Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Tammy]

##vote: shadoweh

Hi bb

Also, I don't yet really understand the mechanics, but Oversoul told me to town it up, so I can get a boon. I'm town, I put my tokens to good use, vote me for boon 2015.

[Tammy]

But we also need to know signs to use our roles, right?

[Tammy]

I can't imagine scum needing to know someone's sign to kill them though.

but if the do, they probably have a way to find out people's sign. I suck at balance, but if that weren't the case shouldn't the scum team be bigger?

[Tammy]

I don't need to fish for town reads. It's my thing ^_^

I read the rules, not the pms though, so don't mind me. Not that I'd have probably caught it anyway, I rarely understand rules until they're in action.

[Tammy]

oh

bane: shadoweh

[Tammy]

Tammy. I'm going to assume you're fishing for townreads if you keep making posts giving the impression that you haven't read the rules. If you're town, go read the rules. Kthnx.

@Titus, how will scum know if we've baned Alquin unless they claim? We don't necessarily have to have anyone claim roles during minor day and we don't necessarily have to lynch the person we bane on MajD1.

Alquin's sign is in the first post. If we bane someone who has a candle sign, and they die then we basically did scum's job for them as Alquin cannot be protected.

We shiuld use bane as a verifier. If someone says they matched sign, the bane verifies.

If you're actually serious about ermigerds we should not out anyones sign because then scum will know who they can kill, then I'd suggest stopping with this line of discussion because I imagine any responses or discussion this will provoke will narrow down people's signs.

[Tammy]

Also the use bane as a verifier is dumb.

[Tammy]

Also, I'm not going to cry if we bane someone suspicious, and scum kill them for us.

[Tammy]

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Hi zar!

I just realized your team name has a flaw. While empire is a member of westeros, he hasn't actually played a game there. That should be rectified before team mafia is done with, so at least you'll have some truth in advertising.

[Tammy]

Tammy. I'm going to assume you're fishing for townreads if you keep making posts giving the impression that you haven't read the rules. If you're town, go read the rules. Kthnx.

@Titus, how will scum know if we've baned Alquin unless they claim? We don't necessarily have to have anyone claim roles during minor day and we don't necessarily have to lynch the person we bane on MajD1.

Alquin's sign is in the first post. If we bane someone who has a candle sign, and they die then we basically did scum's job for them as Alquin cannot be protected.

We shiuld use bane as a verifier. If someone says they matched sign, the bane verifies.

If you're actually serious about ermigerds we should not out anyones sign because then scum will know who they can kill, then I'd suggest stopping with this line of discussion because I imagine any responses or discussion this will provoke will narrow down people's signs.

Not sure how talking about the pros and cons narrows down people's signs...

Talking about pros and cons does not. However, that is not only what you're doing. You've brought in the Alcuin and the candle discussion to the mix.

[Tammy]

[Tammy]

town?

[Tammy]

OH

OH

OH

I thought those were sample role pms not roles we knew were in the game.

I don't think we can bane alquin. And why would we bane the town role we know of and not the scum role anyway.

[Tammy]

Never mind. I'm dumb.

I'm going to shut up and go back to working on my dissertation.

I'd appreciate it if my team would show up and keep me from looking stupider though!

[Tammy]

No wait alquin is town.

I'm confused.

[Tammy]

I'm confused what Titus is going on about and now that I see Alquin is actually a person in the game, I'm more interested in her stopping that line of discussion.

We talked about some things, but I don't understand things when just explained to me. I tend to have to see how it's working in motion to understand complicated mechanics.

Hopefully by about page 10, I'll stop bumbling about like an idiot.

[Tammy]

Oh, why didn't you include cephrir's pic, which is cute, instead of his alt's?

pedit: I like the use of the exclamation points!

[Tammy]

[Tammy]

If I didn't care way too much about what people thought of me, I'd be bumbling like an idiot too!

My understanding is that Titus is concerned about Alquin being important because he limits the number of unmakes/kill attempts the scum can make. I might be missing something, but I'm not super scared about bane possibly revealing Alquin, nor do I see any super good reason why we can't discuss it as long as Alquin doesn't stand on top of a mountain shouting out his name or something.

PEdit: That's his current avatar and I didn't know how to find the other one. Plus, inner cuteness and all that jazz.

This, which is why I am confused by Tammy and Cheetory's posts.

I have deduced the following:

1) baning gives us limited information while limiting the number of players scum have to search through thus eventually increasing KPN.

2) Two doctors reduces KPN but does not confirm which if any were blocked. This reduces KPN but info as well.

3) The game without signs is incredibly townsided, otherwise KPN being so high is off.



Given 1 and 2, two docs no baning seems to be the way to go. No information given and multiple protections in the early game are goid.

I don't know what's confusing abut me not wanting you to keep talking about Alcuin and the candle stuff.

[Tammy]

If I didn't care way too much about what people thought of me, I'd be bumbling like an idiot too!

My understanding is that Titus is concerned about Alquin being important because he limits the number of unmakes/kill attempts the scum can make. I might be missing something, but I'm not super scared about bane possibly revealing Alquin, nor do I see any super good reason why we can't discuss it as long as Alquin doesn't stand on top of a mountain shouting out his name or something.

PEdit: That's his current avatar and I didn't know how to find the other one. Plus, inner cuteness and all that jazz.

Well I mean I doubt we can bane Alcuin anyway. The discussion itself narrows down enough between role and sign, and it's baffling to me that someone arguing against baning because it outs ones sign and does scum's job for them is actively promoting a conversation that does that very thing.

It keeps autocorrecting Alcuin. I know we're not talking about the medieval English guy.

[Tammy]

Also, Alcuin's job is not to act scummy and anyone who acts scummy just to avoid a nightkill is doing it wrong. It's no different than any other pr.

Also I doubt very seriously kills are going to go by oh we think he's alcuin, let's get him. That would be pretty poor play anyway that probably wouldn't net scum very much reward. Considering we're all playing as a team, I'd imagine the threat of the team as a whole is going to play into night kill choices at a pretty decent level.

And that's the last thing I'll say about Alcuin though!

[Tammy]

And that's why I wanted titus to stop with the candle talk. Obviously every candle weren't protection immune.

[Tammy]

So, Trojan horse thinks we should either no bane (but that also means no boon), try to hit scum with bane, or have a vanilla townie volunteer to be banned so we don't accidentally bane a pr.

We're also leaning to choice two. Still waiting to hear from others.

[Tammy]

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Hi zar!

I just realized your team name has a flaw. While empire is a member of westeros, he hasn't actually played a game there. That should be rectified before team mafia is done with, so at least you'll have some truth in advertising.

Hi Tammy! I'm curious though. How come you addressed me but had nothing on my team's shared collective wisdom regarding espeonage?

I also kinda want to pick

CDB

's brain (or maybe your team's collective brain), about the things you've guys talked about. Mostly, why did you make a post saying you guys discussed theory but didn't make mention of any theory?

I'm interested in espy's response to that first.

My team mates talked about how best to use my role, and the conversation has been about that.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I figured you would ^_^

At the moment I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of the game and am submitting my dissertation tomorrow so I'm a bit distracted.

I would also like to see eespy's response or approach first. I could see him trying to get scum, but I can also see ZAR trying to get scum, so.

[Tammy]

I don't get the question or the tone.

What do you think I'm supposed to know? You like scum. Empire and Regfan like town. Why wouldn't I think you could have used a token or two to attempt to get scum. There were five tokens. Why do you think I'd know how you guys decided to work them out.

[Tammy]

I don't know how their team used tokens. I could see zar trying to get scum as he likes it. I don't get the response to that from him. I could see him saying, no we gave all the tokens to REGFAN and empire so they could get town. What doesn't make sense is the tone. The um and I should know how they would use it. It makes it weirder that he's the one who opened the door to token speculation when talking about espy.

I mean we got our token back from gamr selection so we had all five to use for side selection.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I figured you would ^_^

At the moment I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of the game and am submitting my dissertation tomorrow so I'm a bit distracted.

I would also like to see eespy's response or approach first. I could see him trying to get scum, but I can also see ZAR trying to get scum, so.

Could you see Titus trying to get scum?

Yeah, probably.

I hadn't actually thought of it but when we were doling out tokens to try to get town roles, rhinox suggested that a good number of people would probably be using tokens to try to draw scum, in part because you have a better chance at winning team mafia with scum roles.

I've thought about a couple people who might have done that but right now it's more a rolling it around and will deal with it more when I have a better grasp of the mechanics and have submitted my dissertation and scheduled the defense and then can breathe.

[Tammy]

because Empire and Regfan prefer being town over anything, whereas if you look-up my remakrs to Regfan from last team Mafia in the Scummies post-game, you'd notice I mentioned I wouldn't go after a scumslot?

Anyway, I don't think this line of conversation is going to take us anywhere.

Oh I mean I know they prefer town.

Looking up last scummies would require a bit of research time I don't have right now.

[Tammy]

Ffery - what do you think of titus though? I'm not going to do much in the way of reads or anything until tomorrow at the earliest, but I'm reminded of serum and steel and the debate day one on removing metal from people. Her approach to people with different viewpoints is rather different, which makes me have an early warm feeling for her. Though I do have moments where I wonder if the candle and Alcuin business was an attempt to get them outed. I'm probably overthinking that though.

[Tammy]

Okay so Trojan horse thinks we should just bane the scummiest player, lynch that player in major day, that way we get the boon and the bane really doesn't harm much.

[Tammy]

Heh

And hmmm idk

My sleeping pill is kicking in though, so tomorrow!

[Tammy]

I had an argument for 2 that got lost when the thread was locked that I'll have to remember when my brain isn't counting unicorns.

[Tammy]

Okay I should sleep.

[Tammy]

@CDB, I am rather interested in 129 as well. If Bane votes are meant to be who is the scummiest, why should the baned player get protection? Wouldn't it be better not to bane?

@Tammy/Fferylt, Pretty sure I have lost this argument on bane/not bane. I still think baning is a mistake but being stubborn will just mean my voice is lost in the process or unintentional fishing to those who cannot see theory as theory.

Theory talk is one thing, but when you start applying it to particulars of the game, people's responses to those particulars narrow down people's signs and who is or isn't alcuin.

Talk about the pros and cons to banking all you want, I just want you to leave alcuin and the candle talk out of it.

~~~

Also, I scheduled my defense today. Yay!

[Tammy]

Cheetory, can you please explain your current opinions on Tammy and Marquis?

Haven't really seen enough from Marquis's first four posts to form much of an opinion on him, but I don't think him 'shitposting' during earlygame D1 seems out of character for him based on my experience with him.

Was feeling a little wary of Tammy because it seemed like she could have been pretending to not understand things to fake a lack of understanding of the scum mechanics for townpoints, but her later posts have been better.

Heh.

I'm not even sure I'd have tried that approach as scum. Although maybe actually, most people know I rarely read the rules. Though I think my approach would more be akin to me walking my own self to the gallows, putting my neck in the noose, closing my eyes and awaiting the inevitable. I can fool some of the people here some of the time, but in a team atmosphere where I can't directly try to manipulate them? Might as well stick me up against faraday.

I think I like this from you though. It is kind of an easy thing to be worried about, but fake dumb tells are something I look out for too, so I can see someone being concerned about that if you're unfamiliar with me. I like that you reevaluated without really saying anything as I think pushing a fake dumb tell thing would be easy to make you look busy.

[Tammy]

Cheetory, can you please explain your current opinions on Tammy and Marquis?

Why did you specifically ask him and why me and markee?

[Tammy]

Ah, okay.

I'm not going to put any energy in actually reading people until tomorrow. I do think I'm finally grasping the mechanics, or at least fooling myself into thinking that. My team has a couple reads, but I'll start dealing with that tomorrow. I have to turn in the finalized version of my dissertation to my committee tonight, so I'm preserving brain power and more people need to check in.

Titus - I wouldn't bet that people wouldn't prefer scum. Due to the nature of scoring, being scum actually gives you a higher chance of winning team mafia, and I'm sure people figured that in in addition to some crazy people just preferring scum anyway. I put a double negative there, see why I need to preserve brain power?

Also shadoweh I gave you a hug and was rebuffed. I won't cry about it though.

Maybe I will

I'm still mapping out the choice thing, but is it two protections on the same night? I was under the impression it wasn't.

[Tammy]

It's really simple, protection doesn't work very accurately. It's better to have less effective protection that gives information then it is to have more effective protection that might not do anything at all. At least that's my opinion.

Tammy: Your start reminds me of Fantasy Camp and I'm avoiding you. Want to talk about how town is colored blue? That could be fun..

Bulbasaur: I think my reasoning is obvious. Why do you care?

Um it's nothing like fantasy camp!

Though I was about to tell you town was silver, but then just looked and you're right it's blue!

[Tammy]

Are you sure you're not avoiding me because you don't want me to see the blackness of your soul?

The fantasy camp comparison makes no sense.

[Tammy]

Also, if my opening reminded you of fantasy camp, why are you not banking me?

[Tammy]

That doesn't make any sense. Am I awkward jokey here or lasses fairie? LLD can't read me but shrug. I mean if I were awkward jokey there, in order to remind you of it here, I'd have to be awkward jokey, but you're saying I'm different but the same? And if you think I'm scummy and someone else on your team thinks I am too, why are you avoiding me and not calling me out for being the obvious scum bag I am?

Wouldn't that make more sense?

Yes, I spent town tokens for here, said so in my first post. Along with my alignment, you're welcome. Aren't you happy when I make things so easy. Now you're free to tell me why anything I've done is scummy because I'm all ears.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I know, and those people should be able to tell you I'm hilariously toen by now.

I don't know what you're referring to as tree stump, but I don't understand why if you're worried about me, even if you don't want to mostly notlynch me, you aren't yelling at me and are instead avoiding me. Id feel much better about your alignment if you did.

[Tammy]

Oh ffery, yeah that team has two people who should be able to read me correctly.

[Tammy]

Tammy have you considered that the mere mention of an unsure glance in your direction doesn't mean I want to not!lynch you immediately? There are like seven people who are going to be able to give accurate reads on you over time, one of which just became a treestump.

But this doesn't get to the heart of the issue. Why are you avoiding me if you're concerned about me. You're trying to turn it around on me, when I was wondering why you were avoiding me in the first place.

[Tammy]

Why don't you want to discuss them?

In serum and steel you had absolutley no problem talking about the mechanics of the game, which is what I presume you mean by what you don't want to talk about, because I can't imagine you not wanting to talk about why Im suspicious.

I've been town since my first post, but to be fair, what I've done right now is something I could easily do as scum, and I think you know that. But I really would like to talk about the fantasy camp comparison. Because in that game I was scum, I purposefully designed my opening in part to a joke I'd planned before I got my role pm and in part to try to get nacho to town read me. I don't recall being especially jokey in this game. Light hearted sure, but it's kinda hard to be jokey when you're confused about the setup. So was I faking being confused about the setup? Because that's an accusation I could understand, though might be a little insulted by

[Tammy]

For about five seconds. And if it were at any other time, I'd have probably considered it and taken as a challenge to try to fool the various teams even if I think I couldnt. With what's going on in my life right now, nope, wouldn't have the energy for it.

[Tammy]

Zar - are you and your team. Mates talking about this game?

[Tammy]

Zar - are you and your team. Mates talking about this game?

[Tammy]

Feel free to hurry up and make up something they said!

[Tammy]

Because you're not actually discussing the game.

Empire can kiss my ass.

[Tammy]

I mean I totally get no matter what empire is going to trash me in your pt, but I don't see how that's relevant to the game.

[Tammy]

I think it'd be a little more productive to discuss my view point, but hey that's just me.

[Tammy]

I mean I totally get no matter what empire is going to trash me in your pt, but I don't see how that's relevant to the game.

Well, could you explain your claim out of the blue? Would that be more relevant?

I'm sorry did you ask me a question? I don't remember dodging a question you asked.

I, do, remember having a conversation you skipped over to let me know that I'm getting trashed in your pt when I asked you if you were discussing the game.

[Tammy]

Also, nice deflection noted zar.

[Tammy]

Yeah I"m not fond of UT atm either.

I want to leave a strong townbloc behind when I drop dead. I'm thinking about how to go about that.

Zar who is Empire townreading?

Empire is townreading Cheetory and ActionDan by way of actually posting.

As opposed to his magic eight ball?

[Tammy]

zar

[Tammy]

bane: zar

[Tammy]

I mean I totally get no matter what empire is going to trash me in your pt, but I don't see how that's relevant to the game.

Well, could you explain your claim out of the blue? Would that be more relevant?

I'm sorry did you ask me a question? I don't remember dodging a question you asked.

I, do, remember having a conversation you skipped over to let me know that I'm getting trashed in your pt when I asked you if you were discussing the game.

But Mina really wants that explanation and it's part of her comments in the discussion we actually have that you think we don't!

WHAT EXPLANATION?

I have no idea what you're asking me to explain.

[Tammy]

Zar/shadoweh/Cdb/ut 2015

[Tammy]

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Hi zar!

I just realized your team name has a flaw. While empire is a member of westeros, he hasn't actually played a game there. That should be rectified before team mafia is done with, so at least you'll have some truth in advertising.

Hi Tammy! I'm curious though. How come you addressed me but had nothing on my team's shared collective wisdom regarding espeonage?

I also kinda want to pick

CDB

's brain (or maybe your team's collective brain), about the things you've guys talked about. Mostly, why did you make a post saying you guys discussed theory but didn't make mention of any theory?

I'm interested in espy's response to that first.

My team mates talked about how best to use my role, and the conversation has been about that.

Yu asked me what theory I discussed. What we discussed pertains to my role, I didn't say what my role is and considering EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO SOMETHING, we discussed how to use either my special role or what EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TOO.

fish more, scumbag.

[Tammy]

I mean I totally get no matter what empire is going to trash me in your pt, but I don't see how that's relevant to the game.

Ewwww...This reads like you are expecting scumreads. I am used to you obvtowning and everyone knowing it. So why would you expect scumreads or Empire's teammate to take him seriously?

You are confusing bring trash talked with being scum read.

I perfectly expect empire to trash the shit out of me even though he's town reading me.

[Tammy]

(Empire thinks reading your angry posts is funny).

Nevermind. Just saw this. Tammy being angry feels less weird now.

Yes, and titus, this is what I'm referring to.

Not only is a supposed friend trash talking me in a qt, again, but zar did this in lieu of actually talking about what they're discussing as a means of getting me upset so he could avoid the fact that he is scum and they are not actually discussing anything.

But no one will believe me about this anyway, so whatever.

[Tammy]

If they were actually discussing things, there would be an explanation about whether my anger was misplaced or correctly placed, but it was just thrown out there as a means of putting me down.

[Tammy]

I do not for one second think town empire avoids giving a read on me but gives weak town reads to shadoweh and DV. I do not think that town empire weakly town reads shadoweh and doesn't tell me where I'm going wrong in my suspicion of her.

I do not believe that in lieu of doing those things he just puts me down.

I do not think those are things that comes from a toen you guys slot.

And I don't know why it keeps autocorrecting town to toen.

[Tammy]

And just so it's clear to everyone, if empire is not town reading me he's scum reading me. He prides himself on being able to read me well and quickly. If he thought I were scum here he'd be giffy as fuck to catch me and push me. But the only question to come from that slot is a lame ass question from MINA about why I claimed...in a game where everyone has access to something.

This is not town them behavior.

[Tammy]

*giddy as fuck

[Tammy]

Zar, would it be possible to elaborate a bit on Empire's meta townread of me?

He's around now, he says that off the top of his head, you're self conscious and a lot more stiff and awkward when you're scum; basically your care a lot more about your image; when you're town you're more relaxed and don't really have a filter (he's going off the top of his head, he hasn't played with you in like a year).

Why does he have a confident read in me then if it's off the top of his head?

Because they are bullshitting a conversation they are not actually having. Well I mean they're having it now, but it's because they're pretending to discuss reads instead of actually have them.

Empire knows that I know he can read me pretty well and he'd be happy to catch me as scum. In the last westeros game, when MINA wasn't sure if I was scum she depended on empires read, who was spectating the game. Empire was my other head in fantasy camp; he has a pretty good insight into my scum game. And if you remember last year or so's yoloville he said he knew how to make me town tell if he wanted.

He'd tell me where I was going wrong on shadoweh if that slot was actually town and town reading shadoweh because he'd want a perfect town win here if possible and he wouldn't want me going off on a tangent he thought was wrong, and because he knows how I think about this game, he'd talk to me about it not just put me down.

If he were in this game, he'd probably do something close to that anyway because he'd be 1) playing to get a town read from me and 2) wouldn't want conflict. He can not do these things here because he wouldn't care because he's not the one in the direct conflict and leaving a message that's just putting me down instead of doing anything constructive he knows would bite and get me upset and then discredit me. And that slot is doing it on purpose because they're svum.

[Tammy]

bane: zar

[Tammy]

I think we are going to choose one, but I want to wait to see what rhinox thinks and he's been busy.

We have five days left. If we could hurry up and bane zar so we could choose someone to boon, that would be swell.

[Tammy]

Why would I need to make up stuff?

(Empire thinks reading your angry posts is funny).

I mean I totally get no matter what empire is going to trash me in your pt, but I don't see how that's relevant to the game.

Well, could you explain your claim out of the blue? Would that be more relevant?

Also, fferry, Empire is also townreading DV for meta and he potentially thinks shadoweh is town but isn't as confident in that read as in DV because he doesn't have that great a track-record with her.

I won't change my mind on this.

He completely skips over the content of my "angry" posts just to put me down while hes supposedly town reading shadoweh. I Get it empire thinks im shit, that's nice, it's irrelevant to the game and does not come from town. I could see the message from empire being something like "you're angry posts are funny but I think you're off base, etc.". That's not what I get, instead I just get insulted, which does not further a town win at all and is designed to purposefully hurt my feelings.

I don't understand how mean spirited is town at all. It feels more like when he and faraday trolled me and discredited me in marketplace.

The reads coming from empire are trash. He sucks at reading shadoweh, so why he's giving a town read there is beyond me. He also read DV wrong the last time he played against him, so his meta read makes no sense.

[Tammy]

Yes, I'll try to make more sense tomorrow when I'm not trying to get my dissertation submitted.

[Tammy]

Lol

[Tammy]

No wait because this is too special.

I do not believe for one second empire is using outdated meta to town read people he can't actually read, and then gets after me for referencing yoloville, which by the way is the game he misread DV in according to his meta. And the westeros game I referenced, it was the last game we played at westeros and seeing as how you modded it you should remember it's not two years old. He also correctly read me as svum in Arcadia, which is not that old and was super pleased with himself for svum reading me off my first post.

I don't believe he's scum reading me either. I think that's a bullshit read. I don't think for a second if he actually was svum reading me the only thing he'd have done was insult me. He'd be giving you ammunition to push me with, especially if I was an obvious scumbag pushing his town read.

Also, the thing about not wanting my teammates to back me up is trash, considering a) I don't have a great understanding of mechanics and anyone who knows me/has ever played with me knows it takes me a bit to get it and b) has hydra'd with me and knows that I in fact do rely on my other heads quite a bit. Oh and hey, there are more people playing this game who have hydrad with me and I will seriously bane myself if anyone can show me where I don't actually rely on my other heads when I'm in a hydra and don't understand things or have strong feelings for things.

I'm more interested in seeing how espeonage responds to that and you're ensuing conversation from it than saying yeah espeonage likes scum, and considering another team knows that I know that, it's not like I was going to hide it. Quite frankly at first I thought you were town from it then realized it was probably a conversation had ahead of time. I thought your tone was weird when you addressed me about or and my suspicion about you using a token. I also don't get the smearing accusation and think that's trash, and if you do believe that then you'd have to look in the mirror because you'd have been preemptively smearing espy.

Also considering that I said I wasn't going to deal with reads until tomorrow it shouldn't come as any surprise, and considering I don't actually do much scumhunting in the first pages of a game in the first place as I feel things out, I don't see the problem there. Nor do I see the problem with me trying to understand the mechanics of a game I'm playing in that I'm only barely understanding now. Am I supposed to stay confused the whole game? I don't get what the problem is.

I'd prefer yiu claimed I was faking not understanding the game or the informed status than whatever this is.

I don't get what type if reaction I was supposed to have to ffery's issue. Yay, I don't have to worry about you and we can work together. Booo you're going to die soon? What? As far as I can tell not one person reacted to that, including you, I don't see the issue.

[Tammy]

Hey UT - Oversoul wants me to apply pressure to you because he thinks you seem scummy, but I'm a sucker for people's RL shit bleeding into the game and being irritable, so consider this pressure:



I do prefer the UT who makes me laugh though.

Also I have other things I'm more interested in right now.

But, side note: I just submitted my dissertation, so as soon as I pick my brain up off the floor I'll catch up here!

[Tammy]

Hi espy.

I'm the queen of sass, please don't try to take my crown.

Do me a favor? Read zar and tell me what you think?

[Tammy]

Okay, I'd like to know what espeonage and mastin's teams think of marquis. (And anyone else who can read him, but those are the two teams with the most experience with him I think.)

hito - boon has the same deadline as bane, right?

[Tammy]

Hi espy.

I'm the queen of sass, please don't try to take my crown.

Do me a favor? Read zar and tell me what you think?

I have about ten minutes until I have to get ready and head in to uni, I will not have time until I get back.

dw I did see the wagon and it was on my todo list.

Also not taking your crown, but it's important to walk in an SO's shoes so that the bonds between you get tighter.

@DV, Join me on Zar. If you think Bulba's scum discrediting emotional play, then he's indirectly wanting to discredit Tammy. We all know she made an emotional plea to vote Zar based on the Empire stuff. The only reason to do that as scum is Bulba/Zar.

I don't see how that's discrediting me at all. He's agreeing with my push and calling me super town. And, sure, I can get emotional and make emotional pushes but anyone who's played with me knows that I am also very capable of making logical pushes and reads once I step back, and considering that Bulbazack has seen me do exactly that, I don't know what he thinks he would gain by discrediting me indirectly and doubt that would be his intent.

[Tammy]

"Anyway.

I'm not sure about Zar, but he seems more tentative than I recall him in our previous game.

Also, I've mostly seen Tammy get it right when she develops strong interaction-based reads on day 1.

Actually if you look at that game you'd see I'm not particularly big on day one in general.

Also, I don't know how much experience you have with Tammy overall, but I come from the same board that she started playing in, and the attitude she's giving me is the reason I actually stopped playing games that had her in them or that I could deduce she would be potentially involved in (by means of not co-modding, or the game being alted). If you need specifics into what I'm talking about, you can research really old games, like Seacore's Law and Order, which I ended up replacing out of here. There are two other games in the public Westeros board (85.5 and 86). 85.5 in particular is altless, so if that thread it's still up its not hard to follow through. When we have played together though, Tammy hasn't really been able to read me correctly. So she resorting to use Empire as proxy to try to get a read on me seems something she would do.

I have other things I want to respond to in regards to you and the things you've posted, but this feels like a huge discredit. Your entire first paragraph is criticizing my attitude and using as examples games that are over three years old as proof of my bad attitude, so I can't possibly have a point. I haven't been completely horrible at reading you, but yes, I did read you wrong in the recent unbalanced game. You haven't been particularly decent at reading me, and there was enough crap thrown at each other in those games years ago and were in large part due to the fact that I fooled you in the first game we played together and the paranoia you demonstrated after seemed completely out of the ordinary.

If I'm resorting to using Empire as a proxy to get a read on your slot, that should be a pretty big indicator for one thing. And yes, I am trying to gauge you through your team. Empire has been looking forward to team mafia; I think if you were town, there would be an indication of his excitement to get this game solved and I'm not seeing that.

Why would I need to make up stuff?

(Empire thinks reading your angry posts is funny).

This is likewise a discredit. I ask you if you are talking to your teammates, and this is your response? Your reference to my "angry" posts, which looking back I don't think are angry at all. Forceful, yes, angry no. I was trying to get at why Shadoweh was simultaneously calling me scummy and wanting to avoid me and comparing me to fantasy camp but not really. Getting a read on people I know best, am closest to, is pretty much my M.O., so the insult makes no sense, especially considering empire is supposedly town reading shadoweh.

You say that my attitude is why you stopped playing with me, and you know that's fine, we did have problems in the past but we've played games over the past couple of years and yeah we've argued or got paranoid of each other but as far as I remember it hasn't been out of control, nor was I in this game last night. Unless you just take issue with me suspecting you.

But you pull up my attitude, and if playing with me was so against what you'd want to do in life, then I'm not sure why you chose this game when it should have been a given that this is the game I'd be playing in. And if you really did think oh wouldn't want to deal with Tammy's attitude, then I really really have a hard time understanding why you'd insult me knowing that it would get under my skin and I wouldn't take too kindly to it.

But it does make sense from you as scum. As everyone, including Empire, knows that if you frustrate me and get me mad then I'll make an emotional push that some people will think won't make sense and I'll be discredited. (Considering that half of your entire team employed that method on marketplace while scum and it was quite effective, it makes perfect sense that this would be a repeat here.)

Also, there's something really big missing there. If Empire was really scum reading me, then that "anger" would be me faking anger or me being angry at being caught. The anger wouldn't be funny then; it would be alignment indicative and should have been used as a means of pushing me, but it wasn't. It wasn't put to any use or game relevance whatsoever; it was a throwaway line designed to make me upset. That's not town.

Also squared it was used in response to me questioning whether or not you guys were actually having discussions about the game, and then you deflected even further by wanting an answer for my casual claiming but without actually asking me what you wanted to know as if I'd ignored a question directed at me.

And even if you guys have realized herpaderp that was a silly question, I'd like very much for you to explain you guys' though process on asking me that.

Because you said:

My team's opinion on you is all jumbled, which is why I asked you Mina's question when you asked about our discussions (being fair, Mina suspected it because of fferry's flipped PM.

which doesn't make a whole lot of sense for two reasons:

1) This is my second post of the game:

But we also need to know signs to use our roles, right?

Which should indicate I was thinking about the mechanics insofar as they pertained to roles, which would indicate I had access to something even if you forgot that everyone did. And considering the amount of confusion I displayed over everything this game, the fact that there was one thing I didn't should be an indication it's something I was thinking about.

2) I don't understand why it would be suspicion in the context of ffery's role pm. ffery was essentially a vanilla townie, and it had been addressed already in this game by Titus that most of us had access to at least two abilities. The abilities she mentioned are the exact two abilities mentioned in ffery's role pm, so I'm not sure what ffery's role pm had anything to do with me mentioning my role.

I'd also like to know why me even mentioning having a role would be cause for concern.

Another thing I'd like to know in the midst of you explaining why your team had a "scum" read on me, you didn't indicate the very one thing you should have if you were scum reading me.

If I were scum, then I was faking not knowing that alcuin and the z guy were actual roles in the game. Me not understanding the mechanics is null; the premise remains the same, I'd still be confused and need to see how things work in motion. But, if scum I'd definitely know how the nightkills worked and I'd definitely know those two role pms weren't samples but were roles in the game. Therefore, a good portion of day one would be me being a big faking faker, but none of your reasons for me scum is anything about me doing that. So either your team believed I didn't know, which would make me town, or I'm faking, which would make me scum. But none of you said anything about that, and instead asked me really lame stuff like why did I mention my role, and why didn't I comment on espy maybe using a token to get scum.

As far as things in this game go, those two things seem really irrelevant to my alignment. I mean if my anger was funny, why was it funny being directed at someone your slot is town reading? Wouldn't that hinder a town win? Don't you guys want a town win? Like the motivation makes no sense to me at all.

And, tbh, I mean I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect me to relay Empire's (or Mina's and Regfan's) thoughts 100% perfectly when I don't have the entire context of their thought processes, so all you get is the partial message from what I understand they're saying. It basically puts me in a delivery boy spot (as it shifts me into having to question them) and doesn't let me focus into trying to gather myself to get into the game and organize my townreads, which I believe it's the thing I'm better at in day one.

This would hold a shitton more weight if you hadn't played team mafia in the last go around and wouldn't already have an expectation that this is exactly how things would go. And I'm pretty sure people's problem with you is not that you can't convey mina or empire's thought process 100% perfectly but that what you have literally makes no sense from a town perspective. Empire hasn't been following games recently so why in the great green hell is he giving meta reads that are at least a year old. And why would you get after me for using meta on him that's old when he's using that very same meta for someone else?

I do agree with ffery that regfan's read could be that wrong and come from town, but it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I literally said twice the first day of the game that I wasn't doing much in the way of reads because I had my dissertation due. Not only that but it was a Sunday. I rarely play mafia on Sundays and half your team knows I've been working on getting my dissertation defended, so even if Regfan was like "she said she's not scum hunting but she's not scum hunting because she's scum" I don't understand why the part of your team that knows I've got something going on wouldn't point out the relevant details. So I can see him being concerned, but going eh okay I'll wait to see what she does on the day she said she'd start doing stuff.

But most importantly, I can't understand why if your team is scum reading me, they didn't actually do anything or question me about anything.

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Gotta keep in character, I guess? ##

Vote: tammy

.

btw, my

circlejerk

team thinks espy is the most likely player to have waged scum tokens into this setup... regfan met him irl and apparently he couldn't stop talking about how much he loves being scum and all these evil mustache twirling plans he had in mind for future scum games, so...

Um, actually we decided to use all of our tokens on Empire and Regfan... I'm kinda surprised you wouldn't expect that from our team, it seems like something you would know?

because Empire and Regfan prefer being town over anything, whereas if you look-up my remakrs to Regfan from last team Mafia in the Scummies post-game, you'd notice I mentioned I wouldn't go after a scumslot?

Anyway, I don't think this line of conversation is going to take us anywhere.

I've been thinking about this and it bugs me too. If you guys were actually really concerned that espy used tokens to get his mustache-twirling scum role, why not start a wagon on him to gain reactions? Instead you make a pseudo-vote on me and then get after me because I didn't comment on whether or not I think he did use tokens. And then you get offended and claiming I'm smearing you when I say I could see you taking a token. Why do you think it's okay to start a conversation about someone else who likes scum taking tokens and then get offended that someone else said you might take a token for scum? But furthermore, why not start a wagon on Espy to garner reactions there? Why be concerned about my reaction or non reaction? And considering I'm far more interested in other people's reactions and am perfectly capable to reacting to stuff I think I should, thinking I'm scum for it makes no sense.

I don't get this tone. I don't get why you would assume that I would know Empire and Regfan hogged the tokens to try to get town. I know you prefer scum as much as they prefer town, so why is it unreasonable for me to suspect you would take a token to get scum, when your team suspected someone else used tokens to get scum.

Also, why are you appealing to something you said at last team mafia's game and why would you expect that I would know that? This kinda feels like caught for the wrong reasons when you could just as easily tell me what you guys did with your tokens.

[Tammy]

@Tammy, Now I know why you can never read me. Indirect assaults are MUCH better for scum. Subtly dropping emotion is bad or other associations make it much easier to believe something untrue. So he gets other people to defend Zar based on the subconscious hearing of bad emotional play while he can be bussing Zar fir cred.

It's a bit of a stretch in this instance but it's pretty much the only way I see Bulba scum atm.

If it's a bit of a stretch then why are you saying it has to exist. Bulbazack could be scum; not entirely sure what I think about his alignment right now, but I don't feel like he's discrediting me. I might get emotional but considering I also have the capability of being quite logical, it doesn't seem like it would work.

I don't think I've been THAT horrible at reading you. I also keep a lot of my actual thoughts and reads to myself so.

[Tammy]

But that reminds me Bulba - Are you not paranoid of me at all?

[Tammy]

I have a lot of large theme scumgames that are much better than that Mini Theme! IIRC last summer like 6/8 of my large themes were scum!

And I would mention the other less common side of my meta here but I actually can't remember a recent completed large towngame on this account off the top of my head! :/ For the record, since I've already made it semi-public, I was FIN3 in Hilariously Unbalanced 2 though, so that kind of counts if you can get past the whole me-trying-to-pretend-I'm-me-but-not-me thing.!

It's really weird that you guys especially Tammy aren't just ignoring me as usual and focusing on people she knows well, but I guess I should like bask in the moment or something!? IDK!

And I almost forgot about the exclamation points this post so good thing I remembered before hitting submit!

Yeah, I realized were FIN3 earlier.

Pretty sure you played FakeGod's Winter's Night game on this account and that one was a couple months ago!

I don't remember ignoring you, but if it makes you feel better the request for reads on you from people who know you came from Oversoul!

Is your team really not discussing anything?

[Tammy]

While I'm relaying opinions from the Black Goo, CES argues that we should use the Bane on a player who is hard to read (vezok is his example). This is because it's harder to judge scumminess on Day 1 before we see how any flips go and it would allow us to use investigative abilities on them - meanwhile, if scum kill them, we don't lose somebody we were quickly townreading. By avoiding a Bane on the No.1 scummiest player, too, we avoid complicating their potential lynch on Major Day 1. Again, I'm pretty much sold on his argument, especially the last part - I think Baning people who we intend to lynch immediately is a waste, though acknowledging that that could change later depending on what future Banes involve.

UnBane: Titus
Bane: vezok

I might pick somebody else later but I'm pretty sure that I don't want to Bane Titus, whom I'm reading as town.

Also reading Tammy as probably town but I don't know the dynamics between her, Zar, Empire etc. well enough to say that I scumread Zar as an extension of townreading Tammy.

Why is vezok hard to read?

Empire and I hydra as Cerulean. Mina and I hydra as Sir Waffles Wafflington. Zar, Regfan, Mina and I have played together here and at Westeros for the past 3 or so years.

The weird one is Empire though. He wouldn't care about this game as scum and therefore would give bs reads and not really be involved. As town, he'd be engaged and wanting to solve the game. I don't see any indication of that.

[Tammy]

You think Zar/Tammy is possible scum on scum? :V

Tammy

should

be the first person to tell you I'd be a fool

not

to consider it.

I do love some scum theater on occasion!

Last night while furiously trying to import images to submit my dissertation to my committee, not so much.

Man I don't think I've had fully satisfying scum theater since Espy and me in Red Wine though. :/

It's sad ffery/nacho will not be around past this day to give a fuller read on you as the game goes on.

[Tammy]

Speaking of the bulbazack/deasvail interaction does feel manipulative, but I haven't decided which one I think is the manipulator.

Likewise something with espy feels off which gives me a sad and a broken heart.

[Tammy]

I want him lynched. I'm trying to think of who to bane in the interim though.

I feel like I'm getting fully caught up, but I also don't think I really will be until tomorrow.

All I know is that we have five hours to choose bane and boon.

[Tammy]

*days

I've taken a pain pill. If I continue posting, I will be loopy.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I realized were FIN3 earlier.

During the game!? Or when I showed up in postgame!?

I was thinking I might have been making it either really obvious or too obvious to be me, but if it's the former then I guess that's a bit disheartening! I shouldn't be but yeah! I need to work more on my alting techniques!

I didn't read post game I don't think. I knew that I recognized FIN3, but it wasn't until earlier in this game I realized it, I think.

Should I bring out drunk!town Titus? No one is home and ABR wants to see it.

DOOOOO EEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTT

[Tammy]

Of all the scum games I've won, I don't know if I should particularly offended or flattered that that's the one that could cause someone paranoia.

[Tammy]

I was a replacement on day two.

[Tammy]

I'm sure I have more developed scum games in the ensuing three years, however.

[Tammy]

Tammy, have you ever even rolled scum with me as town? I know we have never been buddies. Marquis mentioning your neta reminds me I cannot remember your scum meta beyond you not obvtowning.

Nope!

[Tammy]

Of all the scum games I've won, I don't know if I should particularly offended or flattered that that's the one that could cause someone paranoia.

I didn't even read it! It's just the fact you won as scum in a Team Mafia game and it reminded me that it's not because you're horrible at it that you hate being scum! :/

Oh you should read it! I took advantage of a horribly imploding town. The circumstances of our win are actually pretty hilarious. I didn't play well; town just played really poorly.

(that was also the very first scum game I ever won!)

there's no world where you can use :/ too much.

[Tammy]

I don't think I have a representative scum game. Some of them suck less than others, but I just pretty much do whatever feels right/whatever I want to do in the moment and is geared to who is playing the game/who my scum team is.

Which is why I put tokens toward a town role here and didn't try to subvert my meta to get scum. I didn't have the energy to try to do that for 80 people; maybe I would have if it weren't for every single thing in my life being a fucked up mess at the moment and me trying to graduate. But it is and I am, so town I strove for.

I'm certainly not only focusing on Zar, though he is my biggest scum read, so I'm not sure of the point there.

[Tammy]

I think the main tangible thing that bothers me right now is that huge Zar wall she made! Like she's so intent on Zar right now with barely any outside focus and devoting so much time to it when I feel like most people here are more restrained due to the competition pressure and like I said should be considering reads more than just taking them for granted so soon, and trying to think about it from that angle it makes a bit of sense! But then I get the feeling that I'm bending my thinking to try and fit my paranoia, but then I know I should probably be using Occam's Razor, but then I think about how it's Team Mafia again and ugh!

[Tammy]

So DV, you haven't seen Tammy scum either in your games?

I saw her in TM2012 and there was one game ages ago where she was scum but I was daykilled 24 hours into the game and was too bitter to actually pay attention. Now every time I play with her she's ridiculously town and then she ends up being town! So, even though I hear rumours of her great scumgame, I have convinced myself that it's ok if I ignore these.

(In all seriousness I do try and read her but suspect that if she were scum in a game she would probably have me fooled)

<3

I don't know what that killed 24 hours into the game was though!

[Tammy]

This walk down scum lane has been super fun, but really doesn't have a bearing on this game, and I think I'm going to let this pain pill take control and pass out.

Maybe .

We'll see.

[Tammy]

I think it was the one where MattP caught you. Maybe kanye modded it?

Oh gods! That horrible summer when every single game I replaced into was scum. That was miserable.

I remember that game but almost nothing about it.

[Tammy]

In other words gamma...



Okay I'm ust going to go to bed or this is going to get worse.

[Tammy]

Going to have to ask for your patience as I sift through this thread in more detail than I have been. Contrary to (apparently) popular belief, I am not a massive neckbeard who spends all his time F5'ing games he's not even in when town.

P-edit (DV): Uhh, if you think I would deliberately walk into a scum slot, especially after not having played for like a year, then I'm going to have to ask the admins to remove the banner, sorry.

P-p-edit (Titus): At first, scum. Now after her huge meltdown, not so sure. Mina is somewhat confident (as confident as she'll ever be) that she's town and Zar seemed to think so too. Regfan is adamant she's scum, though. As you might expect, we've talked about her a lot but we have no consensus here.

I have a huge problem believing that MINA and zar are the ones reading me correctly and you are regfan are taking a hair bath.

I also don't apprixaite the meltdown discredit.

But, it's cool. We can dance. Do you like the taste of sawdust?

[Tammy]

*a shit bath

That was a weird autocorrect

[Tammy]

No I mean I'll geind him into dust.

Like there's no way any part of his team is "adamant" I'm scum. They should probably hang up their scumhunting boots and declare the rodeo over I'd that's a line they want to keep peddling.

[Tammy]

So empire are you saying in team mafia, which. You were looking forward to, you weren't actually reading your team games? If that's the case what pray tell was all the conversation about me about? Cuz that would be a neat convo.

[Tammy]

Like is it physically impossible for you not to insult and discredit me, and if you did just replace in here to do it to my face, I'm sure I can get someone else to take over for me.

[Tammy]

I'll save you som trouble and effort, I have absolutely no desire to work with you this game.

[Tammy]

I already covered the your slot. Mostly deflection and I Tammy's wall felt very similar to the way she went about attacking me in Red Wine which means that she is probably either right or scum with you.

I will not clarify the Tammy pings.

Btw I attacked you in red wine because I felt like the way you attacked me looked like distancing/a bus.

It's pretty amusing to me that you think this looks like a scum game of mine because it demonstrates yu have no idea of how I think as scum.

I'll pretend it's not on the heels of me saying I feel off about you either.

[Tammy]

I'll save you som trouble and effort, I have absolutely no desire to work with you this game.

I meant this to empire.

[Tammy]

Though I will ask you something empire. You've got confirmed town here, confirmed town of a team you know well, why aren't you trying to work with her/them? You guys have wildly different viewpoints on me, if you've actually forgotten how to read me, they have more recent games with me, have people better at reading me - though nacho I still maintain I would have fooled you in that f2f game! - and have it right with me.

Why aren't you talking to them about me?

Like it baffles my mind and you are never ever ever allowed to make that smug claim that people should hang up their shoes and go home or that DV should hang up the banner again. That is nothing you're allowed to say ever again.

[Tammy]

*something

I'm not a very big fan of my cat this morning!

[Tammy]

Ffery - what did you think of empires reads list/entrance?

[Tammy]

Ok so at the end of page 23, I feel that Tammy is getting a bit agitated where she doesn't need to be. I mainly think her arguments are barking up the wrong tree and the excepts (I have yet to follow up on reading then in context) seem to be more of deflection over anything, which seems weird and Zar appears to be arguing the tree rather than the forest which is usually a sign of scum so I'm leaning towards voting.

As a side note I want to make a quick decision as Boon is something that is in towns favour just because of majority numbers.

I am also tempted to claim my sign? purely because I see no downside for myself to do so.

@Red Wine Talk: That is the most fun game I have even played in and I was one of the first people dead. Anyone looking to learn how to do scum theater needs to read that game. I doubt there will be another example of how to both flail, and clear yourself from that.

Also Marquis <3 mighty FIN3

on to page 24.

I'd like for you to point out where I was agitated on page 23. I wasn't agitated last night, not until empire replaced in. Page 23 was pretty standard explaining my read and interacting with people.

I was agitated after being insulted the night before.

[Tammy]

Why are you trying to calm me down if you think I'm scum? Wouldn't I be faking my agitation in that case?

I have no idea what you mean by "as picked up by empire".

[Tammy]

@tammy: What do you think of shadoweh?

Heading to work. Need to think about that one.

[Tammy]

@tammy: What do you think of shadoweh?

I'm not sure. I'm not the best at reading Shadoweh, but I did find it weird she said she was ignoring me because I seemed the same as my scum game, and then when I pressed her about it couldn't actually explain it and seemed to contradict herself on it. I don't think my beginning was anything similar to my scum game so that makes me confused. But when I pressed her about it, she said I was behaving in line with my town self, but that pressing is something I could easily do and mimic as scum. So that's a bit confusing, but she sometimes is very contradictory and doesn't really explain herself very well and then gets frustrated when she's not explaining herself and people are confused, so I dunno. The point that LLD thinks I'm scummy too feels weird in the whole avoiding me thing as I do think if she was scum reading me, and her team was, then there would be some point brought up against me. I said that LLD couldn't read me and while I do think that's true I'm realizing that we've only played one game together where we were both town, I think, but she also couldn't read me in a Skype game, which I wouldn't typically think was applicable to forum games but she suspected me for a typical behavior of mine that transcends the medium.

I would have been interested if she said GreyIce found me scummy because I think he does have a better ability to read me. We haven't played a ton of games together, but were masons recently so he has a pretty good idea of how I look at things as town, and in TM2012 when he played with me for the first time I was impressed at his really accurate analysis of my personality and how I would think about scum/town. (I'm just realizing that Deltawave is on their team and he was my teammate during that game. Now that was some beautiful scum theater!)

I kinda found her jump onto and off of Zar/Empire weird. The reasoning that I'm gathering for her jump onto bulbazack doesn't make much sense. I don't know why she doesn't want to discuss the bane/no bane thing because I do think it's somewhat similar in theory as the remove metal thing from serum and steel and was kind of expecting to see her take a similar stance. And while she did go in detail on Skype because we hydrad she was the one who made the argument we shouldn't remove metal day one. So to see her not take a stance was a bit weird.

I kinda liked her let's policy lynch everyone who likes scum though. All in all I'm not sure.

Regarding me being reserved or excited. I'm very temperamental and my mood dictates my play. I was happy and relieved to draw town here, but I don't even think I was all that excited sounding the day the game started. I was rather hungover and trying to finalize my dissertation. I felt like I sounded out of it. :/

[Tammy]

vezok - you should talk to BBMolla about me if you're not sure what kind of attitudes I have as town v scum.

[Tammy]

Why are you trying to calm me down if you think I'm scum? Wouldn't I be faking my agitation in that case?

I have no idea what you mean by "as picked up by empire".

Dude, I don't know if you are scum. If you are town then there is no way I want to sever ties with you. This is going to be a long game, and we're going to need to be working together at some point over the course of this.

Well then if you are town and you'll want to work with me, can you actually interact with me and get a better read on me. Your concerns are misplaced.

[Tammy]

unbane

Need to think.

Also just realized something. The points marquis is getting for looking through old team mafia games and suddenly getting paranoid because I won as scum there is pretty much discounted by the fact that his teammate was my partner in that game.

[Tammy]

All these people townreading Tammy and DV this game makes me kind of nervous for some reason I don't really get! I mean I understand why it's like that for DV for me but I'm townreading Tammy while simultaneously feeling weird about it!

IDK! I think part of it is that I always take Tammy being town for granted especially in games where there's an element of choice but this time I keep thinking about how if there was a time to subvert her meta it'd probably be now! After ffery's comments earlier I was looking through the old Team Mafia games to see what she meant and noticed Tammy won a mini as scum for it and that shouldn't really bother me but it does! :/ Of course that's an obvious idea but the thought is everyone always sees her as being so indisputably town and loving to be town so much that it would trump that paranoia of her choosing scum, but from what I know at least it's not like she isn't a threat as scum!

Like if there were ever a time to stop just doing the same old same old, both in regards to those kinds of automatic trigger reads and potential Tammy-choosing-an-alignment, it would be this game and I guess it kind of bothers me that people are just going through the motions with that read in particular as usual! (Preview edit: I'm still getting ffery and Tammy mixed up when I type out who I'm referring to! Note to self to stop! I guess!)

I think the main tangible thing that bothers me right now is that huge Zar wall she made! Like she's so intent on Zar right now with barely any outside focus and devoting so much time to it when I feel like most people here are more restrained due to the competition pressure and like I said should be considering reads more than just taking them for granted so soon, and trying to think about it from that angle it makes a bit of sense! But then I get the feeling that I'm bending my thinking to try and fit my paranoia, but then I know I should probably be using Occam's Razor, but then I think about how it's Team Mafia again and ugh!

Oh marquis I forgot to ask. When you say you were looking though old team mafia games and learned I won a mini as scum, can you direct me to where you found that information?

[Tammy]

@Tammy/Empire, I want to solve you two and not have any more Tammy v Empire fighting. If you are both town, we cannot afford in fighting. If one or either of you is scum, we need it resolved so the gamestate does not stagnate. If you're down, I would like to do socratic method with you both.

Not sure what exactly you're getting at, and no offense but no. Empire and I will figure each other out in our own manner and time. And there are only a handful of people I trust enough to understand both me and Empire to figure out this in a way that is meaningful and I'd trust. Two of those are his teammates, and one is reading me as scum for some reason. Faraday's not playing. Nacho and ffery are playing, and they'll be who I depend on to balance out my thoughts and suspicions or lack thereof.

~~~

I'm not sure what to think about a couple of people who should be able to read me easily and see me as town apparently are not, while people I thought would suspect me or not have a read on me are not suspecting me. It feels tres weird.

I have a suspicion I'm working on, but I hope to see something tonight that will tip me one way or the other.

[Tammy]

Oh god this conversation is so weird!

Yeah, but can you please answer my question about where you found I won a scum game in TM 2012?

[Tammy]

Like you said that you went searching through old Team Mafia games, so are you saying that you went to the game itself or what?

Erm.

[Tammy]

Yeah, but marquis, answer my question?

[Tammy]

And what did you enter into the search function?

[Tammy]

Like you said that you went searching through old Team Mafia games, so are you saying that you went to the game itself or what?

Um yeah! I looked at all the old Team Mafia games trying to figure out which one you played with Fate!

I really don't know what you think you're going to find out here! :/

I didn't play with Fate?

[Tammy]

And what did you enter into the search function?

..."Team Mafia"!

If this is about how you played with an alt which is what I'm thinking it's about, there was another thread that had the ID!

Then why did you say you looked at the game itself? The game itself doesn't identify me.

What I'm concerned about is that you saw me coming under suspicion and decided to claim you did "research" to fan flames of paranoia which would have been prompted by your team since we were partnered. There is/was no meta subversion last team mafia because I was a replacement, so I couldn't choose my alignment. Also, if you really did look at last team mafia, you would have seen that I was partnered with Jason who was on your team. You could ask him how and why we won that game, but you tried to fan it like TAMMY'S A GOOD SCUM PLAYER Y'ALL when it makes no sense with how that game played out.

What I also don't understand is if you really got paranoid of me, why are you adamant about baning empire?

[Tammy]

Also, marquis is the light horse in the running but not the real dark horse in the running I referred to earlier!

[Tammy]

Are you referring to this?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21696

This has me as listed as scum but not that our team won.

[Tammy]

Oh, I didn't see the link

[Tammy]

Well I guess that thread went nowhere, but earlier it dawned on me that I was an alt in that game, so I went back and looked and my name wasn't indicated in the player list, just my alt. Which meant if you had looked at the game as part of your research you couldn't have known it was me, so the whole thing about research and finding me out felt more like something that was fabricated from your team riding on the beads of suspicion I was getting last night since Jason was my partner in that game.

But well didn't see that link, which makes more sense now.

I don't know why empire thinks that sotty and zach would KNOW this is his town game. As far as I know their interaction with empire is pretty limited. He played with Sotty as part of the Dazed and Confused hydra in Zach's micro a couple years ago, played with Sotty and Zach as part of a hydra with me in the Wire, and played with Zach in Castle Zar - but Zach was a replacement in that game. I'm pretty sure that's all the game experience he has with them, so that statement reads off.

I would like to hear that they're looking at the game in some capacity. In the Wire when I was arguing with Sotty about Jason's alignment and was scum reading him, I referenced our Team Mafia game where we were partners for why I felt able to read Jason at least a little, and she said that she didn't read that game because Jason was scum, so some involvement would be great!

[Tammy]

What I also don't understand is if you really got paranoid of me, why are you adamant about baning empire?

As for this I feel like everyone else is assuming you guys are town versus scum!? I'm not sure but this time around I really don't like the certainty there of "one ~or~ the other" and it's like I keep thinking you guys could both be scum because I don't like Empire but then I also think your Zar focus was also kind of overdone!

I'm not a fan of the either/or thing either.

I don't feel like it was over done at all. Every point I made was valid; whether or not it correctly points to scum is something I'll figure out eventually.

[Tammy]

I don't have all your games memorized!

Regarding Regfan's points:

1) Yes, I dislike day one, but I do things at my own pace and often feel things out in the first pages of the game and don't really do anything unless my interest gets sparked/I see something I want to push. I wasn't interested in dealing with reads that day and said so. I could have very very easily gone v/la at the start of the game or posted and said I'd be back on Tuesday because I had to turn my dissertation in. Like I had to submit my dissertation to the school for manuscript clearance on Monday, then add in the stuff for my committee so I can defend and graduate. It was important to me though to try to figure out the mechanics of the game because I literally don't until I see it in action. But, I literally said more than once I wasn't dealing with reads until I finished what I had to get done. Trying to understand the mechanics at that point was more important to me especially considering I tend to roll around my reads for a bit anyway.

2) I have no idea why me thinking that someone who likes scum could have put tokens on scum is discrediting them.

3) I have no idea what reaction I was supposed to have or why it makes me scum that I didn't react. If you look in the thread, I was online and posting when Nacho made his accidental post. I responded to that. I tried to make a post about the choices when the thread was locked. I knew exactly why the thread was locked and had already run through the possibilities of what hito would choose to do with that. I was thinking either modkill or make her an IC, so when the thread opened it was already along the lines of what I expected to happen. My private reaction was that it sucked since she'd dies soon but at least it wasn't a modkill and selfishly that I wouldn't be paranoid of her and maybe we'd be able to work together like we've been trying to figure out how to do for the past few games. (Side note: Oversoul told me I'd need to pay special attention to Nacho because he was probably scum for knowing ffery was town :p)

Pedit: titus - I'm still concerned about Empire, but I'm not 100% like I was before. Also, my marquis suspicion earlier, which was based on something wrong, made me feel like he was scum and backing my push. I also worried about Shadoweh's jump on and then off of Zar/Empire, so. Also, there's something else I'm toying with but that will wait for a minute.

[Tammy]

Shadoweh - I'm not entirely sure right this minute. But I'm hoping my dark horse will show up and give me something to go on tonight!

[Tammy]

Why wouldn't my reaction be kind of a speechless, hrm, what reaction that would be encapsulated in an emoticon.

I don't know why I'd be "super upset" over something that was clearly a mistake.

Oh, and I forgot to respond but concerning the team consensus on banning. What I relayed were Trojan Horse's thoughts on the bane thing which he had considered and reconsidered. Neither of my other teammates were here that day. As far as Sunday was concerned, I was considering the bane wagon an rvs wagon. Quite frankly, I'm still considering what I think is best for banning right now.

[Tammy]

What's hilarious is the person I was "supposed" to deliver some great reaction to isn't concerned at all. That probably means something. Not sure yet, but I'm sure something! Might mean they understand me better; that's just a guess though.

[Tammy]

Conftown doesn't mean confright. Sure FFery has an inherent credibility bonus in that she didn't find the reaction that big a deal, but that's because she's known town. Empire isn't. By looking at his arguments, I can understand him and Ffery can tell me if it's ridiculous. No point in cutting off investigation because Ffery didn't comment. No one comments on every post.

I like him walking through the thought process step by step. If you are town, there will be a fallacy somewhere.

Um there's apparently crossed signals here.

I don't need to determine which one of them are right based on their alignment. That has no bearing to me. I know my reaction was exactly me.

There was no cutting off investigation. The people I was "supposed" to react to DIDNT find it cause for concern or they wouldn't be arguing for me town as strongly as they are. They understand me better.

[Tammy]

And furthermore it's my reaction being discussed. I have ever single right to discuss people's views in my reaction.

[Tammy]

And furthermore it's my reaction being discussed. I have ever single right to discuss people's views in my reaction.

Right but what does belitting Empire get you other than shutting off conversation? You know you're town so this seems ridiculous to you. It's not to me. I'm pretty sure you're town, so I want to have Empire flesh out his thoughts to proceed on investigating him as well as you.

And how am I belttleing empire again?

[Tammy]

So I just picked up the context of this page.

I didn't feel anything wrong with that smiley either and if I was around I prob would've said "lol nacho go back to your pt" if I even realized that nacho was on fery ' s team. (My first thought upon thread locking was "huh what happened?")

Thank you. Because this is way closer to what I thought and I can't imagine why anyone would think I'd be super upset.

[Tammy]

And furthermore it's my reaction being discussed. I have ever single right to discuss people's views in my reaction.

Right but what does belitting Empire get you other than shutting off conversation? You know you're town so this seems ridiculous to you. It's not to me. I'm pretty sure you're town, so I want to have Empire flesh out his thoughts to proceed on investigating him as well as you.

And how am I belttleing empire again?

By calling his thoughts ridiculous and using hilarious in the way you did. It screams "Don't give this any time. Don't bother." I don't like that when it's done to me when I'm in Empire's place and that happens a lot.

Someone is telling me how I'm supposed to react when it's not a way I can even imagine me reacting.

It is hilarious that the people I'm supposed to be responding to didn't find concern.

They understand me better and don't have weird expectations for reactions I'm supposed to have I cant imagine me actually having. I don't know how that's hard to understand.

Don't tell people how they're supposed to react when you clearly don't understand how they would react and maybe you won't have to worry.

Is this that subtle discrediting thing you were pointing out that you do that I don't see usually? Because this feels like a really weird reaction to someone you're supposedly town reading.

[Tammy]

Basically it's not fair to me anyway.

It's essentially "I had x reaction, you didn't have my same reaction therefore you're scum", but I can't imagine why I would even have x reaction in the first place.

[Tammy]

I wasn't referring to you saying how I should react. I was referring to empire saying how I should react.

I'm exhausted and going to sleep.

Cross your fingers my cat doesn't wake me up at 4:30 again!

Pedit : shadoweh <3

[Tammy]

I saw bulbazack online and hoped he'd post :/

I'm not opposed to banking him though.

Now sleep for realz

[Tammy]

bane bulbazack

Now sleep.

That feels wrong now that I post it :/

Maybe it's because he called me town? I'm a sucker for people who call me town. I'm loopy again due to pain pill, don't mind me.

[Tammy]

unbane

I shouldn't make drugged choices.

[Tammy]

bane bulbazack

Okay sleep!

[Tammy]

A lot of the recent discussion on Tammy truly bores me to death. This is not a character analysis of Tammy. We should stop posting things to that effect. Thanks in advance.

I agree!

Thanks for not saying I'm boring; I'd hate to be thought of as boring :/

[Tammy]

Oh it's all moot now but I just thought of a reason for choosing two. Also whoever gets informed of being protected probably shouldn't out it unless it becomes necessary

[Tammy]

Bulbazack responding to 927

On phone can't cut down.

Regarding your town read on me: that makes sense

Shadowehs policy lynch thing: it made me laugh and it sounds like something shadoweh would think of

[Tammy]

Why would I be a bad pick even if you were town reading.

And why would the town need to recover from correctly town reading me?

Don't understand you.

[Tammy]

There is, actually. For example, the part where Espeonage claimed VT, presumably because he thought he had too much of a chance of being nightkilled. I would say your post on it increased my townread of you but the extended family of We Need a Better Name was already hardtown reading you so. <_<

Espeonage would never consider himself a high nightkill target.

[Tammy]

Re: 841, Sotty hasn't had time to read much less understand anything yet so Tammy will have to wait until the weekend if at all! Also she says Tammy's probably scum so don't count on it!

How could she think I'm scum if she hasn't had the time to read?

Also, way way more interested in what zach would say about me.

[Tammy]

fery is a VT so there's nothing she can do by detecting sign. Tammy is my next-in-line townread.

I don't think I can be given a boon. and I'm sure I can't use one. I'm essentially a treestump.

I'm not liking Espe much at all.

Anything I can do to help?

Did you answer my question earlier? I looked back and it looks like you ignored it. I'll post it again for you when I'm done catching up cuz style.

[Tammy]

Tammy Re: #851:

Unfortunately, Regfan told me work was miserable for him last night and that he couldn't focus on my game so you're not getting anything from him yet. I'll take the wheel and try to respond with my own points.

2) I think Regfan and I are using the word discredit differently in this game. When I say discredit, I mean putting down/belittling the credibility of the other slot via insults/calling them bad or crazy/etc. The reason that point resonated with me is that I felt that potential scum would try and cast suspicion on Zar and try to "discredit" him because he's tough to read (especially on Day 1) and our team owns. I also felt like you would know our team would try and pool all of our tokens to Regfan/me so the idea that Zar would take even one was weird. I'm willing to chalk that up to simple paranoia though or you trying to go through your scumhunting methodology.

3) What happened with the Nacho thing, at least on my end, was literal sheer panic. That team is strong and I love playing with (most of) them so when I saw Nacho's post, I literally freaked the fuck out because I was certain we were going to lose that slot. I didn't consider some sort of alternative where ffery's slot got to stay in the game, so it wasn't just a simple mistake to me but a potential game changer. And we were surprised when you seemed to non-chalant about it.

Continuing with the ketchup.

2). I don't think it's fair to get after me for not knowing how you guys would use tokens. Yes, yu guys like town, but he likes scum. Why do you think I would assume you guys wouldn't distribute them fairly?

And why is it me belittling zar by saying thT I could see him taking a token when in Zara very first post he was talking about you guys' theory on espy putting tokens on scum? Why's am I belittling/discrediting/smearing for
Voicing my thoughts about Zara potential to get a scum token when it's purely innocent scum hunting for you to voice The same exact thing?

3). i just really don't get how any od this makes me scum. i don't get why I was supposed to have a reaction I can't imagine me having. Nacho made an honest mistake, which he probably kicked himself for when he realized it. You're acting like I was supposed to yell at him for making a mistake in a game.

I just feel like these points against me are fluffy and not alignment indicative at all and ignore what I actually put into the thread.

[Tammy]

Tammy and/or DV, do you think this CDB sounds like CDB in The Wire?

I have no idea what you're asking me. All I rmember with regards to Cdb that game was that I was convinced he was scum day one, he made me laugh by saying he was British when someone asked him why he seemed muted or something, we almost lynhced him but he self metad and it sounded really I then town read him and then he got mislynched anyway. I could be confusing him with the minilibrarian though.

[Tammy]

Why would I be a bad pick even if you were town reading.

And why would the town need to recover from correctly town reading me?

Don't understand you.

ESPEONAGE

[Tammy]

also

I think we might want to have 2-3 people we think are scummy say that they're detecting tonight to try to find Viktor- since traces always come up null for him we can start clearing people of being Viktor on a successful trace - I'm a bit wary of saying that we should immediately lynch someone tomorrow if they come up with a couple of trace fails in case scum have something that would make traces fail on other people but we can at least start clearing people of being Viktor in case he/she's wound up as one of the stronger players on their team and doesn't get lynched for a while.

Not only that but trace itself is built in with its own limitations, though a successful trace would negate victor, but not mafia.

[Tammy]

I have a feeling I might need to actually read the thread.

Why are you calling me scum and saying I'm not obvtowning in my own special way if you haven't read the thread?

[Tammy]

I was being sarcastic in order to mask my extreme irritation with him claiming.

Hey, who wants to talk about what we're doing with our two lynches tomorrow while Ffery and Friends ponder our Boonage? I'm guessing there's some popularity nudges in Gamma's direction? TBD hasn't conferred with me yet since Empire started posting. If I were to guess they will say something like 'he's still scum lynch the scumfuck trolololol'. I personally would love to wagon CBD and already have my vote itching to stuff in his stupid pokebeak. Tammy, who else besides Empire do you think should go? I think you're getting into semantics with him, though him refusing to admit you're town at this point is weird to me. Stubbornness I guess.

I don't know. I'm not a big fan of tth, but I also don't know what I think about ut yet or Cdb. I had both of them as suspicious earlier. I thought bulba's strenght of a town read on me was odd because after capcom he said he'd be paranoid of me, but I can buy his reason for townreading me, though it does feel weird that people who should recognize that stuff aren't, still think the interaction with DV felt like at least one was being manipulative. Espy doesn't feel right, but that's in part that I hate when people say they've forgotten the game and the tone of his approach doesn't feel quite right. Still a bit suspicious of marquis but that could be lingering stuff from yesterday.

[Tammy]

I don't know what to think of gamma, but I don't think empires points against him are very strong at all. I have a team thought on him that I holding onto pending more inout though.

[Tammy]

Why would I be a bad pick even if you were town reading.

And why would the town need to recover from correctly town reading me?

Don't understand you.

ESPEONAGE

If you are scum you are the kind of player that an run a misplaced obvtown to the game, not everyone has that ability.

I'm feeling pretty shitty right now, so compliments will get you everywhere!!!

[Tammy]

I have a feeling I might need to actually read the thread.

Why are you calling me scum and saying I'm not obvtowning in my own special way if you haven't read the thread?

Because I have one of the strongest guts on site so I trust it and pretty much all of what I have read was You v Zar/Empire.

Will you actually read my posts? It's literally fucking with my head that the people who i think should recognize me as town aren't and people I wouldn't expect to are.

[Tammy]

Titus is starting to worry about me. Maybe all is coming right in the world???

[Tammy]

Erm.

You're starting to worry about me.

You're not someone I would expect to recognize me as town, so the fact that you did while the people who should be reading me as town didn't/aren't has been really weird feeling, but if you're stsrting to worry about me maybe the planets are moving into alignment?

Oh a remark I meant to respond to last night concerning your concern about me second guessing myself with empire. Empire and I are friends, neither one of us would want to mislynch the other if we are town, not that I'd want to mislynch anyone, but it's especially stronger with actual not only mafia friends.

[Tammy]

I can't magically make myself happy.

No, titus that wasn't my implication. From our past experience I would nt expect you to read me correctly. You have been. People that I would expect to read me correctly haven't. It's felt topsyturvey.

[Tammy]

Thank you, yu can't. This one just needs to ride itself out and bowl me under.

I'm still easily read if you read my posts though!

[Tammy]

I look around at the teams and I think I might survive until day 4 actually.

[Tammy]

I like cdb's latest post. I've had done wine and I don't think that why though.

Cdb - you said that Patrick had looked at some but what about ces? Also did you use tokens to get town?

[Tammy]

Hey, Tammy, whenever you get see this or have time, I'm talking with Regfan right now and he asked me to ask you for your current reads with reasoning.

Yeah, I was waiting for this post. I posted my thoughts last night.

I'm not going to do this.

I'll play my own way and do things in my own time. Both of yiu can stuff it if you don't like it.

[Tammy]

As an addendum to the above. I know exactly why he's asking, and I'm not going to alter the way I olay the game in order to beg him to give me a town read when the damn blinking town lights are blinding my ISO. I will not put up with that especially when the reasons you guys came up with for me scum are so mind numbingly superficial and not alignment indicative I'm just shaking my head that you're not actually reading my posts, and this current request is just an annoyance.

[Tammy]

I'm liking shadoweh more for town now. Shadoweh - what do you think of Dan?

[Tammy]

Most of my team is scum reading vezok and is concerned about giving him the boon. Well Oversoul says he used to be decent at reading him so will look over him tomorrow.

[Tammy]

VOTE: tth

[Tammy]

Going to say this now before someone claims the trace on me.

I detected last night, correctly guessed and therefore got a positive effect. I don't get told what the effect which is annoying. But I figure it should clarify any issues someone that traced me might have.

It means you correctly guessed that persons sign and you doing that has no effect on whether or not you were traced.

If I'm understanding it right.

~~~

I was not detected last night.

[Tammy]

Misread the role pm, never mind

>_>

[Tammy]

Okay espionage might be town.

[Tammy]

It's reminiscent f cap ok when he was essentially a tv but the wording suggests something else and kinda ran threads there

[Tammy]

Something I wanted to respond to but the thread got locked:

Empire, curious if/how your reads have evolved.

Aside from second guessing the initial scumreads in my big catch-up (including CDB, whom I actually liked his response to my case), not at all. Regfan and I are still discussing our reads and we're disagreeing about some of them a lot more than I am used to so that's undermining my already low confidence. I'm hoping I can just start at square one here and repair my ability to actually read mafia games.

How is the convo concerning me going?

[Tammy]

My sleeping pill makese dozy

He picks p on stray threads and will follow it until bids gorge ft

[Tammy]

Lim kinda interested in people clamming their detects and traces. We my hot catch someone in a lie and we can hold them accountability

We who reached could out are chih

My sleeping kill just kicked in and I literally happen go

[Tammy]

Lim kinda interested in people clamming their detects and traces. We my hot catch someone in a lie and we can hold them accountability

We who reached could out are chih

My sleeping kill just kicked in and I literally happen go

No.

Is anyone else concerned that the wagon on TTH took off so fast?

@Tammy: Also, Mollie just told me you're scum. What do you have to say to that?

Vote Gammagooey

I have no idea why she would say that, but it fits with the topsyturvey theme that's going on thus far.

I think there's enough in the thread not to get weird on me on, so this feels like a reaction test and I'm just going to *shrug*.

[Tammy]

vote tth

why did you detect dv?

Well and this is why I'm voting tth, but Oversoul wanted me to keep quiet about who she detected until later.

[Tammy]

@Bulba, I'd like to pick your brain on some of the places where we disagree on reads. If you could take for instance Vezok and state a simple case about why you're scumreading him and I'll state a simple case on why I'm townreading him and we can see if we can figure that out or not. You're my biggest townread in the game at the moment, and I don't like how your scumread by a lot of players. I also don't get it.

I'm reevaluating Vezok at the moment. I've asked Mollie to look over his ISO and let me know what she thinks, but her statement that Tammy is scum is making me consider that I've been off not only there, but also on Empire, which would put Vezok square in "most likely town". I may have just had a bad knee jerk reaction to him. I still hate the last post of his from the minor day, though.

P-edit: Why is your approval for TTH essentially Aronis's reason word for word?

Um that was serious?

[Tammy]

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

[Tammy]

Cdb - regarding 1399 and the zar switch. That would have made a whole lot of sense 3 years ago, since then we've been rather amicable in games and out. Off the top of my head, he's played faradays adwd and wire game with me, and most recently MASTIN'S unbalanced game with me. He's also played/modded several games with me at westeros, so that read kinda weird to me. It also comes in response to my reaction to him clearly insulting me. And yeah it does feel weird that empire didn't bother apologizing for insulting me but instead turned it around on me that my reaction pissed his team off.

[Tammy]

mod - I'll be v/la until April 20th.

I will be able to post, but it will probably be kinda spotty. I'm defending my dissertation next week then submitting my manuscript of all goes well. Cross your fingers for me!

[Tammy]

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

And to spell this out a bit more clearly, you are asking someone of unknown alignment when we have confirmed town who has been my scum partner, seen me as scum while she's town - in one of my better recent scum games - and modded me as scum, played more and more recent games with me who also has a back up in nacho who can also read me quite well. ( I can fool nacho sometimes for a little while but I have to tailer my game specifically to him in order to do that)

It's weirding me out that the people who should be able to read me by now ARENT and are avoiding ffery and their team's read on me like the plague. Shouldn't there be some conversation there? Find out why you're wrong or get her to see where they're wrong? I mean if these are actual real concerns you people are having. If not carry on with your "paranoia".

[Tammy]

That's nice, I'm not.

Well when you are flat out fucking wrong, you should.

[Tammy]

People who cannot read me on tone clearly shouldn't try.

[Tammy]

eerious question is serious espeonage. Have you bothered reading my posts yet?

[Tammy]

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

See Tammy, the thing is that mollie has played with scum you very recently, I have a rapport with mollie as of recent and I don't have a good rapport with the confirmed town.

Now with that out of the way.

I'm getting more and more happy in my read that you're scum. Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh. Your tone here doesn't read to me like the frustrated got irl stuff tone as far as I can tell, which is about the only explanation I have for the amount of scumminess I am feeling from your posts. And even if that is the reasoning for your tone it still doesn't mean you're town, it takes it to null, at most. I don't have the most experience with you but I'm going off what I do have. And your responses to people here for the most part aren't looking town.

I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Vote: Tammy

gots a preedit come up

This reads like complete bullshit btw.

I'm actually not frustrated with real life ATM. Bit stressed over my defense but that's it.

Why can't I be bussing tth?

You're wrong, you can't read my tone, my responses are town because I'm town.

[Tammy]

Nope. Not all of them.

I am going to ask though. What is the relevancy of my having read all of the posts for the purposes of getting a read when I have sufficient information from what I have read? It has never been an issue before and it's been my MO for catching scum sometimes int he past with a decent success rate.

I know silly me why would I possibly want someone who is voting me and calling me scum to actually read my posts.

You don't have sufficient information, it's not enough, I don't care if it's been an issue before, you're not catching scum because you're voting town and calling me scum when I'm really really not.

And don't overblow the "never been an issue before" when we haven't played *that* many games together.

And did yiu literally say that you'd rather talk to mollie about a read on me because of rapport when she's of unknown alignment, reading me wrong, instead of confirmed town who know me a hell of a lot better? Am I misinterpreting that? Because to me it reads like you just wanting to have someone confirm your bad read, that you made all on your own!, than actially figure out my alignment.

[Tammy]

Anyway, I think I'm prob gonna be useless until some ppl dies out, or at least for few weeks. I'm looking to see if one of my teammates can switch with me though.

Bring ika maybe? But Day 1 is always the hardest. No real evidence to go on. Unless a wagon hits scum day 1, the wagon is more useful for VCA than anything else.

FTR, GiF is my second strongest townread because ika.

Don't you and ika constantly read each other wrong, tunnel and fight?

[Tammy]

Couple quick things while I'm awake for no reason....thanks waffles.

Shadoweh. - I was thinking about the espeonage thing last night on the way home, and I'm not completely sure. I do think he overexplain ee his scum read on me though, and that's problematic. I'm inclined to think that if he were scum reading me, he'd just do it without making those awkward kinda reasons why. I also think he'd be less inclined to needle me and hyper focus on just me constantly not wanting to be on a wagon I'm on or not wanting me booked.

Ffery - the suggestion concerns me insofar as I'm wondering what it means, if anything, for their respective alignments.

Bulba - that's horseshit. My reactions are fine, they're town because I'm town. I find it really really suspicious that after spending all of yesterday calling me town, which I thought was off mind you!, you're using someone who can't read me all that well to turn your read on me around. It's too convenient. Not to mention the shit as fuck reason you gave for why you're trusting someone who doesn't actually have that much experience with me over someone who does. All of mollies shit was shit too. It's kinda funny because in all that oh well I trust mollie because she's hydrad with you, which she on,y has in a scum hydra once, so she knows you better, you guys keep just mentioning ffery - and forgetting the fact that we may not have hydrad but there's more recent experience there - and I don't know where you're getting the mollie knows me better, I don't feel like she does. Also in that oh I'm going to trust mollie cuz hydra and faulty "knows me better" how come both of you are ignoring nachos read, who actually does know me better, has played more with me, has hydrad several times with me including one right now?

I'm not relying on gestalt's read on me to explain why I'm town. I don't need to do that, and if I did need them to do that I'm sure they would. My ISO stands for itself. They are there as a confirmed fucking town resource, a resource that knows me better than anyone here, knows how I'm thinking and approaching games in a more recent manner than anyone else. It unnerves me that espeonage is ignoring them in order to get feedback from what would be to a town him an unknown source. IT looks like he's doing that in order to back up his reasons for scum reading me than actually trying to figure out my alignment. Because if he really wanted to figure out my alignment and work with me if I were town like he claimed in minor day, the logical thing to do would actually oh say I don't know talk to the slot that actually knows me better and is confirmed fucking town. That he's ignoring that is fucked up.

My main problem with this whole thing is not me ruling on someone's town read, but that you people are avoiding them like the plague. Not one person who suspects me, and who should know better, has engaged them on that read, and I find that hella suspicious.

And empire get your ass in here and do something and the above goes for you too. I know your motto as scum is only post what you have to to not get lynched but come the fuck on. Yes, you had a pretty reads list, you can do that as scum. You've had superficial decent responses to people's suspicion of you but it felt mechanical like you were saying it because you had to say it. But you've actually shown absolutely no interest in actually trying to figure me out beyond that stupid ass regfan wants your current reads and reasons which he can still shove. Your recent oh gosh I'm so bad at this I don't know what to do reads really fake and doesn't jive with your oh the scum teams a quaking entrance. I don't believe for one second your total content from a town you so far today is I dunno regfan and I are disagreeing I'm gonna go hide in a corner. So come out here and do something.

I didn't read anything that didn't have to do with me because 3:30am selfabsorption. I'm gonna try to go back to sleep now.

Oh wait vezok - Oversoul wanted me to ask you why you traced tth. He wants to see if it's in line with why we did I think.

Okay sleep now, hopefully.

[Tammy]

Also them fighting tends to have a cluttering effect, which is not beneficial.

[Tammy]

Oh also, I did not threaten to replace out of unbalanced because I was being scum read. The on,y time I said I'd replace out was when I tried to reach out to mollie day one and Try to get a read on her. She ignored my questions, and ika said she didn't want to talk to me. That felt all kinds of weird and hostile. I didn't understand where it was coming from and thought it was because she didn't want me in the game. Apparently though it was due to some day three rule she was following with me and I misunderstood.

And no she's completely wrong about experience levels.

[Tammy]

But you were in that game.

[Tammy]

And because this is bugging me and apparently I'm not going to go back to sleep:

Mollies experience with me over the past year: the reckoning (we fought the entire game), quickness (found each other as town quickly, I died night one. I was alive for three real life days), capcom (we were a scum hydra), unbalanced (town/town, had our ups and downs suspicion wise but ultimately found each other as town.)

Ffery's: two newbie games she modded where I was scum, tales of vesperia (town/town fought day one realized we were town by end of day), board game (town/town suspected each other until my final day in game), tales of you (town/town my strongest town read, she had lingering paranoia), final fantasy x (town/town I was the paranoid one), serum and steel (town/town initial paranoia on both sides didn't last long), fantasy camp (me scum her nacho town, this was a misread due to me specifically tailoring my game to get a town read from nacho), Arcadia (scum partners), mafia on the air (masons), and two others. I feel like I'm forgetting one but maybe not. What has been the trend is that both of us learned how to read each other, now we're trying to figure out how to translate that into working together for town wins.

So sisters we may be, more experienced we are not.

And that's only considering one of the heads of that teams experience with me.

[Tammy]

I'm going to try to get caught up tonight, but I'm stupid tired and doing several things right now, so I'll do as much as I can tonight and try to finish tomorrow night when I get home - though I can't promise sobriety or coherency in that case!

Bulba - I'm not really sure how to respond. If I thought it was a reaction test in the first place, I didn't think that mollie was actually scum reading me. I do like mollie a lot, but just because I didn't mention that I thought ffery could read me when we were chatting doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I probably didn't mention that Faraday can read me either, and he's the person who can read me better than anyone else. And you did say/imply you were changing your read based on mollie when you said:

I've asked Mollie to look over his ISO and let me know what she thinks, but her statement that Tammy is scum is making me consider that I've been off not only there, but also on Empire, which would put Vezok square in "most likely town". I may have just had a bad knee jerk reaction to him. I still hate the last post of his from the minor day, though.

That's what made it feel convenient.

I'm not exactly sure what to make of the whole interaction though. I'll have to sit on it, and think when I'm a bit more mentally clear. Why the hell am I so damn tired?

Also I did read the rules; what I didn't read were the role pms which I thought were sample role pms not actual roles in the game. But I'm just as likely to not read the actual rules to a game regardless of my alignment.

[Tammy]

Because it was part of the discussion that Bulbazack was having over why mollie thought ffery was town reading me, but it was a misinterpretation of what happened. I did read the rules, just not the role pms. Bulbazack said that the thought is that I would be more careful as scum to read the rules when I might not as town. I'm just as likely not to read the rules as either alignment though.

[Tammy]

It's something that is very well known about me and something I already discussed at the beginning of the game.

I do read scum qt's though and talk about the game with my partners. I'd have known about the role pms due to that.

But I did actually read the rules this time. I just didn't read the role pms because I thought they were sample role pms and I didn't need to know the town win condition, so it was of no use to me.