Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[Apogee]

Hi! I'm Apogee, and this is my first game of online mafia. In person, I like to play town cop or neutrals the most. Since I've only played in person, I figure I have a bunch to learn regarding online scumreading, which I figure is pretty different than in-person where you can analyze body language more.

VOTE: Maduisha for being first poster with no votes

Other question: in-person, we always played night one before day one. Whats the rationale for doing it d1 first? Just seems like there is awfully little to go off of. Is it for balance? Fun (it does suck to be nked before you have a chance to talk)? The chance to figure out some brilliant deduction?

[Apogee]

Hey Apogee

, I think it was mainly because most people preferred a day start.
You can take a look at the threads here: Link 1 Link 2
Yeah Forum mafia is pretty difference. The other major difference with IRL is that you can take time to craft your post, thus, the things you look for in a scum is really different from irl.

Spoiler: Apogee post 17

VOTE: Maduisha for being first poster with no votes

This is false by the way. Did you read through the thread?

Thanks for the links. I have read through the thread, and unless I'm seriously missing something I don't see what is false.

Unless your implying the moderator should be my vote ...

[Apogee]

Spoiler: Apogee post 19

Thanks for the links. I have read through the thread, and unless I'm seriously missing something I don't see what is false.

Unless your implying the moderator should be my vote ...

VOTE: Enomis

This ^^^

Also, what did you think about the scum slip?

Oh, I think I was unclear then. I meant the first player to post who had no votes on them.
As for the scumslip, I feel I lack enough info.

Are you the best player in the game? If so, compelling argument.

[Apogee]

Oh, I think I was unclear then. I meant the first player to post who had no votes on them.
As for the scumslip, I feel I lack enough info.

Are you the best player in the game? If so, compelling argument.

Oh, i misunderstood.

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I don't think I am the best player in the game. I think I am quite average in fact. Why do you ask?

Seems I'd initially misunderstood your line of logic. I thought your argument was (more jokingly) based in you claiming to be the best player, meaning that Clemency's claim of the best player being "on your side" was truly referring to you being on the town's side, as the best player. He could only know you are townie as a mafia, leading to the slip.

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I re-read the "slip" and now get what you were actually arguing. Could truly be a slip, but I personally figured the "your side" was more of a presumption of most of us being townies, and his indirect reference to you being a townie is more of the same. Also, a wolf would probably be more careful with the suggestion someone is a townie? Maybe?

[Apogee]

I've been reading back through the thread, and although I don't feel I have solid reads a few things stood out.

I just keep thinking about the pretty quick 3 person wagon on Enomis that then Clemency withdrew from. Clemency's withdrawal could be a scum move to not be seen as wagoning too hard too early? But I'm not sure it really makes more sense for him to withdraw as a maf than as a town who just didn't want a big push yet. Feel like I still need to see more to make a firm guess on the individual players involved, but either way something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird.

Obviously want to see the other 2 players/their replacements. Although it could be a time zone or schedule thing I would like to hear more from Maduisha, who contributed very quickly to that above wagon, answered one question, and hasn't posted since. Again, I don't have scumreads on anyone but think there is something to this situation.

I'll probably not be on much longer tonight but will take another read tomorrow morning.

[Apogee]

Spoiler: Enomis Post 65

Spoiler: Apogee post 64

I've been reading back through the thread, and although I don't feel I have solid reads a few things stood out.

I just keep thinking about the pretty quick 3 person wagon on Enomis that then Clemency withdrew from. Clemency's withdrawal could be a scum move to not be seen as wagoning too hard too early? But I'm not sure it really makes more sense for him to withdraw as a maf than as a town who just didn't want a big push yet. Feel like I still need to see more to make a firm guess on the individual players involved, but either way something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird.

Obviously want to see the other 2 players/their replacements. Although it could be a time zone or schedule thing I would like to hear more from Maduisha, who contributed very quickly to that above wagon, answered one question, and hasn't posted since. Again, I don't have scumreads on anyone but think there is something to this situation.

I'll probably not be on much longer tonight but will take another read tomorrow morning.

I think you are thinking too much into the wagon. Clemency and Maduisha votes were RVS. DkKoba pushed the wagon because he thought I was scummy. What was weird for you about this wagon?

Yeah, I'm probably thinking too much about it but the specific part that I'm hung up on is DkKoba joining it, Clemency almost immediately leaving it, and them then arguing about that move for a page. Feels like someone there has a deeper motive? I'm not really sure how to take Clemency's recent claim that they were just testing a strategy with the whole DkKoba argument.

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In other areas, I have a mild suspicion on midwaybear. Feels like they are posting just enough to avoid looking like they aren't posting but they haven't offered many opinions. The slightly weird backtrack between posts 58 and 60 on the townblocks has me as well. "what is a scumblock anyways?" doesn't read super genuine to me.

I'll move my vote to VOTE: midwaybear for now.

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clemency is town

Want to elaborate? Saw your post while typing mine up and I'd love to hear the reasoning.

[Apogee]

Spoiler: DkKoba Post 105 and 109

So - to add onto what joqiza noticed about maidusha. I'd like to know why she pivoted to midway as well. I'm going to go hands off here to get more interaction from around the table but the urge to steamroll is within me so it better be good.

Although I'm also aware of the benefits for scum to create townblocks around them like Midwaybear said, I don't think scum blatantly says "let's build a townblock" and rather tries to get townread by people they're going to townread back as to create the block in a way that feels organic and non-suspicious, since scum cares about appearances.

If you're referring to this it just reads more like a mention than any sort of pivot @Dk, they were actually referring to you here not midway.

Anyway, I'm gonna just wait for more people to post, I don't think I can mine anything else out of this thread for now. Tbh I'm used to the my EpicMafia forum games where we all know each other and we can rack up like 80 pages in a day (Dk can back me up on this) so I figured this was gonna be a bit of a culture clash but I'll try to be patient ^__^

my brain mixed up apogee and mai lmao. please disregard that point, my brain thought it was part of it too. overall the tr on me seemed unnatural to me which is what was my MAIN trigger for wanting to push mai.

I feel like I should clean up my reasons for moving onto midwaybear then cause its apparently caused a little confusion. It was not a particularly deep move and much more interesting (and seemingly well thought out) accusations have flown since then, but I felt moving onto even a (quite) tenuous scumread made sense as other people moved out of RVS. Still not super comfortable with all of his posts but I'm not going to heavily push either at this point

[Apogee]

Just looked it up on the wiki -- Get To Know A Scummer.
Apparently like a personal question/interview thread to learn about people on this forum.

[Apogee]

I'd imagine the SE players have better first hand experience

[Apogee]

Yeah I've reread all the stuff that happened through the night and seems like a lot of arguments popped up quickly.

I'm leaning against calling DkKoba mafia this early -- more of a null/slight town. Seems to me they have pushed hard for conversation all game which (albeit in my quite limited) experience suggests more towny. I don't really have meta or logic to back it up, but their reactions in the last page or so also feel more frustrated then frightened? My one hesitancy with them is that I think some of the questions enomis asked were legitimate and an attempt to get useful information.

Midwaybear hasn't really changed my view on him with his reread, but also didn't make himself sound more scummy.

Ydrasse is probably my strongest townlean. Not really sure on Clemancy -- I want to see how he reacts to the more recent stuff.

Feel free to ask questions about any of this. I'll be back later with some thoughts on other people

[Apogee]

Also, hi Apogee. I want to ask you the meaning of voting Midway and saying you're voting them "for now". Why are you announcing your position is non commital? I wish to understand the meaning of that vote, because it certainly wasn't to apply pressure.

Well I think its fair to disagree on the wisdom or success of the strategy, but my intent was to get midwaybear to feel just enough pressure to come out and post (actual opinions) without being defensive. Like I wanted to hear some actual analysis from them because at that point (and still now) their posts strike me as slightly scummy, but there wasn't much to go off of in the actual content as oppossed to the context and lack of content. The "for now" caveat was because I wanted engagement without them becoming overtly defensive (like what happened in the DkKoba/votato/enomis exchange above). You familiar with the expression "give them the rope to hang themselves"? That was my rough idea, and it doesn't work super well if the target thinks you are lusting for their head.

Of course, that didn't work out all that great because midway's response in post #83 was pretty defensive and reductionist, but at least we got something.

Let me know what you think.

p-edit: what you (Maduisha) just commented on about the "activity post" is exactly why I wanted to get some thoughts out of midway, and I figured the soft(er) sell was the way to go about it even if it didn't work perfectly.

[Apogee]

Clemency, you haven't posted in a bit. Any takes on the developments today?

[Apogee]

there's at least 1 scum between emonis + midway and I know it. I'll delete my account if I' wrong about that.

Keeping this here. BTW, I am reading midwear somewhat town so there is high probability that you are going to have to delete your account.

Any particular reason for the midwaybear townlean? Just checked through your posts and I think its the first time you've mentioned that, and most people have them as null/mild scum right now it seems.

[Apogee]

@apogee: i don't think that it's much of a stretch to have a townread on midway, really. the simplest explanation imo is that they said they were confused and haven't added much because of it.
it could be a big-brained mafia strategy to pass off why they haven't outed much of anything, but... sometimes it's easier to take things at face value and accept confusion is confusion. that he was willing to outright say it gave him a townpoint or two to me.

despite this i do think it doesn't help the town at all to not at least try, confusion or not. and if it continues on as more content comes out, it'll be more suspect in my eyes than it is now.

Yeah I think that's a reasonable conclusion. I'm probably closer to null on midway myself after seeing this and their recent post (although of course who and how they scumread will probably tell us a lot more).

My reason for asking enomis this however was less directly about midway and more about why they particularly thought so. I'll elaborate more on this after they say something (because I'm interested in thought process and talking too much about it beforehand ruins the analysis). I want to hear enomis's thoughts too cause I'm pretty sure that was the first time they directly mentioned midwaybear at all.

[Apogee]

i think scum are apogee and maduisha

Ok I'll bite. Why?

And are you suggesting Maduisha and I are be the scum team or that are we individually are your strongest scum reads?

[Apogee]

Well at least we are about to get some content...

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Ok. Not really sure how exactly I'm supposed to argue against "its obvious." Not sure either about how my posts in and of themselves make me scum, and I'd be a bad person to do a general analysis (but I'm happy to talk specific points if you point to my posts and say this is flawed/tonally bad/damaging to town). But let's talk about Maduisha and I's interactions (really should be interaction).
Interactions:

We pretty much interacted only over one thing: the midwaybear votes. I put a vote on Midway and then Maduisha did as well a few posts later, but then questioned my reasoning behind it. I actually (kinda?) see how our interactions could be scripted to start a wagon on a less active townie who might be an easier target. But I don't think any behavior during that time implies scum over townie? Doing my best to look from the outside in, I feel the best way to interpret this is a pair of townies without strong reads on each other both noticing the same thing about a third player, and wanting more information.

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Again, I'm happy to talk and explain reasoning on any of my moves (we definitely need more conversation, and I'm probably guilty of not posting as much as I could), but calling me an "obvious" scum and leaving it there is not really helpful for town if you are town.

[Apogee]

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Yeah I kinda figured this was a reaction test but I hoped it would generate a few other responses.

I'll elaborate on Ydrasse. Tbh their approach honestly seems kinda like how I try to approach town right now? A little hesitancy to jump forward too hard on any wagon, a mix of questions and reactions, and feels pretty genuine. Seems like Ydrasse sincerely wants content and a measured analysis of it. To the extent I have hesitance, it would be her not seeming to commit to particular ideas super hard, but that applies to me and quite a few other people.

DkKoba I'm not super leaning either way. I agree with Maduisha that he felt more frustrated than anything the last few pages, but I'm less convinced that's necessarily tvt then she is.

Midway I've commented on quite a few times, and I want to reserve further judgement until they post the analysis they promised. I'm hesitant with the fluffposting they have done, but I guess that's not necessarily scummy, although in a vacuum I normally would think it is (other people might have their own experience -- this is my first online game so I'm not super familiar with how much of that is to be expected).

p-edit: a bunch happened while I typed this. I'll look over all of it and post thoughts in a bit

[Apogee]

Um now seeing it really not sure Midwaybear's reads make me feel any better about them. Glad a little pressure seems to make them engage somewhat however.

[Apogee]

Votato's most recent post makes me feel quite a bit better about them. Not townleaning them yet, but its nice to see that after a few questionable earlier posts.

Also -- totally agree with them about one thing. Lets see some votes!

[Apogee]

what do you think of my reads?
i don't really scumread anyone else, but no townreads really expect maybe you and Ydrasse
i think you're more townier than ydrasse though
a lot of the reasons people townread ydrasse is because she is open with her thoughts, but that is what scum are trying to do so town can townread them
lol maybe im paranoid too

I think they are reasonable, but also kind of vanilla? Its consistent with both of the two scenarios I could see you falling under. Keeps you kinda in the want-to-see more group still.

[Apogee]

Sounds like a couple of you have played with midwaybear before. Was he similarily hesitant and did he do the same question patterns in a previous game? Of course this can't be indicative but knowing a little more would be helpful to understand the mindset.

[Apogee]

Yeah sorry I've had a couple of things to work on this morning irl so haven't got a chance to do too much in-depth analysis. Based on just my surface read-through, I'm concerned by Clemency. Clemency seems to oscillate back and forth a lot, and not in what feels a particularily townie way. I liked Enomis's response to my question to him about townreading midwaybear, even if I'm not convinced about midway one way or another. His continued questions could be seen in a few different ways and I am not particularly sure one way or another on him overall. Joquiza I'll have to take another look at. Votato's actions seem townie but his tone is hard for me to read at this point.

For other people haven't seen anything to make me really change earlier reads but deeper reading might.

I would like to see Joquiza and Clemency vote however, if just so we have a better ground to work with.

p-edit: Ok midway versus Maduisha should bring some interesting content I'll jump in with any questions.

p-edit2: Wow I'm a slow response composer guess that comes with practice. I'm not sure Maduisha is "eager to get lynched" but midway can you point to where else recently Maduisha has had scummy takes besides pushing you?

[Apogee]

Alright that brings us to the last read, most important one saved for last:

Apogee

Immediately questions that Clemency townslipped, seems confused by the proposition, leaves door open for enomis to push on it while clearly not actually following the logic, scummy. Has a bizaree wagonomics post in #64, “something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird,” yeah it’s funny he got taken up to L-2 by page 2 but handwaving it away as “weird” in this vague sense feels like a way to take pressure off him. Honestly an Apogee/enomis scumteam could be the tea based on their weird interactions and their posts in general. Post #81 is suspicious as well, “Feels like someone there has a deeper motive?” Vague histrionics about wolves moving in and off wagons with no fingers directly pointed. Post #178 is super questionable, how has no one called them out on this. Huge hedging behavior in the middle of what was very probably town vs town without actually trying to defuse it, and no backing for any reads in that post. I have no clue how this guy has skated by this far without anyone putting any sort of pressure on him and so I’m going to start

I'm surprisingly happy that someone has started a wagon on me, mostly because since the only thing I know for sure is my alignment I'll hopefully be able to analyze reactions and push's better. Let's break down this argument:

Immediately questions that Clemency townslipped, seems confused by the proposition, leaves door open for enomis to push on it while clearly not actually following the logic, scummy.

This was a genuine misunderstanding. I was fully convinced at the time of 21[\post] that Enomis's "scumslip" was a joking way of disputing clemency's first post claim of "rejoice, the best player is on your side" and claiming that Enomis was really the best players. My reasoning was because of step 2 and 3 in: Enomis's logic

2) Your claim of town was "rejoice! the best player in this game is on your side tonight"
3) Meaning you need to know that I am town in-order to claim town (Since only I posted beside you when you claim town)

You can see how this could be interpreted as Enomis claiming in a round-about manner that they are the best player.

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Has a bizaree wagonomics post in #64, “something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird,” yeah it’s funny he got taken up to L-2 by page 2 but handwaving it away as “weird” in this vague sense feels like a way to take pressure off him. Honestly an Apogee/enomis scumteam could be the tea based on their weird interactions and their posts in general. Post #81 is suspicious as well, “Feels like someone there has a deeper motive?” Vague histrionics about wolves moving in and off wagons with no fingers directly pointed.

Well I can't speak to an enomis scumteam besides saying I'm not on it, but both posts were accurate reflections of my thoughts at the time. I've approached this game trying to be very careful about going hard on wagons earlier. In person, I consider myself a more mechanical player, and I get most of my reads through voting patterns, night moves, and catching people in contradictions. In this new format (online), I was mostly angling off of gut intuition at that point since I'm not fully confident in straight scumreads, and even you conceded the L-2 move was noticeably strange.

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Huge hedging behavior in the middle of what was very probably town vs town without actually trying to defuse it, and no backing for any reads in that post.

Ok in [post]178 I'll agree I was hedging. I was marginally overwhelmed reading through that night. The DkKoba read there was my best take on them, although sure I guess I could have cited particularized information. Midwaybear I wasn't making a claim, just saying my read on them in 81 and 111 still held. Ydrasse and Clem I threw in hoping some conversation might be stimulated, but both of those also felt self-explainatory to me at the time.

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I'm happy to keep talking about earlier posts of mine, but I'd also like your opinion on say 233 and 266, where I feel I get a little more mechanical.

[Apogee]

I need some time to think about this idk if I like it. Honestly I disagree with this count of vote count / bandwagon analysis before we even have any info on anyone's alignment, like I've looked at this sort of thing mechanically AFTER we have scum in the graveyard and I'm looking for partner interactions but I find it really questionable before we know anything about any of the other players, so 233 seems like a huge huge reach to me. Your post 266 is also pretty weak honestly sorry but it's true, I touched on this earlier but I don't think it's a good look and you're still trying to prevent people from making TvT reads which is exactly how scum behaves.

Tone is just so so unconfident, hesitant to clear anyone but also not trying to push anyone as scum. Could still be villager but just weird to me that no one's called you out for this. If you can do me a favor can you basically revisit 266 or maybe drop an updated read list but basically go into more depth about why you mark certain people as town and why you mark others as scum, I think that would be helpful at least

So re: vote analytics I’m happy to look into mechanics a little but even as you mentioned that’s more a d2+ thing. I’ve also never played a d1 start before, so all of this action is new to me. I will take you and Maduisha both indicating that hedging on claims doesn’t help with pressure as a sign I should be more confident even if I don’t fully feel it. I have no problem doing a more confident reads list but it’s hard early on for me to overcome being a hedger by nature. I can accept if you think some of my content is weak or illogical, but I’m not sure those posts indicate me being scum.

I’m also going to push back (hopefully more confidently) on some of your claims regarding me perpetuating TVT. I think you are a) conflating reads you have now on situations with what information I had in the moment. Particularly with the Enomis early situation. I’d just misread one of their actual claims after they had misunderstood one of my rvs reasons for voting. I was not particularly confident in the situation. Also, at that time although I didn’t think that the scumslip necessarily existed, Clemency was kind of off the wall, I had no desire to shut down content, and prompting some more interaction by not committing yet seemed smart.

Not sure why 233 is questionable I felt the voting pattern part wasn’t a huge portion.

[Apogee]

Spoiler: Joqiza Post 385

Hm okay. Let me clarify the framework I'm approaching this with.

We're on Day 1 of a setup with 7 town 2 wolves. How are wolves incentivized to behave? There are a couple things but these are the three points I'm focusing on for right now:
1. wolves want the day to end with a town lynched
2. wolves want to distance themselves from the lynch as much as possible
3. in general they want to be townread or have "towncredit"

Btw: at this point in time the ratio of information between the wolves and the town is at the highest it will be in any day of the game, wolves know everyone's alignment whereas town know nothing and have no information to work off of.

In general what I have seen is that on Day 1 of a game wolves are cautious. Wolves are less likely to hardpush on a town player and if they do it can backfire because in order to do so they must effect conviction in their tone and analysis on a player whose alignment they already know to be town. Wolves who hardpush can play their hand by revealing the bad faith nature of their push, and additionally they can simply be blindly OMGUSed by towns who get emotional. Wolves are cautious, wolves wait for a town vs. town bandwagon to start and then encourage it, wolves say things like "I'm not sure which one is scum but this doesn't read like town vs town" and then after one player gets lynched they go gUeSs I wAs wRoNg and push on the other. Hedging behavior can also be indicative of scum because it is indicative of MAF KNOWLEDGE and the need to SET UP AFTER A MISLYNCH. "Oh, I always had reservations, I was just following/sheeping X." Yeah hedging behavior does not always imply wolf, obviously not because if it did we'd have like four wolves this game. That said wolf on day 1 often implies hedging behavior, the exception being more experienced scum players who may hard tunnel if they think they can get away with it and it's beneficial for them to do so. You're saying that you are a hedger by nature but unfortunately as this is appears to be your first forum game on the site I have no way to verify that claim. I'll keep it in mind.

I’m also going to push back (hopefully more confidently) on some of your claims regarding me perpetuating TVT. I think you are a) conflating reads you have now on situations with what information I had in the moment. Particularly with the Enomis early situation. I’d just misread one of their actual claims after they had misunderstood one of my rvs reasons for voting. I was not particularly confident in the situation. Also, at that time although I didn’t think that the scumslip necessarily existed, Clemency was kind of off the wall, I had no desire to shut down content, and prompting some more interaction by not committing yet seemed smart.

Perhaps I'm misreading, if so, correct me. Let me explain exactly what it reads like to me. By post 23, it appears to me that you have a grasp on the situation:

"but I personally figured the "your side" was more of a presumption of most of us being townies, and his indirect reference to you being a townie is more of the same."

This is the take I agree with regardless of Clemency's true alignment. In post 63, enomis is doubling down again on the technicalities of Clemency's language, yet you remain on the sidelines. In fact, let me quote post 64:

I've been reading back through the thread, and although I don't feel I have solid reads a few things stood out.
I just keep thinking about the pretty quick 3 person wagon on Enomis that then Clemency withdrew from. Clemency's withdrawal could be a scum move to not be seen as wagoning too hard too early? But I'm not sure it really makes more sense for him to withdraw as a maf than as a town who just didn't want a big push yet. Feel like I still need to see more to make a firm guess on the individual players involved, but either way something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird.

Instead of clarifying the "slip" argument between enomis and Clemency with information it appears that you possess, this post effects a subtle shade of Clemency and a subtle defense of enomis. Why was that your interpretation of Clemency's withdrawal, if you agree with me that the reason the enomis wagon felt "weird" was because it was too early to run him up to L-2?

First part as in your mechanical framework I agree with. We are in a low-information state. With regards to hedging however, I'll agree your take is one possibility. I think you are a little reductionist because it can be useful to moderate expectations as a town. So early on, and with low chances of any of those wagons (at least in those forms) moving into a real vote, giving my honest opinion felt more important than eliminating the chance of me trying to keep an escape hatch. Moderating takes (imo) gives people a better insight into my thought process, which can provide information in the future, and I always think as town being as honest as possible with takes is best. I agree going forward on real wagons, hedging will be more something to watch out for.

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I agree in post 23 I understand the "scumslip" doesn't seem to a real slip.

Before 64, no one was talking about the scumslip being a prime reason for suspicion on Clemency, with the exception of enomis mentioning it once in 63 as something that may be true. I'll quote the takes on him leading up to my post there:

Spoiler: Whole lot of posts about Clemency

i dont
i'd simply rather push a newbie slot than an SE since they're more likely to slip up or let on more than they should

i prefer taking the path of least resistance

yikes. this is a scummy reason.

what makes u townread emonis right now clemency. your unvote is stalling what can be a good early alignment telling push.

this also comes off as awful accusative considering we're talking about the first wagon of the game maybe 1 real time day in? nobody's gonna crack and fold this early on unless they're brand new to the game


it feels more like you're trying to latch on to a loose end for town points than legitimately trying to shake alignment indicative play out of people

u said something so blatently scummy there was no reason to need to explain it. you claimed you want an "easy push". You're going to need to give some reason to pivot other than "its easier to go after someone noobier".

And now you're pivoting to trying to claim I'm trying to needlessly shade you? I find that ridiculous.

pedit: clemency seems to be trying to focus on discrediting me over trying to help gamesolve and I'd like to highlight that with his recent posts in reaction to me calling him on his weird reasoning for pivoting off pressure.

no one answered my question about mechposting. hurts like crazy...

honestly i didn't think clemency's reasoning was so weird? it's easier to get tells out of newer players than it is people who know how it goes, so some votes who's never been in that position before would probably yield more tells.

however, i don't think it really justifies clemency being so... aloof? hands-off? in this instance. it makes more sense to ask "well, what do you see about xyz that makes it so bad." fmpov? idk if that's a difference in playstyle or not about not engaging until there's more to engage against though.

idk clemency seems a bit defensive, yet nonchalant which makes me a bit suspicious
just waiting for the last two slots now lol

pedit: what's mechposting

mechposting is a term i made up for a specific type of filler that involves explaining game mechanics rather than attempting to advance the game state. Something I found that I didn't like about emonis' questions is:

1) yeah thats fairly obvious
2) this one is the big one, it looks to be reaction fishing for roles to get people to act more of a certain way.(again this post only prompted me to want to push on emonis, not actually scumread him, I am not shading him for this, merely throwing out a theory that I based my push on)
3) fairly useless but also NAI and reasonable to say but also can be interpreted as extra filler.

boring not really game related content ahead warning:
I am a mentor on Epicmafia myself, and something I try to get my mentees to do is to try to figure out things on their own and focus on mechanics/situations I see them fail at after its happened. handholding isn't necessary, just play the game. it's a social deduction game. worrying too much about playing the "right" way will just get in the way of helping you win. So essentially I like to go at it at a "need to know" basis. In the interest of the game actually, I'd prefer for a noob to townslip, as it makes the game easier. No need to throw out information before it's needed etc etc.


right now I can feel we can form an early townblock I just need some good participation from everyone first.

i think it doesnt have enough merit to warrant an answer and frankly it hurts my feelings

If this is true I apologize. It was a good way to kick off the game from RVS. Also, the slip could be true.

Something I found that I didn't like about emonis' questions is:

1) yeah thats fairly obvious
2) this one is the big one, it looks to be reaction fishing for roles to get people to act more of a certain way.(again this post only prompted me to want to push on emonis, not actually scumread him, I am not shading him for this, merely throwing out a theory that I based my push on)
3) fairly useless but also NAI and reasonable to say but also can be interpreted as extra filler.

Which question are you referring to?

Also, do you think me or clemency is more scummy right now?

Lastly, in your experience, is there alot of scums who farm "town points" by mech posting?
----------------------------------------------------------

I don't think townblock is a good thing to create purposefully . I feel that it makes people not want to change their townread(Stuck in their town read) and make people defend their townreads more than they should.

I honestly was not thinking about Enomis's reiteration of the scumslip. It was (or at least appeared to me as being) in passing, and was certainly far from the only reason to consider Clemency suspect, and before 63 had not been talked about much at all for 20+ posts. 3 other people were talking about Clemency's behavior. This led me to 64.

Two things were going on. I was trying to reconcile Clemency's behavior in the L-2 situation with the other takes on him in the last page, and I was as of yet unsure on DkKoba and Ydrasse (who had Clemency as scum/town with questions respectively). By questioning Clemency's mafianess then saying I see him as town potentially, I wanted to indicate I was suspicious but not firm enough to push yet, and hopefully provoke more conversation around that particular part. I'm not really sure where you are getting I exonerated Enomis, besides to the extent calling the wagon strange does. I certainly don't think there was implicit or explicit support for the "scumread."

---------------------------

We've talked quite a bit about the L-2, and that it was weird. Let me try to summarize your position: You don't think Clemency was behaving scummy by dipping from the wagon. You've indicated DkKoba is a town lean for you as well. So what is the weird part? Madiusha dropping a second vote on Enomis almost right away?

Hi! I don't know anybody here! I hope we'll get along very soon and have the least amount of replacements possible!

People who vote me are all scums.

For real? Then we better get this wagon started to weed them all out!

VOTE: Enomis

To this point now, I feel that Clemency's behavior just in that section doesn't indicate town in the way you suggested in 374, as I can totally see a scum clemency getting cold feet and pulling back. Like you said, scum want plausible deniability d1.

[Apogee]

To clarify, I don't neccesarily see it as scum either. It really feels mixed. The rest of Clemency's behavior deserves a much longer post that hopefully I construct soon.

[Apogee]

I actually do understand on some points, because I probably did make not optimal moves. I’m happy to talk about those.

But yes midway I do think you were more scummy than me for many similar reasons to why Joquiza thinks I am, if that makes you feel better

[Apogee]

Not sure why 233 is questionable I felt the voting pattern part wasn’t a huge portion.

Well at least we are about to get some content...

---------------------------

Ok. Not really sure how exactly I'm supposed to argue against "its obvious." Not sure either about how my posts in and of themselves make me scum, and I'd be a bad person to do a general analysis (but I'm happy to talk specific points if you point to my posts and say this is flawed/tonally bad/damaging to town). But let's talk about Maduisha and I's interactions (really should be interaction).
Interactions:

We pretty much interacted only over one thing: the midwaybear votes. I put a vote on Midway and then Maduisha did as well a few posts later

, but then questioned my reasoning behind it. I actually (kinda?) see how our interactions could be

scripted to start a wagon on a less active townie

who might be an easier target. But I don't think any behavior during that time implies scum over townie? Doing my best to look from the outside in,

I feel the best way to interpret this is a pair of townies without strong reads on each other both noticing the same thing about a third player, and wanting more information.

----------------------------

Again, I'm happy to talk and explain reasoning on any of my moves (we definitely need more conversation, and I'm probably guilty of not posting as much as I could), but calling me an "obvious" scum and leaving it there is not really helpful for town if you are town.

I've added bold to the parts that r questionable here. I actually don't think you arguing against being a team is that bad logic, I don't teamread u guys really or at least I didn't at all before that post, I just think the paragraph conclusion: "I feel the best way to interpret this..." seems like a reach based simply off your votes and interactions.

That last line probably made more sense to me, because that’s how I interpreted it at that point and I guess I kinda reverse projected it. It’s a stretch to an observer, but to me I felt our interactions were tvt and I guess I was happy to stop a tvt if it was in it lol.

The first part you bolded is true. We had the one exchange over midway, and the proximity of the votes is the only thing I could see as indicating collusion. Remember, I had no idea exactly how serious votaro was although I guessed it was a reaction, I was not sure. I was trying to outline what his line of logic may have been so that they would chime in more and elaborate on how our interaction was “obviously scummy”

[Apogee]

Can’t trip up midway if he only answers in monosyllables

[Apogee]

Oops I posted this without realizing an entire page had gone by my joke is now an hour late

[Apogee]

Love the meme I’m really unsure if I take solace or am sad in being two of three little brain slots. Although I low key think midway/votato is more likely than its top tier location would suggest

[Apogee]

I just noticed something: apogee and enomis have the same style where they both seperate their thoughts with
------------------

Yeah I’ll straight admit I copied that from him after seeing him do it and it seemed like a good system

[Apogee]

regardless I'm about to drop a bombshell post:

Apogee

here are several posts where Apogee calls to contribute ~later~. (i was skimming for this kind of content on a hunch since I saw their low postcount)
178
226
266
380 - meaty post but at the end more promises of "i'll give content later"
384

but fr apogee has done a lot of deflection of contribution. and you know what? I have a strong feeling they are likely scum coasting right now based on this and their other posts feeling......... flimsy.
I'm switching off of maduisha because there is not much more we can gleam from that slot without straight up lynching them, I feel, and I am not lynching that slot at this moment in time.
VOTE: Apogee

So this is in someways a terrible excuse and just more deflection but where I live it’s a) Mother’s Day and b) the first nice day since the state reopened so I’ve been outside with family all day so far. I hoped to get to do a big post like joquizas a few pages back last night but conked out instead. No need to believe one is coming today, but once you see it do try to believe me.

I’ll reiterate I’m fine with pressure wagons on me, because I’m fine with more information, but DkKoba i don’t think this is your best take. I don’t think I’m more deflection and less real material than clemency, votato, or midway (at least until right now lol). Similarily, maduisha in word and votato in action have hedges just as much or more.

Midway I have no idea what to think about now because there last page of post have been reasonable (maybe just because of inverse OMGUS) but I’m going to agree Clemency is the person most deserving of pressure.

VOTE: Clemency

His behavior has been arguable scummy all game. Claiming he is switching up strategy, suggesting pressuring easier targets, significantly worse false promises than me. I don’t buy the townslip DkKoba buys. His posting behavior up to and including the alt slips hs been erratic. I’m not a big fan of too scummy to be scum arguments. Again, Saying I’ll elaborate later probably hurts me, but i actually will so ...

[Apogee]

Hold up I fail to see why lynching me first gives more information that literally any other first lynch. Votato you seem really happy to jump around wagons.

[Apogee]

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

I have absolutely no clue why we are a likely scumpair.

[Apogee]

That’s terrible logic on so many levels unless we are the most straightforwardly scummy pair of all time

[Apogee]

why are you intent on diffusing everything midway.

As your buddy (I use this straightforwardly not in a scumbuddy sense) Joquiza explained and critiqued me over yesterday, town have an obligation to diffuse what they see as tvt. Also, you and votato both latch onto the first posts I made, which with hindsight I agree could be seen as scummy. But midways point is that they are not inconsistent with the explanation I offered and defended to at least joquizas initial satisfaction around post 380.

P-edit: votato your vote is on me not madiusha...

[Apogee]

We literally are on different wagons ...

[Apogee]

Now your tunneling hard, like I’m told you were last game you were in...

[Apogee]

How can votato both have gotten everything he wanted out of the madiusha wagon in seeing scumhood and be singlemindedly pushing midway and I as the scumpair?

[Apogee]

Midway so impatient and extra keen for me to stop the wagon on apogee. Naughty naughty.

I’m not even sure I can argue against this anymore.

DkKoba still hasn’t really engaged with any of my substantive objections fyi

[Apogee]

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

I didn’t realize it on my first read through but for reference:

This is the first post someone implies Midway and I are scumpair
This happens before I post anything in my defense
At best, way way overeager and catching me up in a tunnel.
At worst, scum

[Apogee]

votato is contributing without needing prompting
I am pushing for information primarily and a votato push does nothing but allow lurkers to lurk harder. Do you see why your diffusing is extremely anti town

In this case can you clarify why you haven’t looked at clemency in a while?

[Apogee]

Speak for yourself on townblock I have you as null.

Albeit with the caveat that if you do a few more of the ISO’s similar to what you did on me that can change.

[Apogee]

Again, I know I keep promising and I know it is scummy, but I’m going to put out a long post with reads and yes, a case on clemency’s spot (although the replacement messed up part of my reasoning ugh) this evening.

[Apogee]

Well I guess we will be able to see some of that slots work now

[Apogee]

pedit: why is apogee going so hard for midway.

Do you mean clemency?

[Apogee]

Nope sorry not l-1

[Apogee]

wdym
i believe apogee is town and I think he believes that I am too
that is a townblock I think unless my definition is wrong
how would that imply that I am being coached? I don't need a coach anyways lol

pedit: rip whatever

he thought you were scummy as of 391. which then transferred into an "idk" which then is... this mess where he seems weirdly determined to validate your content ([post]586[/post).

@apogee: you're voting clemency's slot, so i'm presuming you scumread them. who else do you scumread at this point, and who do you think is scum alongside them?
furthermore, do you still think midway is as scummy as you did earlier?

In short yes, clemency is one of my scumreads. The others are madiusha and votato. Clemency is the one I chose to vote because pressure was the only thing that got them to post earlier.

I have been trending null on midway, and honestly need to see them interact in a situation I am not deeply involved in to be sure. I’ve obviously had a positive emotional reaction to their support here, but if i try to push that aside I’m still deeply uncertain.

What I will say is one of the reasons I’ve defended them to an extent is I’ve almost been forced to by the scumpair read on us literally before I had any posts at all about the situation and where any interaction between us has been used as justification for us being scumpair

[Apogee]

Wait DK I have no problem pushing midway. My only problem is that I’ve been de facto forced into defending them by you and votato claiming scumpair on literally only on his posts about my defense

[Apogee]

Midway, I said push, not lynch. Your not top 3 scum for me, but I still have questions about parts of your play. It’s in the same way I’d be fine wagon on enomis or even DkKoba

[Apogee]

Midway, I said push, not lynch. Your not top 3 scum for me, but I still have questions about parts of your play. It’s in the same way I’d be fine wagon on enomis or even DkKoba

who are your top three scum and why.

Being typed up in another window right now.

[Apogee]

Ok let's rumble:

I'll start with spoiler-ed takes on ever person in alphabetical order and then have an overall rating at the end. My townreads will generally have less description than my null/scum.
Disclaimer: I've really only looked up to like 692 while typing this so I might miss more recent posts if I don't catch them in individuals threads. Not going to try to p-edit the whole thing, although I'll happily discuss how things have changed after I catch back up.

Spoiler: Apogee

This is me. I'm not going to talk much about me in a post about other people, ask me things elsewhere. I will say (this should be obvious) all my takes are from the perspective that I am town, so maybe thinking about it like I claimed town innocent or something will help you understand my logic.

Spoiler: DkKoba

Null down from town. I like the energy and geniune emotion/frustration displayed in 255, 271, and pretty much any encounter with enomis between 100-300. At this point, signs pointed to them being headstrong, overconfident, but townie. They stirred conversation, drove early pushes.

I've put them down to null because of several reasons.

First, there is only so many times you can claim x is 100% scum, x and y are scumpair, you are unambiguously town/scum/whatever before I start to question your motives. Wall of quotes incoming:

On Clemency "townslipping", which they never really clarify:

Official Vote Count 1.02

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Clemency

(1): enomis

DkKoba

(1): midwaybear

Maduisha

(1): Apogee

midwaybear

(1): Ydrasse

Not Voting

(4): RandaAlzifahri, Lij00, Clemency, Maduisha

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• RandaAlzifahri and Lij00 have (expired on 2020-05-06 12:30:56) to confirm their role before I start looking for replacements.

[/area]

clemency is town

I was hoping you were at least typing up an explaination or reading the thread but it seems votato has chosen neither.
please read for context b4 you try to start pointless wagons because we're not in rvs anymore.

as for emonis still pushing clemency: exactly what emonis listed is what makes clemency town because he is genuine and his intentions were slipped as town. sorry bub we aren't lynching them today.

i feel a bit bad
i promise 30+ posts over the course of next day kk love you bye

i formally retract my townlean on clemency.

On Enomis, and then Enomis + Midway, Enomis + Votato

Official Vote Count 1.02

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Clemency

(1): enomis

DkKoba

(1): midwaybear

Maduisha

(1): Apogee

midwaybear

(1): Ydrasse

Not Voting

(4): RandaAlzifahri, Lij00, Clemency, Maduisha

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• RandaAlzifahri and Lij00 have (expired on 2020-05-06 12:30:56) to confirm their role before I start looking for replacements.

[/area]

clemency is town

I was hoping you were at least typing up an explaination or reading the thread but it seems votato has chosen neither.
please read for context b4 you try to start pointless wagons because we're not in rvs anymore.

as for emonis still pushing clemency: exactly what emonis listed is what makes clemency town because he is genuine and his intentions were slipped as town. sorry bub we aren't lynching them today.

i feel a bit bad
i promise 30+ posts over the course of next day kk love you bye

i formally retract my townlean on clemency.

This long accusation of Enomis, and then Enomis + votato and enomis + midway:

responding to ydrasse in 112
I understand your want to keep pushing enomis but I think mai is a better push right now.
Although I will hop onto enomis as they are a scumlean atm as well.

ur scumminess meter is going up the more you get defensive and nitpicky about what i'm saying. give me some good content instead of this constant backtracking.

votato engage me in good faith or I'll lead on your partner emonis. I was trying to get more information on other slots but it seems you chose to be a headass.

@DkKoba, how about you stop waving off my arguments and just answer them.

I am not interested in having pages of arguments with you as I am sure that's not good for town.

If you are going to continue to be like this, I am going to lynch you if I find no better scummy players at the end of the day.

p-edit: Talk about being annoyed. You know you are not the only one being triggered right?

please keep talking. your scumfile just keeps growing with each action + statement you take/make.

what questions votato. which questions did I not answer.
please quote them.

If you are town I advise you stop nitpicking stupid things such as "not wanting to answer obvious bait questions".

emonis needs to give better reasoning for their motives or I refuse to engage with something that's been already answered. They asked FOLLOW UP questions that showed lack of comprehension of what I said.

You need to actually read the thread and stop pretending you have rererad because you have shown you have only read about 2 pages.

Okay I really need to go but lastly @DkKoba I don't have a strong read on you yet but if you're town please don't get too locked into the fights on Day 1, like just because you're town doesn't make the 2 people pushing on you both scum and I'm worried you're gonna miss the forest for the trees here because that's what I've seen in the other games I've played with you. I haven't had time to read through them and figure out who's acting in good faith yet but I'll do that this evening, and in general I just think it's too early for the big brain 2/2 if you get what I'm saying

there's at least 1 scum between emonis + midway and I know it. I'll delete my account if I' wrong about that.

REMEMBER for most of this interaction their vote was still on Madiusha.

And of course the current situation with me and midway, which I will not rehash here. I've already indicated how I feel about more or less being scumpair-ed before posting, with a guy who my vote was on almost all game.

DkKoba is completly allowed to change their mind. I am just wary of such confidence paired with such swings and seeming illogical beliefs held at the same time.

Reading their ISO, another post stood out.

I don't understand. I have been in the seat of pressure before as a very aggressive player. I have to lay out my logic for people. It works oftentimes. I just want to know what your logic is. I'm looking for information. Information on your slot mindset in exchange for an unvote. That is all I want. (unless I determine you are indeed scum in which case the vote stays)

Yeah, DkKoba has provided some logic. But it's not constant. As much as I feel their emotion is a towntell, many of their claims do rely on it to varying degrees. They leave a number of posts against them un-argued and forge ahead on certain points.

All in all, I'm still inclined to think aggressive town who lashes out a little hard. I'm also trying to keep my own emotion out of my read, to varying success. Maybe its just causing me to hedge too much. But I feel there are enough questions to warrant a null. I can see this as a mafia playing aggressive, taking refuge in audacity, and hoping that through pressure they force mistakes. Just as equally, I can take their play at face and emotional value and conclude town who is going too hard in some areas. They are one of the more townie of my nulls, however.

Spoiler: enomis

My second null read, and the first of several reads that I think might land me in hot water. I honestly see two reads of this guy. First is a mafia who wanted to gain townpoints with mechposting, driving questions, and one early push. Second is that he's a helpful guy who wanted to promote early action, got heated up in one debate, maybe nitpicks details too much early on, and then for reasons didn't post much recently.

149 is one of the strongest pro-town Enomis posts in my opinion. Actually, his entire push on DkKoba felt good, even if it could easily be tvt. He uses a lot more evidence than I thought the first time I read through.

I'm chill with his early questions. It was a good start to getting some things moving.

However, he leans too much into scum/town slips that no one else really sees. Consider 301, the "Clemency Scumslip" and then his interaction with Clemency around 304

This leads to one of my larger causes of concern. Having weathered an early push and a half, he now slides out of the thread for 200 posts. From post 200 on, he only has 6 posts. More interaction will be needed to actual suss out if he is scum, but there is a reason I mentioned him a few posts ago as one of the wagons I would go on no questions asked. If you think one of these situations is impossible, I'll be happy to hear out your logic but I am really unsure if there is any way we can know for sure.

Spoiler: joqiza

My second-hardest town read.

I honestly felt like his points against me were fair and our entire discussion in the 380s felt like he was town to me, he seems a reasonable guy, devoted to finding scum, and posts read straightforward and earnest.

Uses lots of evidence in posts, and cites stuff well. My one hesitantion is he does play the I'll come back later game, but he does follow up on promises so not a put-off for me.

I really like how they approach posts 179, 278, and 620

My one fear is he and DkKoba are playing some excellent scum theatre and are good/bad copping all of us, but that's really unlikely. Worth bearing in mind 2 days from now if both live through then, because I have a terrible time thinking about how/why they would otherwise.

Spoiler: Maduisha

Maduisha is my first scumlean of three. She is the closest to null of the lot. Honestly, in the generous reading of her actions I see a mirror to me in a number of ways. Townie, somewhat confused, doesn't want to commit out of fear of being wrong, and then breaking down and being emotional under pressure.

But enough scummy posts exist to keep her on scumside.

These: are all wishy-washy, uncommitted, posts of the type that have gotten me into trouble. Personally, some feel more ok than others. But a couple, like the sliding of midwaybear way back and forth, seem much closer to "let's keep plausible outs" than most of my own content.

Alright, I've reread and I'm ready to play. I'm still getting used to the new interface here, so going to apologize in advance for badly formatted posts.

I usually hardpush one player at a time, but tbh this game seems a bit slower-paced than what I'm used to, so I'm gonna try to get a couple balls rolling at once.

First, I don't think clemency scumslipped. I followed the logic, but it's a huge reach. I often address players who's alignment I'm not sure of as though they are town, I just intuitively like giving people the benefit of the doubt. In general, I'm hesitant to try to determine someone's alignment based on individual lines. This is a lesson I've learned recently, but these sorts of "slips" don't end up being as alignment-indicative as I used to think, and I'm trying to move towards more holistic assessments of players and slots. With that in mind, I actually think clemency is pretty towny based on the opening pages. Rn I wanna hear from enomis on that.

The second thing is, the most questionable post I saw on re-read was probably #66 by Maduisha. I’m gonna quote some of the lines from that post:
[referring to a TR on clemency]: “this slot stays null for me as I don't find his content to be alignment indicative, but I'm getting slight town vibes from it and I want to see more”
[referring to a TR on Ydrasse]: “Ydrasse looks town for me. I know it's early to say this, but I get a gut feeling from her posts. Maybe it's because we seem to coincide in opinion about stuff right now and I'm being a bit biased.”
[referring to a TR on DkKoba]: “DkKoba seems to really want to get the game moving, which is a good thing, so I'm townleading him right now too.”
It’s kind of wild to me to have three TR’s on page 3 of a forum game, but more than that I find the way the reads are phrased really questionable. There’s a sort of hedging tone w.r.t. each of the three reads and honestly I’ve just seen lines like this from scum players. The one in Ydrasse in particular, the sort of “hivemind” read has always been really weak to me. Like, someone outed the same general read at the same time as you, so you TR them? Idk just feels ingenuine.

Yeah, I think there's some terminology confusion here, so I'm going to try to explain what I meant in that post. I like to classify people as:

- Null (cannot read yet).
- Town/scum lean (weak read but already feel like I see alignment indicative elements and would like to see more from them).
- Town/scum read (firm read that I feel like I can back with sufficient reasons).
- Lock town/scum (when my mind is set on someone's alignment for the rest of the game).

These are terms I used in previous games, and I learned them from other players using them as well.

When you said it's wild to townread 3 players so soon, I'm assuming you understood from it that I firmly believe they are town already. That is not the case, what I'm saying is that I think they are displaying behavior that lets on on their intentions, although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues. The fact that you called my reads not genuine is bothering me a little bit. The game has barely started, I feel like you should take some time to see more interaction from a slot before saying something like that. But fine, I'll put myself on your shoes and flesh out the reads a bit so you can see where I come from:

Clemancy: I said he's null for me because he hasn't produced content that is AI, but I felt his attitude felt a slight bit towny. I'm not reading him as town, I'm saying that I like his attitude so far.

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

I would also like to address DkKoba's concern about me, but it's a bit difficult considering he voted me and then said his reasons were the same as yours, so I hope this answers reaches both of you. If anyone has questions, I'll happily answer, because I want to be transparent with my way of thinking so we can all be on the same page.

I hope that clarifies some of my thought process.

I'm rereading page 5, but the push of Enomis still feels a little... empty... even if it comes from slots I'm more confident about.

I'm slightly liking that he's pissed at DK for his attitude, even. I feel like town are more likely to display negative emotions like frustration and such.

Not really, the only scummy behaviors I've seen are pretty weak.

One would be DK being like "I want to build a town block" but nah, the rest of his content feels towny. The other would be Midway being a bit evasive. He's going to talk when he sees this, so that's the best direction to get some more content to work with, I feel. I think that will also bring some more Apogee content because he's watching Midway, so that's interesting because his slot is pretty null to me right now.

What about you? Enomis/Midway scum leans? Do you have anything else in mind?

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

I did elaborate on Ydrasse and DK already when the new guy voted me, here in case you didn't read:

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

Add to those reads that Enomis vs DK looks town vs town because of evident frustration that doesn't look fake to me.

Midway I don't know what to think about, I called him out for doing something scummy and not only did he admit to it, but kept doing it more afterwards. So on one hand I don't think scum is so blatant, but at the same time doing that after being called out about it is kind of WIFOM and could be done on purpose. I'm trying my best not to hard tunnel based on WIFOM because I single handledly lost my last game due to paranoia, so I'm trying to see what serious content can his slot produce before jumping the gun.

hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.

however.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha

i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)

i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.

The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.

I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.

@Maduisha:

For me, it depends on how the emotions is showed.
1) I could get his frustration of the questions which feel like repeating and what he thinks I am nitpicking. But this could come from town or scum.
2) But I am actually not nitpicking and those are legit arguments in my eyes. I wanted to know his thought process and he just waved them away.
3) Furthermore, there is actually a chance that those emotions could be faked and he is just using this to try act out this emotion outbreak to distract town and use this to wave away my argument.
(This is one tactic that scum sometimes use, just repeat saying that your arguments are rubbish.)

All could be possible. Thus, I find no reason to read those emotions. as town. Nor scum.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you are town koba and you think that people is nit picking, what would you do? If you are scum koba would you do the same thing?


-----------------------------------------------
2) For people on bear wagon, do you think the post i quoted is scum bear? I think we should push other slots instead.

Basically, you are describing wifom and saying you can't trust emotions to be a towntell. I can't deny the potential of it being strategically used as a scum defense to be seen more as town, but I do feel it's a towntell in their case because DK has displayed behavior I read as town, so I would say this emotional read enhances the towny feeling rather than it defines it for me. I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Of course, if you didn't feel their previous behavior to be towny, then you can't read it the same way I do, so that answers the question I asked before. As I can see we're not in the same page about that slot, can you tell me what vibes are you getting from DK? (Brushing the emotion part aside, the rest of content).

As for the question you posed for Midway pushers: I feel you in the sense that that post and some others don't feel scummy to me, but I have a perception tone with his slot and I'm torn. I see both scummy actions and town behavior, so I'm confused about his motivations. Putting myself in his shoes, the post you linked makes sense both as town!Midway and scum!Midway that encounters DK again and wants them to feel their alignment is town. You get what I mean, right? I'm a fan of taking the most simple solution whenever I'm torn like this and that would be that he's actually town and I'm getting hung up on behavior I personally don't like that isn't necessarily scummy, but at the same time he keeps doing things that feel confusing and give me vibes of both alignments. I'm trying to interact with other slots too, but can you blame me for trying to get a better read of the slot that itches me the most?

Also, take this as you will, but I feel many of these posts fit into a formulaic pattern of a -> scum, b -> town, c -> more info that I think some one else commented on? Not sure who/where.

However, there are still posts that I feel sympathy for: 357 might be phrased badly, but I think the sentiment is something I have expressed: having wagons as someone who is non-committal gives you good material to work with. 472 with DkKoba having a recollection of facts that tilts towards one side.

Not a n1 lynch, but one to keep an eye on, pressure, and keep wagons circled about.

Spoiler: midwaybear

Null. Confusing. My main mafia pick for almost the entire game, mostly off of coasting, some scummy behavoir early, and just strange takes. And then a switch flicks and I see real if not inspired content. It's defending me, which is a strange first major effort from him, but I'll take it? Honestly his defense dug me a deeper hole (as now I come back to a scumpair wagon as opposed to DkKoba pressuring me) but it's either some perpendicular brain scum move or a townie who sympathizes and feels confident about something at last. Would not put the votato/midwaybear ultimate meme wagon completly out of the picture, but it would be some seriously nice theater if it is.

Posts for initial scumlean:
83, 139 leading into 171 is a minimal effort, coasting by kind of move. 225 followed by posting the reads just after is weird.
From 350-400 is pretty scummy behavoir. Not too much detail, few halfhearted reads, lots of reaction posting mixed in.

Posts I don't know how to take:
188, 209. I've done similar, but this is so blunt and so... ugh
332 and 334
Posts that make me think town:
216 this makes me feel his more recent pocket remarks are in good faith if not necessarily correct.
The exchange around 264 in retrospect is a lot more believable as town
546 shows his votato push is not out of the blue to defend me, and reads like he almost has a single coherent line of argument. His later votato push is uninspired.

Midwaybear is by far the hardest for me to write. I feel like practically anything, from hard townlean to full bus to something close to what I do will set votato and DkKoba onto me for being his scumpartner. So, I wrote this as honestly as I could, but I didn't put the most time into it, which I reserved for my scumreads. I'll engage more with how we may or may not be scumpartners in a different time, hopefully with someone who has honestly read into my actual arguments as opposed to omgscumpartner-ing anything I say about them. Regardless of my personal opinion, is not a terrible lynch, and if they flip scum I guess I'm in the hot seat but eh, it would be worth it for town at that point.

Spoiler: Quick/Clemency

Scumread. This one is going to have to change around a little bit, because I was going to look through some of Clemency's meta-behavior (post-patterns, voting, etc) which I thought was exceedingly suspicious. With the replacement, it suggests much of it was possibly for outside of the game reasons, but here goes what logic I think still holds:

Massive wall of quotes and text.

statistically speaking everyone is town until proven otherwise

UNVOTE:
i think other slots are higher priority to push rn
i'd pick one if i wasnt walking home atm

i dont
i'd simply rather push a newbie slot than an SE since they're more likely to slip up or let on more than they should

i prefer taking the path of least resistance

Here are the first three, where we start to get an idea of Clemency. The stat quip could be innocent, but is also unusual to pull out on pg 1. 30 and 33 combine to show him wanting to take an easy path. I get the newbie logic to a small degree, but, like I have said for quite a while, and taking much heat on it, his withdrawl from the first wagon does not read right, and this explaination does not help. I'll get back to this with a hypothetical later.

i think it doesnt have enough merit to warrant an answer and frankly it hurts my feelings

i am so bad with my alts

you could do that with literally any type of post
step 1: ask question
step 2: get answer
step 3: jeepers guys, this is bad
step 4: rake in the misdirection

Here is our next taste of Clemency. Three major deflections. I'm going to assume that intentionally altslipping as a distraction would be against some rule? But it implies a callous disregard nonetheless that I think townies might be more careful with. 45 feels like it undermines any sense of progress we were starting to see, as DkKoba and Enomis both relied on the question structure to generate content at the time. Why de-legitimize the top two content makers?

eh, im gonna blatantly backpedal by admitting i was trying a different style and it didnt suit me

oh that part was honest

Huh? Then which part was made up.

when i started going after dkkoba

I hate the idea of too scummy for scum in most regards, and the blatent backpetal feels like an attempt at it. The exact mechanics of where the "different style" begins and ends are unclear, and it feels like a great excuse to take refuge in audacity.

i feel a bit bad
i promise 30+ posts over the course of next day kk love you bye

Another guy that makes fake promises of rereading and acts blatant about it. Hi, Clemency.

Why does this game have to be wifom fest.

P-edit: Oh, come on!

i said i'd read, not that i'd reread :p

Low effort? Skating around? Popping in just to try to dissuade mafia votes at the moment? Check check check, I feel like this kinda behavior got a lot of other people (including me) hammered and it slipped past on him more.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

noticed one question so i'll answer it:
1. its not really my mo, i just sway from low to high effort and it tends to be laser focused on individual games
2. i try to fluff and mess around less on newbie games since i cant rely on my reputation and i dont wanna ruin new player experiences

@mod can i have a pt to write down notes
keeping track of things is a major pain on mobile for me

Oh boy this is kind of a smoking gun if you think about it. "Fluffs less" on newbie games -> indirectly fluffs (not perhaps in the vein of midway but through skating, weak posting, hopping in and out). Swaying from low to high effort hasn't happened. Seems low effort overall. "Laser focused on individual games" I don't know how to take, sounds like he might be referencing having other games to focus on right then? That could be the case and in that case the low effort is midly less suspicious, but again feels like there are only so many excuses he can pump out before it just becomes cover.

just gonna put some things from my reread here from time to time
@all of page 2
i cant assume dkkoba's level of experience but this feels like the play of a bold player finding themselves in a scum role and trying to latch onto percieved weakness rather than attempting a genuine push

combined with giving out random, shallow towncred here and there seems like a way to look like you dont know who town is, and are trying to assess people with gold stars and frowny faces
it feels like someone who has taken the position of town and feels concerned with looking the part

@page 3
im gonna treat everything after page 2 as a totally intentional reaction test to dkkoba and pretend im not just incompetent
#50 literally contains an attempt to shade me and a denial that he's trying to shade me simultaneously
#52 can then be attributed to trying to maintain a look of "i'm town because i ask questions from everyone"
please stop me if i turn into confbias city because i have a bad habit of tunneling

scum typically try to start townblocks
starting one this early is high risk high reward

bless

@#59 either its a site by site meta thing or you're trying to make it seem like it is
scum trying to form townblocks can be a good way to secure your position in a game if you arent too blatant about it
#61 backpedal but also throwing in that you're "totally forming townreads already"
scum are pretty eager to townread considering its the main information they have as their advantage
@65 either you believe it was a scumslip or you dont, if you're so unsure about it why even let it weigh in?
i also dont really understand the confusion on the rest of the page about my backpedal
my attack _at the time_ on dkkoba was forced, out of a need to feel aggressive
i admitted it and then retracted it

Ok, real effort, maybe we are coming around to something.

at the same time as im writing all this it does feel more and more like im heavily confbiasing and tunneling up a storm
a friend told me that the worst thing town players do is take a post and argue that "x,y,z are scum indicative" and they never look at the post again to see if "a,b,c are town indicative"
im gonna do the rest of my reading a bit quieter, see if something really pings me and wait for more input before i decide to continue with this argument

okay i think im ready to come around on a dkkoba townread here actually
im looking at my own argument and keep finding holes in it

Nope! It all disappears. I'll be the first to defend hedging and some backtracking, if only because it might be neccesary so I don't get mislynched, but this feels like such an obvious "lets throw out a real read, and then backtrack!" to show he was giving effort, but also keeps him free from consequences. Clemency had shaded DkKoba earlier so I guess it makes sense he was focusing him hear, but the backtrack felt forced, like he didn't wait for any scrutiny. It's like a hedge by revocation. Oh! And cycle man shows back up, either as another distraction, or undermining the idea he was now focused on the game. Either way, suggests non-townie behavior.

Now, remember the first page vote by clemency I've talked about quite a bit? Here's a take I think is consistent with his actions. He knew he would be approaching scum trying to skate by. Being tied up in an early wagon would hurt him, look like he would be trying, might bring too much scrutiny. He dips out, and covers his tracks with a variety of obfuscatory ideas to try to take a little refugee in audacity then slink out of the public eye.

I don't think I can in good concious recommend a Quick lynch tonight with the info we have. The votato vote, regardless of how sus votato is (and he is), seems premature or an attempt on something related to midway or I, but I think the spot has to be watched closely going forward. Again, this could be overthought, stemming from paranoia related to Clemency's posting habits which stem from out of game issues, but I think there has been a systemic pattern of scummy behaviors that indicate the slot may be scum, and there are very few offsetting town behaviors I can detect.

Spoiler: Votato

Oh boy. Started writing here sure that they would be one of my two main scumreads. Now, I think they have have to be third scum, almost null (pretty close to midway and enomis), because there is a lot of good content that I missed either overnight or by not focusing on them when they posted it. This is by far the slot that can swing the most with any given post. They have made a number of well, lies or major misrepresentations lately, but their early content is good as best I can tell. A couple of contradictions are what I'm playing with as my reason for scumlean.
Another wall of quotes!

155, 157 and 199 are a reasonable first push and effort. This suggests a motivated player, and I'll townlean him on this early exchange

i think scum are apogee and maduisha

you two are the scumpair. its obvious from your posts, your interactions, and your thoughts about other people.

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Again, I have no problem with the content. It could be the case that they picked an easy conversation starter as a mafia for towncred, but I feel that could only be determined with hindsight.

sorta. i explained that already. I think DK is fairly easy to read when under pressure. So I turned up the heat. I wasnt planning on making up scumreads all game, but the thread is completely dead, and apathy is really bad for towns, so I want to keep people active, emotional, and engaged.

Mild towncred point attempt, could be innocent or not.

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Yeah I kinda figured this was a reaction test but I hoped it would generate a few other responses.

I'll elaborate on Ydrasse. Tbh their approach honestly seems kinda like how I try to approach town right now? A little hesitancy to jump forward too hard on any wagon, a mix of questions and reactions, and feels pretty genuine. Seems like Ydrasse sincerely wants content and a measured analysis of it. To the extent I have hesitance, it would be her not seeming to commit to particular ideas super hard, but that applies to me and quite a few other people.

DkKoba I'm not super leaning either way. I agree with Maduisha that he felt more frustrated than anything the last few pages, but I'm less convinced that's necessarily tvt then she is.

Midway I've commented on quite a few times, and I want to reserve further judgement until they post the analysis they promised. I'm hesitant with the fluffposting they have done, but I guess that's not necessarily scummy, although in a vacuum I normally would think it is (other people might have their own experience -- this is my first online game so I'm not super familiar with how much of that is to be expected).

p-edit: a bunch happened while I typed this. I'll look over all of it and post thoughts in a bit

generally id say hesitancy to join a wagon seems more like scum wanting to see which way the wind is blowing before committing. I see the town motivation too since its a newbie game, but I think this game currently suffers from insufficient confidence and aggression from most people (and too much from myself and DkK).

oh, and please call me either he, she, or it. not they.

Interesting that here and in another post there is a mild shade of Ydrasse, I'm not entirely sure how to take that but it stood out.

Hm... I want to unvote because the attitude is good and I'm seeing honesty, but on the other side that readlist reveal makes no sense...

Midway, do you think you can you sell me your Clemency/Votato wagons? Can you expand on the reason for your reads on them or are they just gutpings for now? It's okay if you have nothing.

I feel so damn lost in this game.

VOTE: maduisha this game deserves a good counter-wagon. the people need it. You've picked up on a tiny thing midway did and view it as scum, when it seems like it should pretty clearly be NAI. Your expressions of self-doubt read to me like scum trying to hedge so they can backtrack later.

why is eagerness to get lynched anti-town? i dont think she said shes eager to get lynched. she said shes eager to get wagoned. and getting lynched is not in either alignment's wincon

at this point lots of people seem to think that theres scum in clemency or maduisha. but there arent major wagons on either one. If you really believe something, vote it.

also, im honored to be thought so highly of in the meme. I am indeed scum.

I'm mildly concerned with this exchange, but I can't argue indivual points. I guess the caveat on how Madiusha might not really be mafia in 362 is sensible, because I like when players don't go to far during pushes and moderate to only solid points, but 426 feels like he disassociates too much.

i revived this game from the dead by starting some pressure on some people. Yeah, it was bullshit pressure, but look at all the stuff thats happening. I am also providing reads, asking probing questions, and doing some pretty effective shitposting.

This really seems a towncred post. Not sure what the motivation for town-votato to say this is. I'll admit it could be innocent as votato has faced a lot of pressure the entire time.

Yeah most of those reads are so wishy washy that they hardly count. You aren't doing much to analyze what people said and come to conclusions. And my unvote wasn't intended to reduce pressure from the wagon, just stress from the possibility of a lol hammer. VOTE: maduisha

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

my lynchpool for today is: votato, midway, datisi, maduisha, cle men cy/cy cle men, enomis. thats a really big lynchpool. theyre some not so strong reads. midway im sorta 50-50 on, but he needs to step it up. i could maybe be persuaded about apogee. well i guess i could be persuaded about anyone, in theory.

'

I was really sure this was were the big contradiction was, but I'm less sure. The pivot hard onto two of the 50/50 people he mentions concerns me, although tbh that might just be because I am one.

oh youre right. we got what we were gonna get out of the maduisha wagon at this stage. everyone should get off that wagon for now. i dont buy maduisha as town at all, but theres too much time left in d1 here to lynch yet.

So again, are we locked scumpair or is maduisha a town? Feels like you are going for the best of two wagons.

Spoiler: Ydrasse

Town read.
And to finish it off, the easiest one of the bunch. Good content, cites posts, pushes without tunneling, all around reasonable, sounds genuine. If anyone actually contests this I'll provide specific examples. If scum, trouble inbound. Please don't argue this is me not putting effort into citing, I'm tired after writing this and want an easy one to do.

Spoiler: Tentative ranking from town lock down

Apogee (to me of course, I don't expect anyone else to have me this high)
Ydrasse
Joquiza
DkKoba
Enomis/Midway
Votato*
Maduisha
Clemency/Quick*

Asterisks are the slots I see moving around the most in the next day or two. Votato especially, I feel a more straightforward conversation might help both of us understand the other better.

I really hope this helps assuage some of anyone's worries. I don't expect to be townlocked, but I don't think I should be an early lynch either. I'm rereading this before posting and think I'm probably still hedging too much. I honestly see the best in a lot of behaviors, and went for scumleans on people I felt were questionable. Clemency did end up as my most scumread because I had the hardest time finding townie content by him, but quick is a new variable so even that is hedged now.

Alright. This is a lot of content and hopefully excuses how long it took. I'll hit a few comments that have popped up in the chat before I post this and then do a question sweep later, but I'm kinda wiped and probably won't do any super deep analysis again until tomorrow morning.

[Apogee]

This is what I have been doing. And eating dinner while it sits on my homepage

[Apogee]

also apogee just a forewarning, since you called me scum, make sure your argument doesnt include "agressive" as a "scumtell"

I didn't! I like your aggresive behavoir, and your attitude and behavoir generally. It's your actions that give me pause, as I outline above. I still have you as one of my closest to town reads, but I think you've been a little unreasonable.

apogee busy writing up and drafting their post in scum PT

apogee once again forgetting to follow up

Case in point. I was writing a quite long post, and enjoying family dinner. I didn't accuse you and votato of dipping into scum PT to strategize for the 15 minutes after I posted my first response (which was mostly ignored) despite you all posting quite frequently on both sides of it, and it theoretically being a sensible action. (Just to be clear I am NOT scumpairing you just using the first situation recently that fit.

i will say though that this is the sort of content we wanted, even if the reasoning is tilted

Fair enough! I hope my long post above helps you out even if you still think I'm scum.

Official Vote Count 1.14

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

Apogee

(2): DkKoba, votato

DkKoba

(1): enomis

Quick

(1): Apogee

votato

(1): midwaybear

midwaybear

(1): Ydrasse

Not Voting

(3): Quick, Maduisha, joqiza

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

[/area]

How am i tunneling you currently if my vote isnt on you? I have pushed multiple people. You're paranoid about my pushes. I'm concerned the scumteam is you+ apogee because logically it fits. I know votato has been a little weirdo this game but evidence overwhelmingly points at you and apogee. Your reaction to the wagon on apogee is bad

Look, I'll reiterate this again. It seems you and votato locked me into a scumteam with midway

before I posted anything in defense of your initial wagon

. This has left me in a strange position. Half the evidence against me seems to come from midway defending me while I was offline.

it's dangerous to lock town, but he is my most solid townread besides you

FFS WHY.

OK yeah seriously FFS are DkKoba and I your townlocks? Ydrasse? Joquiza? IDK mate this makes me wonder if you have ulterior motives here.

p-edit: Ydrasse? Hot take no one took besides votato briefly. Care to clarify?

[Apogee]

for the record, i accused maduisha and apogee in post 229. the game started 3 and a half days before that, and there were 9 full pages of content. in ~52 hours since then there are 20 full pages of content. sounds like things got more lively. im not sure why thats such a big deal, but there you have it.

Votato, you've actually become closer and closer to a null lean town for me even if I think some of your reasoning recently is mediocre and/or suspect. I actually agree you have been a good driving force, but you mentioning it 3? times now feels a little like credit seeking. I can see why it is a tempting defense to pull, but it just makes me hesitant.

[Apogee]

I don't get the null read on me but i'll chalk it up to noobiness.

Look, its a null but I have you as the third most town, mostly because I was feeling defensive and I was concerned by how confident you dropped some reads as being. Specifically, the thing I went back and saw as most concerning was when you were voting Maduisha, accusing enomis and then either midway or votato as being enomis's scumpartner all pretty much at the same time. I may have missed some context there but that felt a little too confident, and a little carefree almost in slinging accusations.

[Apogee]

reading ur other reads apogee ur associating NAI behavior as scum/town behavior and thats classic noob mistake.

Mind elaborating? I'm aware of NAI in concept, so any advice or even indication where you think I've gone wrong would be useful.

[Apogee]

I am not sure why Apogee immediately reciprocated midwaybear’s TR only to then walk it back—I think that was another questionable thing that has happened, but I really don’t think it reads at all like a midwaybear/Apogee scumteam, I think that’s kind of wild frankly and if anything it is a pocket of one player to another. I really don’t know where the scumteam read comes from as I very rarely have seen scum defend each other so blatantly at this stage of the game.

I'll talk about this because I feel like it's come up a few times. I allude to my reasoning earlier in posts 613, 674, and parts of 734.

In short, in the time between post 539 and when I return with a post in 579, I've been practically locked into a scumpair with midwaybear. See votato's response to some but far from all of my initial points in 585. "The strange way you guys interact." I had just got back, and had not interacted with midway's defense of me. Sure, I guess it's possible you could call some of our interactions around my earlier vote on him strange (but Votato cites none of these). It seemed to me the logic was midway defending me -> we are scumpair -> I am scum. I felt to stop this, I had to argue at least mildly in defense of midway. And to be honest, I don't think any of my defenses of him were indicative of an immediate TR. Maybe my later insinuations of null were a bit of a walk-back, but I think I laid my reasoning out pretty well for those.

Spoiler: My posts defending midway

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

I have absolutely no clue why we are a likely scumpair.

That’s terrible logic on so many levels unless we are the most straightforwardly scummy pair of all time

why are you intent on diffusing everything midway.

As your buddy (I use this straightforwardly not in a scumbuddy sense) Joquiza explained and critiqued me over yesterday, town have an obligation to diffuse what they see as tvt. Also, you and votato both latch onto the first posts I made, which with hindsight I agree could be seen as scummy. But midways point is that they are not inconsistent with the explanation I offered and defended to at least joquizas initial satisfaction around post 380.

P-edit: votato your vote is on me not madiusha...

We literally are on different wagons ...

How can votato both have gotten everything he wanted out of the madiusha wagon in seeing scumhood and be singlemindedly pushing midway and I as the scumpair?

Speak for yourself on townblock I have you as null.

Albeit with the caveat that if you do a few more of the ISO’s similar to what you did on me that can change.

wdym
i believe apogee is town and I think he believes that I am too
that is a townblock I think unless my definition is wrong
how would that imply that I am being coached? I don't need a coach anyways lol

pedit: rip whatever

he thought you were scummy as of 391. which then transferred into an "idk" which then is... this mess where he seems weirdly determined to validate your content ([post]586[/post).

@apogee: you're voting clemency's slot, so i'm presuming you scumread them. who else do you scumread at this point, and who do you think is scum alongside them?
furthermore, do you still think midway is as scummy as you did earlier?

In short yes, clemency is one of my scumreads. The others are madiusha and votato. Clemency is the one I chose to vote because pressure was the only thing that got them to post earlier.

I have been trending null on midway, and honestly need to see them interact in a situation I am not deeply involved in to be sure. I’ve obviously had a positive emotional reaction to their support here, but if i try to push that aside I’m still deeply uncertain.

What I will say is one of the reasons I’ve defended them to an extent is I’ve almost been forced to by the scumpair read on us literally before I had any posts at all about the situation and where any interaction between us has been used as justification for us being scumpair

Note most of these are more challenging the notion of scumpair. I'll specifically address 586 because it's probably the closest I get to outright calling midway town, and because Ydrasse felt I was "weirdly" trying to validate midway's content. To be clear, I meant 586 primarily to push back on the wagons insistence that midway defending me was absolutely a sign we were scumpair. I can't exactly say why midway decided to make a real push for the first time in my defense. It could be a pocket attempt (midway loves to accuse others of trying to pocket/sheep, projection?), it could be a real effort by a townie to stop tvt which is what I suggested in 586 (I believe midway reads DkKoba as town as recently of a few pages ago at least?). That's why I have said the biggest thing to watch with midway going forward is where or if they apply more effort, and deeper (even if you call it flawed) analysis.

p-edit: midway versus votato hurts my head
p-edit1.5: vote still on quick/clemency because one major reason I went clemency originally was feeling there was just no good townie content from him, and quick so far hasn't produced much either. I understand there is catching up to do but even his interaction with votato and midway is somewhere between halfhearted and intentionally messing with people.

[Apogee]

My memory is wrong abt when you started the nitpickiness but the behavior before that is no better. Your ISO is real ugly sis and I've only digested half of it. longpost incoming abt why Quick is likely scum based on their behavior.

I'll look forward to that because I've had the slot as scum for some time and while quick's behavior has been hard for me to grok I've not felt better about them at all.

[Apogee]

i wish i could be inside midway's head i want to do science experiments on his brain

This literally applies to so many people on this thread (albeit to different extents)

[Apogee]

Yeah please don't hammer

[Apogee]

Based on quick's current contributions or lack thereof, yes I believe quick is more likely to be scum. I'd have to dig down onto their interactions, but I haven't noticed anything suggesting they are scumpair.

Still feels like Enomis is skating by, and if he doesn't do more soon I'll continue to grow more suspicious. I haven't had as much of an initial scumread on him as some, but I understand the points that Joquiza and you have made and considered moving onto that wagon until the wagon on quick picked back up, not because I'm scumreading enomis over votato, but I feel a wagon on him would be more useful.

[Apogee]

why am I am this deep in and have yet to see a good line I'm concerned.

i'm shocked how much shit content quick has and I'm not even done yet. I'm TRYING to find something good even and I don't see anything really.

Conclusion is you were less showing nitpicky behavior than i thought but theres a ton of fillery content. active lurker alert. most of your interactions with people however are questions that are just deflecting.

Narrowing that down to three lines: these are more or less the reasons I'm on the quick wagon as I've indicated. I found Clemency's behavoir indicative of a scumslot. This feeling continues through all of Quick's posts.

I'm probably off to sleep some lets not hammer anyone overnight yeah?

[Apogee]

why? Elaborate. Why don't you think quick is worth a wagon? Enomis quick scumpair anyone?

I gut townread him. Which is better than you. No scum pair. But i think joqiza is scummy which i have said one page before. Also DkKoba minor scumread.

Enomis to clarify: do you townread the slot (rolling over from Clemency), quick's current behavoir, or both?

[Apogee]

enomis having a static readlist tho is just straight up anti town.

cant be any more static than midway or maduisha, and quick's is very inorganic. the problem is there are four very anti-town players atm. But midway is probably still town.

Clarify which 4? Looking at your ISO it seems you could be suggesting any/all of:
midway
Maduisha
Enomis
Quick
Me (Apogee)

Also, can you clarify how your readlist has updated overall from 878 and 889? It seems to me you are more scummish on quick and enomis and less on midway? Can you especially clarify with regards to midway to be blunt reading the two of you interacting hurts my head.

[Apogee]

Also quick you've kind of been implying you have some kind of plan for a few posts now if you actually do its time to tell us the results

[Apogee]

Spoiler: Earlier Votato Quotes

enomis having a static readlist tho is just straight up anti town.

cant be any more static than midway or maduisha, and quick's is very inorganic. the problem is there are four very anti-town players atm. But midway is probably still town.

Clarify which 4? Looking at your ISO it seems you could be suggesting any/all of:
midway
Maduisha
Enomis
Quick
Me (Apogee)

Also, can you clarify how your readlist has updated overall from 878 and 889? It seems to me you are more scummish on quick and enomis and less on midway? Can you especially clarify with regards to midway to be blunt reading the two of you interacting hurts my head.

yeah. midways posts have not improved. but if hes scum this is not just bad play, but i dont think anyone could be that bad. like i said, anti-town play generally comes from town. so although i dont think his reads are any good, i think he's probably town.

as for you your posts have improved, although theyre infrequent. ive eliminated you mostly by PoE, but you could still maybe be scum. I'm liking enomis as scum too. Maduisha reads a lot like midway to me: more like noob town than anything, but there is more potential for opportunism with maduisha, so thats scummier to me. My current solve is Quick and enomis, with maduisha as the third option.

I'm hesitant on thinking Quick and Enomis are scumpair because of the Enomis/Clemency interactions early on, which to me don't read as scum theatre. Do you think it could have been? I'll agree both are not bad to have on your PoE however.

[Apogee]

BTW, I am dead if votato claims VT? or no?

I don't follow?

[Apogee]

Midway explain why you have cleared quick

[Apogee]

Yeah awkward d1 hammers are not townie

[Apogee]

Votato did you see my post 1337? I'm not sure if Quick/Enomis can be scumpair even if they are both individually scummy

[Apogee]

WHY???

[Apogee]

Votato did you see my post 1337? I'm not sure if Quick/Enomis can be scumpair even if they are both individually scummy

what do you think makes it not scum theater? they start from post 1 arguing about something silly that is exceptionally unlikely to get either one lynched. sounds like plausible distancing to me. i think at this point its not worth speculating about. preflip you lynch based on scumminess, not associations.

Fair enough on the last point, and not arguing that. Just want to make sure you don't tunnel them as a pair necessarily because I think thats dangerous. We can hold this conversation until after flip then.

[Apogee]

WHY???

this post is towny, but as votato says "one post does not a townie make"

Just answer why you want the in-your-own words questionable quick to hammer on d1.

[Apogee]

Happy Birthday!

[Apogee]

to those who just posted and arent commenting on quick: what is it that makes you still townread there?

quick is null for me, leaning scum; however, their style/posting admittedly makes it hard for me to read them since it's not... conventional? at least to what i've seen. so i don't feel comfortable stating for sure that i think they're scum For Sure when i'm having trouble sorting them.

like, i don't think quick's iso is literally every single post is bad, ever; i used dkkoba's post by post analysis to skim through a lot of quick's iso and i think to some degree they're reading to confirm their own suspicions rather than like... actually sieving out what might be Okay and what is Bad. which has already been said, granted, but i think merits a bit of note.

however, i will say that quick's latest posts are definitely not great compared to how he started out when he subbed in, for sure.

Ydrasse something DkKoba and I have both expressed is that we cannot really point to many posts by Quick and and say "oh, that is a towny post." Do you see anything that indicates them being a town? I'll agree the style does make it difficult, but over what, 150+ posts how often can you say what he posts is town?

[Apogee]

to those who just posted and arent commenting on quick: what is it that makes you still townread there?

quick is null for me, leaning scum; however, their style/posting admittedly makes it hard for me to read them since it's not... conventional? at least to what i've seen. so i don't feel comfortable stating for sure that i think they're scum For Sure when i'm having trouble sorting them.

like, i don't think quick's iso is literally every single post is bad, ever; i used dkkoba's post by post analysis to skim through a lot of quick's iso and i think to some degree they're reading to confirm their own suspicions rather than like... actually sieving out what might be Okay and what is Bad. which has already been said, granted, but i think merits a bit of note.

however, i will say that quick's latest posts are definitely not great compared to how he started out when he subbed in, for sure.

You were the Townie I was talking about BTW. Did you catch that or no?

In 942?

[Apogee]

So midway do you think the scumteam is Votato and Quick then?

[Apogee]

[quote="In
if so a bit more pressure should reveal that. i was wondering that too for a long time, but i really dont think so based on recent posts. He's flailing around voting and giving poor reasoning and changing his mind 180 degrees repeatedly. I'm not sure that we should lynch, but im pretty damn sure we should force a claim or at least a proper defense.

Votato if you keep stealing reasoning from my mouth I might end up forgetting I ever scumread you (ofc depending on flips and stuff this is partially in jest but yeah this is a good post and exactly what I feel right now)

[Apogee]

Again, lets not hammer until most people have gotten a chance to comment on intent to hammer

[Apogee]

Again, lets not hammer until most people have gotten a chance to comment on intent to hammer

[Apogee]

Huh idk why that double posted sorry

[Apogee]

Then why did you intent to hammer? I thought that was like a big final declaration?

p-edit: I could be in theory I suppose

[Apogee]

Yeah I do want to see what the other 4 make of all of this. But it seems as if time zone differences have called.

[Apogee]

TBH I'm almost sure the townlock stuff is midway playing at some meta-strat.

I just have no idea what it is or why he is doing it

[Apogee]

You are basically Townie or Scum.

GLHF

RIP I really wanted a Jester, Serial Killer, Survivor, Lyncher and Cultist in this game I'm sad he can't be any of those.

But seriously what does this post remotely do?

[Apogee]

You are basically Townie or Scum.

GLHF

RIP I really wanted a Jester, Serial Killer, Survivor, Lyncher and Cultist in this game I'm sad he can't be any of those.

But seriously what does this post remotely do?

I can't type v for some reason without it getting all goofy, so I said Townie instead meaning Villager/VT.

Ah I see that at least makes some sense

[Apogee]

Well it looks like the Quick wagon has collapsed and I don't really know why -- I still think they have been scummier than enomis.

I'd like the wagons to shift back to Quick, so I am keeping my vote there for now, but otherwise consider this post my intent to vote Enomis over votato.

For all of you on the votato wagon: take a look. I don't think anyone on that wagon doesn't have someone else on that wagon in their scumpool -- some of you are most likekly being played. Votato has some scummy behavoir, but I agree with DkKoba above in that they have done some useful work and Votato is not an optimal lynch right now imo either.

p-edit: DkKoba I buy that interaction but I'm still not sure Clemency/Enomis early on was indicative of a scumpair. I think that may just be more of a reason to vote Quick, because even if Enomis isn't scum thats still a scummy move by him.

[Apogee]

Maduisha and Enomis if you ever see this: what is your opinion on a Quick lynch?

DkKoba and Ydrasse both read Quick as scum, so they might switch and then that is 4 people. I feel one of Maduisha, Enomis or Joqiza could be sold the quick lynch

[Apogee]

This is like the quietest day there is.

Joqiza, Enomis and Ydrasse all haven't posted for quite some time. Have any of you gotten a chance to read the thread and if so do you have opinions?

[Apogee]

So yall wanna wagon quick with me?

[Apogee]

Its not

[Apogee]

No, you made a claim and then suggested why he wasn't lynched.

Nothing you mentioned suggested why that claim was accurate

[Apogee]

no. and its not relevant because im not getting lynched today. there are only four people willing to lynch me today. two of them are almost certainly scum. what does that tell you about the other two?

Yup I made this argument earlier:

Quick, Enomis, Midwaybear, Maduisha

At least two of those people are high in almost everyone's scumreads

[Apogee]

Also Votato I know this is kind of fluffy but I just noticed: did you change your sig to "It is not out ignorance that will kill us, but our arrogance" during this game or has it been that the entire time.

Feels quite relevant to this game right about now...

[Apogee]

Also Votato I know this is kind of fluffy but I just noticed: did you change your sig to "It is not out ignorance that will kill us, but our arrogance" during this game or has it been that the entire time.

Feels quite relevant to this game right about now...

it was during this game but not entirely because of this game. its just a very good quote. hilariously apt right about now though.

Hah nice that's what I thought and yup certainly fitting to this situation.

[Apogee]

Midway you don't have to hammer to be useful

[Apogee]

Votato the only people that aren't on you are me, DkKoba, Ydrasse, Joqiza (well and Quick but we are dealing with that contingency) who though we certainly aren't neccesarily town probably realize that quickhammering you would not be good for our own survival based on opinions we have expressed thus far (as in I don't think any of those 4 consider you scummy enough previously for a quickhammer to not look so far out of character to be an instant scumtell). But I understand the desire lower the chances of quickhammering

[Apogee]

no. and its not relevant because im not getting lynched today. there are only four people willing to lynch me today. two of them are almost certainly scum. what does that tell you about the other two?

Yup I made this argument earlier:

Quick, Enomis, Midwaybear, Maduisha

At least two of those people are high in almost everyone's scumreads

Town can be wrong though. It's D1, keep that in mind.

Yup for sure. But it's what we have to work with on D1

[Apogee]

Maduisha in response to 1858 while I understand your point about there not being pressure on Votato, I do think 1621 is a reasonable response explaining why he was still concerned/doing last word posts. I'm not sure I follow on him setting up both a soft vt and soft pr claim?

[Apogee]

apogee and Dk have said pretty explicitly that they see no merit to my wagon. Dk varies sometimes, so its possible in theory. if anyone else wants to hammer me i ask the same courtesy, but i dont think they will. Ydrasse has also said iirc that he wont lynch me, at least not today.

Yeah to just elaborate on this votato has done some scummy stuff, but I think at this point all of the townie action he has taken has to be weighted higher. I just don't see how he is the even second or third best n1 lynch. Barring the most obvious scumslip of all time, I don't think his wagon deserves to have gone this far d1. And although it's a little early for convoluted wagonomics, just who and how are on him makes me suspicious.

[Apogee]

Look at Votato's ISO with an open mind. There is admittedly a series of scummy posts. But he offers real logic and good, pro-town ideas in enough that I don't think he should be a n1 lynch.

I'm honestly not certain on the next best lynches, but enomis has done some scummy stuff without too much pro-town, so they are probably up next. Honestly I've been so beaten down by the cyclical nature of the last hundreds of posts (i.e. pretty much everything since we started putting these wagons together) that I'm going to have to take a long, careful read of individuals to really tell much.

[Apogee]

VOTE: votato

I honestly need a big refresher on a lot of what has happened, partially because of how a few important posts have been buried in the last thirty pages (guys, this is like the 4th longest newbie game in the last 50 and it is just day 2 jeez). Votato has done scummy actions for a while, and I think my last read on them was too generous on early posts. His post above is another case of votato hopping on a wagon as the second vote for dubious reasons, while trying to look committed kind of regardless of earlier reads. I think more pressure is needed on him.

I do want to delve into the nk and eod voting patterns more, but with the caveat of (like Joqiza said) we won't be able to positively determine who is scum, but I think we can gain some information into what different scenarios are more or less consistant.

[Apogee]

Yeah basic wagonomics say that if votato is scum than one of myself (Apogee), Joqiza, Ydrasse, DkKoba is his scum partner barring a) exceptional scum confidence/discipline or b) a genuine bus attempt (which I don't think would make sense in that situation).

Personally, I think that votato is likely scum, but I have a hard time telling between Joqiza, Ydrasse, DkKoba as a likely partner.

However, I'm not sure why we aren't focusing on votato right now. I'm all for pressuring joqiza if y'all think that it will produce useful reads, slips, tells, whatever, but pretty much all of you who've pressured him say that votato is his likely partner.

[Apogee]

And that is why I am wondering why people aren't going after votato.

Isn't one of the oldest deflection/distancing/scumbuddy save methods in the book going "yes, my scumbuddy is suspicious, but this person is way worse"?

[Apogee]

You were already voting joqiza...

[Apogee]

Oh I see how that could have been confusing -- I wasn't referring to votato/joqiza with that remark

[Apogee]

I feel like votato is copying me..

^^

[Apogee]

Reading up to here, not a ton to say. Still scumreading votato most. Joqiza I'm having a hard time evaluating because I disagree with the initial logic on his wagon (i.e. the unvote and the quick delayed hammer) in part, but I also realize I might not be evaluating those parts the clearest because of bias, and the last page or two his tone has shifted. Not sure the tone shifts are AI though.

Add me to the list of people who intend to go back and do some re-reads shortly.

[Apogee]

Alright I'm kind of wiped out rn so don't expect a ton of deep analysis but here is a handful of joqiza posts that stood out to me. I'll try to do the same thing with other people.

Spoiler: A whole bunch of Joqiza Posts

Actually your point about me voting is probably fair, I honestly just haven't thought about using my vote like that because in the forum games I've played we usually decide on lynches/pushes before throwing votes up. I get it's kind of different here though.

Sorry, was busy earlier, but wanted to write this post before I go to sleep.

I wanna preface that I think that the “pushes for content” are at the point where they are not conducive to town win condition. This is simply because we are at the point where we are forcing multiple players to L-1 and starting to narrow down PRs via claims/softclaims. We’ve already forced a softclaim out of Maduisha which means if she is not scum than mafia have a narrowed list of players to hit for PR. Following that, I’ve gone through and re-evaluated the players that I think are up for the lynch today. You can skip to the end but the tl;dr is that I want enomis lynched and I’m going to push for it from this point on. He is the one player that I am most confident will flip scum, based both on evaluation of his slot as well as PoE. I expand on this below, starting with the current midwaybear wagon:

---

Midwaybear

@Dk I need to talk to you at some point, maybe tomorrow, but I’m not sure I really follow the reason for this lynch, and I don’t really understand the incentive behind running this guy up again if it’s for content because we already had a wagon on him earlier in the day.

I think I mentioned I was having problems reading this guy in the beginning of this game: posts like 188 and 209 I simply have trouble reading for alignment. I’m naturally paranoid of these sorts of “too innocent to be scum” posts due to certain players I’ve played with on my home site. Honestly the majority of midwaybear’s early game is of little to no value and I am just disregarding it.

In order to try to determine midwaybear’s alignment I’ve gone through not only this game but his latest 1997 game, in which he was mafia, linked here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=82731. Side note day 1 of that game was fucking hilarious. What’s really worth noting is that some of midwaybear’s posts in 1997 were truly terrible (he outed read lists a couple times that were genuinely scummy, usually justified with a single vague sentence). The other thing is that as scum he would ask so many damn QUESTIONS. Literally take a look at his ISO and see how many question marks there are:

(below posts are all screenshots from midwaybear 1997 scum game. Look at the lack of conviction in every single post he makes)






Nowhere in the ISO of midwaybear’s 1997 game will you find a post such as 566 or 696, in which midwaybear expresses strong conviction in reads supported with actual, post-cited evidence. Admittedly, in both 566 or 595, I find the bear’s chain of logic somewhat twisted, but I think this may be one of those journey over destination sort of things. Maybe I am looking at it with confirmation bias because 1997 bear is confirmed to me whereas 2003 bear is still an unknown quantity, but every post 1997 bear made leaps off the page as scum, he is basically hardclaiming it to me in every post, his absolute refusal to take any kind of definitive stance in that game is extremely scum-indicative.

I am going to make a rough evaluation of bear as a player and say that he is not radically capable of switching his scum-game up this much between two consecutive games, I think based on Occam’s razor just suggests he is town here. I will hear you out Dk but for now that is my read on midwaybear.

---

Maduisha

There are two players that I’ve scumread throughout the course of the day, but at this present time I don’t feel that either of them would make a good lynch today, these players are Maduisha and Apogee.

On Maduisha, it is difficult to evaluate the slot for me personally, I found the most recent content somewhat upsetting in that I felt I upset her if she does flip town. I do think that her inability to give scumreads is troubling: this is my preferred “thing” to look for when I’m determining alignment, so my best tool in evaluating her is basically taken away from me. Secondly, even if she’s town—and I truly mean no offense by this, it is showing a weakness in identifying mafia which would be obviously problematic going forward.

My hesitation in lynching her today is simply her response to being put at L-1.

One: She essentially put the gun to her forehead and shouted “DO IT” which is generally town-indicative although very frustrating and anti-town in general.

Two: She has essentially hardclaimed vanilla townie in post 492, and furthermore softed it in posts 366, 368, 459—probably others. This consistency in a VT softclaim is simply not what I’d expect from a scum player being racked up to L-1, with intense scrutiny on them, if I were scum there I would probably claim PR there in order to fish, or at least permit myself the flexibility to do so if I thought I might be hammered. Claiming VT is obviously not totally alignment-indicative, but it indicates that if Maduisha is scum she essentially gambited here, as I do think she was in danger of being lynched at that point in time.

---

Apogee

When I outed my initial scumread on post 375 on Apogee, I did not scumread him as strongly as I perhaps tried to indicate during this push—I did find his behavior scummy but I “leaned into it” in a sense in order to try to get a better gauge on him. I do still feel like much of his early game behavior is questionable, but Apogee responded with about as fair an explanation as one could offer: I rate his scum game fairly high if he does indeed flip scum. He stayed very cool under pressure, offered a town-POV explanation for every action he made, made no attempt to “bully” me off my read and even conceded certain points, and lastly I just really like his opening to post 388.

I am not sure why Apogee immediately reciprocated midwaybear’s TR only to then walk it back—I think that was another questionable thing that has happened, but I really don’t think it reads at all like a midwaybear/Apogee scumteam, I think that’s kind of wild frankly and if anything it is a pocket of one player to another. I really don’t know where the scumteam read comes from as I very rarely have seen scum defend each other so blatantly at this stage of the game.

Lastly, Apogee outs a fairly strong readlist on post 730, which is enough to convince me to argue against a lynch of him today. Yes, out of personal preference I would rather have him be taking harder stances on players rather than null/light scumleans, but I also respect the need to be honest to one’s level of read if town, and in general I think his willingness to engage with us and actually make these sorts of posts means we should keep him around. I think after 730, despite certain behavior patterns I find suspicious, I do ultimately townread him or at least townlean him.

Enomis

First thing I’m gonna do is re-hash my initial read on enomis, which remains relatively unchanged.

Enomis

Cites some basic mechanics in their intro post, I consider that NAI given it’s a newbie game. Questions both Apogee and Clemency immediately based on misconstruing their words, interpreting their statements in the most literal way possible, possibly a slight language barrier. Super questionable how they double down both on the scumslip and on pretty much everything DkKoba says, also their TR on Apogee makes absolutely no sense, I rr post #65, dude TRs Apogee because they are “genuinely scumhunting” because they are using the term “wolf” and newb town wouldn’t do that? Dafuq?? On Post #301 has an absolutely garbage teamread on me/Koba which I think he knows he can’t even commit to, let me ask you something, have you EVER seen one scum partner say “my partner is hard town I will never vote them until I die” on DAY 1 of a game where you have TWO mislynches? Answer is no, that is never a scumteam and any experienced player should know that. Remains obsessed with pushing clemency as of #303 for more nai statements after I already clarified why their logic on Clemency’s slip doesn’t make sense, really seems to be working backwards from a “Clemency is scum” which they’ve already decided on, so at best is confirmation bias, at worst is scum-motivated. Analysis: scum read

With enomis I have not gotten the sense that any of his reads are genuine, whether it be scumread OR townread.
Let me quote part of post 65 which is probably one of the most damning IMO:

Publishing my reads so far:

Apogee

- Town Lean. Feels like genuinely scumhunting and using terms like "wolf" which sometimes newb town uses because they are not used to calling scums "mafia".

Clemency

- Scum Lean. For the scumslip and a few other stuff which i don't like.
Also:

statistically speaking everyone is town until proven otherwise

Feels like a convoluted way to explain the slip. I don't know, probably NAI.
Then:

UNVOTE:
i think other slots are higher priority to push rn
i'd pick one if i wasnt walking home atm

But went ahead to post a few posts without pushing anyone.

My vote stays on Clemency until I find someone else scummier.
@Clemency: I would like to see your push on someone else.

I would like to go ahead and add Post 166 to the case file: seems to express intent to have DkKoba lynched despite referring to them in a town which implies they think they are town.

Enomis has avoided engaging me since I entered the game and has basically slipped away from any of my attempts to point out the flaws in his logic. None of his reads make any sense to me, and in the past couple days his content has dried up completely.

The last reason I scumread him is entirely speculative/admittedly a reach, but I think it may possible that enomis is slipping maf knowledge at several points in the game. Post 202 potentially reads as a slip of midwaybear being town, and there is another post I can’t find rn but might look for later where I thought enomis might be slipping Maduisha as town as well.

I have been asking for them to re-evaluate the Clemency slot, and, in general, play the game in a more holistic manner for a long time now, and they are (along with Clemency himself) one of the players who has most steadfastly refused to do so. As a result, I believe that even if I’m wrong and they are town, they are still an adequate lynch today in terms of playing to the larger town win condition, I do not want them going forward to tomorrow or possibly LYLO. I do not trust their logic nor their reads, and I find a lot of their posts insincere. This is the only player at the table that at the moment I can say I genuinely and truly scumread.

TL;DR/Summary

The three lynches I have really considered today are Maduisha/Apogee/enomis, and of those three my strong preference is enomis. This is not a reaction test nor a “push for content,” as of rn my intent is to have enomis in the graveyard unless he comes back and truly drops thunder and makes me re-evaluate. I have learned to keep an open mind about these things but rn the urge to death tunnel within me.

To give some space for discussion/re-evaluation, @enomis, what I would want is a read list, and who you would want lynched if it were not you, and why.

If there is a 4th player I would throw into my above lynchlist, it would be votato, simply because he seems more capable as a player and there are certain red flags which I’ve noticed. That said, if he is scum he is playing fairly well IMO and he was the first person outside of Koba to actually take initiative and try to evaluate my slot, even if the attempt was surface-level, in my personal experience this has been strongly strongly town-indicative.

The rest of the players at the table I don’t really want lynched today for reasons I’m already talked about. To be honest, as of rn I am evaluating every single one of my TRs, but I think this is an inter-day thing, I want enomis lynched and if I am alive on Day 2 then I come back and re-think everything based on the information from his flip.

It’s about 2am my time and I have work tomorrow so I’m probably not going to respond to any questions for awhile, but I should be around a bit for my lunch break and tomorrow evening.

VOTE: Enomis

i don't really know if I want to lynch enomis anymore actually. I didn't get a chance to follow up earlier unfortunately but I would like to at least talk again if we get the chance. I play sort of a self-centered game and it felt like he was purposely avoiding my slot for most of the game, but i can't help feeling like we might just be ships in the night. he felt really genuine in some ways so if he's town i want to give him some more chance to towntell. that goes for all of my sr's really, like i don't think enomis/clemency are the tea despite what people are saying, i feel like if they were there were plenty of opportunities for enomis to let me "talk him out" of his read of clemency, instead of just disappearing. enomis/maduisha still makes a lot of sense in my head, but quick's behavior in the last couple days hsa been really weird and i don't understand why he keeps mentioning PR's unless he is just blatantly trying to fish for roles lol, like i just don't get why town would ever do that. anyway it's for sure that at least one of enomis/maduisha/quick is town so i would rather just give them all a chance to towntell before we hammer anything. idk where enomis is though

as of rn i would probably vote either quick or maduisha at EoD depending on how things go but i'm keeping my vote on enomis because he hasn't even posted since i was last here it looks like

anyway fellas i'm basically gonna hammer quick here in a bit i think my mind's pretty made up at this point. i went thru votato and I think he has some decent contributions today. I really like the push on maduisha starting 337, continuing in 478 and 487, kind of ending with 540 and 587. this push is a lot better and more thorough i feel like then what he was doing previously. now to be fair he did do this AFTER i pointed out why his earlier pushes were kind of weak, so he might've just adapted this game, but in any case he's certainly done more for us than quick has done. i feel like his responses to bear's case in 803 and 804 are decent too btw

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

This is probably one of the worst posts I've seen since I started playing forum mafia so I want to break it down for you line by line.

“so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha” – what is the justification for this analysis? Why is there a scum in the two of us and it can’t be TvT? I’m not even saying I disagree with you but you don’t get to throw out this kind of stuff without any justification

“Leaning towards it being joq” how did you go from being willing to counterwagon maduisha with me to leaning towards it being me? This is a complete 180

“It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill.” and so your conclusion is it was me? Lmao don’t think I missed the missing logical step here which is that “yeah and joq is shit”

“Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing” sure

“. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me.” LMFAO. For the record, the kill should neither kill nor implicate you, it could come from you as scum trying to remove a threat, it could come from scum outside of you trying to frame you, and any evaluation of your slot should use the nightkill as secondary information to your overall body of work this game. Anyone who tries to pivot off the nightkill to justify a position is on my radar rn. Ur making me wish I hammered you

“Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him.” You had four votes on you yesterday

“I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me.” See above

“Actually i think maduisha is on to something here.” you better have a good explanation for this complete 180 on maduisha because last I checked we were on the same page. She is accusing us of being a scumteam btw did you happen to miss that LOL

I can't really speak to why votato chose to keep information close to his chest, but I can explain my side (again). Like I've said, I was never planning to hammer votato yesterday, and I believe I made that explicitly clear in posts 2116 and 2121. I wanted to see how Quick (and anyone else present at the time) would respond to the possibility that I'd hammer votato, based on the material I brought up. I'd held the suspicion for a while that Quick was rationalizing his reads, ever since we engaged in the argument about whether effort is indicative of alignment. He argued against it when I used that reasoning and invalidated my reads, but showed willingness to use the same reasoning to form his own. I wanted to see whether the same behavior pattern would emerge if I brought up certain "slips," which on reading Quick's ISO seemed to be his main explanation for FOSing votato. I maintain that Quick's reaction to the approaching hammer was not towny: it felt like he tried to wriggle his way out of it twice: first on votato, then on DkKoba, and then when I brought up the contradictions in his logic he simply shut down and got salty.

The main case against me seems to be based on two things, as I understand it:
1. I did not vote Maduisha for a period of time Day 1 even though she was one of my scumreads.
2. I tried to make it seem like I was going to hammer votato for a period of time even though this was never my intention.

I will repeat my rebuttals for both points. For (1), I simply am not used to voting ceremoniously in the way that seems to be required by this site. I try to use it to signal intent to lynch, to generate reactions, material, etc. that I think will be helpful for the town if I am gone. And (2) is simply a misreading of my intent, as I've stated. Yes, votato was never in danger of being hammered yesterday, at least not by me. No, this was never an attempt to pull the wool over anyone's eyes today, it was done to generate reactions so I'd know whether I should hammer in between the two or gamble everything on a counterwagon attempt.

The other main point brought up against me today by Ydrasse is my defensiveness. FWIW I can't really change my tone or the way I play, at least not easily. But I do think I'm justified in responding aggressively when the points against me are the same points that I rebut over and over and over again.

I'm not sure what new points votato has added to the conversation, other than accusing me of bringing up old posts. I think that's another misreading of me, because I only started citing old posts when enomis started asking me questions about my progression of reads Day 1. I want to note that some of voato's posts such as 2267 don't feel right to me anyway: "the reason we FoS you is that you are citing old posts (really really old sometimes) to justify your reads" the we here implies himself, Ydrasse, and Maduisha, but I only started citing old posts to enomis in 2244, after Maduisha and Ydrasse had both voted me and were offline. So his statement here can't be true, at best it's lazy/thoughtless, at worst a lie.

I haven't really had time to think about who might be scum today, I've been focused on figuring out if the arguments against me have any merit and if they come from a genuine place. I am still in the process of doing that. The saddest thing, I think, is that there's a universe where all 3 of votato/Maduisha/Ydrasse are town pushing on me and scum is in the remaining. I don't really know right now.

For the three on my wagon, I guess all I can say is: if I am misunderstanding the argument against me, please let me know. At least one of you is town, and those of you who lynched Quick with me know TvT misunderstandings are possible. If you're going to mislynch me let's not let it be because we didn't communicate.

One big takeaway is unless Joqiza really really planned out excuses I think 275 really limits the merits of the argument against him because of the voting pattern on me.

I'm honestly wary of the push on him right now. Two reasons: 1) the end of day vote thing doesn't read as bad to me as it does to most of you and 2) while his tone has changed, I'm not sure it is AI (for much the same reasons Madiusha's tone changes were not neccesarily AI). I'm also pretty convinced he is not scumbuddies with votato. I want to delve more into the casework on scumpairs but that also has to wait. And I suppose most people now have 1+ scumread in the people pushing on him which is eh.

Votato, I know I owe you an argument on you. You're next for a mini-iso.

DkKoba, I know you have personal stuff going on right now (and wish you the best in that regard) but I'd like to see where you are going on Ydrasse.

I'll try to answer some questions and do another one of these tonight.

Joqiza's claim is probably not AI? It's premature but don't see it necessarily leaning one way or another.

[Apogee]

Nice graph. I do like seeing hard data.

I'll admit, looking at the chart (before you posted the graph) one of the first things I noticed was "yeah, I look sus" with my eod activity. But it came from an albeit now clearly misguided confidence in Quick being scummy. I didn't really engage around hammer time with the back and forth mostly around joqiza's actions.

Since D2 started the person currently at the top of my lynch list isn't a wagon and I've just spent more time reading (and rereading) and trying to formulate thoughts. Also I've been meaning to try to figure out what the deal with this whole Ydrasse wagon is but I was concerned about messing up the reaction test because I half figured it was one. I asked you (and Joqiza if he wants) to elaborate on your reasoning but idk if you saw that.

[Apogee]

Figure now is a good time to do so since you FOS her as well off of posting habits

[Apogee]

Other things that stand out on the graph:

Surge of Madiusha activity at EOD D1, and less contribution from her d2

Enomis has a similar trend of less posting EOD D1 and less today, albeit that he has come back up more yesterday

DkKoba and Votato have by far the highest post counts.

Votato's posts are highest during the Maduisha push, but if memory serves not all of his posts related to that push at that point.

My activity is the highest with the wagon on me and then early on in the push onto quick (take this as you will it just surprised me even how drastic it was)

Joqiza posts more when he is on the defensive

DkKoba posted a ton EOD.

Most of this is not going to tie into the gamestate at all, but I figured I'd just put down what leapt out at me.

[Apogee]

Sorry it's probably super sus to post a bunch right after being called out for not posting but I went back and looked and just thought of something re: votato pairings.

My claim is that if votato is scum, Ydrasse is his scumbuddy.
This is why I want to hear the case on Ydrasse because I'm not convinced of her scumminess but think that she would be most consistent with being votato's partner. This also does not mean Ydrasse in theory could not have other scum partners.

Maduisha and Votato are probably not scumteam (it would be a risky, risky move with what she was doing at EOD d1, even if what happened beginning of D2 made me think of classic x is bad but y is worse). I don't think Joqiza/Votato works even if others do, but I guess I could be convinced on that. I know its not me, it would be bizarre if it was DkKoba, and I don't see enomis their either.

This is all stream of consciousness I'll try some proper analysis of votato later complete with actual takes on him as opposed to just pairings. I really need a fresh readthrough first though most of D1 is blending

p-edit: this is even somewhat consisent with votato's claim above

[Apogee]

sorta. i explained that already. I think DK is fairly easy to read when under pressure. So I turned up the heat. I wasnt planning on making up scumreads all game, but the thread is completely dead, and apathy is really bad for towns, so I want to keep people active, emotional, and engaged.

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

i revived this game from the dead by starting some pressure on some people. Yeah, it was bullshit pressure, but look at all the stuff thats happening. I am also providing reads, asking probing questions, and doing some pretty effective shitposting.

i don't think this game was really dead, and you even admit that your pressure was stupid. Iirc the push you did outside of pushing DK was saying apogee+maidusha were scummy which I don't really get. Why don't you push people you think are scum instead of doing your so called bs pressure? Also, you said that DK was fairly easy to read under pressure, how do you even know that??

look at posts per hour before i did that, look at posts per hour now. look at the number of people who were coming under pressure then and now. i generally wait a bit to form firm reads, and the game was awkwardly not in RVS and awkwardly wagon-less. So i made up some stuff to get things going. look. it worked. except that people still arent voting. please vote. this isnt real life, your vote here matters. im pushing at someone i legit think is scummy now. i voted that person, and am waiting for replies and other people's reactions. im pretty sure DkK is pretty easy to read under pressure based on 1997. you were there.

for the record, i accused maduisha and apogee in post 229. the game started 3 and a half days before that, and there were 9 full pages of content. in ~52 hours since then there are 20 full pages of content. sounds like things got more lively. im not sure why thats such a big deal, but there you have it.

midway, this is a game of cooperation. for the uninformed majority to win, we have to work together. by hiding our thoughts, we allow the scum to hide their thoughts too. that said, blatantly anti-town behavior comes from town more often than scum. I'll unvote you provided that you share your reads and they make some measure of sense.

You will have it working on some ISO reads right now

[Apogee]

Ooops those were not supposed to be there yet guess it spoiled who I was ISOing

[Apogee]

Long post incoming on votato and his scummy behavior. Followup to come on pairings. I'm not doing a full ISO but I'll cite some posts under each of my main points.

Alright. Most people are at least open to the idea that votato is scum. Personally, I'm not 100% sure (I'll get my hedge out of the way right at the beginning and you won't have to listen to any more for the rest), and I'm not going to tunnel him, but I think votato has displayed major scummy behavior and is a worthy lynch.

Let's break down the case into three big categories: sheeping and false wagons, seeking towncred, and falsehoods (lies of omission, partial defenses, and contradictions).

1. Votato has repeatedly joined wagons with the intent of "pushing" a slot, often after someone else has started one. Generally, the reasoning for these wagons is either vague and not based in citations or he primarily follows along on someone else's (the wagon on myself and joqiza as the prime examples).

Here is a spoiler with all of his votes, to help facilitate rereads. Some posts speak for themselves, others take going back and reading context

Spoiler: Votato vote posts

VOTE: dkkoba

i read the thread. i voted you for two reasons: you have several posts already that read like either trying to look like youre town but doesnt do anything gamesolvey, or just really scummy/bad. I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

pedit: be taken out? arent you the one refusing to answer questions? town has no reason to hide their intentions or thought process.

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

Hm... I want to unvote because the attitude is good and I'm seeing honesty, but on the other side that readlist reveal makes no sense...

Midway, do you think you can you sell me your Clemency/Votato wagons? Can you expand on the reason for your reads on them or are they just gutpings for now? It's okay if you have nothing.

I feel so damn lost in this game.

VOTE: maduisha this game deserves a good counter-wagon. the people need it. You've picked up on a tiny thing midway did and view it as scum, when it seems like it should pretty clearly be NAI. Your expressions of self-doubt read to me like scum trying to hedge so they can backtrack later.

when did I say that I thought she was always town, I only thought she was town after rereading. I liked what I saw, and her reaction to your accusations would be similar to mine. Stop making up evidence, and you said "vote comes back tomorrow night" yet you revote 26 minutes after...

you need to explain your progression better. It seems from what you said that you magically changed your mind.

And did you read any of the posts that happened in the 26 minutes between?

VOTE: apogee

this is so frustrating. If this is town votato, I can see why knightmare scumread you.
how am I hedging my final conclusion is that apogee is town? Can you read the post again?
this is so stupid

most of the post is says things that suggest that apogee is scum. then you turn around and start saying "hmm im not sure" and your conclusion is: scum+i dont know=town. thats called hedging, because you can later say "i should have listened to my initial thoughts and said scum."

Hold up I fail to see why lynching me first gives more information that literally any other first lynch. Votato you seem really happy to jump around wagons.

its only partly about the info. im just confident that theres scum in that set of people, so we win by lynching there. the order is based on probabilities. Also, im not really hopping wagon to wagon am i? my first real vote was on maduisha. my vote is currently still on maduisha.

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

I have absolutely no clue why we are a likely scumpair.

because of defending without defending, and the strange way you guys interact. i dont buy it as genuine.

VOTE: votato
This guy has been dropping scumtells left and right
blatant buddying with DK, terrible logic, random votes, stupid reaction tests, jumping from wagon to wagon
the gig is up

pedit: probably because I defended you.

could you show me scumtells ive dropped? random votes in RVS really isnt a scumtell. tell me where my logic is bad. like specific examples. again, im not jumping wagons. and look how lively this game is. Scum wouldnt put effort into livening up a game. Scum!me would sit back and let apathy set in.

1. What real contribution?
2. Even after I clarified that I thought apogee was town, you still thought I was hedging
3.
4. Nope, I will not do that this time.

Lets stop this argument for now ok(until other people come back)

can we lynch this please?

1. my push on maduisha, and presure on you and apogee.
2. yes. being forced to take a stance does not take away from the fact that you initially HEDGED. jeez.
4. only scum has any reason whatsoever to hide their reads. VOTE: midway. youre way less cute now.

grammatically, quick said "unvote midway. i still scumread you." you in that sentence is midway. quick could have done a bad job of writing maybe.

VOTE: quick

VOTE: quick

Okay, what have I done that's Scummy? I am all ears. Go ahead, make your case. Otherwise you are just being opportunistic off midway Susing me.

read the thread. specifically, read my ISO. stop ignoring any and all questions asked of you.

Yeah ill at least compromise on the enomis lynch. i still really prefer quick or maduisha tho. VOTE: enomis please dont hammer until enomis has some time to defend himself, and until he has claimed or whatever else he wants to do. we have lots of time before deadline. if anyone lolhammers, im gonna come for you tomorrow and irl.

pedit: no. i think maduisha is more likely scum than enomis. but if im 2/3 or even 1/3 we can safely lynch all three of these scummy people and still win. also wagon =/= lynch, if theres really good reason not to go through on the lynch i wont. I'm willing to compromise on the wagon because a) pretty much any lynch is better than no lynch b) enomis is pretty scummy, and maybe the enomis wagon is right to see enomis as scummier than quick and maduisha. enomis has earned my vote with a well-run campaign. Against lesser competition I may well have been pushing enomis the whole time. but enomis is and has been in my lynchpool. anyone in that pool is worth pressure. its day 1, so im probably wrong, but thats the way the game works. in non-newbie lobbies people compromise about lynches all the time near deadline.

VOTE: quick

i bet he magically reappears

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

UNVOTE: . im starting to think that my solve ought to be maduisha and enomis.

He attacks people in many posts for self-doubt and hedgy behavior. While it's true he hasn't hedged verbally as much, he hedges in action all the time. He's happy to drop wagons he expresses conviction on with marginal explanation. Again, for someone who has gone after people for lacking sources and analysis, he provides very little genuine work of his own. Like, read his ISO. Compare how many posts he cites or provides good original analysis in to how often he attacks people for not citing or analyzing. Look at the number of wagon's he joins or "randoms/bs" into compared to how often he provides original or even substantive support to those wagons. His persistent insistence that people give read lists ties into this as well. On its own that would be NAI, but in this context it is circumstantial evidence. He wants information on who he can go after safetly. Look at his two read lists he offered:

town: DK, joqiza, ydrasse, votato
mild scum lean: enomis, quick
scum lean: midway, apogee
scum: maduisha

that should all be pretty apparent from my ISO. your slot comes with a slight scumlean from clemency, and youve done nothing to change that.

your turn. whats your readlist?

sure.

town: ydrasse, apogee, votato
null town: DkK
null scum: enomis
scum: Maduisha, joqiza

my reasoning for all these reads has been pretty clearly stated in my ISO, but id be happy to clarify.

Both are "safe." Both include people who have moved around a lot for reasons "explained in ISOs" which may or may not actually be explained. He shifts votes a ton.

2. Votato also has a big problem with seeking towncred. I'm going to spoiler pretty much all the posts where he claims either because of posting habits, WIFOM nightkills, or some other reason he should be considered town. I really don't think a town would feel the need to do this to the extent he did even when not being actively wagon-ed.

Spoiler: Votato seeking towncred

sorta. i explained that already. I think DK is fairly easy to read when under pressure. So I turned up the heat. I wasnt planning on making up scumreads all game, but the thread is completely dead, and apathy is really bad for towns, so I want to keep people active, emotional, and engaged.

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

i revived this game from the dead by starting some pressure on some people. Yeah, it was bullshit pressure, but look at all the stuff thats happening. I am also providing reads, asking probing questions, and doing some pretty effective shitposting.

i don't think this game was really dead, and you even admit that your pressure was stupid. Iirc the push you did outside of pushing DK was saying apogee+maidusha were scummy which I don't really get. Why don't you push people you think are scum instead of doing your so called bs pressure? Also, you said that DK was fairly easy to read under pressure, how do you even know that??

look at posts per hour before i did that, look at posts per hour now. look at the number of people who were coming under pressure then and now. i generally wait a bit to form firm reads, and the game was awkwardly not in RVS and awkwardly wagon-less. So i made up some stuff to get things going. look. it worked. except that people still arent voting. please vote. this isnt real life, your vote here matters. im pushing at someone i legit think is scummy now. i voted that person, and am waiting for replies and other people's reactions. im pretty sure DkK is pretty easy to read under pressure based on 1997. you were there.

for the record, i accused maduisha and apogee in post 229. the game started 3 and a half days before that, and there were 9 full pages of content. in ~52 hours since then there are 20 full pages of content. sounds like things got more lively. im not sure why thats such a big deal, but there you have it.

midway, this is a game of cooperation. for the uninformed majority to win, we have to work together. by hiding our thoughts, we allow the scum to hide their thoughts too. that said, blatantly anti-town behavior comes from town more often than scum. I'll unvote you provided that you share your reads and they make some measure of sense.

i mean i think you should evaluate my play post-flips. if it gave me good reads then it was good. or if im scum and it distracted you all then it was also good. i think it gave me good reads.

I've also been very aggressive, yet you scumread me. how do you reconcile the two?

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

hmm i actually think midway's death implicates maduisha. it seems pretty clear that the kill was intended to make me look guilty. midway was tunneled on me 100%. But maduisha was too, and maduisha was far more cogent in her reasoning. if i were gonna kill someone who was tunneling me to take the pressure off, it woulda been her. scum trying to implicate me should also have killed her, because thats pretty obvious. yet midway died and maduisha is still alive. and maduisha has done nothing to develop or progress her reads. It could be really bad town play, but i think its more likely to come from scum.

Also note how its possible he sets up this "refugee in midwaybear dying" plan early on -- see 1360 and one other similar post way back I saw in his ISO and then lost where he says midway is too scummy to die. This is easy-to-see WIFOM, like really easy WIFOM, so votato trying to take refuge in it is concerning and a sign of scuminess. It could be a premeditated strat.

3. Votato often partially or fails to respond to cases on him, and like I've mentioned before doesn't really offer much original analysis or citation back while at the same time loudly extolling the virtues of citations. He has stumbled into fallacies and contradictions in a number of places. This point also comes in as you read his material and it just kind of feels evasive at some points. It seems a lot of the time his criticism of others deflects from his behavior.


Also, I'm not certain about scum-slips, and I am hesitant to speculate about power roles, but look at these three posts -- PS if you are a town power role that provides support/opposition to this case one way or another please please do not bring it up even obliquely we don't want to give away more information:

Spoiler: Scumslip maybe

yeah, we know you're a mafia goon.

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

almost like the scum are spamming the thread to distract us. that tells me theres a slip buried somewhere early game that they are trying to separate us from.

Could be a votato (as scum) who knows we are playing in a column C game (leading to 6 townies, 1 town PR and 2 mafia goons)? This is a bit of a reach. But I think we have seen projecting-as-distraction votato before so it might be worth thinking about. Its hard to know how to read quips but some of this is ehhh (and not just the quotes here some other "jokes" are concerning.

As a final note, this could be bad analysis, and if I'm making a big deal out of a bunch of NAI behavoir, I'd appriciate if people would let me know. But I am pretty convinced there is enough here that votato has to be one of the main focuses of pushes today. I'd like to hear from votato ofc but also other people about what they think.

Pairings up next

[Apogee]

OK possible pairings for votato:


DkKoba: Don't see it. Earlier on conflict felt real, also don't think he is scum anyways.
Enomis: Outside possibility but unlikely. Could be some distancing earlier but nothing about interactions suggest a pairing.
Madiusha. Most unlikely to be pair in my opinion. EOD and start of the day today the conflict felt too real. Also, she was the only one on his wagon. I've suggested before how risky it would be to do that.

Onto the more interesting:

Joqiza. I could be convinced. I honestly don't find his actions today super scummy, but the tone shift is mildly concerning. Put off by the fact that almost certainly one person on his wagon is scum as well. Interesting interaction with votato in 1805 that could be setting up distancing earlier however if the "safe delay" crowd on the lynch is right.

Ydrasse: Ok I think there is real merit to this scumpair, but what I am concerned by is the lack of a case imo for overall scumminess, which is why I have been asking DkKoba and Joqiza about thier votes there. Here are all the posts where Votato mentions or quotes Ydrasse in a substantive manner:

Spoiler: Ydrasse/Votato

i read the thread. i voted you for two reasons: you have several posts already that read like either trying to look like youre town but doesnt do anything gamesolvey, or just really scummy/bad.

I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start

.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

pedit: be taken out? arent you the one refusing to answer questions? town has no reason to hide their intentions or thought process.

what posts specifically are scummy to you? i don't think it's bad to push obvi but i don't know which ones you think stand out as especially offensive.

well i do think that DkK seems way to easily convinced by clemency. That would be a pretty easy lie for clemency to tell. I bolded the most relevant part of that post though. DkK gets very aggro and emotional when under pressure, and i think you can pretty easily get a peek at what lies under the spammy, mildly annoying exterior. After pushing him, I have him on a solid town read. I haven't seen him in any scum games, so I could easily be wrong. But, he's right. this is exactly how town!DkK thinks and acts. I also dont really see what he sees in enomis.

In short: I didn't think DkK was really all that scummy, I just thought he'd be an easy place to get a read. Turns out I was right! UNVOTE:

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Yeah I kinda figured this was a reaction test but I hoped it would generate a few other responses.

I'll elaborate on Ydrasse. Tbh their approach honestly seems kinda like how I try to approach town right now? A little hesitancy to jump forward too hard on any wagon, a mix of questions and reactions, and feels pretty genuine. Seems like Ydrasse sincerely wants content and a measured analysis of it. To the extent I have hesitance, it would be her not seeming to commit to particular ideas super hard, but that applies to me and quite a few other people.

DkKoba I'm not super leaning either way. I agree with Maduisha that he felt more frustrated than anything the last few pages, but I'm less convinced that's necessarily tvt then she is.

Midway I've commented on quite a few times, and I want to reserve further judgement until they post the analysis they promised. I'm hesitant with the fluffposting they have done, but I guess that's not necessarily scummy, although in a vacuum I normally would think it is (other people might have their own experience -- this is my first online game so I'm not super familiar with how much of that is to be expected).

p-edit: a bunch happened while I typed this. I'll look over all of it and post thoughts in a bit

generally id say hesitancy to join a wagon seems more like scum wanting to see which way the wind is blowing before committing. I see the town motivation too since its a newbie game, but I think this game currently suffers from insufficient confidence and aggression from most people (and too much from myself and DkK).

oh, and please call me either he, she, or it. not they.

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

okay, you have a wagon on you. good, we can see this. we can see interactions on it.

you have to understand how it makes you look though to just sit back and say. "yep, gonna wait for people to interact and vote on this instead of trying to actively find scum myself and instead let them come out of the woodwork." right? like. you can analyze the wagon on you all you want, more power to you, but you need to also be doing some of your own legwork in this situation. it's frustrating to not have any real push from you and instead spend most of the game focusing on a slot and then poof, nothing, no vote, just gonna hang out on the off chance someone does something that i can point out.

i just want to note that you completely sheeped my argument from two posts above. interesting.

just read my interactions with votato
they speak for themselves. votato was my original scumread, so I am not trying to throw around anything that sticks...

that actually doesnt make sense given what ydrasse just said. and QUOTE MY SCUMMY POSTS. ANALYZE. dont just say you think things, say why!!!!!!

town: DK, joqiza, ydrasse, votato
mild scum lean: enomis, quick
scum lean: midway, apogee
scum: maduisha

that should all be pretty apparent from my ISO. your slot comes with a slight scumlean from clemency, and youve done nothing to change that.

your turn. whats your readlist?

i wish i could be inside midway's head i want to do science experiments on his brain

+1

to those who just posted and arent commenting on quick: what is it that makes you still townread there?

quick is null for me, leaning scum; however, their style/posting admittedly makes it hard for me to read them since it's not... conventional? at least to what i've seen. so i don't feel comfortable stating for sure that i think they're scum For Sure when i'm having trouble sorting them.

like, i don't think quick's iso is literally every single post is bad, ever; i used dkkoba's post by post analysis to skim through a lot of quick's iso and i think to some degree they're reading to confirm their own suspicions rather than like... actually sieving out what might be Okay and what is Bad. which has already been said, granted, but i think merits a bit of note.

however, i will say that quick's latest posts are definitely not great compared to how he started out when he subbed in, for sure.

Ydrasse something DkKoba and I have both expressed is that we cannot really point to many posts by Quick and and say "oh, that is a towny post." Do you see anything that indicates them being a town? I'll agree the style does make it difficult, but over what, 150+ posts how often can you say what he posts is town?

as i've already stated, i think that as the game's progressed it's been harder and harder for me to see a lot of town motivation behind quick. i am just scared though that quick might be doing some big brained wifom strategy with this like, aloof/blasé sort of gameplay. which is probably too complex of an explanation but i just don't get his behavior.

if so a bit more pressure should reveal that. i was wondering that too for a long time, but i really dont think so based on recent posts. He's flailing around voting and giving poor reasoning and changing his mind 180 degrees repeatedly. I'm not sure that we should lynch, but im pretty damn sure we should force a claim or at least a proper defense.

hi sorry for not being around as much i haven't been feeling too hot.

of the lynches proposed today i only feel comfortable with voting either enomis or quick. i'm not voting votato. his game has gotten progressively stronger fmpov as the day progressed. for maduisha, i think that since she's bunkered down and started pushing more, analyzing and the like she's moved up a bit in my eyes, even if i don't agree with her reads.

idk why quick keeps bringing up roles, it seems too blatant to be fishing but it also makes my head hurt and i think i might be overthinking it. either way there's no one else other than these two i would lynch.

this. except id also be down to at least pressure maduisha, although at this point that should wait until tomorrow.

apogee and Dk have said pretty explicitly that they see no merit to my wagon. Dk varies sometimes, so its possible in theory. if anyone else wants to hammer me i ask the same courtesy, but i dont think they will. Ydrasse has also said iirc that he wont lynch me, at least not today.

maduisha, didn’t i explain at the time why i was voting you? (i’m on mobile since i’m working or else i’d nab the post itself).

votato came into the game pushing on dkkoba, but over time they seem to have aligned more even if dkkoba did/does (?) find votato to be scummy.

Dk should be finding votato Scummy regardless of votato's alignment.

ydrasse means that DkK and i have similar thoughts and reads. we are in sync, so to speak. ydrasse and apogee are similarly aligned. its a townblock, yo.

I don't understand your question. When I made that post, I was willing to put him in my lynchpool because of those red flags and my evaluation of him as a player. At the end of the day, I lynched Quick over votato because there were 1000 posts in between that read list and the hammer and Quick scumtold and votato didn't. Actually votato towntold a bit imo.

Are you ignoring the fact that Ydrasse and votato both TR me yesterday and opened up today by putting me on L-1? We're their TRs on me that weak? Why am I being held to this standard where I can never reconsider anything but they aren't?

a few things. 1) the legwork has been done to call out your inconsistencies. 2)flips help thoughts develop, so reads should change. the reason we FoS you is that you are citing old posts (really really old sometimes) to justify your reads, yet your actions have changed. thats not an organic progression. you cant both have the same reads as early yesterday and also be pushing different people. you're largely ignored the case against you, and haven't done much to elaborate on your thoughts.

however, it leaves in my "i would feel comfortable lynching this today" pool: joqiza, votato, dkkoba. of which i think are potential scum teams in joqiza/dkkoba and joqiza/votato. i don't think that dkkoba/votato is as likely, but given the attempts made at times to create a sense of distance between the two (votato saying there was a townblock and dkkoba immediately shutting that idea down), there is a chance of it. i am not so sure of it, though, as to put weight in it.

to me that interaction clears DkK pretty much. if Dk were scum he wouldnt push back against being in a townblock.

sure.

town: ydrasse, apogee, votato
null town: DkK
null scum: enomis
scum: Maduisha, joqiza

my reasoning for all these reads has been pretty clearly stated in my ISO, but id be happy to clarify.

My Ydrasse read is based on consistent solid posting and our reads/thinking being very much aligned for the majority of the game. Ydrasse said a few times "get out of my head" but just as often, I find myself agreeing 100% with Ydrasse or planning on saying something, only to find that Ydrasse already said it.
Apogee is similar. I feel that Apogee has had a lot of fluff posts, but some good posts and generally solid thought progressions. Today Apogee hasn't really done much. I'm not sure I like the reasoning behind the vote on me: "I'm way behind and not sure, but here's a gut feeling without really being up on the last 30-40 pages." That said, still mostly good reads and progression.

well Ydrasse, what do you think the motivations behind such a quick turnaround would be for scum!votato and for town!votato?

Obviously the vast majority of this is NAI. However, a few things stand out.

1) Ydrasse is a townlock to votato. The fact votato props her up quite a bit, often subtly
2) His suggestion Ydrasse and I should form/are a townblock
3) Hints of mild distancing early on turning to more outright support later
4) More interaction between the slots in the latter half of the game

I'm not 100% certain, and Ydrasse would 100% be the second lynch I'd advocate for, and ofc I want to hear a defense and more arguments about Ydrasse's inherent scuminess. I'll probably look at that next.

[Apogee]

To be honest, one big reason I think Ydrasse is votato's scumbuddy if he is scum is because of POE on most others to a greater degree. I realized I didn't articulate that as clearly as I could have above.

[Apogee]

I'm probably off to sleep soon so if anyone has questions, comments, or concerns they would like to talk about before then pipe up now.

Otherwise I'll be back in the morning and drop some responses then. Quiet day huh?

[Apogee]

Well I missed a lot of excitement last night. Didn’t even consider Ydrasse as cop but makes sense in hindsight. And joqiza yikes I honestly didn’t see the scumminess from the EOD action that apparently wiser people did. Looks like it’s 4 townie 1 goon based on the nk now.

Post flip rankings

Most Likely Scumpartners: Votato DkKoba
Possible Partner: Enomis, Me
Almost certainly not: Maduisha

I have myself at possible because well I know I’m not Joqiza's partner but I’d question if no one else considers me because honestly looking at myself I could be convinced we were buddies. I have arguments against it of course (not trying some wack strat here) but it should, just like the other 3 possibilities, be considered.

Votato I’ll talk about below. DkKoba I think has to be a consideration with his “meta townlean” on joqiza and how they have played off each other but I’m not sure he is first in POE. Enomis is a possibility but if I’m reading his D2 right he doesn’t strike me as a likely scum partner for joqiza. 9/10 if we lynch votato and DkKoba I think we POE scum.

[Apogee]

Ok, some of his response is fair and I’ll especially credit you on the “scumslip” because (as I indicated) I don’t really believe it either.

Your point on the towncred is disingenuous: As best I can tell from Datisi’s vote counts (sorry I’m not combing the thread for every vote if there was a wagon that appeared and vanished in between let me know) you didn’t have a wagon on you at all until 600, a two person wagon on you until 700 (which was back down to a 1 person for a while) then yes, a three person wagon around 900 that progressed to L-1. Most of your towncred moments came before these, and while you were pressured I’m not sure you were pressured that much. I’ll even cut you a break on the earliest but still there are 3-4 moments.

Also your refugee in the wifom is still scummy. Address that for me?

Point 1 isn’t about you applying pressure, which you correctly conclude is good for town. It’s the high velocity jumping for eh reasons. How you vote between like post 400 and 900. You seem to hold contradictory beliefs. A bit of a callous disregard which could be scummy.

Also, you still have sheeped other people’s reads a fair amount it seems.

Of course, none of this really manners because now we have cold hard facts to analyze and I don’t know how to take Joqiza’s and your interactions. I do think you are more likely a scumpartner for him than enomis and therefore are in the POE sorry.

[Apogee]

Also this is not a great timing for it to happen and if d2 had gone to time like d1 this would have fallen mostly on a night phase but I’m going to have limited to no access to the internet from about midday today until midday monday, so I’ll have to miss out on a bunch of early day analysis. I’d ask that we don’t hammer anyone but I don’t know if I can expect that, so at least please don’t hammer me before I can return (if you all decide in my absence to wagon me which I would advise against but I can’t stop I suppose). I’ll probably be around to talk for like 3 hours then most likely not

@Mod: I will be v/la until midday (12 EST) monday

Got it. -D

[Apogee]

Alright let's do this, I went through the whole thread again, starting from the top, and I have some thoughts on everyone, here are the notes I've taken. I'll be around for a while on-and off today so please AMA.

Votato

Probably town but still sus in that they constantly start wagons and back off them before any real pressure is applied, their “reaction tests” lack any sort of conviction and any conclusion from them is reached far too easily. Push on Koba was OK but jsyk I think you need way more than that to determine Koba’s alignment. Randomly threw out an apogee/maduisha scumteam without bothering to rr and then immediately caved saying he picked randomly and “gotta generate that content.” By the way, I think it’s funny that as soon as I point out that there’s not enough content for me suddenly there’s like three people grandstanding about getting content, I don’t think that’s even necessarily scum indicative I just hate it lmao. I don’t think votato and midwaybear are a scum team based on their interactions. Voted me with absolutely zero conviction and then immediately unvoted me before I had even responded with anything. Probably still town but the “need to appear active” without contributing to a gamesolve is a red flag. Currently on the maduisha wagon I was waiting to see if they would jump off again but honestly at this point it’s just a behavior pattern and I don’t know how to read into it any further. Light townread

Enomis

Cites some basic mechanics in their intro post, I consider that NAI given it’s a newbie game. Questions both Apogee and Clemency immediately based on misconstruing their words, interpreting their statements in the most literal way possible, possibly a slight language barrier. Super questionable how they double down both on the scumslip and on pretty much everything DkKoba says, also their TR on Apogee makes absolutely no sense, I rr post #65, dude TRs Apogee because they are “genuinely scumhunting” because they are using the term “wolf” and newb town wouldn’t do that? Dafuq?? On Post #301 has an absolutely garbage teamread on me/Koba which I think he knows he can’t even commit to, let me ask you something, have you EVER seen one scum partner say “my partner is hard town I will never vote them until I die” on DAY 1 of a game where you have TWO mislynches? Answer is no, that is never a scumteam and any experienced player should know that. Remains obsessed with pushing clemency as of #303 for more nai statements after I already clarified why their logic on Clemency’s slip doesn’t make sense, really seems to be working backwards from a “Clemency is scum” which they’ve already decided on, so at best is confirmation bias, at worst is scum-motivated. Analysis: scum read

DkKoba

Seemed more friendly and reserved in the opening than I’ve seen them, I found that questionabl just based off personal meta. Immediately put enomis at L-2 in the opening stages of the game, also somewhat questionable, I think it was too early to put them at L-2 there because one more vote puts them at L-1 and they potentially have to claim but enomis was scummy so w/e. Wanted to start townblock which is probably town-indicative for Koba, I think scum!Koba just hardtunnels someone instead of trying to play diplomat. Also seems to be re-evaluating their scumreads, that’s towny. I was extremely cautious at first because some of their TRs seemed too confident, Clemency “townslipping” seemed a little bit too extreme and more importantly I was cautious w.r.t. their TR on me, however usually when you see pocketing it involves a town player TRing a scum and then scum reciprocating, but I refused to reciprocate and even pointed out the potential for pocketing and Koba responded with an even harder TR, galaxy brain energy honestly if scum. Lastly had drunk posts, that is town indicative for them, QED they are villager. Their meta on me is decent btw

Ok seems not much is going to happen while I am online but this might be the most important Joqiza point for determining pairings from the early game

[Apogee]

Oh for the love of ...

DkKoba it’s possible and fairly consistent IMO . I’m on mobile and about to be offline but IMO sans counterclaim the poe is as I outlined above. I want to hear from enomis and especially madiusha because they are probably town. When I am back I plan on doing a deep dive into associations with joqiza if that already hasn’t been done.

[Apogee]

I need other peoples takes on how likely DkKobas doctor claim is to really know what to make because it is certainly possible but I don’t really know for sure. Again, I haven’t felt DkKoba was scummy much of this game but I’m just a little worried by associations and PoE. After doing legwork it might become more clear

[Apogee]

My hesitation on enomis comes from how he and joqiza went back and forth d1. Could it be distancing yeah of course but I’m not feeling it. I probably sound like a broken record but it’s hard for me to dive in too much right now but we go back and look I think that should be feasible.

[Apogee]

im just confused why did ydrasse save votato with a guilty on joqiza, like yeah i was calling her scummy but my intent was to lynch votato.

Explain this? I think ydrasse and madiusha were calling votato scummy yesterday and not trying to save him. Makes sense imo to out and go after the person you have confirmed.

Also, do you think how joqiza went on the enomis wagon mid day 1 could have been scum v scum

[Apogee]

I’m not voting until I’m back from V/La but DkKoba as doc who did you target n1?

[Apogee]

I need other peoples takes on how likely DkKobas doctor claim is to really know what to make because it is certainly possible but I don’t really know for sure. Again, I haven’t felt DkKoba was scummy much of this game but I’m just a little worried by associations and PoE. After doing legwork it might become more clear

I think it looks legit because the rules say roleblocker impedes jailkeeper action, so probably doctor too?

Spoiler:

All Newbie games use the Natural Action Resolution system for determining Night action effects. Mafia Roleblocker action takes precedence over a Town Jailkeeper action should that apply.

Like, if they block DK and kill Ydrasse, it shouldn't matter that DK used the doctor action on Ydrasse, right? And claiming doctor without knowing if there's a real doctor that could counterclaim is too risky for mafia at this stage in which they have lost half the team, so they can't afford to lie. I'd say we can trust DK as confirmed town.

[Apogee]

Hi all: I have internet at the top of this mountain for about 15 minutes. Did a brief reread and I’ll have to do more in depth analysis of joqiza’s early game. I’m not entirely happy with everything enomis has argued but it might make more sense when I got back and see what they have done earlier. Thought exercise for you all: what is the chance of a:
DkKoba/votato
Enomis/votato
Dk/enomis
Poe catching the scum? If you want to do the ones including me that would be great as well.

Personally, based on my current reads without going back and updating, I’d say
Dk/votato is 80%
The other two are 60%

This is liable to change post reread. Enomis, I’m hesitant how you only showed up when you were voted so you will be a big focus of the reread and relation analysis.


Again, I’ll ask not to hammer anyone until Monday but otherwise peace and glad some interesting stuff happened.

[Apogee]

Hi all:

Back in the car now. Will do a big post or two tonight. Here is my rough order of operations.

1. Reread d3
2. ISO enomis because that is the slot I need sorted most, specifically looking at d1 interactions with joqiza.
3. Association analysis on joqiza.
4. Association analysis on votato, DkKoba and enomis
5. Find the best POE, convince others to stick to it, and force it through
6. Hopefully win

Madiusha you are the person I am both most/least concerned with me being in their POE so I’m not upset but I am going to prove you wrong.

[Apogee]

Got a chance to do a little reread in the car. Town read on enomis. Even reading as anti-enomis as possible I have a terrible time seeing how his interactions with joqiza (and vis versa) from 1000 to 1300 are scum/scum. Explain if you think otherwise but I’m about ready to call POE votato/DkKoba and be done with it.

Still going to do a more in depth analysis this evening to a) make sure I’m not missing something on enomis/votato/DkKoba that clears one of them harder and b) to optimize chance of getting scum today.

Also since at least on the surface enomis was Easy to sort I might try to dive into some of the WIFOM moments of this game a little deeper.

[Apogee]

Votato, you said I suffer from confirmation bias but I asked you what your progression was and you said it doesn't matter. It looks like deflection. I think it's not unreasonable to want to know how does one go from scumread to townread and you are only giving vague explanations. And what is IC? It better not be one of your insults again, because I'm getting tired.

IC means innocent child. it means youre confirmed town. my progression was entirely based on Dk's posts around the claim and EoD yesterday. the progression is sudden, but its natural and articulated. also, i really want you to come up with a good punishment for yourself if i flip town.

I think I am misunderstanding you, or you are misunderstanding me. I am calling your current read on me to be fake because there's no progression to call me "confirmed town", especially not when you've been scumreading me the whole game and your only instance to consider me town was under the false premise that the statistic data meant something that made you townread people, but Joqiza was there and he flipped scum.

I was not asking about your progression on DK, I know it's based on the doctor claim. I think it's a filmsy scumread, but it's valid nonetheless. It's your change from scumread to confirmed town on me which is confusing me.

And no, I will not enter your game of "how much you want to bet I flip town" you played with Midway to discourage him. Even if you were to flip town, you're acting scummy. Townies that act scummy end up lynched even if just to clear all doubts if there's not a better lynch, or isn't that what happened to Quick?

the reason youre effectively clear is that you started pressuring joq very early in the day. you led that wagon. there was no reason for scum to do that, unless maybe as joq said he thought he was dead given the flip and this play would give you the win. its unlikely though. youre essentially confirmed town. does that make sense? im not the only one who sees you as IC now.

To back this up even further, your interaction calling for a new wagon onto joqiza d1 also mostly clears you even if you didn’t swing at him really hard d2 (which you did ofc, so together that is pretty clear)

[Apogee]

Let’s ask the whole group a question:

Is joqiza the kind of player to put his scumpair in a meme about all the possible scum pairs or not?

A close relation: is he the kind of player to joke about keeping a certain kind of talk in scumchat or not?

Do either of those moments indicate anything?

To be 100% honest, I don’t know. But I am very confident one is scum/scum interaction. Which? Why?

I’m talking about 405 and 1099 for the record.

[Apogee]

Can each of you give me a number representing how confident you are in the other?

P-edit: Dk, do you think the enomis-joqiza interaction day 1 could be scum theater?

[Apogee]

Here for a minute. Still on mobile but can converse. Yeah it’s hard not to be paranoid right now. You have questions?

[Apogee]

Read progressions are a big focus of tn so we will see exactly how people evolve in beautiful colory detail

[Apogee]

Yeah.

Votato 8
DkKoba 6.5 (you were higher but I’m feeling better about you as I think through things)
Enomis 5 (I think his interactions with joqiza d1 should clear him — is there any chance joqiza calls his scum buddy his preferred lynch?) — but his overal tone and posting behavior is hard for me to grok)
Madiusha 2 (it would have to be the busiest bus that ever bussed without knowledge of what the prs were up to)

[Apogee]

You can note how this evolved from my percentage of success on each wagon yesterday

[Apogee]

But I want to wait until I’m back at a pc where I can actually multi tab and take notes before finalizing a POE

[Apogee]

Gun to my head right now, yes

[Apogee]

And I’m the interest of full disclosure, if he flipped town I’d lylo you

[Apogee]

Because a joqiza DkKoba scumteam has been my paranoid solve since my first read list and POE

I can’t argue too much more until I take a long look into exactly how you have interacted, but I don’t see a smoking gun for you not being on the same team in the same way I have for enomis.

Tbh if literally anyone else but joqiza had flipped scum we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion but here we are

[Apogee]

To clarify, I’m not implying I thought it was likely, but since I thought joqiza was town for sure, I’m jumping to a gut read which was you. However, I’m not certain yet for sure

[Apogee]

Because I thought I had him sorted by 730 which outlines some logic, there wasn’t much focus on the slot until d2 where I (similar to you) didn’t buy all the arguments against him, and because (perhaps naively) I conflated arguing in good faith with being townie.

Almost ready to go on joqiza associations

[Apogee]

I've been working on associations, but honestly I think I've found a more compelling story just by reading so I'll post that in a bit.

Votato, I'm not promising you are the lynch today yet, but if we do lynch you and you flip town who do you think is the best lynch? DkKoba? Enomis?

If you could lynch any two people today which ones would you hit?

[Apogee]

[Spoiler = Big quote]

Ok let's rumble:

I'll start with spoiler-ed takes on ever person in alphabetical order and then have an overall rating at the end. My townreads will generally have less description than my null/scum.
Disclaimer: I've really only looked up to like 692 while typing this so I might miss more recent posts if I don't catch them in individuals threads. Not going to try to p-edit the whole thing, although I'll happily discuss how things have changed after I catch back up.

Spoiler: Apogee

This is me. I'm not going to talk much about me in a post about other people, ask me things elsewhere. I will say (this should be obvious) all my takes are from the perspective that I am town, so maybe thinking about it like I claimed town innocent or something will help you understand my logic.

Spoiler: DkKoba

Null down from town. I like the energy and geniune emotion/frustration displayed in 255, 271, and pretty much any encounter with enomis between 100-300. At this point, signs pointed to them being headstrong, overconfident, but townie. They stirred conversation, drove early pushes.

I've put them down to null because of several reasons.

First, there is only so many times you can claim x is 100% scum, x and y are scumpair, you are unambiguously town/scum/whatever before I start to question your motives. Wall of quotes incoming:

On Clemency "townslipping", which they never really clarify:

Official Vote Count 1.02

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Clemency

(1): enomis

DkKoba

(1): midwaybear

Maduisha

(1): Apogee

midwaybear

(1): Ydrasse

Not Voting

(4): RandaAlzifahri, Lij00, Clemency, Maduisha

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• RandaAlzifahri and Lij00 have (expired on 2020-05-06 12:30:56) to confirm their role before I start looking for replacements.

[/area]

clemency is town

I was hoping you were at least typing up an explaination or reading the thread but it seems votato has chosen neither.
please read for context b4 you try to start pointless wagons because we're not in rvs anymore.

as for emonis still pushing clemency: exactly what emonis listed is what makes clemency town because he is genuine and his intentions were slipped as town. sorry bub we aren't lynching them today.

i feel a bit bad
i promise 30+ posts over the course of next day kk love you bye

i formally retract my townlean on clemency.

On Enomis, and then Enomis + Midway, Enomis + Votato

Official Vote Count 1.02

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Clemency

(1): enomis

DkKoba

(1): midwaybear

Maduisha

(1): Apogee

midwaybear

(1): Ydrasse

Not Voting

(4): RandaAlzifahri, Lij00, Clemency, Maduisha

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• RandaAlzifahri and Lij00 have (expired on 2020-05-06 12:30:56) to confirm their role before I start looking for replacements.

[/area]

clemency is town

I was hoping you were at least typing up an explaination or reading the thread but it seems votato has chosen neither.
please read for context b4 you try to start pointless wagons because we're not in rvs anymore.

as for emonis still pushing clemency: exactly what emonis listed is what makes clemency town because he is genuine and his intentions were slipped as town. sorry bub we aren't lynching them today.

i feel a bit bad
i promise 30+ posts over the course of next day kk love you bye

i formally retract my townlean on clemency.

This long accusation of Enomis, and then Enomis + votato and enomis + midway:

responding to ydrasse in 112
I understand your want to keep pushing enomis but I think mai is a better push right now.
Although I will hop onto enomis as they are a scumlean atm as well.

ur scumminess meter is going up the more you get defensive and nitpicky about what i'm saying. give me some good content instead of this constant backtracking.

votato engage me in good faith or I'll lead on your partner emonis. I was trying to get more information on other slots but it seems you chose to be a headass.

@DkKoba, how about you stop waving off my arguments and just answer them.

I am not interested in having pages of arguments with you as I am sure that's not good for town.

If you are going to continue to be like this, I am going to lynch you if I find no better scummy players at the end of the day.

p-edit: Talk about being annoyed. You know you are not the only one being triggered right?

please keep talking. your scumfile just keeps growing with each action + statement you take/make.

what questions votato. which questions did I not answer.
please quote them.

If you are town I advise you stop nitpicking stupid things such as "not wanting to answer obvious bait questions".

emonis needs to give better reasoning for their motives or I refuse to engage with something that's been already answered. They asked FOLLOW UP questions that showed lack of comprehension of what I said.

You need to actually read the thread and stop pretending you have rererad because you have shown you have only read about 2 pages.

Okay I really need to go but lastly @DkKoba I don't have a strong read on you yet but if you're town please don't get too locked into the fights on Day 1, like just because you're town doesn't make the 2 people pushing on you both scum and I'm worried you're gonna miss the forest for the trees here because that's what I've seen in the other games I've played with you. I haven't had time to read through them and figure out who's acting in good faith yet but I'll do that this evening, and in general I just think it's too early for the big brain 2/2 if you get what I'm saying

there's at least 1 scum between emonis + midway and I know it. I'll delete my account if I' wrong about that.

REMEMBER for most of this interaction their vote was still on Madiusha.

And of course the current situation with me and midway, which I will not rehash here. I've already indicated how I feel about more or less being scumpair-ed before posting, with a guy who my vote was on almost all game.

DkKoba is completly allowed to change their mind. I am just wary of such confidence paired with such swings and seeming illogical beliefs held at the same time.

Reading their ISO, another post stood out.

I don't understand. I have been in the seat of pressure before as a very aggressive player. I have to lay out my logic for people. It works oftentimes. I just want to know what your logic is. I'm looking for information. Information on your slot mindset in exchange for an unvote. That is all I want. (unless I determine you are indeed scum in which case the vote stays)

Yeah, DkKoba has provided some logic. But it's not constant. As much as I feel their emotion is a towntell, many of their claims do rely on it to varying degrees. They leave a number of posts against them un-argued and forge ahead on certain points.

All in all, I'm still inclined to think aggressive town who lashes out a little hard. I'm also trying to keep my own emotion out of my read, to varying success. Maybe its just causing me to hedge too much. But I feel there are enough questions to warrant a null. I can see this as a mafia playing aggressive, taking refuge in audacity, and hoping that through pressure they force mistakes. Just as equally, I can take their play at face and emotional value and conclude town who is going too hard in some areas. They are one of the more townie of my nulls, however.

Spoiler: enomis

My second null read, and the first of several reads that I think might land me in hot water. I honestly see two reads of this guy. First is a mafia who wanted to gain townpoints with mechposting, driving questions, and one early push. Second is that he's a helpful guy who wanted to promote early action, got heated up in one debate, maybe nitpicks details too much early on, and then for reasons didn't post much recently.

149 is one of the strongest pro-town Enomis posts in my opinion. Actually, his entire push on DkKoba felt good, even if it could easily be tvt. He uses a lot more evidence than I thought the first time I read through.

I'm chill with his early questions. It was a good start to getting some things moving.

However, he leans too much into scum/town slips that no one else really sees. Consider 301, the "Clemency Scumslip" and then his interaction with Clemency around 304

This leads to one of my larger causes of concern. Having weathered an early push and a half, he now slides out of the thread for 200 posts. From post 200 on, he only has 6 posts. More interaction will be needed to actual suss out if he is scum, but there is a reason I mentioned him a few posts ago as one of the wagons I would go on no questions asked. If you think one of these situations is impossible, I'll be happy to hear out your logic but I am really unsure if there is any way we can know for sure.

Spoiler: joqiza

My second-hardest town read.

I honestly felt like his points against me were fair and our entire discussion in the 380s felt like he was town to me, he seems a reasonable guy, devoted to finding scum, and posts read straightforward and earnest.

Uses lots of evidence in posts, and cites stuff well. My one hesitantion is he does play the I'll come back later game, but he does follow up on promises so not a put-off for me.

I really like how they approach posts 179, 278, and 620

My one fear is he and DkKoba are playing some excellent scum theatre and are good/bad copping all of us, but that's really unlikely. Worth bearing in mind 2 days from now if both live through then, because I have a terrible time thinking about how/why they would otherwise.

Spoiler: Maduisha

Maduisha is my first scumlean of three. She is the closest to null of the lot. Honestly, in the generous reading of her actions I see a mirror to me in a number of ways. Townie, somewhat confused, doesn't want to commit out of fear of being wrong, and then breaking down and being emotional under pressure.

But enough scummy posts exist to keep her on scumside.

These: are all wishy-washy, uncommitted, posts of the type that have gotten me into trouble. Personally, some feel more ok than others. But a couple, like the sliding of midwaybear way back and forth, seem much closer to "let's keep plausible outs" than most of my own content.

Alright, I've reread and I'm ready to play. I'm still getting used to the new interface here, so going to apologize in advance for badly formatted posts.

I usually hardpush one player at a time, but tbh this game seems a bit slower-paced than what I'm used to, so I'm gonna try to get a couple balls rolling at once.

First, I don't think clemency scumslipped. I followed the logic, but it's a huge reach. I often address players who's alignment I'm not sure of as though they are town, I just intuitively like giving people the benefit of the doubt. In general, I'm hesitant to try to determine someone's alignment based on individual lines. This is a lesson I've learned recently, but these sorts of "slips" don't end up being as alignment-indicative as I used to think, and I'm trying to move towards more holistic assessments of players and slots. With that in mind, I actually think clemency is pretty towny based on the opening pages. Rn I wanna hear from enomis on that.

The second thing is, the most questionable post I saw on re-read was probably #66 by Maduisha. I’m gonna quote some of the lines from that post:
[referring to a TR on clemency]: “this slot stays null for me as I don't find his content to be alignment indicative, but I'm getting slight town vibes from it and I want to see more”
[referring to a TR on Ydrasse]: “Ydrasse looks town for me. I know it's early to say this, but I get a gut feeling from her posts. Maybe it's because we seem to coincide in opinion about stuff right now and I'm being a bit biased.”
[referring to a TR on DkKoba]: “DkKoba seems to really want to get the game moving, which is a good thing, so I'm townleading him right now too.”
It’s kind of wild to me to have three TR’s on page 3 of a forum game, but more than that I find the way the reads are phrased really questionable. There’s a sort of hedging tone w.r.t. each of the three reads and honestly I’ve just seen lines like this from scum players. The one in Ydrasse in particular, the sort of “hivemind” read has always been really weak to me. Like, someone outed the same general read at the same time as you, so you TR them? Idk just feels ingenuine.

Yeah, I think there's some terminology confusion here, so I'm going to try to explain what I meant in that post. I like to classify people as:

- Null (cannot read yet).
- Town/scum lean (weak read but already feel like I see alignment indicative elements and would like to see more from them).
- Town/scum read (firm read that I feel like I can back with sufficient reasons).
- Lock town/scum (when my mind is set on someone's alignment for the rest of the game).

These are terms I used in previous games, and I learned them from other players using them as well.

When you said it's wild to townread 3 players so soon, I'm assuming you understood from it that I firmly believe they are town already. That is not the case, what I'm saying is that I think they are displaying behavior that lets on on their intentions, although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues. The fact that you called my reads not genuine is bothering me a little bit. The game has barely started, I feel like you should take some time to see more interaction from a slot before saying something like that. But fine, I'll put myself on your shoes and flesh out the reads a bit so you can see where I come from:

Clemancy: I said he's null for me because he hasn't produced content that is AI, but I felt his attitude felt a slight bit towny. I'm not reading him as town, I'm saying that I like his attitude so far.

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

I would also like to address DkKoba's concern about me, but it's a bit difficult considering he voted me and then said his reasons were the same as yours, so I hope this answers reaches both of you. If anyone has questions, I'll happily answer, because I want to be transparent with my way of thinking so we can all be on the same page.

I hope that clarifies some of my thought process.

I'm rereading page 5, but the push of Enomis still feels a little... empty... even if it comes from slots I'm more confident about.

I'm slightly liking that he's pissed at DK for his attitude, even. I feel like town are more likely to display negative emotions like frustration and such.

Not really, the only scummy behaviors I've seen are pretty weak.

One would be DK being like "I want to build a town block" but nah, the rest of his content feels towny. The other would be Midway being a bit evasive. He's going to talk when he sees this, so that's the best direction to get some more content to work with, I feel. I think that will also bring some more Apogee content because he's watching Midway, so that's interesting because his slot is pretty null to me right now.

What about you? Enomis/Midway scum leans? Do you have anything else in mind?

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

I did elaborate on Ydrasse and DK already when the new guy voted me, here in case you didn't read:

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

Add to those reads that Enomis vs DK looks town vs town because of evident frustration that doesn't look fake to me.

Midway I don't know what to think about, I called him out for doing something scummy and not only did he admit to it, but kept doing it more afterwards. So on one hand I don't think scum is so blatant, but at the same time doing that after being called out about it is kind of WIFOM and could be done on purpose. I'm trying my best not to hard tunnel based on WIFOM because I single handledly lost my last game due to paranoia, so I'm trying to see what serious content can his slot produce before jumping the gun.

hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.

however.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha

i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)

i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.

The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.

I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.

@Maduisha:

For me, it depends on how the emotions is showed.
1) I could get his frustration of the questions which feel like repeating and what he thinks I am nitpicking. But this could come from town or scum.
2) But I am actually not nitpicking and those are legit arguments in my eyes. I wanted to know his thought process and he just waved them away.
3) Furthermore, there is actually a chance that those emotions could be faked and he is just using this to try act out this emotion outbreak to distract town and use this to wave away my argument.
(This is one tactic that scum sometimes use, just repeat saying that your arguments are rubbish.)

All could be possible. Thus, I find no reason to read those emotions. as town. Nor scum.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you are town koba and you think that people is nit picking, what would you do? If you are scum koba would you do the same thing?


-----------------------------------------------
2) For people on bear wagon, do you think the post i quoted is scum bear? I think we should push other slots instead.

Basically, you are describing wifom and saying you can't trust emotions to be a towntell. I can't deny the potential of it being strategically used as a scum defense to be seen more as town, but I do feel it's a towntell in their case because DK has displayed behavior I read as town, so I would say this emotional read enhances the towny feeling rather than it defines it for me. I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Of course, if you didn't feel their previous behavior to be towny, then you can't read it the same way I do, so that answers the question I asked before. As I can see we're not in the same page about that slot, can you tell me what vibes are you getting from DK? (Brushing the emotion part aside, the rest of content).

As for the question you posed for Midway pushers: I feel you in the sense that that post and some others don't feel scummy to me, but I have a perception tone with his slot and I'm torn. I see both scummy actions and town behavior, so I'm confused about his motivations. Putting myself in his shoes, the post you linked makes sense both as town!Midway and scum!Midway that encounters DK again and wants them to feel their alignment is town. You get what I mean, right? I'm a fan of taking the most simple solution whenever I'm torn like this and that would be that he's actually town and I'm getting hung up on behavior I personally don't like that isn't necessarily scummy, but at the same time he keeps doing things that feel confusing and give me vibes of both alignments. I'm trying to interact with other slots too, but can you blame me for trying to get a better read of the slot that itches me the most?

Also, take this as you will, but I feel many of these posts fit into a formulaic pattern of a -> scum, b -> town, c -> more info that I think some one else commented on? Not sure who/where.

However, there are still posts that I feel sympathy for: 357 might be phrased badly, but I think the sentiment is something I have expressed: having wagons as someone who is non-committal gives you good material to work with. 472 with DkKoba having a recollection of facts that tilts towards one side.

Not a n1 lynch, but one to keep an eye on, pressure, and keep wagons circled about.

Spoiler: midwaybear

Null. Confusing. My main mafia pick for almost the entire game, mostly off of coasting, some scummy behavoir early, and just strange takes. And then a switch flicks and I see real if not inspired content. It's defending me, which is a strange first major effort from him, but I'll take it? Honestly his defense dug me a deeper hole (as now I come back to a scumpair wagon as opposed to DkKoba pressuring me) but it's either some perpendicular brain scum move or a townie who sympathizes and feels confident about something at last. Would not put the votato/midwaybear ultimate meme wagon completly out of the picture, but it would be some seriously nice theater if it is.

Posts for initial scumlean:
83, 139 leading into 171 is a minimal effort, coasting by kind of move. 225 followed by posting the reads just after is weird.
From 350-400 is pretty scummy behavoir. Not too much detail, few halfhearted reads, lots of reaction posting mixed in.

Posts I don't know how to take:
188, 209. I've done similar, but this is so blunt and so... ugh
332 and 334
Posts that make me think town:
216 this makes me feel his more recent pocket remarks are in good faith if not necessarily correct.
The exchange around 264 in retrospect is a lot more believable as town
546 shows his votato push is not out of the blue to defend me, and reads like he almost has a single coherent line of argument. His later votato push is uninspired.

Midwaybear is by far the hardest for me to write. I feel like practically anything, from hard townlean to full bus to something close to what I do will set votato and DkKoba onto me for being his scumpartner. So, I wrote this as honestly as I could, but I didn't put the most time into it, which I reserved for my scumreads. I'll engage more with how we may or may not be scumpartners in a different time, hopefully with someone who has honestly read into my actual arguments as opposed to omgscumpartner-ing anything I say about them. Regardless of my personal opinion, is not a terrible lynch, and if they flip scum I guess I'm in the hot seat but eh, it would be worth it for town at that point.

Spoiler: Quick/Clemency

Scumread. This one is going to have to change around a little bit, because I was going to look through some of Clemency's meta-behavior (post-patterns, voting, etc) which I thought was exceedingly suspicious. With the replacement, it suggests much of it was possibly for outside of the game reasons, but here goes what logic I think still holds:

Massive wall of quotes and text.

statistically speaking everyone is town until proven otherwise

UNVOTE:
i think other slots are higher priority to push rn
i'd pick one if i wasnt walking home atm

i dont
i'd simply rather push a newbie slot than an SE since they're more likely to slip up or let on more than they should

i prefer taking the path of least resistance

Here are the first three, where we start to get an idea of Clemency. The stat quip could be innocent, but is also unusual to pull out on pg 1. 30 and 33 combine to show him wanting to take an easy path. I get the newbie logic to a small degree, but, like I have said for quite a while, and taking much heat on it, his withdrawl from the first wagon does not read right, and this explaination does not help. I'll get back to this with a hypothetical later.

i think it doesnt have enough merit to warrant an answer and frankly it hurts my feelings

i am so bad with my alts

you could do that with literally any type of post
step 1: ask question
step 2: get answer
step 3: jeepers guys, this is bad
step 4: rake in the misdirection

Here is our next taste of Clemency. Three major deflections. I'm going to assume that intentionally altslipping as a distraction would be against some rule? But it implies a callous disregard nonetheless that I think townies might be more careful with. 45 feels like it undermines any sense of progress we were starting to see, as DkKoba and Enomis both relied on the question structure to generate content at the time. Why de-legitimize the top two content makers?

eh, im gonna blatantly backpedal by admitting i was trying a different style and it didnt suit me

oh that part was honest

Huh? Then which part was made up.

when i started going after dkkoba

I hate the idea of too scummy for scum in most regards, and the blatent backpetal feels like an attempt at it. The exact mechanics of where the "different style" begins and ends are unclear, and it feels like a great excuse to take refuge in audacity.

i feel a bit bad
i promise 30+ posts over the course of next day kk love you bye

Another guy that makes fake promises of rereading and acts blatant about it. Hi, Clemency.

Why does this game have to be wifom fest.

P-edit: Oh, come on!

i said i'd read, not that i'd reread :p

Low effort? Skating around? Popping in just to try to dissuade mafia votes at the moment? Check check check, I feel like this kinda behavior got a lot of other people (including me) hammered and it slipped past on him more.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

noticed one question so i'll answer it:
1. its not really my mo, i just sway from low to high effort and it tends to be laser focused on individual games
2. i try to fluff and mess around less on newbie games since i cant rely on my reputation and i dont wanna ruin new player experiences

@mod can i have a pt to write down notes
keeping track of things is a major pain on mobile for me

Oh boy this is kind of a smoking gun if you think about it. "Fluffs less" on newbie games -> indirectly fluffs (not perhaps in the vein of midway but through skating, weak posting, hopping in and out). Swaying from low to high effort hasn't happened. Seems low effort overall. "Laser focused on individual games" I don't know how to take, sounds like he might be referencing having other games to focus on right then? That could be the case and in that case the low effort is midly less suspicious, but again feels like there are only so many excuses he can pump out before it just becomes cover.

just gonna put some things from my reread here from time to time
@all of page 2
i cant assume dkkoba's level of experience but this feels like the play of a bold player finding themselves in a scum role and trying to latch onto percieved weakness rather than attempting a genuine push

combined with giving out random, shallow towncred here and there seems like a way to look like you dont know who town is, and are trying to assess people with gold stars and frowny faces
it feels like someone who has taken the position of town and feels concerned with looking the part

@page 3
im gonna treat everything after page 2 as a totally intentional reaction test to dkkoba and pretend im not just incompetent
#50 literally contains an attempt to shade me and a denial that he's trying to shade me simultaneously
#52 can then be attributed to trying to maintain a look of "i'm town because i ask questions from everyone"
please stop me if i turn into confbias city because i have a bad habit of tunneling

scum typically try to start townblocks
starting one this early is high risk high reward

bless

@#59 either its a site by site meta thing or you're trying to make it seem like it is
scum trying to form townblocks can be a good way to secure your position in a game if you arent too blatant about it
#61 backpedal but also throwing in that you're "totally forming townreads already"
scum are pretty eager to townread considering its the main information they have as their advantage
@65 either you believe it was a scumslip or you dont, if you're so unsure about it why even let it weigh in?
i also dont really understand the confusion on the rest of the page about my backpedal
my attack _at the time_ on dkkoba was forced, out of a need to feel aggressive
i admitted it and then retracted it

Ok, real effort, maybe we are coming around to something.

at the same time as im writing all this it does feel more and more like im heavily confbiasing and tunneling up a storm
a friend told me that the worst thing town players do is take a post and argue that "x,y,z are scum indicative" and they never look at the post again to see if "a,b,c are town indicative"
im gonna do the rest of my reading a bit quieter, see if something really pings me and wait for more input before i decide to continue with this argument

okay i think im ready to come around on a dkkoba townread here actually
im looking at my own argument and keep finding holes in it

Nope! It all disappears. I'll be the first to defend hedging and some backtracking, if only because it might be neccesary so I don't get mislynched, but this feels like such an obvious "lets throw out a real read, and then backtrack!" to show he was giving effort, but also keeps him free from consequences. Clemency had shaded DkKoba earlier so I guess it makes sense he was focusing him hear, but the backtrack felt forced, like he didn't wait for any scrutiny. It's like a hedge by revocation. Oh! And cycle man shows back up, either as another distraction, or undermining the idea he was now focused on the game. Either way, suggests non-townie behavior.

Now, remember the first page vote by clemency I've talked about quite a bit? Here's a take I think is consistent with his actions. He knew he would be approaching scum trying to skate by. Being tied up in an early wagon would hurt him, look like he would be trying, might bring too much scrutiny. He dips out, and covers his tracks with a variety of obfuscatory ideas to try to take a little refugee in audacity then slink out of the public eye.

I don't think I can in good concious recommend a Quick lynch tonight with the info we have. The votato vote, regardless of how sus votato is (and he is), seems premature or an attempt on something related to midway or I, but I think the spot has to be watched closely going forward. Again, this could be overthought, stemming from paranoia related to Clemency's posting habits which stem from out of game issues, but I think there has been a systemic pattern of scummy behaviors that indicate the slot may be scum, and there are very few offsetting town behaviors I can detect.

Spoiler: Votato

Oh boy. Started writing here sure that they would be one of my two main scumreads. Now, I think they have have to be third scum, almost null (pretty close to midway and enomis), because there is a lot of good content that I missed either overnight or by not focusing on them when they posted it. This is by far the slot that can swing the most with any given post. They have made a number of well, lies or major misrepresentations lately, but their early content is good as best I can tell. A couple of contradictions are what I'm playing with as my reason for scumlean.
Another wall of quotes!

155, 157 and 199 are a reasonable first push and effort. This suggests a motivated player, and I'll townlean him on this early exchange

i think scum are apogee and maduisha

you two are the scumpair. its obvious from your posts, your interactions, and your thoughts about other people.

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Again, I have no problem with the content. It could be the case that they picked an easy conversation starter as a mafia for towncred, but I feel that could only be determined with hindsight.

sorta. i explained that already. I think DK is fairly easy to read when under pressure. So I turned up the heat. I wasnt planning on making up scumreads all game, but the thread is completely dead, and apathy is really bad for towns, so I want to keep people active, emotional, and engaged.

Mild towncred point attempt, could be innocent or not.

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Yeah I kinda figured this was a reaction test but I hoped it would generate a few other responses.

I'll elaborate on Ydrasse. Tbh their approach honestly seems kinda like how I try to approach town right now? A little hesitancy to jump forward too hard on any wagon, a mix of questions and reactions, and feels pretty genuine. Seems like Ydrasse sincerely wants content and a measured analysis of it. To the extent I have hesitance, it would be her not seeming to commit to particular ideas super hard, but that applies to me and quite a few other people.

DkKoba I'm not super leaning either way. I agree with Maduisha that he felt more frustrated than anything the last few pages, but I'm less convinced that's necessarily tvt then she is.

Midway I've commented on quite a few times, and I want to reserve further judgement until they post the analysis they promised. I'm hesitant with the fluffposting they have done, but I guess that's not necessarily scummy, although in a vacuum I normally would think it is (other people might have their own experience -- this is my first online game so I'm not super familiar with how much of that is to be expected).

p-edit: a bunch happened while I typed this. I'll look over all of it and post thoughts in a bit

generally id say hesitancy to join a wagon seems more like scum wanting to see which way the wind is blowing before committing. I see the town motivation too since its a newbie game, but I think this game currently suffers from insufficient confidence and aggression from most people (and too much from myself and DkK).

oh, and please call me either he, she, or it. not they.

Interesting that here and in another post there is a mild shade of Ydrasse, I'm not entirely sure how to take that but it stood out.

Hm... I want to unvote because the attitude is good and I'm seeing honesty, but on the other side that readlist reveal makes no sense...

Midway, do you think you can you sell me your Clemency/Votato wagons? Can you expand on the reason for your reads on them or are they just gutpings for now? It's okay if you have nothing.

I feel so damn lost in this game.

VOTE: maduisha this game deserves a good counter-wagon. the people need it. You've picked up on a tiny thing midway did and view it as scum, when it seems like it should pretty clearly be NAI. Your expressions of self-doubt read to me like scum trying to hedge so they can backtrack later.

why is eagerness to get lynched anti-town? i dont think she said shes eager to get lynched. she said shes eager to get wagoned. and getting lynched is not in either alignment's wincon

at this point lots of people seem to think that theres scum in clemency or maduisha. but there arent major wagons on either one. If you really believe something, vote it.

also, im honored to be thought so highly of in the meme. I am indeed scum.

I'm mildly concerned with this exchange, but I can't argue indivual points. I guess the caveat on how Madiusha might not really be mafia in 362 is sensible, because I like when players don't go to far during pushes and moderate to only solid points, but 426 feels like he disassociates too much.

i revived this game from the dead by starting some pressure on some people. Yeah, it was bullshit pressure, but look at all the stuff thats happening. I am also providing reads, asking probing questions, and doing some pretty effective shitposting.

This really seems a towncred post. Not sure what the motivation for town-votato to say this is. I'll admit it could be innocent as votato has faced a lot of pressure the entire time.

Yeah most of those reads are so wishy washy that they hardly count. You aren't doing much to analyze what people said and come to conclusions. And my unvote wasn't intended to reduce pressure from the wagon, just stress from the possibility of a lol hammer. VOTE: maduisha

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

my lynchpool for today is: votato, midway, datisi, maduisha, cle men cy/cy cle men, enomis. thats a really big lynchpool. theyre some not so strong reads. midway im sorta 50-50 on, but he needs to step it up. i could maybe be persuaded about apogee. well i guess i could be persuaded about anyone, in theory.

'

I was really sure this was were the big contradiction was, but I'm less sure. The pivot hard onto two of the 50/50 people he mentions concerns me, although tbh that might just be because I am one.

oh youre right. we got what we were gonna get out of the maduisha wagon at this stage. everyone should get off that wagon for now. i dont buy maduisha as town at all, but theres too much time left in d1 here to lynch yet.

So again, are we locked scumpair or is maduisha a town? Feels like you are going for the best of two wagons.

Spoiler: Ydrasse

Town read.
And to finish it off, the easiest one of the bunch. Good content, cites posts, pushes without tunneling, all around reasonable, sounds genuine. If anyone actually contests this I'll provide specific examples. If scum, trouble inbound. Please don't argue this is me not putting effort into citing, I'm tired after writing this and want an easy one to do.

Spoiler: Tentative ranking from town lock down

Apogee (to me of course, I don't expect anyone else to have me this high)
Ydrasse
Joquiza
DkKoba
Enomis/Midway
Votato*
Maduisha
Clemency/Quick*

Asterisks are the slots I see moving around the most in the next day or two. Votato especially, I feel a more straightforward conversation might help both of us understand the other better.

I really hope this helps assuage some of anyone's worries. I don't expect to be townlocked, but I don't think I should be an early lynch either. I'm rereading this before posting and think I'm probably still hedging too much. I honestly see the best in a lot of behaviors, and went for scumleans on people I felt were questionable. Clemency did end up as my most scumread because I had the hardest time finding townie content by him, but quick is a new variable so even that is hedged now.

Alright. This is a lot of content and hopefully excuses how long it took. I'll hit a few comments that have popped up in the chat before I post this and then do a question sweep later, but I'm kinda wiped and probably won't do any super deep analysis again until tomorrow morning.

you know whats funny is just that this reads as coached now when in comparison with 17

I know how IRL mafia is.


Apogee if you end up being scum, bringing this post back up to light will be your downfall.

[/spoiler]

I really do not follow. This was the first game of online mafia I played in. I did my best to execute a readlist in the style that other people in the game had done and you were asking me for. You called it poor analysis almost immediately afterwords, but said it was indicative of the effort you wanted to see from me. Where is the problem? Is it that you figure I could not produce this kind of content without a scumbuddy writing it?

[Apogee]

Oops sorry forgot multispoilers dont really work here

[Apogee]

Would you believe me if I said I took a quick look through there after you did your coded comparisons to various players in that game in post 1836 (just to learn who arcbell was and who you scumread with the codes).

Honestly yeah there probably is hints of joqiza in my wallpost because I haven't had much of a frame of reference on ISOs before this and his big wall early on kind of set a standard I felt I should meet (remember, 3/4 people tentativly wanted my head depending on how I did there). But I don't think my conclusions are his conclusions, or my process his process.

[Apogee]

In another tab I'm examining votato/joqiza I think there is evidence for that pairing that fits well. Rereading how DkKoba and Joqiza interacted also makes me feel better about DkKoba.

I still want enomis back and I want votato to answer who his lynch pool is damnit.

[Apogee]

Please tell me you have more of a case than his one wall post shows joqiza to a limited degree

[Apogee]

You know this could quite easily be taken as retaliation for me having you as second in my poe...

[Apogee]

And DkKoba, I've been the only person to engage with you in anything approaching good faith today. I'm getting paranoid again. We can discuss the actions of people in this thread or just sling around accusations of who is scummy.

p-edit. I am not scum.

[Apogee]

Well I missed a lot of excitement last night. Didn’t even consider Ydrasse as cop but makes sense in hindsight. And joqiza yikes I honestly didn’t see the scumminess from the EOD action that apparently wiser people did. Looks like it’s 4 townie 1 goon based on the nk now.

Post flip rankings

Most Likely Scumpartners: Votato DkKoba
Possible Partner: Enomis, Me
Almost certainly not: Maduisha

I have myself at possible because well I know I’m not Joqiza's partner but I’d question if no one else considers me because honestly looking at myself I could be convinced we were buddies. I have arguments against it of course (not trying some wack strat here) but it should, just like the other 3 possibilities, be considered.

Votato I’ll talk about below. DkKoba I think has to be a consideration with his “meta townlean” on joqiza and how they have played off each other but I’m not sure he is first in POE. Enomis is a possibility but if I’m reading his D2 right he doesn’t strike me as a likely scum partner for joqiza. 9/10 if we lynch votato and DkKoba I think we POE scum.

ok there it is.

Where is the contradiction? Is it that I say I didn’t see much scumminess in joqiza after hedging on him earlier? Well obviously I had hesitations but as I indicated in the first I was not very convinced by the arguments on joqiza. But I left open hearing a bigger case on him. It’s not a contradiction it’s the acknowledgement I missed tells other people saw more clearly

[Apogee]

Ok here is the big pattern I noticed while rereading Joqiza. Everyone remember how votato/dkkoba/somewhat joqiza scumread midway and I? Remember how midway defended me? Remember how everyone attacked midway for saying, yeah, this stuff was scummy but you are town and called that the mother of all scumpair tells? Oh like Joqiza did:

Bear I read through this post, and I feel like in each of the "post by post" points you basically agree with things I've already said, and say that can be scum, but your overall takeaway is that my case is "too weak" and "focuses too much on RVS stage." I agree that after I cased Apogee he had a potentially town-explanation for every action he's taken, but I don't really take that as word of gospel, I unvoted and asked him for an updated list of reads with more depth to them and a case on Clemency which he had promised me

I think Joqiza does this sort of thing quite a bit with votato:

Spoiler: Joqiza on Votato early game

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

I'm kind of tired because of work so I honestly don't feel like pushing back too much rn but I'd like to know why you think this, I don't feel like it's fair and I disagree that I haven't contributed anything meaningful. Anyway I'll post more tomorrow

Actually your point about me voting is probably fair, I honestly just haven't thought about using my vote like that because in the forum games I've played we usually decide on lynches/pushes before throwing votes up. I get it's kind of different here though.

frankly I don't care whether anyone srs me or not, people in these games or not, my preferred method of towntelling is finding and lynching mafia. Also votatos vote clearly lacked any sort of conviction or backing so I was hoping to pry something more out of him. I think it's funny that no one except u and him have engaged with my slot Koba, I think engaging me isprobably towny because for some reason mafia always tries to avoid engaging with me in these games, that said it's annoying to me when people push on me for dumbass reasons

Alright let's do this, I went through the whole thread again, starting from the top, and I have some thoughts on everyone, here are the notes I've taken. I'll be around for a while on-and off today so please AMA.

Votato

Probably town but still sus in that they constantly start wagons and back off them before any real pressure is applied, their “reaction tests” lack any sort of conviction and any conclusion from them is reached far too easily. Push on Koba was OK but jsyk I think you need way more than that to determine Koba’s alignment. Randomly threw out an apogee/maduisha scumteam without bothering to rr and then immediately caved saying he picked randomly and “gotta generate that content.” By the way, I think it’s funny that as soon as I point out that there’s not enough content for me suddenly there’s like three people grandstanding about getting content, I don’t think that’s even necessarily scum indicative I just hate it lmao. I don’t think votato and midwaybear are a scum team based on their interactions. Voted me with absolutely zero conviction and then immediately unvoted me before I had even responded with anything. Probably still town but the “need to appear active” without contributing to a gamesolve is a red flag. Currently on the maduisha wagon I was waiting to see if they would jump off again but honestly at this point it’s just a behavior pattern and I don’t know how to read into it any further. Light townread

Spoiler: Dodging the votato question

also I want to know if it's worth my time to try to go into the midway vs. votato thing or if we've moved past that cuz I don't really sr either of them but i don't want to probe into the actual arguments unless i have to because they're dense @midwaybear @votato

midwaybear just for you i will read you x votato in the next 24 hours and respond with either my conclusion on your case or an erotic fanfiction

I agree that there is some questionable behavior in the ISO. 1) justifying reads through "VC analysis" -- this is very easily an excuse not to analyze people's behavior. 2) general refusal to provide clarification for reads or follow up on logic, 3) some evidence of flip-flopping on people such as enomis, or at least an inability to express a coherent read

@Quick

Flip-flopping isn't Scummy, it's actually Townie for a game like this.

And I said I would do more work if I make it to D2.

But if these are your reasons, okay, I guess.

Besides, you don't believe MY cases for some God awful reason. Probably because I haven't made a 1,000 word case on someone or because I am not pushing the same people over and over excessively.

I do TR effort yeah.

I think flip-flopping is sometimes NAI but i would not agree it is townie.

i gave you 24hr so you have time to make a 1000 word case too. But I don't need 1000 words. Im still open to a counterwagon

Effort is most NAI, but sometimes it is.

I gave my case within like the first 15 posts or something. Or I just suck at this game and I deserve to be lynched.

Why is votato Town?

I would prefer a wall post, maybe a mini wall post, with posts cited. that is my fetish

votato was townlean in beginning of the game and i stopped reading him and bear. i will read now. but he has been very patient imo.

i will obviously share my conclusions and discuss before i actually hammer

yeah, we know you're a mafia goon.

why did you say mafia goon here? like why specify the role

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

here u r referring to midwaybear and saying that bear is "conf biasing" you which implies he is town, but u say you "just need to convince 6 townies" like if bear is 1 townie and there are 6 other townies that's 7 townies and that only leaves you as scum ???

eh i'm gonna wait for votato to respond to what i asked before i go into things too deeply

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

here u r referring to midwaybear and saying that bear is "conf biasing" you which implies he is town, but u say you "just need to convince 6 townies" like if bear is 1 townie and there are 6 other townies that's 7 townies and that only leaves you as scum ???

hence the 4 part. subtract me and him.

alright tea that makes sense. what about the mafia goon one

Alright I kind of came into this thinking that quick vs votato might be TvT but I kind of FOS quick after this, like I'm just floored by how quickly he jumped onto the "scumslips" and how he basically wanted votato lynched before he could respond. I feel like anyone with any decent amount of experience should know that these sort of statements aren't really alignment indicative, both town and mafia do this kind of weird shit you see genuine certified scumslips very very rarely. and in fact it's funny because if you look in his iso one of the first posts he makes is this, so yah, he is aware.

I have only read about 8% of the game or less fwiw.

how can we take you seriously then? did you see a scumslip or something?

I pretty much never see Scum slips. I am pretty biased against them actually.

anyway fellas i'm basically gonna hammer quick here in a bit i think my mind's pretty made up at this point. i went thru votato and I think he has some decent contributions today. I really like the push on maduisha starting 337, continuing in 478 and 487, kind of ending with 540 and 587. this push is a lot better and more thorough i feel like then what he was doing previously. now to be fair he did do this AFTER i pointed out why his earlier pushes were kind of weak, so he might've just adapted this game, but in any case he's certainly done more for us than quick has done. i feel like his responses to bear's case in 803 and 804 are decent too btw

Spoiler: hard bus

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

Imagine thinking that votato and I are a scumteam and I left my partner on L-1 for 24 HOURS. ON DAY 1 LOL I couldve hammered quick at any time and been done with it but I wanted to give him a chance. Somehow despite posting 366 times he didn't even read the game, i don't regret it and i made the optimal decision with the information i had to work with. quick/votato probably TvT anyway II'm guessing I didn't even have a shot at a correct hammer. maybe should have led a counterwagon but i wasn't liking quick's posts at EoD

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

This is probably one of the worst posts I've seen since I started playing forum mafia so I want to break it down for you line by line.

“so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha” – what is the justification for this analysis? Why is there a scum in the two of us and it can’t be TvT? I’m not even saying I disagree with you but you don’t get to throw out this kind of stuff without any justification

“Leaning towards it being joq” how did you go from being willing to counterwagon maduisha with me to leaning towards it being me? This is a complete 180

“It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill.” and so your conclusion is it was me? Lmao don’t think I missed the missing logical step here which is that “yeah and joq is shit”

“Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing” sure

“. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me.” LMFAO. For the record, the kill should neither kill nor implicate you, it could come from you as scum trying to remove a threat, it could come from scum outside of you trying to frame you, and any evaluation of your slot should use the nightkill as secondary information to your overall body of work this game. Anyone who tries to pivot off the nightkill to justify a position is on my radar rn. Ur making me wish I hammered you

“Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him.” You had four votes on you yesterday

“I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me.” See above

“Actually i think maduisha is on to something here.” you better have a good explanation for this complete 180 on maduisha because last I checked we were on the same page. She is accusing us of being a scumteam btw did you happen to miss that LOL

Seriously does no one find this progression of events sus:

1. Maduisha: I think votato and joqiza are a team, so I'm going to vote joqiza
2. votato: I think Maduisha might be on to something, so I'm going to vote joqiza (?? LOL??)
3. Ydrasse: Maduisha and votato bring up good points, so I'm going to vote joqiza

votato why are you simply voting me without acknowledging that most of Maduisha's read is predicated on you being scum with me? And Ydrasse why did you simply sheep them without pointing out this contradiction?

This is more out of frustration than actual read but VOTE: votato until I get an explanation for the way he's played today

When he dodged the votato question he pretty much picked the two weakest things to push on, and therefore make votato look better coming out. Heading into d2 it's pretty clear they saw bussing necessary to survive.

DkKoba analysis next

[Apogee]

Joqiza on votato is lots of lowkey shade without real pressure or goal of doing anything to the slot.

[Apogee]

I agree actually. Hard part is there is so much to shift through and well there is lots of NAI noise.

p-edit: I want to sleep on it before hammer. I'll intent to hammer midday to evening tomorrow. Votato I would really like to hear your thoughts before this even if we do go through with the lynch on you so if you flip town we have as much info as we can have going into lylo.

[Apogee]

Votato:

I'm going to be honest for a minute and just say that I understand if you are genuinely frustrated or unhappy with the rest of us and I'll be sorry if I hammer you and you are not town. But if you are town, getting info to us that helps us after you flip would be one of the most important things you can do and will be helpful if you see something major the rest of us do not.

p-edit. Koba is probably the lynch if you flip town. I stopped lurking when I got back to my PC today. And I read this.

[Apogee]

I want the rest of the thread to check back in before hammer in case they see something really big I don't, but I think we are pretty close here.

[Apogee]

Why is that? If its you, madiusha and myself alive then I'll vote you and yeah Madiusha would probably lynch me but idk. You, me enomis I figure enomis votes you and idk how my vote falls for sure but there is a chance. If I get NKed idk how enomis/madiusha fall.

p-edit: That was close to what I was thinking as well...

[Apogee]

Yeah that was an obvious typo

[Apogee]

I'm good with holding out for an enomis reread

[Apogee]

Dk there is no reason we can't wait and hear enomis out. It's not like the game is evolving very much until he posts.

If this is just a desire to finish the game one way or another I understand, but we can just take a step back and wait and see what happens with Enomis's post. If he doesn't say anything by the time he promised tomorrow then I will move the game forward.

[Apogee]

DkKoba and Votato: from my POV, would you conclude scum is one of you or the other? If not, why is enomis more scummy?

[Apogee]

As in if I wouldn't conclude the POE is lynching one of you than the other, why not?

[Apogee]

Good god this is a headache. Someone is clearly pocketing someone else or trying to but I have no clue who it is. TBH looks like both Maf and Townies (because only one of you are mafia lol) are trying to get Madiusha and or me to sheep you.

I'm going to reread Joqiza/Enomis interactions one more time because I was pretty confident that those cleared enomis but I suppose in theory it could have been a hard bus on d1. If enomis is clear for me then I'm not sure what the optimal move is.

Consider from my POV: If enomis is clear, and madiusha is clear, then I want DkKoba and votato lynched in the next two days for sure. My job then is threefold:
1) Make sure I am not mislynched
2) Lynch one today and one tommorrow
3) Lynch in the order that optimizes the chance that both are lynched and I am not mislynched.

The problem is 3) leads down a really wifomy road.

And anyways, before I commit to this plan I have to be as sure as possible enomis is not scum which I am inclined to believe but am not fully convinced of yet.

[Apogee]

DkKoba how do you take 790 with Joqiza calling for Enomis (his "hardest scumread") to be lynched d1? I think that and a few of their other d1 interactions would be extreme coming from a scumpair, even one that is experienced and wants to play a gambit.

[Apogee]

Also here are where my thoughts are on votato/joqiza. I'm inclined to think this is still the right lynch today but I'm really not sure anymore.

My main concern is the evolution of joqiza's read on votato over time froom:

light townread with concerns of scummy behavoir -> light townread -> haven't looked at his slot -> was probably town -> votato has done scummy moves at the start of d2 but I still townlean him -> votato OMGUS I'm voting you. That all feels pretty distancy and within the range of scum. I'll look at how votato considered joqiza next.

Votato since this is associative I'm not sure you have a ton of defense on this, and I know parts are beyond your control, so I'm going to look at your takes next and then move on to looking at DkKoba again.

Again, it might not be possible to have happen but I still think my prefered POE is votato/DkKoba. I don't really know how but seems I've fallen (or at least it did until Koba moved onto enomis) into the role of the hammer.

[Apogee]

Votato one thing you could explain is why you've used some really WIFOMY reasons that you seem to conclude flip in your direction a couple times (I.E. midwaybear death and DkKoba fake cop claim, although really I'm most interested in why you thought midway's death cleared you).

[Apogee]

AHHHHH I hate this.

Votato -- if you had to make a case on enomis what is the best and worse reason for lynching them.

This is not the situation I wanted to be in the first game I started

[Apogee]

Dk do you know if joqiza has a finished scum game on EM?

[Apogee]

The more this game goes on the more I just want to sheep Ydrasse from 2283

[Apogee]

Thanks Dk poking around EM gave me a few ideas why you (at least consider it a reasonable claim) that you had a gut townread on joqiza from bias.

[Apogee]

The more this game goes on the more I just want to sheep Ydrasse from 2283

To clarify, its also because I think this is the most likely solve independent of everything

[Apogee]

I really really want to consider enomis clear but I can't quite bring myself to as I go and re-read.

Perhaps other people can chime in: I don't think it is likely that scumbuddies both argue for lynches on the other when there is at least a chance of them going through d1. Is the wrong? Take a look at how the enomis and joqiza wagon developed. My biggest concern is with how joqiza kind of says yup I'm done pushing this slot.

The votato "clear" might be legit but it kind of rings of pocketing. To be very blunt, I am concerned that I have fallen in as the "secondary" lynch for a bunch of people really confident in their first and figure at least one of the people (which from timings would most likely be enomis) sheeped that because they can manipulate NKs to get there. But I'm having a really hard time finding how the Joqiza-Enomis interactions are scumteamy

[Apogee]

Yeah do go reread because Joqiza seems fairly serious IMO

[Apogee]

Sorry I’ll try to look at enomis meta later I really need to search joqiza and enomis post more to figure out if there is any chance this is a scumpair

[Apogee]

Yup I saw that on a reread and it caused hesitation because before that I was ready to clear enomis

[Apogee]

Shrug I was pushed less than I expected for defending joqiza d2 as well...

[Apogee]

Spoiler: Stage 1

Alright let's do this, I went through the whole thread again, starting from the top, and I have some thoughts on everyone, here are the notes I've taken. I'll be around for a while on-and off today so please AMA.

Votato

Probably town but still sus in that they constantly start wagons and back off them before any real pressure is applied, their “reaction tests” lack any sort of conviction and any conclusion from them is reached far too easily. Push on Koba was OK but jsyk I think you need way more than that to determine Koba’s alignment. Randomly threw out an apogee/maduisha scumteam without bothering to rr and then immediately caved saying he picked randomly and “gotta generate that content.” By the way, I think it’s funny that as soon as I point out that there’s not enough content for me suddenly there’s like three people grandstanding about getting content, I don’t think that’s even necessarily scum indicative I just hate it lmao. I don’t think votato and midwaybear are a scum team based on their interactions. Voted me with absolutely zero conviction and then immediately unvoted me before I had even responded with anything. Probably still town but the “need to appear active” without contributing to a gamesolve is a red flag. Currently on the maduisha wagon I was waiting to see if they would jump off again but honestly at this point it’s just a behavior pattern and I don’t know how to read into it any further. Light townread

TL;DR/Summary

The three lynches I have really considered today are Maduisha/Apogee/enomis, and of those three my strong preference is enomis. This is not a reaction test nor a “push for content,” as of rn my intent is to have enomis in the graveyard unless he comes back and truly drops thunder and makes me re-evaluate. I have learned to keep an open mind about these things but rn the urge to death tunnel within me.

To give some space for discussion/re-evaluation, @enomis, what I would want is a read list, and who you would want lynched if it were not you, and why.

If there is a 4th player I would throw into my above lynchlist, it would be votato, simply because he seems more capable as a player and there are certain red flags which I’ve noticed. That said, if he is scum he is playing fairly well IMO and he was the first person outside of Koba to actually take initiative and try to evaluate my slot, even if the attempt was surface-level, in my personal experience this has been strongly strongly town-indicative.

The rest of the players at the table I don’t really want lynched today for reasons I’m already talked about. To be honest, as of rn I am evaluating every single one of my TRs, but I think this is an inter-day thing, I want enomis lynched and if I am alive on Day 2 then I come back and re-think everything based on the information from his flip.

It’s about 2am my time and I have work tomorrow so I’m probably not going to respond to any questions for awhile, but I should be around a bit for my lunch break and tomorrow evening.

VOTE: Enomis

Spoiler: Stage2

also I want to know if it's worth my time to try to go into the midway vs. votato thing or if we've moved past that cuz I don't really sr either of them but i don't want to probe into the actual arguments unless i have to because they're dense @midwaybear @votato

Also, Joqiza has showed up in the thread again, so I want to ask him why did he vote nobody after clearing Apogee several pages ago while claiming to scumread people other than Apogee. Especially considering I was an option by the time.

I'm still very frustrated about that, this is scummy and nobody else seems to care.

Not entirely sure what you're talking about tbh, I've only voted 2 people this game, Apogee and enomis, in both cases to start a wagon on them. There was a period of time where I unvoted Apogee and wasn't voting anyone cuz I was thinking through Apogee's response, I wasn't even thinking about starting a wagon on anyone at that point until I'd thought things through. I don't really understand what the obsession here is with having a vote on a player at all times, I don't find it productive at all, I'm not trying to use my vote to signal my level of scumread i'm trying to use it as a weapon to get someone lynched

I am saying that you voted Apogee, argued with him and ended up unvoting, but before voting Apogee you said you scumread me. You vote Apogee in 376, when my wagon (on your so claimed second scumread!!) already existed from Ydrasse's vote in parked on me in 284 and Votato's vote in 337. When you unvote Apogee in 393, my wagon is still fresh with 2 votes and it even gets more traction with 427 which is Midway's vote.

Your second preferred lynch slot is getting a thick wagon and you decide not to interact? I'm not saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times, but please tell me how do you scumread me for basically all of D1 and then have no interest in pushing me when others agree that I'm scummy. Especially after you've been satisfied by Apogee's response. Honestly, if Votato weren't a liar and an emotional manipulator, I would want your head before his because you are making no sense here and you are deflecting by calling it an obsession. I call it coherence.

i'm just going to respond to this because this is a really weird post, like first of all i don't even recall perfectly but why would the exact mechanical placement of my vote matter. like it feels like you think that at all times i have to be placing my vote on the person i SR the most, and you're trying to catch me in some kind of inconsistency there. i've already explained i think but i just voted apogee because no one was voting him and i wanted him to take my push seriously so i could get a better feel for his slot, then i voted enomis later because i wanted him lynched. i get you guys are super anal about voting but i just wasnt putting that much thought into it. also i dont understand your thought process here, like if i am scum to your town why would i not want to place a vote on your THICC wagon lol. honestly i don't think it's even good that you were run up to L-1 because you softclaimed villager so if ur town u just narrowed down PRs for mafia but no one seems to understand this point.

anyway, why would you think that me not voting you there would be alignment indicative, like what was going through your head that started with "he didn't vote me" and ended with "therefore he is mafia," i want to understand

I agree that there is some questionable behavior in the ISO. 1) justifying reads through "VC analysis" -- this is very easily an excuse not to analyze people's behavior. 2) general refusal to provide clarification for reads or follow up on logic, 3) some evidence of flip-flopping on people such as enomis, or at least an inability to express a coherent read

@Quick

Flip-flopping isn't Scummy, it's actually Townie for a game like this.

And I said I would do more work if I make it to D2.

But if these are your reasons, okay, I guess.

Besides, you don't believe MY cases for some God awful reason. Probably because I haven't made a 1,000 word case on someone or because I am not pushing the same people over and over excessively.

I do TR effort yeah.

I think flip-flopping is sometimes NAI but i would not agree it is townie.

i gave you 24hr so you have time to make a 1000 word case too. But I don't need 1000 words. Im still open to a counterwagon

Effort is most NAI, but sometimes it is.

I gave my case within like the first 15 posts or something. Or I just suck at this game and I deserve to be lynched.

Why is votato Town?

I would prefer a wall post, maybe a mini wall post, with posts cited. that is my fetish

votato was townlean in beginning of the game and i stopped reading him and bear. i will read now. but he has been very patient imo.

i will obviously share my conclusions and discuss before i actually hammer

yeah, we know you're a mafia goon.

why did you say mafia goon here? like why specify the role

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

here u r referring to midwaybear and saying that bear is "conf biasing" you which implies he is town, but u say you "just need to convince 6 townies" like if bear is 1 townie and there are 6 other townies that's 7 townies and that only leaves you as scum ???

eh i'm gonna wait for votato to respond to what i asked before i go into things too deeply

JUST VOTE AND HAMMER HIM
we don't need to argue rn

why do you want me to hammer before he even has the chance to respond?

Alright I kind of came into this thinking that quick vs votato might be TvT but I kind of FOS quick after this, like I'm just floored by how quickly he jumped onto the "scumslips" and how he basically wanted votato lynched before he could respond. I feel like anyone with any decent amount of experience should know that these sort of statements aren't really alignment indicative, both town and mafia do this kind of weird shit you see genuine certified scumslips very very rarely. and in fact it's funny because if you look in his iso one of the first posts he makes is this, so yah, he is aware.

I have only read about 8% of the game or less fwiw.

how can we take you seriously then? did you see a scumslip or something?

I pretty much never see Scum slips. I am pretty biased against them actually.

anyway fellas i'm basically gonna hammer quick here in a bit i think my mind's pretty made up at this point. i went thru votato and I think he has some decent contributions today. I really like the push on maduisha starting 337, continuing in 478 and 487, kind of ending with 540 and 587. this push is a lot better and more thorough i feel like then what he was doing previously. now to be fair he did do this AFTER i pointed out why his earlier pushes were kind of weak, so he might've just adapted this game, but in any case he's certainly done more for us than quick has done. i feel like his responses to bear's case in 803 and 804 are decent too btw

Spoiler: Stage 3

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

Imagine thinking that votato and I are a scumteam and I left my partner on L-1 for 24 HOURS. ON DAY 1 LOL I couldve hammered quick at any time and been done with it but I wanted to give him a chance. Somehow despite posting 366 times he didn't even read the game, i don't regret it and i made the optimal decision with the information i had to work with. quick/votato probably TvT anyway II'm guessing I didn't even have a shot at a correct hammer. maybe should have led a counterwagon but i wasn't liking quick's posts at EoD

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

This is probably one of the worst posts I've seen since I started playing forum mafia so I want to break it down for you line by line.

“so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha” – what is the justification for this analysis? Why is there a scum in the two of us and it can’t be TvT? I’m not even saying I disagree with you but you don’t get to throw out this kind of stuff without any justification

“Leaning towards it being joq” how did you go from being willing to counterwagon maduisha with me to leaning towards it being me? This is a complete 180

“It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill.” and so your conclusion is it was me? Lmao don’t think I missed the missing logical step here which is that “yeah and joq is shit”

“Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing” sure

“. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me.” LMFAO. For the record, the kill should neither kill nor implicate you, it could come from you as scum trying to remove a threat, it could come from scum outside of you trying to frame you, and any evaluation of your slot should use the nightkill as secondary information to your overall body of work this game. Anyone who tries to pivot off the nightkill to justify a position is on my radar rn. Ur making me wish I hammered you

“Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him.” You had four votes on you yesterday

“I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me.” See above

“Actually i think maduisha is on to something here.” you better have a good explanation for this complete 180 on maduisha because last I checked we were on the same page. She is accusing us of being a scumteam btw did you happen to miss that LOL

Seriously does no one find this progression of events sus:

1. Maduisha: I think votato and joqiza are a team, so I'm going to vote joqiza
2. votato: I think Maduisha might be on to something, so I'm going to vote joqiza (?? LOL??)
3. Ydrasse: Maduisha and votato bring up good points, so I'm going to vote joqiza

votato why are you simply voting me without acknowledging that most of Maduisha's read is predicated on you being scum with me? And Ydrasse why did you simply sheep them without pointing out this contradiction?

This is more out of frustration than actual read but VOTE: votato until I get an explanation for the way he's played today

Maduisha: highly sus
Ydrasse: highly sus
votato: highly sus
Apogee: light TR
DkKoba: TR
enomis: don't have a read

I can't evaluate you/Ydrasse/Maduisha rn clearly, obviously at least one of you is town and I'd prefer to just talk things out w everyone so I can understand what is going on. Not all the arguments levelled at me rn are in good faith of that I'm certain

[/quote]

Doing a little reread of Joqiza interactions. No firm conclusion yet expect one of these for enomis and maybe Dk (but Dk/Joqiza was a lot more straightforward i.e. townreads most of the time)

[Apogee]

Ok just because of timezones and when I sleep if I continue holding the hammer I will be hammering probably in the next 12 hours. Wagon's if you have cases on the other its time to resoldify them.

I'm inclined to a votato lynch because a) it resolves DkKoba/Votato endgame, but more importantly b) I really really do not like the Joqiza progression on votato I quoted above. Even on D2 the bussing that would have happened feels like it was all bus to me.

[Apogee]

And I'm aware I've used manipulative tactics to get people to follow me this game, but thats not alignment indicative for me, thats just something that makes me strong as both alignments as I push people to follow me regardless. It helps a lot when in games people generally follow what you're doing. I do get more subdued if my

partner

is more loud but thats about it.

DkKoba literally claim scum here. You are more subdued if your joqiza scum partner is more loud? Got it.

Enomis I don't follow Dk is probably the loudest player in the game...

[Apogee]

Sorry I don't know rmb...

[Apogee]

Like what rmb means

[Apogee]

Oh duh. So just off what I remember from d2 top of my head:

Joqiza lashed out at all three people on his wagon (Madiusha, Enomis, Votato)
DkKoba and I were concerned by Ydrasse's about face and I worried that votato/ydrasse was scumteam
You pushed on joqiza
Votato and Joqiza fought a little in what really feels like a bus/distance to me.
I slept from cop claim to hammer

I'll go review what DkKoba did D2 ig.

[Apogee]

IDK I don't think the DkKoba progression on Joqiza D2 is particularly scummy? I'm inclined to read their thought progression as genuine there. Yeah the DkKoba/Joqiza power wolf tinfoil is real and is a possibility, but it is not the most likely possibility IMO.

I don't really agree with DkKoba's argument against you, but against votato I don't think it flips like you implied above.

p:edit -- 1) I'm not inclined to agree on DkKoba's argument and I think enomis you are less likely to flip wolf than him. But I'm not sure it isn't town motivated, if emotional and occasionally irrational town motivation.

2) votato literally all starting a counterwagon on me will do is convince me to hammer? Koba and Maduisha both have indicated they are not voting for me today. I've approached this day trying to stay as open as possible and not tunnel even though I am 80% sure voting you than DkKoba wins for town.

[Apogee]

By convince me to hammer I mean make only one hammer a legit option because unlike you all I am not hammering myself.

[Apogee]

By that I mean whatever goofy stuff votato/koba were up to with the self votes

[Apogee]

Enomis I've said my prefered solve is votato/DkKoba, but I think votato is more likely to flip red.

[Apogee]

Who votato's?

That's a pretty wifomy reason

[Apogee]

And I literally asked him why

[Apogee]

This is ridiculously stressful why couldn't I have landed cop, outed one maf and then got killed like Ydrasse that would be way simpler just saying.

[Apogee]

Enomis if I lynch DkKoba today I am the lynch tomorrow right?

[Apogee]

If they flipped town.

[Apogee]

Because right now I am really feeling from my own POV I have to go after votato.

I'm honestly giving all three of you pretty close chances to be scum, maybe .4/.3/.2 votato/DkKoba/enomis. But I have a better chance of getting the correct lynch tommorrow if I lynch votato today than the other way around, because I probably die if I target Koba today and am wrong.

If I lynch DkKoba, it is almost certainly Enomis/Votato/myself left. I don't think I have a good chance of a) picking correct and b) convincing the other townie to pick correct.

If I lynch votato, then either I die which means I better hope Madiusha can reevaluate enough to pick accuratly between enomis and DkKoba. If enomis dies (likely) I have absolute confidence in DkKoba being scum and have to hope I can convince Madiusha to vote correctly. If Madiusha dies than we can probably lynch DkKoba and I'd feel good about our chances.

Enomis, this is pretty much to you: I feel that a votato/DkKoba POE is the correct move, and I am open to hammering either wagon if I think there is actually a chance that doing so gets me that POE.

[Apogee]

I've reviewed more and I really really don't think that Joqiza enomis were scumteam based on D1 interactions. My solve is votato/DkKoba and now everything I do is going to maximize my chance of getting that solve through.

[Apogee]

If I am wrong, well I'll take the flak post game but I think there is overwhelming evidence for that solve being the best one to take.

[Apogee]

Actually shit I'm reviewing the scenarios and I'm no longer sure which lynch today gets me that POE more often because so much would depend on how Madiusha reacts to night kills.