Incrimination by Association

[Passdog]

I've been in a number of games where people are trying to determine other player's alignment from their association with other players on Day 1. So I put the following principle tofether:

• When there is a lack of factual information available, for instance on Day 1, it is NOT useful to accuse players of being scummy 'by association' with other players. Such behaviour should certainly be noted and utilised with consideration for facts as they arise, but, until such a time, it is advisable to focus on each individual's actions, isolated from each other, or risk making incorrect assertions regarding alignment.

Agree? Disagree? Anything to add?

[Turbovolver]

I agree. Like I said in one of those games, I don't have a problem with pointing out such things on Day 1 (so you don't forget about them, I guess). But you shouldn't use them to judge people's alignment. The day 1 lynch decision should be based on individual behaviour. Definitely.

[Alexander]

I completely agree. In fact, I have previously argued in favor of such approach vigorously in Mini 287, for example ... admittedly, I was the SK in that game but I'd probably make the same point if I was innocent too.

Only when the bodies start piling and the alignment of at least a couple of people is known for sure, can you analyze relationships.

[Lloyd]

Passdog,

I disagree. The reason is: What I would find useful, is probably different than what you would find useful.

---

Here's a corollary:

• If you agree with Passdog's principle, then you probably won't vig someone on Night 0

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On a less serious note...Passdog, Turbovolver, and Alexander are probably masons in this thread

[HezLucky]

I disagree.

I've caught many scum by going against your principles. [heck, I've caught ALL the scum by going against your principles on DAY ONE]

If you don't use some sort of association principle, then your day one lynch is essentially random.

Or maybe you'll get lucky with your association principle; definitely better.

[Coron]

Association is part of it, if two people are scummy and closely associated... they're even more likely to be scum.

But for the most part I agree.

[Turbovolver]

Hey what does vigging night zero have to do with making connections on day 1?

I guess you seem to be right in that I don't think I'd vig night zero (I mean I'm all for aggressive vigging but never blind... I just like to decide who's scum and take 'em out myself), but I'm not really getting the connection.


I think Coron has summed it up nicely.

[Yosarian2]

It's illogical to ignore any possible scum tell day 1, even a weak one. So, if two people appear to be linked, might as well bandwagon one of them and see what happens. Why not?

[PolarBoy]

Nothing like hard and fast rules to improve the quality of scum-hunting.

[TBuG]

I disagree and agree. Often scum can be caught by associating too closely so a technique often used is seperating eachother on Day 1. I helped lynch a godfather when I was mafia Day 1. Albeit, I forgot I was scum, but I helped nonetheless.

[rajrhcpfreak]

i disagree.

i can pick 3 people out usualy in a mini because of gut and association and im correct 66.66% of the time.

and then at the begining of you law it says, "When there is a lack of factual information available"

if there is a lack then you should go down the road of association because it sounds like there is no other information to go by.

[Mr. Flay]

Anything that gives mafia hard-coded rules to avoid improves their play at least as much as it does the town's. Hence why the scum tells were made public, to improve the quality of the game overall.

I think association is about the ONLY thing you have to go on in a D1 with Day Open, so why would you ever ignore it? Sure, it can be falsified and dodged, but that's the whole point of the game...

[mathcam]

Ditto Flay.

Cam

[SpeedyKQ]

Some people insist that interaction between 2 players is a scum tell. Others insist lack of interaction is the scum tell. I don't completely agree with either rule, but it is silly to ignore the issue. Look for suspicion anywhere you can.

[Osloboditelj]

I don't think that association alone is a scum tell. However, the type of association involved is difinitely important; if two people collaborate to railroad an innocent, it's significantly different from mere logical coordination. Also, day 1 associations become more useful when one of the associates' alignments gets revealed.

[inHimshallibe]

It's freaking Day 1. Pick someone on your bad side, and that's that. Hindsight will catch the scum later onl.

[PolarBoy]

Any way you slice it association isn't so much a scum tell as it is a group tell. With nothing else to go on they could just as easily be masons or a cult. On the other hand, there's more chance of there being a mafia group than a mason group or a cult (and virtually every game with masons or a cult has mafia as well) so it looks like a better mafia tell than it actually is.

[Glork]

It's freaking Day 1. Pick someone on your bad side, and that's that. Hindsight will catch the scum later on.

QFT.

[Infested-jerk]

Okay I know, I'm new


But there is no foolproof way, even if you're a cop, seer, or so on to know who is what (Unless yoru mafia) because the GM can always trick you.


(Ever hear of the prank game where everyone is human and the GM just acts like there are wolves?)