced this is not what I signed up for

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Unfinished Gypyx case I probably won't finish

Opportunism Surrounding EoD1

I believe Gypyx acted opportunistic surrounding end of day 1, they were pretty consistent through the majority of day one or at least from memory but as soon as the pressure of the hammer spun around Gypyx seemed to shift their behaviour somewhat that began from post 679 where they seem to be jumping off the wagon with the preface of that if doing the action comes to bite her (Gypyx) in the ass, they would have Dannflor as a scapegoat. It reads as generally acting avoidant to responsibility for their own actions, their action in this circumstance being them removing their vote at a considerably important time in the day only to put pressure onto Dannflor in 684 in a way that feels fake, it feels like it was stated for the sake of vanity or to assert dominance in the thread moreso than them putting pressure on them in the hopes to solve Dannflor.

Scum!gypyx has the general obligation to try and control the end of day to a much more important degree than town!gypyx would and I feel like that shading on Delta's scum-reads in 690 was to try and position herself above Delta and to be able to set themselves up as a possible swing onto Delta if push comes to shove.

It feels like she's positioning herself

moreso than trying to solve the game, which comes up later to the current phase where they seemed to have tried to position themselves both regarding the results of the massclaim regarding their initial push on Psyche as well as her general solve prior to the masonry getting claimed. I tried testing and poking that solve multiple times to see if she humours a position she doesn't necessarily want or believe but if she's wrong etc which I will bring up in a subsequent section.

If you read this general period from 679 to the day conclusion at 819, can you honestly say that this behaviour is not opportunistic and the outcome of trying to position oneself when given the freedom to do so? I've called out only a few posts in particular but if I picked a random post between 679 and 819 there's a good chance it's what I would deem to be opportunistic and I welcome you to quote things for my thoughts on them because this is a minor point in comparison with my others.

This point was made under the assumption that I can accurately gauge the speed that the game occurred within when only looking back through the game's context as I was not in the game at this point and therefore if this was a super quick or super slow comparatively to how I am assuming it was then that could change my viewpoints but this is hypothetical, I am not sure if I will ever consider this to be not opportunistic.

Behaviour Surrounding Critique

Since I replaced in, I dropped a vote onto Gypyx pretty fast because I caught onto them because of the logic based in my previous section. Their response back to me was pretty bad considering it all, they decided to instead take my read for what it is, they decided to discredit my entire slot instead in 1230 with "oh no jacob rolled scum again ". I don't believe this was anywhere near justified to say if not to get in early before I can push them any further which is a common pattern for Gypyx, referring directly to them trying to shut my thoughts down around the mass-claim when I said that I solved the game. This is a consistent behaviour trope for Gypyx this game.

When I pushed back on this behaviour, they instead go back on their own beliefs and shift it to a town-read with the exact quote being "jokes aside this is a very towny start" in 1232 which seems to be them

avoiding responsibility

to shift their position to one where they attempt to get me on their good side, which is shown in a much greater light by all the praise/flattery and general niceties such as 1234, 1236 and 1439 as examples which seems to be doing very soft "puppy dog"-like wording which didn't seem to fit with their acknowledgement of their "paranoia" of me in 1201 with their "oh no it's so over we're so read oh god oh fuck no no no no no no no no no" referring to a game where I won as wolf against them. These interactions aren't consistent and the way they explain this inconsistency is just "just having fun with things" in 1448 which is once again not taking responsibility for their behaviour and just throwing it away as just a joke since the pocketing just wasn't working on me so they had to shift to

positioning themselves

in a way that benefits this position and that was to keep me in the PoE by labelling me as "yeah not pushing this cuz I have this push, but you're not townie" in 1444 which was always something I hated but never brought back up. It really is positioning themselves to be able to push anybody they need to moreso than genuinely seeming to solve the game.

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually read this time edition

[JacksonVirgo]

real*

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Unfinished Gypyx case I probably won't finish

Opportunism Surrounding EoD1

I believe Gypyx acted opportunistic surrounding end of day 1, they were pretty consistent through the majority of day one or at least from memory but as soon as the pressure of the hammer spun around Gypyx seemed to shift their behaviour somewhat that began from post 679 where they seem to be jumping off the wagon with the preface of that if doing the action comes to bite her (Gypyx) in the ass, they would have Dannflor as a scapegoat. It reads as generally acting avoidant to responsibility for their own actions, their action in this circumstance being them removing their vote at a considerably important time in the day only to put pressure onto Dannflor in 684 in a way that feels fake, it feels like it was stated for the sake of vanity or to assert dominance in the thread moreso than them putting pressure on them in the hopes to solve Dannflor.

Scum!gypyx has the general obligation to try and control the end of day to a much more important degree than town!gypyx would and I feel like that shading on Delta's scum-reads in 690 was to try and position herself above Delta and to be able to set themselves up as a possible swing onto Delta if push comes to shove.

It feels like she's positioning herself

moreso than trying to solve the game, which comes up later to the current phase where they seemed to have tried to position themselves both regarding the results of the massclaim regarding their initial push on Psyche as well as her general solve prior to the masonry getting claimed. I tried testing and poking that solve multiple times to see if she humours a position she doesn't necessarily want or believe but if she's wrong etc which I will bring up in a subsequent section.

If you read this general period from 679 to the day conclusion at 819, can you honestly say that this behaviour is not opportunistic and the outcome of trying to position oneself when given the freedom to do so? I've called out only a few posts in particular but if I picked a random post between 679 and 819 there's a good chance it's what I would deem to be opportunistic and I welcome you to quote things for my thoughts on them because this is a minor point in comparison with my others.

This point was made under the assumption that I can accurately gauge the speed that the game occurred within when only looking back through the game's context as I was not in the game at this point and therefore if this was a super quick or super slow comparatively to how I am assuming it was then that could change my viewpoints but this is hypothetical, I am not sure if I will ever consider this to be not opportunistic.

Behaviour Surrounding Critique

Since I replaced in, I dropped a vote onto Gypyx pretty fast because I caught onto them because of the logic based in my previous section. Their response back to me was pretty bad considering it all, they decided to instead take my read for what it is, they decided to discredit my entire slot instead in 1230 with "oh no jacob rolled scum again ". I don't believe this was anywhere near justified to say if not to get in early before I can push them any further which is a common pattern for Gypyx, referring directly to them trying to shut my thoughts down around the mass-claim when I said that I solved the game. This is a consistent behaviour trope for Gypyx this game.

When I pushed back on this behaviour, they instead go back on their own beliefs and shift it to a town-read with the exact quote being "jokes aside this is a very towny start" in 1232 which seems to be them

avoiding responsibility

to shift their position to one where they attempt to get me on their good side, which is shown in a much greater light by all the praise/flattery and general niceties such as 1234, 1236 and 1439 as examples which seems to be doing very soft "puppy dog"-like wording which didn't seem to fit with their acknowledgement of their "paranoia" of me in 1201 with their "oh no it's so over we're so read oh god oh fuck no no no no no no no no no" referring to a game where I won as wolf against them. These interactions aren't consistent and the way they explain this inconsistency is just "just having fun with things" in 1448 which is once again not taking responsibility for their behaviour and just throwing it away as just a joke since the pocketing just wasn't working on me so they had to shift to

positioning themselves

in a way that benefits this position and that was to keep me in the PoE by labelling me as "yeah not pushing this cuz I have this push, but you're not townie" in 1444 which was always something I hated but never brought back up. It really is positioning themselves to be able to push anybody they need to moreso than genuinely seeming to solve the game.

omg I just realised I forgot to read your last unfinished one. Is this the same as the last one?

Oh did I already post it?

[JacksonVirgo]

Lmfao, I believe every time I did it it was a gif of noah sebastian

[JacksonVirgo]

Cuz he's so attractive clearly

[JacksonVirgo]

I just wanted it out of my drafts

[JacksonVirgo]

Ahahahaha that's amazing

[JacksonVirgo]

Gypyx how confident are you in outworld

[JacksonVirgo]

Anyways jackson (no swear words here guaranteed, idk how long it'll be)

i'm really hoping here that even if our plays mutually clash into each other at max speed and that i'm probably losing a lot of symathy in your eyes (fully expecting to eat a well deserved blacklist after that), we can manage to come together and make abstraction of that to get on a better end than "Gypyx had a mental breakdown and was a huge asshole to jackson before commiting suicide by town vote, the end"

just like idk, Hu Tao / Ketchup are also town, and their perspective is as justified as yours, please hear me out as i'm saying this

idk, i'm a huge idiot so it's probably a bit late for that anyways

I don't want to be apathetic towards your slot, but it's true that I'm getting there. There's no chance I don't push you tomorrow assuming you survive and if history serves, I have very little confidence that you won't just go back to the behaviour you showed. It seems every time there's a conflict, you just barrage people with negativity and insults and I seem to be the main focal point of that probably due to me being the most vocally against you. When there was a moment of pleasantries surrounding the point of the game where you realised that the masonry was indeed just a masonry, this toxicity wasn't there but the moment I kept pushing you it came flooding back immediately. I don't hold much faith that things will turn around, and this is me explicitly overlooking the world where this is malicious.

[JacksonVirgo]

as for the other stuff while i appreciate the high standarts you're holding me to i don't think i'm *that* good at posting town stuff as scum and while stuff can change during a hiatus, this would be a massive leap in scumplay for me

I believe you're a wolf, you know that. I also believe you've done a really good job at amassing the followers you have and it is the one thing that I'm proving the most difficult with my push on you.

[JacksonVirgo]

It's actually incredibly ironic how someone I consider a wolf right now (Black) is spitting my exact thoughts and feelings and I don't like, stop it >:C

[JacksonVirgo]

I value tone and vibes incredibly low, yeah

[JacksonVirgo]

Why are you sorry?

[JacksonVirgo]

While I'm not going to pretend I'm okay with how you've been treating people, I can say that you aren't ruining the fun of the game for me at least, I'm still having a blast playing. Especially with ketchup, he's such a breath of fresh air I'm actually so glad I replaced in. I just wish you find a way to express negative feelings through ways that aren't insulting people's character and the like. For instance, why do you think the push on you is bad?

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: My response to Gypyx (disclaimer: big post)

[JacksonVirgo]

Ahahaha, I can't help myself. I'll read what you said now

[JacksonVirgo]

it's a lot of stuff but basically

> i'm not seeing the towniness in psyche, like, i would probably be less infuriated if i felt like i was being outplayed or that i could even see what's towny about Psyche, but i don't, not a single bit, and i guess the case that luca / you made anger me even more in that they're treating it as something that's plain for the eye to see while i just have no clue what i can even bring up in response cause i don't see what they're seeing

i can understeand how you're playing around your view but i just don't get how you reached it

> I came in this game with the intent of playing more confident, and yeah, one could said scummy, the fact that this is being described as *only* scummy behavior is, i hope you understeand that one, very frustrating

A lot of us not agreeing comes from us expecting and looking for different things in townies

> And simply, i'm seeing flawed logic being used on me and i'm not in the mental state to make a calm and collected answer about it i can try now but basically as i've said before there's no reason for me to play like i did around dann D1 i would know he's wrong, know he's probably not gonna regain his cred thread after a while, and *especially* know my scumbuddies (i think we're going with Hu / Outworld right now?) are not getting wagoned as a consequence of that so i can just keep getting the day goingsss

and like, while i'll try keeping this point short cause i'm feeling really bad about it, yeah, it feels like i'm being confbiased against and that sucks and i'm sorry for lashing out like this

I can only speak for myself, I do not wish to pretend that I truly understand Luca's stance on Psyche as we have barely spoke about him in the masonry. My read prior to the mass-claim existed and that may very well be influencing how I'm seeing his progression surrounding the way he claimed his red-check to some degree but all in all I fail to see why a wolf would delay really performing that gambit as much as he did, and play it off like he did.

To be more specific, I am aware that scum holding off the claim until after the mass-claim has concluded is the smarter play and I am by no means arguing it isn't but even with that in mind, he revealed his information (1816)

before

luca had claimed (1973) so this would generally tell me that his feelings were that of really wanting it to escape his lips as opposed to waiting for it to be safe to let loose the gambit. It shows he was eager, which is consistent with the behaviour before

and

after the claim with him being not super pushy or very potent about it but demanding he "gets his podium" and to ask for people's attention. His pride about the check was clear to me, and in fact mimics the feelings (albeit in my case it was more in a negative situation) I had surrounding me wanting to claim the masonry. His spongebob picture resonated with me because that was how I was feeling even at that moment, though I didn't realise that was also his intent behind it. The claim would also be conducive to some form of a "high" that be very obviously had post-claim.

I just personally fail to see how this could be viewed as scummy, I felt it was incredibly pure of heart and exactly what I would expect to happen from a general low-poster having a bombshell to drop onto the evils.

Can you rephrase this if I am understanding this wrong, but as it stands it seems like you're saying the only scummy thing that we're calling you out for is your confidence when that's pretty clearly not the case at all. I won't comment further until I get clarification as I do not wish to speak about unnecessary things but when you clarify can you tell me what part of it is frustrating, and why it's so frustrating to you?

Indeed, but this also extends to the disagreements surrounding the whole Psyche vs Gypyx perspective that Hu Tao, Ketchup and the masonry were in. I feel it's quite clear that the masonry is holding vibes to a much smaller effect than the other two who used those as a primary focus to their reads before. While ketchup is now focusing more on process of elimination based way to decide the elimination that does not remove the fact that their main style of reading people seems to be from vibes moreso than what I would consider using logical analysis. I'm by no means saying that one way is better than the other but as one side is using one way of reading (and getting one conclusion) and the other is using the other (and getting the opposite conclusion) it's clear that one of us is using the correct means of reading Gypyx and the other simply isn't and I believe I am on the right side of that and as such I would need arguments that would disprove my own to be able to realistically look to the other side and I am not getting that.

Hu Tao for instance is just labelling something as "look at this, how can you not see this as town?" which I respect that she sees it as townie but that's nowhere even close to an argument I can do anything with so I respectfully disregard it. It's things like this that make it hard for me to really talk about which side is right and wrong because usually vibe-based reads are something I cannot realistically "replicate" the thought process for because it's based on personal feelings and experience. This is not to say that I reject the idea of reading by vibe as I often do as well, but strictly only when I have no thread I can logically piece together which once I find it then that becomes the primary pin of my read.

If somebody wants to appeal directly to me, speak to me in a way that doesn't rely on feelings, vibes and the like as much as you can.

You say you aren't in a mental state to make a calm and collected answer, but that's what I need from you to really get into my read and disassemble it to find the true accuracy of it. I don't see how scum!you wouldn't play like you did surrounding end of day one, why do you say that there's no reason? What part of it, and why.

And we're going with Black and Outworld right now

Confirmation bias is always going to be something every single argument is at risk of whether it's right or wrong, that's just the way it goes. I'm always going to more likely to side with my initial thoughts than to shift to the other with any given argument but that makes the burden of proof go to you as with me personally the scale is tilted so far against you as you are in a 50/50 as my scum-read, against my town-read and (I don't wanna harp on too much about this) but your behaviour made it incredibly difficult to try and understand you and empathise with you. I've attempted quite a lot of times to make sure that I not conf-biased but it's incredibly difficult when you aren't cooperating (to put it lightly) and I do fear that if you're town that this might not be recoverable anymore.

[JacksonVirgo]

Gypyx: Psyche, Black, Mel
Outworld: Ketchup, Luca
Psyche: Gypyx

I believe that's accurate but that's going from memory

[JacksonVirgo]

Ah yeah, so 3/2/2

[JacksonVirgo]

now that i think about it, if anything, i think gypx’s contrastive confidence in her poorly-substanced reads make her more clearly scum than less. when jackson was still an option for a mislim, she was able to confidently cast their flub of the difference between a neap and a vanilla cop as an obvious scumslip while the straightforward counterfactual that he overlooked a difference between two very similar roles was effortlessly discounted. similarly her vca highlighting that her scumreads were all off wagon is incredibly superficial and basically reasoned in comparison to how strongly she values it as evidence. and as another example, she all but cleared ower solely on the basis of his claim’s “synergy” with hu tao’s jk claim until the mason claims forced her to drop it. it was always nothing! bullshit pretending to be gold abounds in her iso (most today are about me) and her case against me almost totally amounts to my inability to match this output.

You put a lot of what I disliked about her behaviour surrounding that period of the game pretty concisely, looking back at that time in the game (I say as if it was like 20 years ago) we both seemed to have pretty similar reactions to a lot of what was happening, in fact sometimes you preceded me in a more potent reaction of what I was feeling about a particular post which boosts my feelings that your train of thought is linked closely enough to mine that I feel we're in a similar boat, which

also

coincides with the similarities between the way we handled our claims.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm at a bit of an impasse as I want to state my reads and my beliefs, but I also don't want to risk demotivating Gypyx in the off chance that they're town but ultimately I'm not going to be mothering gypyx but I feel this is worth stating that I am thinking about that and I don't mean to try and make it harder to play for you for the sake of it

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm fuckin' dying over here AHAHAHA

[JacksonVirgo]

This has nothing to do with this game but I might run an experiment through an alt account where I just explicitly act as devil's advocate. Push against everything that is commonly believed, try and find counterarguments for every single thing that I can and see how effective that is as a playstyle

[JacksonVirgo]

What's Mots

[JacksonVirgo]

This has nothing to do with this game but I might run an experiment through an alt account where I just explicitly act as devil's advocate. Push against everything that is commonly believed, try and find counterarguments for every single thing that I can and see how effective that is as a playstyle

look honestly take that mostly for postgame but if this game is anything to go by this is *not* a playstyle worth pursuing

or i'm bad at it

or it's something people need to understeand you're gonna do before the start of the game

The last bit you said would be why I would be using an alt account and I'm not sure if that counts as illegal through trust tells but either way it's less a playstyle made to live long but moreso to stabilise the town's arguments and be the "mediator" person and to see if the game can advance faster and/or more accurately given that type of role being in the game.

I would need to explicitly remove my emotional attachment to reads or it doesn't work, so it'll be a lot more emotional effort as opposed to how I play now or how anybody would play but I think it'd be a cool experiment to run for a good solid amount of games and see what comes from it. Shifting to how effective this playstyle can be as a wolf.

Something to talk about in a place that isn't smack bang in the middle of a game but I just thought of it

[JacksonVirgo]

ikik, just waiting on ur response to my post

[JacksonVirgo]

Wait you can nest spoiler tags?

[JacksonVirgo]

please let's size up the posts though, lets make this more complex than team mafia

Sure thing, I'll make it so much bigger

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Readme plz

Spoiler: Woah, click meee

[JacksonVirgo]

lmao I thought you were going to have like ten

Lmfao I should have!

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm going on a date in like 10 minutes so my response to your post will have to wait, I will try and keep it nice and concise OR spoiler it and have a TL;DR blurb about each point

[JacksonVirgo]

please let's size down the posts though, this is not team mafia or anything, minis are supposed to be small and chill

I'm having a great time
What's the longest simple normal ever?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Records

somewhat outdated but i think it's a good approximation

682 irl days what the hell

Only a really quick game

[JacksonVirgo]

also please just lim me or gypx don't be cruel

I agree

[JacksonVirgo]

Yeah but like we would have to compromise for that and this town certainely isn't

I want 100% certainty. Outworld vote gets me as close as I can be to that

And if I were to say I outright refuse to vote outworld?

[JacksonVirgo]

Ok guys, iiiiiiiits strategy time!!

*cue game show music*

Here, now, kapow kapow i will consider the four non-mason non-me scum cases and try figure out what we should do on an outworld flip, and what could happen if hu Tao succeeds / fails a block

let’s get this party started

Yeah but like we would have to compromise for that and this town certainely isn't

I want 100% certainty. Outworld vote gets me as close as I can be to that

And if I were to say I outright refuse to vote outworld?

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not usually this dense, but I really don't see myself moving my vote

[JacksonVirgo]

I have yet to read Gypyx's post though

[JacksonVirgo]

Then I guess we're not eliminating today

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm not usually this dense but this is a special occasion

[JacksonVirgo]

I refuse to believe you've never been super confident about a read before and got it wrong Jackson. Admit you can make mistakes pleaseeeeeeeeeee

Never said I couldn't

[JacksonVirgo]

Wrote up my response to Gypyx but it's pretty long so spoilering it, I have a few subspoilers cuz I really wanted to use try it out ok

Spoiler: Response

[JacksonVirgo]

Analyse the game as we’re given it

[JacksonVirgo]

not vote out confscum outworld?

I will mentally reset my mind and see how I feel after

[JacksonVirgo]

But probably

[JacksonVirgo]

I’m about to start work so just wait about 10h and then I’ll talk in more depth

[JacksonVirgo]

Did outworld know I was lying and go for his teammate? Or did he believe i would genuinely slip up in the moment and rush the wrong person? This is what I need to decipher now

Wolves are bussing so they can eventually win the long game, it’s obvious as hell. They will never vote against the masonry here if they had any brains

[JacksonVirgo]

This is the biggest hehe moment of all the hehe moments