I think Cece's defense is pretty good and I liked how she questioned Zito's townread on her.In post 492, Tchill13 wrote:Arnold why do you feel that Zito is more scummy than Cece? Jj makes good points in his case against Cece.
If Cece is scum this seems to be an attempt from Cece to warn her scum partner early. She states exactly what he's doing wrong and tells him what he should do. As the BP claim came about and I CC'd there's no reason for her to take her vote off NM. It was clear NM was going to get lynched. I don't see this as an attempt at scum hunting from Cece it comes off more as a warning to her partner to me. Maybe I'm just pushing a certain view point too much which is why I'd like jj and zitos opinions.In post 175, Cece wrote:Ah no! Oh dear sorry, stupid arse week. Let's look at the last..two pages? Ok well guess I can't complain tis also my fault.
Ok have read thru again.
VOTE: NotMafia
this is not just a lurking/post more prod, a don't think it would do much b would be hypocritical, but seriously all the way those one-liners are going doesn't advance the game, at most it's just questions that he don't seem to follow up on, and I don't see a single honest scumhunting effort even implied in his posts.
It *might* just be a result of not lurking much, but my gut also says that.. I dunno, there's something there. His stuff just also feels contrived, and have difficulty seeing a town mindset behind it. For instance post 133 (I don't know how to link) is v much jumping on the bandwagon - no not even that, cause it's expressing lack of knowledge. Does he even have opinions?
Two replacements - want to see more, but liking Kal so far. jj still town, Fykus/Zito ehhh, Cero more town than before but that might be cause I find NM scummier.
How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.In post 494, jjh927 wrote:Scum is either Cece and Arnold.
People trying to push Zito are basically just patting each other on the back and not saying anything that actually indicates he's scum. Also I like how he was making an effort to gamesolve before he had to start defending himself against arguments with no merit.
I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.
So yeah, Zito is the mislynch target for scum right now, because they'd expect him to be more clued in than the other players on scumhunting and there's not going to be a better opportunity to get him lynched than today, when a couple of people had lingering suspicions on him.
and there's the fact that Cece comes off here as trying to defend NM. Even then once again Cece could be begging for NM to reply he's shit posting. That's what it seems like to me.In post 398, jjh927 wrote:Yeah I'm done fucking about with Kawl. That little exchange was hilarious but I mainly wanted other people to comment on it.
VOTE: CeceIn post 224, Cece wrote:In post 219, jjh927 wrote:That's a legitimate concern and also the reason why I was pushing this to later, but I do believe we need to do this if we're playing to win.
However, I think we can get this done efficiently and get right back into scumhunting, provided people are active. Things end up getting slowed down when someone disagrees.
We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.Why the sudden call for lynch, you two? You weren't voting him before, and I seriously doubt that shitposting (this way, anyway) is a huge scumtell.In post 220, Tchill13 wrote:I understand kawls reluctance to the strategy. Either way it's a good idea. Not BP. Unless not_mafia confirms pretty soon he's not shit posting I feel like we should lynch him.
I only made that comment because someone else brought it up.In post 498, Tchill13 wrote:Went back and re-read a few things. After a few thoughts I'm thinking Arnold or Cece should be lynched today. I'm just not sure which one. I'd prefer that jj and Zito give their reads on which of the 2 they think is scum. Arnold hammered NM and specifically stated that he doesn't think hammering there would give town cred. Specifically stating that he shouldn't get town cred stands out to me. I really, really like jj's case against Cece.
In post 394, Tchill13 wrote:Tbh if I'm scum I hammer there for town cred.
It was you in fact.In post 395, Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote:^agreed. We were waiting for Zito to come in, until I decided we had seen enough
Pedit: yeah, analyzing that wagon is pointless.
Pedit 2: I don't think hammering confscum will pocket you any towncred though.
In post 502, Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote: How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.
This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.
How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?
This is a thing I just don't understand, by the by, why couldn't you NK Kawl if he turns out to be great? Might have missed a conversation bit.In post 468, Papa Zito wrote:Or if Kawl suddenly turns on the gas and reveals himself to be the best mafia player ever then I can't NK him.
If you don't consider playstyle AI, then you can't defend the playstyle as something scum, or at least smart scum, wouldn't do. Either it's AI or its not - and the catch all "scum wouldn't do this because it's limiting" is super super broad and also disengenuous.In post 468, Papa Zito wrote:I'm insulted because that's incredibly subpar play. Scum need options, limiting myself as scum is stupid.
This is before you've 'hard data-d' on Kawl for disagreeing with the bp strat. Personally I find the way Kawl disagreed to be far more town than this one ---- it was direct and honest. This is a super early post about it - I believe shortly after jj had posted? - and it's very subtly against it. If I were looking at motivations as Zito wanted me to, there is a very clear motivation for scum Zito here - a subtle disencouragement from the IC player, when it's both early on when the strat's been proposed, but also not enough against it to be called out.In post 153, Papa Zito wrote:I get The Plan but it seems to hinge on the scums not getting a successful bp fakeclaim off. Maybe I'm not thinking things through and that's not a legit worry tho.
For someone for whom votes are so important, and I also want to stressIn post 466, Papa Zito wrote:A vote is hard data, period. That's why we force people to make them. It's a historical record of a stance at a given point in time. jfc I know this is a newbie but come on
That just makes no sense at all to me. Scum is always trying to look like they're scumhunting. So if they're doing it with bad reasoning, that's scummy to me. I don't see how bad reasoning makes you townread anyone.In post 509, jjh927 wrote:In post 502, Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote: How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.
This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.
How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?
VOTE: Arnold Schwarzenegger
First up, it doesn't matter that I disagree with the way he's doing it. It's the fact that he is doing it and he is sincere about it that makes it AI.
Next up, if you want to accuse me of being scum then say it rather than trying to get me to back off of Zito.
Finally, there were no cases on Cece and Kawl at the start of the day.
But yeah, the second point you made there reeks of scum. You're trying to get me to back off. If you made it sincerely you wouldn't be continuing to vote Zito. Oh, and the whole "when he flips town" bit is amusing. Your narrative has completely changed to fit a new circumstance.
The first two votes were on Kawl and Cece. How were there no cases on them at the start of day 2?In post 438, PenguinPower wrote:
You like the fact that Cece pushed, but you don't like the push? Isn't that exactly why you were townreading Zito?In post 513, jjh927 wrote:I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.
First, never worry about pushing too much. Trust your gut but always be willing to re-evaluate.In post 501, Tchill13 wrote:I don't see this as an attempt at scum hunting from Cece it comes off more as a warning to her partner to me. Maybe I'm just pushing a certain view point too much which is why I'd like jj and zitos opinions.
His only play today has been on me so that makes me a bit biased. I get the point though. Arnie is suddenly arguing that I'm a mislynch when his vote is sitting on me. He's not a townread but I don't think there's more evidence to point towards him then Kawl or perhaps Cece.In post 514, Tchill13 wrote:I'd also like to see Zito's response to jj voting Arnold. Like I said Cece and Arnold are my 2 scum leans at this point.
So what's different between liking Zito's bad push and liking Cece's bad push? You're townreading Zito for one and sucmreading Cece for the other. You conveniently didn't answer that.In post 517, jjh927 wrote:I can disagree with someone's logic and like the overall tone and purpose the act of sharing it conveys. Town can make bad pushes. So can scum. It's just scum do them knowing that they're false, whereas town believe them to be true.
And the first two votes were not on Kawl and Cece. That's just the first votecount. Using that as evidence means your logic is based off of post-hoc justifications that disregard something you experienced first-hand, because you responded to the actual first posts and votes of today. This is logic I can objectively disprove which has scum methodology behind it. Town don't need to rationalise their argument after they've made it, because they make their arguments with true conviction behind them rather than having to insert it afterwards. You did. Therefore you are scum.
I just get really bad feelings about jj suddenly hard defending you. How do you read this?In post 519, Papa Zito wrote:His only play today has been on me so that makes me a bit biased. I get the point though. Arnie is suddenly arguing that I'm a mislynch when his vote is sitting on me. He's not a townread but I don't think there's more evidence to point towards him then Kawl or perhaps Cece.In post 514, Tchill13 wrote:I'd also like to see Zito's response to jj voting Arnold. Like I said Cece and Arnold are my 2 scum leans at this point.
you're still not answering my question. It's like talking to a wall. I'll ask you one more time.In post 522, jjh927 wrote:I guess I haven't made clear that I like the tone and the conviction behind Cece's push? You might note that Cece went down from scumread to scumlean after she made it? Also, this idea that I'm scumreading Cece for the push is total bullshit, because I was scumreading her for this pile of things in a case I made and a couple of reactions. Don't put words in my mouth. Don't argue things that never happened. You've argued a number of things that never happened btw.
I have already explained why scum would go for a Zito mislynch now. This was the best opportunity they were going to get to get to make Zito the mislynch. And no, I'm not townreading him just for the case. Don't spin this into a one-issue thing when there's a number of reasons I could give for why Zito is town.
You got really bad feelings about me suddenly because I'm capable of casing you, am voting you, and scumread you. You are scum. Where is the scum motivation in me defending Zito?
You about Cece:In post 494, jjh927 wrote:I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.
To me, that looks the same. Why are you not townreading Cece for this. It's just a simple question.In post 513, jjh927 wrote:I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.
